Just buff the strike fighter.

[Kaivers]

I believe scouts max out at 41% passive evasion.

 

Base evasion 10%

Distortion field 15%

Light armor 10%

Companion 6%

 

You also forgot that there is a companion with a 6% buff to passive accuracy but that can hardly be considered an "accuracy build" since it isn't even a 1:2 accuracy:evasion ratio and even so doesn't change the fact that you're right that accuracy isn't constant after factoring in range, tracking penalties etc.

 

Realistically for strikers there is no "accuracy build" since buffs to accuracy are entirely dependent on crew (IMO crew should not be essential or the only way to create a counter build; it would be crazy if the only way to create a counter build to damage reduction was with crew for example).

 

But anyway except for those number differences I think you're entirely correct in your assessment.

 

Thanks for responding.

 

The base (zero upgrades) Nova Dive in my hangar has 20% Evasion, thats with 6% from the Crew Member's response tuning. The base Flashfire has 31% evasion.

 

Wow, if I'm getting this right its actually much higher. The base from Distortion is 15%. The tier one upgrade provides an additional 10%!

 

NovaDive with Stacked Evasion

Base evasion 14%

Distortion field 25%

Light armor 10%

Companion 6%

 

So the low end is actually 55% evasion and the high end is 66%! Can anyone else confirm this?

 

When the ability is activated its 55% + 65% (120%) for 3 seconds!

Edited January 29, 2014 by Kaivers

[Kain_Turinbar]

Make that 6 seconds.

 

Well, at least I do on the final tier. Its called "laugh at bad gunships who don't use ion rail gun".

 

I just don't like the idea of burning my shield cooldown to break a missile lock when I prefer to use it as "god mode".

Edited January 29, 2014 by Kain_Turinbar

[Kaivers]

Please correct me if I'm wrong but this would mean that when I fire my Quads at a one of these Evasion build Scouts from mid range I only have a 29% (I miss 71% of my shots) chance of hitting them? This doesn't even include tracking penalties!

 

Edit: And if I fire with my Quads at close range I only have a 44% chance (I miss 56% of my shots) ...if the Scout pops distortion I have a 0% chance for 3-6 seconds.

Edited January 29, 2014 by Kaivers

[Gavin_Kelvar]

Thanks for responding.

 

The base (zero upgrades) Nova Dive in my hangar has 20% Evasion, thats with 6% from the Crew Member's response tuning. The base Flashfire has 31% evasion.

 

Wow, if I'm getting this right its actually much higher. The base from Distortion is 15%. The tier one upgrade provides an additional 10%!

 

NovaDive with Stacked Evasion

Base evasion 14%

Distortion field 25%

Light armor 10%

Companion 6%

 

So the low end is actually 55% evasion and the high end is 66%! Can anyone else confirm this?

 

When the ability is activated its 55% + 65% (120%) for 3 seconds!

 

Welcome.

 

I haven't leveled any of my scout's out completely yet so I can't confirm your numbers in game.

 

Looking at Dulfy though the default load of a Nova includes light weight armor that gives 4% evasion (upgrades add an addition 6% for a total of 10% when fully upgraded) and the default companion has 6% evasion. So looking at Nova with default components/crew you have a total of 20% evasion, 10% evasion coming from components/crew and 10% as a base stat. Again it's possible the build calc is screwy.

 

Also while distortion field's first upgrade adds 10% I believe it only applies it to the active ability, not the passive buff. So when using the active ability it would give a 75% extra evasion on top of your passive. Which doesn't ultimately change the fact that you've basically got a "toggle god mode on" button that lasts for 3-6 seconds.

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't disagree with your overall analysis of evasion or how it impacts strikers. It always struck me as very screwy that against an enemy with no evasion my weapon could have close to 100% accuracy but against an maxed passive evasion build in the exact same scenario I'll be closer to 50% accuracy.

