in the movie Return, why didn't Malgus/Vindican blow up escape ship?

[Sadishist]

Right before the Fury landed and they came out, why didn't they blow up all the Republic ships in the hangar with the Fury's guns?

[Wolfninjajedi]

Why would they care about ships that aren't even moving? Can't waste time with that. Besides they also had a fleet out there, so they also probably weren't expecting any ship being able to escape. Nico's ship was the only one able to get through. Edited January 2, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi

[GenXCub]

because story

[Sadishist]

Why would they care about ships that aren't even moving? Can't waste time with that. Besides they also had a fleet out there, so they also probably weren't expecting any ship being able to escape. Nico's ship was the only one able to get through.

 

Waste time? They had all the time in the world really. Blow up all the ships in the hangar should be first priority. If they wanted to land to have some fun up close, it could come right after blowing up the ships. It doesn't take a Grand Admiral Thrawn to realize that.

Edited January 3, 2014 by Sadishist

[Osetto]

Because to their knowledge the ships had probably already been destroyed. The station was already overrun with Imperial troops, and the Republic ships on board were scrapped. Even the smuggler's ship had sustained damage, it just happened to be tough enough to fly anyway.

 

The ship carrying Malgus and Vindican was prepared to drop them off the moment they entered the hangar, so they were likely operating under the assumption that it would just be them and their targets, all other complications and distractions dealt with by the time of their arrival. They might not have even noticed the ugly freighter resting amongst the other debris in the hangar.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Waste time? They had all the time in the world really. Blow up all the ships in the hangar should be first priority. If they wanted to land to have some fun up close, it could come right after blowing up the ships. It doesn't take a Grand Admiral Thrawn to realize that.

 

Again...to them it didn't matter, they already had the station surrounded, no Republic ships could have gotten through, Sith troops were already on board the station. So they thought they had everything under control, but they weren't counting on Nico and his freighter.

[Path-x]

It is a plot hole. In a sensible instance, they would just blow up the station. But if they somehow sensed the Jedi on board and wanted to capture them or cut off their escape, then they would surely first blow up the ship in the hangar which was their primary escape point.

[Beniboybling]

Blowing up the ship would have probably blown up the hangar and taken their own ship with it, not sensible.

[Path-x]

Blowing up the ship would have probably blown up the hangar and taken their own ship with it, not sensible.

 

That would make the two Sith achieve their objective in a few seconds, without any real effort. How is that not sensible?

Edited January 4, 2014 by Path-x

[Osetto]

That would make the two Sith achieve their objective in a few seconds, without any real effort. How is that not sensible?

 

Killing themselves was one of their objectives?

 

He's saying the escape ship was deep enough in the hangar that is couldn't be destroyed from the outside by the Fury-class ship, and blowing it up from the inside could have destabilized the hangar/ caused an explosion that ended up destroying their own ship.

 

And on the issue of destroying the entire station from afar, space stations have been shown to be rather sturdy. I mean, in all the space missions in game, the objective is always to cripple them, and all you ever really accomplish is light exterior damage and destroying its fixtures. It could have taken concentrated fire from multiple Dreadnoughts that were better utilized elsewhere.

 

Then again, that's assuming they wanted it destroyed. Maybe they REALLY wanted a direct fight. I mean, this was the Empire revealing itself to the galaxy after being in hiding for centuries. They would get to be the first Sith to kill a Jedi after years and years of preparation. It was a matter of pride, a thing powerful Sith are known for.

 

Lapses in judgement aren't plot holes. Characters are allowed to make mistakes.

Edited January 4, 2014 by Osetto

[Beniboybling]

Killing themselves was one of their objectives?

 

He's saying the escape ship was deep enough in the hangar that is couldn't be destroyed from the outside by the Fury-class ship, and blowing it up from the inside could have destabilized the hangar/ caused an explosion that ended up destroying their own ship.

 

And on the issue of destroying the entire station from afar, space stations have been shown to be rather sturdy. I mean, in all the space missions in game, the objective is always to cripple them, and all you ever really accomplish is light exterior damage and destroying its fixtures. It could have taken concentrated fire from multiple Dreadnoughts that were better utilized elsewhere.

 

Then again, that's assuming they wanted it destroyed. Maybe they REALLY wanted a direct fight. I mean, this was the Empire revealing itself to the galaxy after being in hiding for centuries. They would get to be the first Sith to kill a Jedi after years and years of preparation. It was a matter of pride, a thing powerful Sith are known for.

 

Lapses in judgement aren't plot holes. Characters are allowed to make mistakes.

This.

 

Really we should be asking ourselves "Why did Malgus/Vindican land in the hangar?" The answer is not because they wanted to ensure the Jedi would not escape on the fastest ship in the sector they happened to detain.

