I call "BS" on gunship OP claims.....

[Oteefo]

So....tonight as I ran through my dailies......I realized....on my BH, I was killing gunships all night on all my classes of ships.....then I realized....

 

I had not even upgraded ANY of my ships.........

 

So.....if a Level 0 Scout / Gunship / Strike can survive and protect stations, kill others, take stations and kill turrets....

 

I say all claims of "OP" are "BS"........

Edited December 18, 2013 by Oteefo

[ptwonline]

Depends on the situation.

 

One game I may barely even get off a single shot in my gunship because scouts are looking for me and swarming me. I can barely even reach the 15km range to the satellites.

 

The next game I'll lead in kills and maybe get a 10 streak because everyone else is engaged in dogfights and I can snipe freely from range.

 

So really a lot of it depends on how well your side is doing and how aggressively the other side looks for and attacks gunships. However, once I upgrade my Ion Railgun I can see that causing huge problems for any opponents.

[Oteefo]

.... However, once I upgrade my Ion Railgun I can see that causing huge problems for any opponents.

 

and that's one situation i avoid....being in the swarm......it's great weapon.....but it needs a specific set of circumstances to make it really useful.

[Yorumi]

I think perhaps instead of everyone starting threads attacking everyone else we take a moment and at least read the very well thought out and mature discussion going on. Attack it point by point, explain why the discussion going on is wrong. Nothing is really accomplished by anecdotal evidence and attacks.

[Laiov]

It's not that Gunships are OP. It's that they are game-changers.

 

In small numbers, they seem to be just fine balance-wise. But once you start getting four, five, six or more on the opposing team, gameplay changes from "intense 12v12 free flight dogfighting" to something more like "cloak and dagger". Strike, retreat, hide, repeat. No other class in the game currently changes the gameplay to such an extent just by stacking them.

 

The question becomes: is that 'fun' for the pilots of other ships.

 

Personally, I vote no.

Edited December 18, 2013 by Laiov

[ptwonline]

It's not that Gunships are OP. It's that they are game-changers.

 

In small numbers, they seem to be just fine balance-wise. But once you start getting four, five, six or more on the opposing team, gameplay changes from "intense 12v12 free flight dogfighting" to something more like "cloak and dagger". Strike, retreat, hide, repeat. No other class in the game currently changes the gameplay to such an extent just by stacking them.

 

The question becomes: is that 'fun' for the pilots of other ships.

 

Personally, I vote no.

 

I definitely agree. in smaller battles (say 8v8) I hate to use a Gunship because you get targeted much more quickly and often. But in the big 12v12 matches where any satellite might have a vicious 4v4 dogfight, you can park at the edge of range, BOOM BOOM, and suddenly your side has the decisive edge and will quickly mop up the other side.

 

The one thing in any MMO that is not fun: feeling helpless, like you have no chance. This includes getting one-shot, and feeling helpless due to stuns, slows, etc and then being killed with little or no chance to fight back. Gunships have the power to do both, and as weapons outstrip defenses with all the upgrades it's going to be a balance issue. I feel really sorry for the Strike Fighters who will have neither the speed and firepower nor the defenses to really do much vs the gunships and scouts.

Edited December 18, 2013 by ptwonline

[ChewyYui]

Depends on the skill of the player using the gunship really

[Arkerus]

Try playing a double premade made of gunships. Gunships take up the map, sniping anyone who gets near a satellite. It's hilariously unbalanced. They don't move an inch yet can dominate the map.

 

I mean, yeah it's really fun for the gunship. It's not exactly balanced. If the intent is to CAPTURE satellites a class that can stand still and defend them needs to be scaled back just a bit.

Edited December 18, 2013 by Arkerus

[Itkovian]

I definitely agree. in smaller battles (say 8v8) I hate to use a Gunship because you get targeted much more quickly and often. But in the big 12v12 matches where any satellite might have a vicious 4v4 dogfight, you can park at the edge of range, BOOM BOOM, and suddenly your side has the decisive edge and will quickly mop up the other side.