Edited January 29, 2014 by Gavin_Kelvar

[Armonddd]

Please correct me if I'm wrong but this would mean that when I fire my Quads at a one of these Evasion build Scouts from mid range I only have a 29% (I miss 71% of my shots) chance of hitting them? This doesn't even include tracking penalties!

 

Edit: And if I fire with my Quads at close range I only have a 44% chance (I miss 56% of my shots) ...if the Scout pops distortion I have a 0% chance for 3-6 seconds.

 

At long range, quads have a base accuracy of 85%. An evasion build scout has 41% evasion. Your hit chance is thus (85 - 41 = ) 44%. Pinpointing increases this to 50%.

 

That is, of course, assuming accuracy and evasion work similarly to the ground game. We don't know that for sure, though.

[JadedJasper]

I'm becoming increasingly convinced via testing that Evasion is a separate roll from Accuracy -- i.e. chance to hit = accuracy * (1 - evasion).

 

Nothing rigorous enough for a proof (as I don't know for certain what my targets have upgraded), but the edge cases are telling, e.g. +accuracy not getting even a few shots through head on against maxed evasion, -evasion increasing damage substantially on a 0' angle shot while +accuracy doesn't help, etc. In Your Sights definitely has a different impact than Wingman.

 

And yeah, the numbers for Evasion are 41% base with a maxed out Scout, +75% with Distortion Field active. There are a few other modifiers (e.g. Targeting Telemetry), but that's the most common case.

[Zoom_VI]

Scouts top out at 41% passive evasion, it is not currently possible under any circumstances to exceed 41% evasion. I sometimes wonder if accuracy doesn't work quite like the ground game since I have shot at a ton of scouts, and when I have my crosshairs lined up I am hitting quite a bit better than 50%.

 

For the record 2.6 is bringing bombers and evasion means nothing to bombers. It is also bringing two new AoE control weapons, both of which are unaffected by evasion.

[Armonddd]

Nothing rigorous enough for a proof (as I don't know for certain what my targets have upgraded)

 

If you have a teamspeak or something, I could roll a strike and help out with this. Send me a mail and we'll see how schedules work.

[Zharik]

Scouts top out at 41% passive evasion, it is not currently possible under any circumstances to exceed 41% evasion. I sometimes wonder if accuracy doesn't work quite like the ground game since I have shot at a ton of scouts, and when I have my crosshairs lined up I am hitting quite a bit better than 50%.

 

For the record 2.6 is bringing bombers and evasion means nothing to bombers. It is also bringing two new AoE control weapons, both of which are unaffected by evasion.

 

Most guns have an accuracy OVER 100% under ideal conditions. 116% - 41% = 75%

 

There are also boosts to your accuracy with certain components, such as targeting telemetry (and they ALSO reduce the target's evasion.) And there are sensor probes that -10% target's evasion...

[Gavin_Kelvar]

Most guns have an accuracy OVER 100% under ideal conditions. 116% - 41% = 75%

 

That's assuming a perfect dead center shot with no tracking penalty. In practice that's going to be almost impossible to do regularly so you'll have less than 75% accuracy normally.

 

There are also boosts to your accuracy with certain components, such as targeting telemetry (and they ALSO reduce the target's evasion.) And there are sensor probes that -10% target's evasion...

 

Components which strikers can't even equip so the buffs to accuracy they provide is moot. Nor should relying on allies enter into the equation because if strikers can't adequately counter evasion in a 1 v 1 then that in itself means it's too powerful. Allies should be like crew providing supplemental buffs not the primary (or only) means of creating a counter build to something.

[Zharik]

That's assuming a perfect dead center shot with no tracking penalty. In practice that's going to be almost impossible to do regularly so you'll have less than 75% accuracy normally.

 

 

 

Components which strikers can't even equip so the buffs to accuracy they provide is moot. Nor should relying on allies enter into the equation because if strikers can't adequately counter evasion in a 1 v 1 then that in itself means it's too powerful. Allies should be like crew providing supplemental buffs not the primary (or only) means of creating a counter build to something.

 

2 things...