 

They were part of the boarding party, and most likely wanted to fight with some Jedi. For that reason blowing up the escape ship would not have been on their mind, and again could have killed the Jedi they wanted to fight themselves and/or destroy themselves and/or compromise the safety of the hangar and in doing so prevent them from what they came to do - capture the space station, in such missions you probably want to keep collateral damage to a minimum.

 

I also agree that characters are fallible, maybe they could have fired on the ship without killing themselves and taken out the strike team in the process. But these guys aren't from the IG-88 series, they see a hangar, they fly in, they land, only then did they likely notice the ship, they see some Jedi and they think "hey let's kill them."

 

P.S. I don't think the Sith wanted the space station destroyed, they deployed boarding parties of more than just Vindican and Malgus, and at the very end Malgus looks on from out of the space station and the ships seem to no longer be firing (if they ever where) - a smart move considering intelligence would have been such a valuable resource.

[Path-x]

Killing themselves was one of their objectives?

 

He's saying the escape ship was deep enough in the hangar that is couldn't be destroyed from the outside by the Fury-class ship, and blowing it up from the inside could have destabilized the hangar/ caused an explosion that ended up destroying their own ship.

 

And on the issue of destroying the entire station from afar, space stations have been shown to be rather sturdy. I mean, in all the space missions in game, the objective is always to cripple them, and all you ever really accomplish is light exterior damage and destroying its fixtures. It could have taken concentrated fire from multiple Dreadnoughts that were better utilized elsewhere.

 

Then again, that's assuming they wanted it destroyed. Maybe they REALLY wanted a direct fight. I mean, this was the Empire revealing itself to the galaxy after being in hiding for centuries. They would get to be the first Sith to kill a Jedi after years and years of preparation. It was a matter of pride, a thing powerful Sith are known for.

 

Lapses in judgement aren't plot holes. Characters are allowed to make mistakes.

 

If their priority was to fight them then they would roll their fury into the hangar, fire a signle blasts at the smuggler's ship brige to disable it (not obliterate it) and then kill the Jedi. But from Malgus' statement at the end it is clear that the main objective was to prevent anyone from escaping and reporting back to the Republic (which on the other hand became the mission of Satele). Or alternatively, pursing thier main goal, they could just blow up the hangar doors from the outside (like Anakin and Obi-Wan did in ROTS), clearly they weren't a shielded since the Sith could enter.

 

The argument is kind of futile anyway. I know why they wrote the script like they did. To make it more interesting for the audience, simple as that.

Edited January 5, 2014 by Path-x

[Rabenschwinge]

Right before the Fury landed and they came out, why didn't they blow up all the Republic ships in the hangar with the Fury's guns?

 

Maybe they had battle droids at the gun controls...

[Beniboybling]

If their priority was to fight them then they would roll their fury into the hangar, fire a signle blasts at the smuggler's ship brige to disable it (not obliterate it) and then kill the Jedi. But from Malgus' statement at the end it is clear that the main objective was to prevent anyone from escaping and reporting back to the Republic (which on the other hand became the mission of Satele). Or alternatively, pursing thier main goal, they could just blow up the hangar doors from the outside (like Anakin and Obi-Wan did in ROTS), clearly they weren't a shielded since the Sith could enter.

 

The argument is kind of futile anyway. I know why they wrote the script like they did. To make it more interesting for the audience, simple as that.

We are starting to develop a rather incredulous scenario here, first remembering that the Fury-class interceptor by its very design is not capable of hovering. Given that they would have had to swoop in the hangar, and, while still moving forward, locate the ship, locate its most vulnerable spot and disable it is a single expertly placed-shot. A shot that may fail to destroy the ship, may miss considering that they are occupied trying not to crash and may blow up the hangar.

 

They would also of course have to be prepared for the presence of multiple vessels, seeing as they would not be aware of the contents of the hangar until they were a few meters from it, meaning more extremely well-placed shots to be fired - one does not simply disable a ship with one-shot fired from the hip - while flying into a hangar bay. Not smart.

 

I don't know if you've ever played Battlefront but its hard enough to land in an enemy hangar let alone fire on their ships before you fly into a wall. Its simply not a feasible tactic. Much better to just land and kill everyone inside.

 

P.S. Anakin and Kenobi did not blow up the hangar doors from the outside, they disabled the shields preventing them from entering which activated a fail-safe, causing blast doors to slam shut over them, doors which could be opened.

[Path-x]

We are starting to develop a rather incredulous scenario here, first remembering that the Fury-class interceptor by its very design is not capable of hovering. Given that they would have had to swoop in the hangar, and, while still moving forward, locate the ship, locate its most vulnerable spot and disable it is a single expertly placed-shot. A shot that may fail to destroy the ship, may miss considering that they are occupied trying not to crash and may blow up the hangar.