 

The one thing in any MMO that is not fun: feeling helpless, like you have no chance. This includes getting one-shot, and feeling helpless due to stuns, slows, etc and then being killed with little or no chance to fight back. Gunships have the power to do both, and as weapons outstrip defenses with all the upgrades it's going to be a balance issue. I feel really sorry for the Strike Fighters who will have neither the speed and firepower nor the defenses to really do much vs the gunships and scouts.

 

Well said.

[ColoradoSkier]

Here's my perspective as a gunship flyer who usually is at or near the top of the leaderboards:

Scouts CAN die in one shot but that's with a fully powered railgun and Bypass active which doesn't happen that often--I often can't sit there getting it fully charged with Bypass on cool down while trying to keep a fast maneuvering scout in my sights if he stays in range. Maybe once or twice per battle.

 

Strike fighters never die in one shot.

 

Both do a good job of either killing me or harassing me so I can't sit and snipe once they figure out where I am.

 

This is a team game: scouts capture points and hunt gunships, strike fighters defend points and dogfight, gunships snipe and take out turrets. if you work together at all you can handle gunships; if everyone is off doing their own thing then probably not.

Edited December 18, 2013 by ColoradoSkier

[Yorumi]

Here's my perspective as a gunship flyer who usually is at or near the top of the leaderboards:

Scouts CAN die in one shot but that's with a fully powered railgun and Bypass active which doesn't happen that often--I often can't sit there getting it fully charged with Bypass on cool down while trying to keep a fast maneuvering scout in my sights if he stays in range. Maybe once or twice per battle.

 

Too many people are focusing on the one shot issue, which suggests a lot of these are knee-jerk reactions. To me that's a minor thing and I don't have much of a problem with the one shot. The main thread that's highlighting the issues is extremely detailed and is showing where the problems are arising and what they are specifically. The short version is the real problem lies in the ion railgun and barrel roll.

[Miallen]

My money is on the fact that when all the complaints about the gs are addressed, Bioware is going to inadvertently make them irrelevant (see past Shadow Tank and Commando DPS Balance changes for examples).

 

When it is all said and done, we will just see even more complaints, probably along the lines of "gunships keep stealing my kills". I'm sure it will have nothing to do with the fact that after they get nerfed into the ground, all they can do is snipe a person who is on their last leg.

 

Did I forget to mention that bombers are going to come back? I can already hear the complaints.

[Itkovian]

My money is on the fact that when all the complaints about the gs are addressed, Bioware is going to inadvertently make them irrelevant (see past Shadow Tank and Commando DPS Balance changes for examples).

 

When it is all said and done, we will just see even more complaints, probably along the lines of "gunships keep stealing my kills". I'm sure it will have nothing to do with the fact that after they get nerfed into the ground, all they can do is snipe a person who is on their last leg.

 

Did I forget to mention that bombers are going to come back? I can already hear the complaints.

 

Game balance is like the tide, with a constant ebb and flow... or perhaps it is a dance, with the various partners wanting to dance to their own tune.

 

I'm sure there's a good analogy in there.

 

Point is, there's always shifts in balance, and it's never perfect. New outliers are noticed and complained about, then rectified, and new issues crop up. Sometimes however we get nice reasonable posts like Nemarus' gunship thread, which actually helps inform the devs about problems instead of just adding noise.

[Miallen]

Game balance is like the tide, with a constant ebb and flow... or perhaps it is a dance, with the various partners wanting to dance to their own tune.

 

I'm sure there's a good analogy in there.

 

Point is, there's always shifts in balance, and it's never perfect. New outliers are noticed and complained about, then rectified, and new issues crop up. Sometimes however we get nice reasonable posts like Nemarus' gunship thread, which actually helps inform the devs about problems instead of just adding noise.

 

I agree with some of the comments he has made, primarily the Barrel Roll and Ion/Plasma debuff issues.

 

I strongly disagree with the idea that getting a one shot on a scout or Burst for a primary weapon are real issues.

 

I am on the side of those who understand that if I play a scout, I gave up survivability for movement. I also know that if I am sitting still and I am giving a gunship a chance to charge on me, I deserve death. That is not an issue, it is indeed working as it should be. Scouts need to be more aware of their surrounding and always know that they gave up survivability.