1. Ideal conditions... look it up

2. If you look at the person I was responding to it was to help explain his "over 50% hit rate vs scouts"

[Gavin_Kelvar]

2 things...

1. Ideal conditions... look it up

2. If you look at the person I was responding to it was to help explain his "over 50% hit rate vs scouts"

 

apologies. It's late and I guess I'm getting a little bleary eyed and misunderstood.

[Kaivers]

How are you guys arriving at 41% max? I noticed that Lightweight armor gives 4% base (opposed to 10% base) and 6% via upgrades (Providing a total 10% with upgrades) but in that case the numbers add up to 39% min.

 

As per Dulfy the passive evasion for a base NovaDive is 14%. The unmodified NovaDive in my hangar has 20% (this includes 6% from crew, 20 - 6 =14).

 

Likewise as per Dulfy base passive evasion is 25% for a Flashfire, the unmodified Flashfire in my hangar has 31% (this also includes 6% from crew, 25 + 6 = 31)

 

So if you add just the base stack-able passive evasion from Distortion (15%) and Lightweight Armor (4%), you end up with minimum of 39% for the NovaDive and a minimum of 50% for the Flashfire.

 

Lightweight armor provides an additional passive 6% via Tier 1-3 upgrades (you are correct on the tier 1 upgrade for distortion), so you end up with a maximum 45% Passive Evasion for the NovaDive and a maximum 56% for the Flashfire.

 

So using Quads at mid range against a stacked out NovaDive would give me a 50% chance hit/miss. Against a Flashfire it would give me 39% chance of landing a hit (this does not include other penalties).

 

I noticed that if you mouse over the ship stats under components on the left of your hangar it provides detail not included in the description section of components on the right.

 

Again, please correct me if I'm wrong!

Edited January 29, 2014 by Kaivers

[Zharik]

How are you guys arriving at 41% max? I noticed that Lightweight armor gives 4% base (opposed to 10% base) and 6% via upgrades (Providing a total 10% with upgrades) but in that case the numbers add up to 39% min.

 

As per Dulfy the passive evasion for a base NovaDive is 14%. The unmodified NovaDive in my hangar has 20% (this includes 6% from crew, 20 - 6 =14).

 

Likewise as per Dulfy base passive evasion is 25% for a Flashfire, the unmodified Flashfire in my hangar has 31% (this also includes 6% from crew, 25 + 6 = 31)

 

So if you add just the base stack-able passive evasion from Distortion (15%) and Lightweight Armor (4%), you end up with minimum of 39% for the NovaDive and a minimum of 50% for the Flashfire.

 

Lightweight armor provides an additional passive 6% via Tier 1-3 upgrades (you are correct on the tier 1 upgrade for distortion), so you end up with a minimum 45% Passive Evasion for the NovaDive and a minimum 56% for the Flashfire.

 

So using Quads at minimum range against a stacked out NovaDive would give me a 50% chance hit/miss. Against a Flashfire it would give me 39% chance of landing a hit (this does not include other penalties).

 

I noticed that if you mouse over the ship stats under components on the left of your hangar it provides detail not included in the description section of components on the right.

 

Again, please correct me if I'm wrong!

 

Scout base is 10%, Fully upgraded light armor is 10%, distortion field is 15%, crew member is 6%.

[Zharik]

apologies. It's late and I guess I'm getting a little bleary eyed and misunderstood.

 

'preciate that...

[Kaivers]

Scout base is 10%, Fully upgraded light armor is 10%, distortion field is 15%, crew member is 6%.

 

How are you arriving at 10% base when both Dulfy and the hangar are higher?

 

Note: "Quads at Minimum range" should be "Quads at mid range".

[Zharik]

How are you arriving at 10% base when both Dulfy and the hangar are higher?

 

Note: "Quads at Minimum range" should be "Quads at mid range".

 

The hangar adds it all up for you... when you are all done, it will say 41% evasion in the ship stats. You already noted that the 20% included your crew member, why don't you think that it is adding your armor/distortion field?