 

They would also of course have to be prepared for the presence of multiple vessels, seeing as they would not be aware of the contents of the hangar until they were a few meters from it, meaning more extremely well-placed shots to be fired - one does not simply disable a ship with one-shot fired from the hip - while flying into a hangar bay. Not smart.

 

I don't know if you've ever played Battlefront but its hard enough to land in an enemy hangar let alone fire on their ships before you fly into a wall. Its simply not a feasible tactic. Much better to just land and kill everyone inside.

 

P.S. Anakin and Kenobi did not blow up the hangar doors from the outside, they disabled the shields preventing them from entering which activated a fail-safe, causing blast doors to slam shut over them, doors which could be opened.

 

Examining the film again, I noticed two things. First, Fury could hover because otherwise it couldn't land as it did. Second, the hangar doors seem to be completely destroyed and no forcefield containing the air inside the hangar seem to be present.

 

So let's say that the forcefield is still there. They could do just as Anakin and Obi-Wan did. They could disable the forcefield to cause blast doors to close and keep the air inside the hangar. That would pretty much seal their fate. The door fail-safe system could of course be overridden to reopen them as you pointed out but the controls would be somewhere in some control room. By the time the person (that would sacrifice himself to open them - whoever went to open them could not renter the hangar) reached it, imps would obliterate the station (after all there are 30 Harrowers coming in).

[Beniboybling]

Examining the film again, I noticed two things. First, Fury could hover because otherwise it couldn't land as it did. Second, the hangar doors seem to be completely destroyed and no forcefield containing the air inside the hangar seem to be present.

 

So let's say that the forcefield is still there. They could do just as Anakin and Obi-Wan did. They could disable the forcefield to cause blast doors to close and keep the air inside the hangar. That would pretty much seal their fate. The door fail-safe system could of course be overridden to reopen them as you pointed out but the controls would be somewhere in some control room. By the time the person (that would sacrifice himself to open them - whoever went to open them could not renter the hangar) reached it, imps would obliterate the station (after all there are 30 Harrowers coming in).

That's just the landing gear, I'm not quite sure how it works but I think it uses some kind of air vents, hence those pneumatic sounds you get and air rushing out from under. It wouldn't work for hovering, the craft would just fall.

 

And that of course would not work in space. In order to hover, it would have to have rotatable engines like this.

 

And that's not what happened, hangars have Force fields and magnetic fields, the former prevent anything from entering and the latter just keeps the oxygen in. Anakin and Kenobi disabled the Force field, this didn't cause anything to suck out of the hangar (as you might have noticed) but it did mean they could enter the hangar, so in an attempt to prevent them from entering they closed the blast doors, blast doors which they could later open.

 

And magnetic fields can't be disabled by shooting anything on the exterior as far as I'm aware. Not that they would want to do that anyway considering the would never pass up a chance to fight the Jedi face to face. Like ever.

 

And finally as I stated the Sith didn't intend to destroy but capture the station, else the fleet would have open fired upon it (which it did not) and they would not have deployed boarding parties. They wanted the station intact.

 

Always rememebering that Malgus and Vindican are not robots, and will sometimes just choose the most obvious option i.e. land in the bloody hangar and kill the Jedi for gosh darns sakes.

Edited January 5, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Path-x]

That's just the landing gear, I'm not quite sure how it works but I think it uses some kind of air vents, hence those pneumatic sounds you get and air rushing out from under. It wouldn't work for hovering, the craft would just fall.

 

And that of course would not work in space. In order to hover, it would have to have rotatable engines like this.

 

And that's not what happened, hangars have Force fields and magnetic fields, the former prevent anything from entering and the latter just keeps the oxygen in. Anakin and Kenobi disabled the Force field, this didn't cause anything to suck out of the hangar (as you might have noticed) but it did mean they could enter the hangar, so in an attempt to prevent them from entering they closed the blast doors, blast doors which they could later open.

 

And magnetic fields can't be disabled by shooting anything on the exterior as far as I'm aware. Not that they would want to do that anyway considering the would never pass up a chance to fight the Jedi face to face. Like ever.

 

And finally as I stated the Sith didn't intend to destroy but capture the station, else the fleet would have open fired upon it (which it did not) and they would not have deployed boarding parties. They wanted the station intact.

 

Always rememebering that Malgus and Vindican are not robots, and will sometimes just choose the most obvious option i.e. land in the bloody hangar and kill the Jedi for gosh darns sakes.

 

Please watch Return again. The ship flies into the hangar stops and rotates practically for 180 degrees on a spot while landing. That could not be done by the rear engines, nor by any gear pneumatics. The ship must have some auxiliary engines system to perform such complex hovering manoeuvre.

 

Please also watch ROTS again. When they disable the "whatever" field, the scene explicitly shows how the air is being sucked out while the emergency doors are closing.

