What Gunships and the Flashfire have in common...

[Verain]

Consider this going forward:

 

There is a set of minor components:

 

Armor

Capacitor

Magazine

Reactor

Sensors

Thruster

 

 

The type 1 scout- Novadive- doesn't have a Magazine or a Reactor.

The type 2 scout- Flashfire or the Cartel Coin one- doesn't have a Magazine or Sensors.

The type 1 Strike fighter- Star Guard- gives up Armor and Sensors.

The type 2 Strike fighter- Pike- Gives up Reactor and Sensors.

The Gunship gives up Capacitor and Thruster.

 

This means that only the Flashfire and the Gunship have both Armor and Reactor.

 

Armor contains boosts like "20% evasion". Capacitor contains boosts like "24% extra shield power". These are not trivial boosts, and they multiply together.

 

Now, the gunship is meant to be tough, because he sucks in a dog fight. Good weapons, good shield, good hull, but facing BFE. It makes sense for him, and the Capacitor component is pretty useless, while the Thruster component would probably make him too good at his weakness.

 

But the Flashfire having both is... odd, right? The type 1 strike gives up the armor, and the type 2 strike gives up the shield boosting component (reactor).

 

 

 

 

Anyway, food for thought.

 

EDIT: It is worth pointing out that the "Magazine" component is probably the weakest- you have to be in a dogfight with sustained shooting to benefit from it, instead of the more typical thing where you are off target much of the time.

Edited December 24, 2013 by Verain

[Helig]

Might want to review the evasion/shield bonuses. 10%, not 20, fully upgraded.

 

Also, Scout baseline shields are paper-thin, Gunship baseline shields are thick - the bonuses are scaled accordingly. Scout hulls are also wet paper. Not even taking into account the combat range of the ships.

 

Large reactor isn't very efficient on a Flashfire. You still get 1-shot by upgraded full-charge slugs with Bypass. One of the reasons I prefer Turbo. Works very well with Distortion shields.

 

One thing, which may have not been directly stated, I do agree with - Strike fighters need stronger defenses.

 

The Magazine component is good for sustained fire - especially when firing full-charge railgun shots left and right, and holding full charge a little for a precise shot.

Edited December 24, 2013 by Helig

[Resipsal]

But the Flashfire having both is... odd, right? The type 1 strike gives up the armor, and the type 2 strike gives up the shield boosting component (reactor).

 

Not only does the Flashfire get arguably the best 4 minor components for combat, but it also has the "system" major component slot rather than the weapon switches that the strikers get.

[SBR_QuorTek]

Not only does the Flashfire get arguably the best 4 minor components for combat, but it also has the "system" major component slot rather than the weapon switches that the strikers get.

 

Don't see the issue really, I mean the striker has free choice of weapon type and also the buff from systems is only temporare for scouts, and has to be used strategic.. taking down a gunship... good line up hit it kill something.. where as the striker has more sustained firepower all the time.

 

Instead of waging war it would be more nice to see the striker being able to use both its guns at the same time instead of having to chose between them, would solve most of the issues really.. like click button one time second gun is active, 2 times both guns can be used at same time when hitting the trigger, 3 times you are back to just using primary gun again.

 

Yes going all out with using both primary and secondary gun at same time would deplete the energy fast though, but also it would devestate anything that get hit by it for good.

[Lymain]

I'd say Magazine and Sensors are currently the two weakest minor components. Sensors would be decent except that 1) most of my teammates/opponents apparently don't even look at their map, and 2) I believe everyone can see at least 15km regardless of how much sensor range and dampening people are using. Edited December 24, 2013 by Lymain

[ToMyMa]

Don't see the issue really, I mean the striker has free choice of weapon type and also the buff from systems is only temporare for scouts, and has to be used strategic.. taking down a gunship... good line up hit it kill something.. where as the striker has more sustained firepower all the time.

 

Instead of waging war it would be more nice to see the striker being able to use both its guns at the same time instead of having to chose between them, would solve most of the issues really.. like click button one time second gun is active, 2 times both guns can be used at same time when hitting the trigger, 3 times you are back to just using primary gun again.

 

Yes going all out with using both primary and secondary gun at same time would deplete the energy fast though, but also it would devestate anything that get hit by it for good.