 

Oh and Dulfy is kinda like a SWTOR for Dummies book. Most of their information is accurate, but a lot of things only hit the basics.

[Kaivers]

The hangar adds it all up for you... when you are all done, it will say 41% evasion in the ship stats. You already noted that the 20% included your crew member, why don't you think that it is adding your armor/distortion field?

 

Oh and Dulfy is kinda like a SWTOR for Dummies book. Most of their information is accurate, but a lot of things only hit the basics.

 

Ah you are correct! Thank you! I was not including Lightweight as the default for the Nova Dive and Distortion as the default for the Flashfire.

 

So Dulfy is wrong, it should say 31% as the default base for the Flashfire and 20% as the default base for the NovaDive.

Edited January 29, 2014 by Kaivers

[Zharik]

Ah you are correct! Thank you! I was not including Lightweight as the default for the Nova Dive and Distortion as the default for the Flashfire.

 

So Dulfy is wrong, it should say 31% as the default base for the Flashfire and 20% as the default base for the NovaDive.

 

The "base" for a scout is 10%, if you decided to change the armor/shields/crew to something other than lightweight/distortion field/evasion crew member, you could see its 10% base.

[Kaivers]

The "base" for a scout is 10%, if you decided to change the armor/shields/crew to something other than lightweight/distortion field/evasion crew member, you could see its 10% base.

 

Yeah Dulfy almost had me wanting to stop playing GSF....almost.

 

The 41% is still bad though considering the lack of a viable accuracy build for Strikers. It means using Quads I will land only 54% of my shots from mid range not including other penalties (which increase substantially given the speed and maneuverability of Scouts). This doesn't make sense if the Striker is supposed to be a mid range specialist.

[Altheran]

How are you arriving at 10% base when both Dulfy and the hangar are higher?

 

That's because it is equipped by default with Light Aromor giving an extra 4%. If you change it to remove any evasion, you'll see 10%.

 

EDIt : did not see it was actually answered just before.

Edited January 29, 2014 by Altheran

[Kaivers]

FACT:

 

1. Passive Accuracy is not constant (range dependant)
    
   
2. Ion Cannon is the only weapon available to Type 1 Strikers that has the option to increase passive accuracy (Tier 1 Upgrade) and this accuracy is still skill dependant (range) meaning it is not constant.
    
   
3. Accuracy benefits from improvements to tracking, rate of fire and range are all skill dependant i.e. requires active involvement from player.
   

 

 

Questions:

1. The counter to Passive Accuracy is Passive Evasion (and vice versa) right?
    
   
2. The counter to improved tracking, rate of fire and range (Active Accuracy) are improved speed, acceleration and maneuverability (Active Evasion) right?
   

 

FACT:

1. Passive Evasion is constant
   
2. Scout Evasion Base Stat: +10% Passive evasion
   
3. Distortion Shield provides Scouts +15% Passive Evasion
   
4. Light weight armor provides Scouts +10% Passive Evasion
   
5. Response Tuning Companion provides +6% Passive Evasion
   

 

EDIT: With an Evasion stacking build Scouts get 41% Passive Evasion.

 

Question:

Since it can be concluded that "Passive" Accuracy is not constant (it actually requires active involvement from the player for these accuracy benefits to take effect) what is the counter to a Scouts constant 41% Passive Evasion?

 

Updated to reflect actual Passive Evasion.

 

Edit: I am not against Passive Evasion. I think it is was included to ensure Gunships would not be able to one shot Scouts 100% of the time and that makes good sense. It is, however imbalanced when it comes to Strike Fighters. Remember Gunships suffer from no tracking, turning or speed penalties while fulfilling their primary role (Sniping)....but as a dogfighting counter to Scouts, Strike Fighters suffer this and more.

Edited January 29, 2014 by Kaivers

[Sharee]

Question:

Since it can be concluded that "Passive" Accuracy is not constant (it actually requires active involvement from the player for these accuracy benefits to take effect) what is the counter to a Scouts constant 41% Passive Evasion?