 

As for Sith intention of capturing the station, that is a speculation.

Edited January 5, 2014 by Path-x

[Xilizhra]

Almost all starships have repulsorlifts that let them fly in atmosphere, which is accomplished via hovering; the main engine doesn't really work well in atmosphere. So, I'm almost certain the Fury can hover.

 

I will also say, however, that it seems quite probable that the Sith would rather capture the station than destroy it, especially since the ships at the end seem to be circling it protectively rather than firing on it.

[Joet]

Subconsciously, I believe, they were so anxious to engage the Jedi after the long deception that neither had the forethought to blast the ship.

[Beniboybling]

Please watch Return again. The ship flies into the hangar stops and rotates practically for 180 degrees on a spot while landing. That could not be done by the rear engines, nor by any gear pneumatics. The ship must have some auxiliary engines system to perform such complex hovering manoeuvre.

 

Please also watch ROTS again. When they disable the "whatever" field, the scene explicitly shows how the air is being sucked out while the emergency doors are closing.

 

As for Sith intention of capturing the station, that is a speculation.

1. I hadn't consider the possibility of repulsorlifts, which is probably what we are seeing here, however this would not work in outer space nor does it remove the problems of disabling the ship in a single perfect shot, keeping the hangar intact, not killing the Jedi and simply human error. So really we are back to square one.
    
    
   
2. I'd assume that its a case of passive and aggressive shielding, like with planetary shields, an aggressive energy field would keep in oxygen and stop enemy craft but a passive one would only keep in oxegen. And considering everyone in the hangar has not been sucked into space and the absence of a blue glow I'd assume it was passive. Nor would it be easy to deactivate as quite clearly the area has been bashed up already. That and it would prevent the Sith from entering the space station and being the first Sith to kill Jedi in centuries.
   

 

I strongly disagree, please explain to me why boarding parties entered the space station and as quite clearly demonstrated the Sith fleet failed to fire on the space station. Why in hell would Malgus and Vindican board a space station that was in the process of being blow apart and why would Malgus just stare out the window while they did it?

 

All in all I think the opposition have demonstrated quite clearly that to uphold this supposed plot hole we have to make baseless assumptions and generally absurd leaps in logic when the solution is quite patently obvious.

[Xilizhra]

1. I hadn't consider the possibility of repulsorlifts, which is probably what we are seeing here, however this would not work in outer space nor does it remove the problems of disabling the ship in a single perfect shot, keeping the hangar intact, not killing the Jedi and simply human error. So really we are back to square one.
    
    
   
2. I'd assume that its a case of passive and aggressive shielding, like with planetary shields, an aggressive energy field would keep in oxygen and stop enemy craft but a passive one would only keep in oxegen. And considering everyone in the hangar has not been sucked into space and the absence of a blue glow I'd assume it was passive. Nor would it be easy to deactivate as quite clearly the area has been bashed up already. That and it would prevent the Sith from entering the space station and being the first Sith to kill Jedi in centuries.
   

 

I strongly disagree, please explain to me why boarding parties entered the space station and as quite clearly demonstrated the Sith fleet failed to fire on the space station. Why in hell would Malgus and Vindican board a space station that was in the process of being blow apart and why would Malgus just stare out the window while they did it?

 

All in all I think the opposition have demonstrated quite clearly that to uphold this supposed plot hole we have to make baseless assumptions and generally absurd leaps in logic when the solution is quite patently obvious.

Ships can brake in space, otherwise they couldn't do anything except accelerate in a vacuum (as inertia would keep it going forever at the same speed if the engines just stopped). All it'd need to do is come to a dead stop, and that would be de facto "hovering" in space.

 

I otherwise agree with you.

[JattaGin]

From the first time I watched the clip, I was under the impression that the Sith wanted to let someone escape so that the message would be spread that they are back. I'm fairly sure they could have stopped the fleeing ship easily - if they would have just wanted.

 

But think about it: a survivor of the attack telling the horrible story of the Sith's return would get much more attention and cause much more fear than a holo transmission stating "guess who's back". Also, it is so much meaner to not kill the apprentice but make her watch her master's death and then cope with it for the rest of her life.

 

Well, that is my personal explanation. And I quite like it.

[Sadishist]

If you played GSF, you'd know that every ship can brake in space and rotate any direction. Edited January 8, 2014 by Sadishist

[Beniboybling]

Ships can brake in space, otherwise they couldn't do anything except accelerate in a vacuum (as inertia would keep it going forever at the same speed if the engines just stopped). All it'd need to do is come to a dead stop, and that would be de facto "hovering" in space.

 

I otherwise agree with you.

Ha, that's a point. Now that probably is an actual plot hole unless I'm missing some way in which that would be possible without some kind of rotatable engines or something...