 

That's be OP as hell... Could just annihilate anything faster than a Flashfire with burst lasers and Bypass (which is 2-3 seconds if you're lucky)

[mr_sim]

We can't raise striker defenses without throwing too many other things out of balance. If you've ever tried striker vs striker it takes plenty of time to burn the other striker out.

 

The unbalanced game play is in scout vs striker (unbalanced because Scouts are preforming too well multirole) and to a lesser degree GS vs strikers.

 

Solution is less shield pen all around.

 

And less bust on scouts and less(percentage) defenseupgrades on scouts.

 

Currently striker vs striker is excellently balanced.

[Ramalina]

I don't believe that strikers need stronger defense. Scouts are better at running, gunships are better at hiding, but if you have the right upgrades strikers can take a lot of hits while staying in the fight.

 

Where strikers are perhaps somewhat weak is in burst damage, which is what typically achieves kills in MMO style combat mechanics.

 

I'm not entirely sure how much this goes away at max upgrade levels. Strikers don't have a lot of burst low in their upgrade trees, so I've been gearing for endurance dogfighting which doesn't do much for damage output. Once I've got my Star Guard and Pike mastered I'll start playing with alternate builds and see if burst damage builds are a) even possible, b) if possible are viable or give up too much in other areas to be workable.

[Verain]

Might want to review the evasion/shield bonuses. 10%, not 20, fully upgraded.

 

Yes, though the point remains the same.

 

Also, Scout baseline shields are paper-thin, Gunship baseline shields are thick - the bonuses are scaled accordingly.

 

This is a common misconception. The baseline scouts all have distortion field, so their "baseline" lists as 1040. It's really like 1485 to the gunship's 1870. When both have the distortion field (which OF COURSE they do) it's 1040 versus 1360. Hardly "paper thin" versus "thick". Most importantly, it's a lot harder to get a shot off on a scout than a gunship, so it's not like "gunships scale better" - the "scaling" on a scout is their evasiveness. Aka, 100 shield on a scout is worth more than 100 shield on a gunship or strike fighter, which is why all the bonuses are in percents.

 

The point is that both of these ships get to upgrade this value, whereas one strike fighter does (the one who cannot upgrade his evasion), and neither does the lesser complained about novadive.

 

 

Scout hulls are also wet paper. Not even taking into account the combat range of the ships.

 

Is the Scout's range 30 clicks because they can close that so fast?

 

My point is that the two most complained about ships both have two scaling defensive upgrades- one for their armor (which generally becomes evasion percent) and one for their shield (which can very, but is generally thickness). While strike A has the shield upgrade and strike B has the hull upgrade.

 

Large reactor isn't very efficient on a Flashfire. You still get 1-shot by upgraded full-charge slugs with Bypass.

 

Who cares? First, that's not the only threat in space. Second, bypass, while OP, isn't up all the time. Third, you are pretty hard to hit, and gunships still have to hit you. Third, slug is probably overpowered a bit as well. Saying "my defenses don't matter because this one undefendable combo exists" is ludicrous. Of course they matter. Is your enemy team all fully upgraded gunships, or do you spend most of your winning matches chasing down scouts and strike fighters? If you have ever survived a railgun attack- and remember, with upgraded light armor you DO have a 10% chance to dodge even the "full upgraded fully charged slug with bypass active"- then you are benefiting from both those components.

 

One of the reasons I prefer Turbo. Works very well with Distortion shields.

 

Turbo reactor is fine. All three reactors offer something. A gunship would probably go with the large reactor, as they often take a gank and then blow cooldowns to evade, while a scout will often have moments on and moments off of being targeted. The point is that if you are a strike, you have to choose between having a shield upgrade and having an armor upgrade, but a type B scout doesn't have to make that call (and neither does a gunship).

 

We can't raise striker defenses without throwing too many other things out of balance. If you've ever tried striker vs striker it takes plenty of time to burn the other striker out.

 

So? It's not Strike Duel, it's Galactic Starfighter. Our map is dominion. As any ship I can survive versus another ship FOREVER by playing humpysat, and strike fighter versus strike fighter is mostly, anything one can do, the other can counter. It's not like such a fight would NEVER resolve, but you would expect that it would take longer than the scout versu scout battles, given the greater offense and lesser defense of the scout.

 

Solution is less shield pen all around.

 

I think shield pen in general is ok. I think bypass is overtuned. Shield pen on most moves, slug railgun included, is good.