 

First, in your passive evasion calculation you counted in defensive crew member. Which does provide 6% passive evasion, that is correct.

 

However if you include crew members, you also should include the passive accuracy bonus from the attacker's offensive crew member. Which counteracts the former. So 41% passive evasion becomes only ~35% passive evasion.

 

Second, in your passive evasion calculation you counted in light armor. That armor however is also available to a strike fighter (the pike). Therefore the difference between a pike and a scout shrinks to 25% passive evasion.

 

[EDIT: almost forgot: strike fighters do get a native 5% evasion, so the difference shrinks to 20%]

 

And what is the counter to the scout's 20% passive evasion? How about the strike fighter's ~50% stronger hull? Or ~40% stronger shields, along with ~130% faster shield recharge? He even gets a 5% damage resistance on top. (Just an example comparing a pike with quickcharge shield to a flashfire with distortion field. You can of course use a different configuration, but the strike fighter's hull, shield power, and shield recharge will always be much higher than the scout's. And that's not even counting in the fact these all work against missiles and mines, while the evasion doesn't.)

Edited January 29, 2014 by Sharee

[Verain]

UEdit: I am not against Passive Evasion. I think it is was included to ensure Gunships would not be able to one shot Scouts 100% of the time and that makes good sense.

 

Nope. We know that's not true because the one-shotting is being removed (this was only ever an artifact of bypass), but the evasion isn't even being dented yet. We know if for other reasons as well- ex: if a scout stacks extra health armor on live, they are never going to be one shot.

 

We have no reason to suspect this has anything to do with gunships.

 

Remember Gunships suffer from no tracking, turning or speed penalties while fulfilling their primary role (Sniping)

 

Gunships do in fact have tracking penalties. They also have accuracy penalties at range- many of the "OMG MISS" at 14km will be because of the lower accuracy of the railgun at that range, but there's no way to distinguish miss from evade from whiskey without flytext.

 

They also have turning penalties if they are facing lively well flown pilots at least much of the time, and the speed penalty mostly assures that they can't kite very long and have to have a plan of escape normally.

 

....but as a dogfighting counter to Scouts, Strike Fighters suffer this and more.

 

I don't think the "counter to scouts" was on the minds of the devs when they made strike fighters.

 

My feeling on evasion is, there just needs to be a good counter to it. If you stack damage reduction, I have slug rail gun, burst laser cannon, talented concussion, baseline proton, rocket pods, and heavy lasers. If you stack evasion, I *SHOULD* have plasma railgun, maybe some new laser or maybe rapid fire, and all I really have are the lock and fire missiles- which if you are actually having problems with, you'll make your distortion field also break the lock of.

 

They just need to add evasion piercing weapons, that is all.

[Kaivers]

First, in your passive evasion calculation you counted in defensive crew member. Which does provide 6% passive evasion, that is correct.

 

However if you include crew members, you also should include the passive accuracy bonus from the attacker's offensive crew member. Which counteracts the former. So 41% passive evasion becomes only ~35% passive evasion.

 

Second, in your passive evasion calculation you counted in light armor. That armor however is also available to a strike fighter (the pike). Therefore the difference between a pike and a scout shrinks to 25% passive evasion.

 

And what is the counter to the scout's 25% passive evasion? How about the strike fighter's ~50% stronger hull? Or ~40% stronger shields, along with ~130% faster shield recharge?. (Just an example comparing a pike with quickcharge shield to a flashfire with distortion field. You can of course use a different configuration, but the strike fighter's hull, shield power, and shield recharge will always be much higher than the scout's. And that's not even counting in the fact these all work against missiles and mines, while the evasion doesn't.)

 

You are not taking into account accuracy penalties from tracking, speed and turning. Passive Accuracy actually becomes Active Accuracy because of these penalties. Passive evasion suffers no such penalty. If Accuracy penalties are result of player controlled rate of motion then Evasion penalties should also result from player controlled rate of motion.

 

Shields, Armor and Hull are direct counters to offensive weapons NOT Passive Evasion.