 

I don't believe that strikers need stronger defense. Scouts are better at running, gunships are better at hiding, but if you have the right upgrades strikers can take a lot of hits while staying in the fight.

 

Are you saying it would be overpowered? That people would complain about them in the forums? This thread is mostly to point out that there are only two of the five ship types that have both the shield and the armor upgrade component, and all anyone does is complain about them. Ostensibly this is because of the flashy tricks- Adrenaline Rush on the scout, really big hits from the gunships. But maybe this subtle difference is a bit more important that it looks?

 

So, pretend that they launch a strike type C. It gives up "magazine" but has both shield and armor. Would you play it? Would think think it would be overpowered?

Edited December 25, 2013 by Verain

[Svarthrafn]

When I clicked on this topic, I thought OP was going to say something along the lines of:

 

"Too many of them in one place ruins the match for every other ship class."

 

Because that has certainly been my experience.

[Verain]

For some reason I never see enough gunships. Enough would, you would expect, be 4 in a 12 player or 2-3 in an 8 player. I normally see 1-2 max ever, and frequently I see 0 gunships, despite their power.

 

Flashfire/Sting, however, are the Zergling of this game :/

[Ramalina]

Are you saying it would be overpowered? That people would complain about them in the forums? This thread is mostly to point out that there are only two of the five ship types that have both the shield and the armor upgrade component, and all anyone does is complain about them. Ostensibly this is because of the flashy tricks- Adrenaline Rush on the scout, really big hits from the gunships. But maybe this subtle difference is a bit more important that it looks?

 

So, pretend that they launch a strike type C. It gives up "magazine" but has both shield and armor. Would you play it? Would think think it would be overpowered?

 

I'm not saying it would be overpowered, but given that I tend to prefer flying strikers my impartiality in that regard could be questioned.

 

If they launched a Striker type C, with shields and armor I would feel that I would have rather had a Striker D with enhanced burst damage. Maybe the defense boost would be good enough to switch crew and trade Hydrospanner for a damage ability, and maybe that would be enough extra burst, but I'd probably rather see damage enhancement in the starship's systems. I feel no lack of defense in a Strike Fighter, and no lack of ability to dish out sustained damage. I do feel that it is much more difficult to cram enough damage into a short window to get a kill and prevent recovery via fleeing to recharge/repair compared to the burst damage offered in scouts and gunships.

 

Still, this may be a matter of how the upgrade trees are built and not having all options mastered on a single strike fighter yet. If it's just a matter of unlocking the right crew combination and having all systems mastered so you have the benefits that come later in the upgrade series maybe striker burst is fine.

 

I'm curious to see what the survivability vs burst tradeoff will be in terms of having fully upgraded primary weapons and then giving up Hydrospanner for either Bypass or Concentrated Fire. Then play with damage vs frequency capacitors in that scenario.

 

In one sense strikers do have excellent burst, in that the heavier missiles do a lot of hull damage, and when it comes to burst damage for kills hull damage is what really counts. The problem is that landing missiles with narrow arcs of fire, long lock on times and , long flight times is very difficult in the current GS environment. If Proton Torps had the lock on time of upgraded concussion missiles and a boost in flight speed striker burst damage would probably be either ok or somewhat overtuned. Overtuned most likely.

Edited December 25, 2013 by Ramalina

[Kuciwalker]

Evasion is currently far too powerful and results in incredibly durable scouts - as a very rough first approximation you can estimate someone's health pool as (hull + shields) / (1 - evasion). I suspect the correct answer to this may be to just ditch the 15% evasion from distortion shield. That would devalue evasion across the board (because of the additive nature of the stat).

[Ramalina]

For some reason I never see enough gunships. Enough would, you would expect, be 4 in a 12 player or 2-3 in an 8 player. I normally see 1-2 max ever, and frequently I see 0 gunships, despite their power.

 

Flashfire/Sting, however, are the Zergling of this game :/

 

I wouldn't go by an arithmetic mean for ideal team composition. It's role based. In the same way you don't want 4 tanks, 4 healers, and 4 dps in a raid, or a fighter wing made of 12 AWACS, 12 refuelers, and 12 fighter jets.

 

In a team environment you'd want something like 2 recon scouts, 0-6 gunships depending on team playstyle, and the rest either interceptor scouts or strike fighters.