 

If I am forced to be on the run though, I want a fighting chance. No one should instantly assume they are dead because they are regulated to a crappy primary weapon. If they are to do anything, they can reduce the range and buff the Light Laser, but saying we shouldn't be able to defend ourselves if being chased is opening the flood gates to gs irrelevance.

 

If all of his changes happen, Mark my words, Scouts will be the fotm and the cries for nerfs will pour in. Fix what is broken and a lot of the noise will stop.

Edited December 18, 2013 by Miallen

[RebekahWSD]

Try playing a double premade made of gunships. Gunships take up the map, sniping anyone who gets near a satellite. It's hilariously unbalanced. They don't move an inch yet can dominate the map.

 

I mean, yeah it's really fun for the gunship. It's not exactly balanced. If the intent is to CAPTURE satellites a class that can stand still and defend them needs to be scaled back just a bit.

 

Not saying you're wrong here but a double premade is probably going to dominate no matter what they're flying.

[WeadonismyMaster]

Here's my perspective as a gunship flyer who usually is at or near the top of the leaderboards:

Scouts CAN die in one shot but that's with a fully powered railgun and Bypass active which doesn't happen that often--I often can't sit there getting it fully charged with Bypass on cool down while trying to keep a fast maneuvering scout in my sights if he stays in range. Maybe once or twice per battle.

 

Strike fighters never die in one shot.

 

Both do a good job of either killing me or harassing me so I can't sit and snipe once they figure out where I am.

 

This is a team game: scouts capture points and hunt gunships, strike fighters defend points and dogfight, gunships snipe and take out turrets. if you work together at all you can handle gunships; if everyone is off doing their own thing then probably not.

 

Yes.. ^^^^^ Exactly what he said!!

[ptwonline]

Not saying you're wrong here but a double premade is probably going to dominate no matter what they're flying.

 

Even a single pre-made can dominate if the other side doesn't have one.

 

You can often tell when a gunship or two is in a premade with a chat program because the second you go after a gunship, you have a scout or two who instantly pick you up force you to evade, leaving the gunship to eventually pick you off. Then the gunship is left free to dominate the satellite area (except for the one of each map that has a lot of close cover). The best teams of these I see are 2 gunships and 2 scouts, and that is usually an automatic win since they can control any satellite point they want the whole game, and leave the other side scrambling in respawns one by one to get picked off by superior numbers.

[HiddenPalm]

Here's my perspective as a gunship flyer who usually is at or near the top of the leaderboards:

Scouts CAN die in one shot but that's with a fully powered railgun and Bypass active which doesn't happen that often--I often can't sit there getting it fully charged with Bypass on cool down while trying to keep a fast maneuvering scout in my sights if he stays in range. Maybe once or twice per battle.

 

Strike fighters never die in one shot.

 

Both do a good job of either killing me or harassing me so I can't sit and snipe once they figure out where I am.

 

This is a team game: scouts capture points and hunt gunships, strike fighters defend points and dogfight, gunships snipe and take out turrets. if you work together at all you can handle gunships; if everyone is off doing their own thing then probably not.

 

I think you pretty much have the right idea. Its really all about team work and coordination, which sadly cant happen with out built in voice chat. Though I disagree about the gunships being used for sniping, though that is what most use it for. But I must admit, there really isnt one set plan that wins all the time. That being said, let me share why I think Gunship pilots should avoid sniping and camping.

 

Gunship fighters are complaining about the scouts hunting them down. Its because they are trying to stay still and snipe on top of not having a wingperson. To a seasoned scout that is asking for it. I play as scout, and I love Gunships who camp, because you just thrust towards them at odd angles, position yourself and blow them up. Gunships are supposed to take the sats, protected by strike fighters as the scouts scout and distract the enemy in dogfights. But that's ideal. Without a team coordinating and practicing those basics, how can anyone really claim to be an Ace in this game, let alone try and experiment with new tactics? Sure you can get in allot of kills, but what good is that doing overall for the team, especially when objectives are not being completed? When you get allot of kills, its because your fighting unskilled and unseasoned fighters who dont even know how to fly in formation.

 

GS needs built in voice chat, asap.

Edited December 18, 2013 by HiddenPalm

[WeadonismyMaster]

Even a single pre-made can dominate if the other side doesn't have one.

 

You can often tell when a gunship or two is in a premade with a chat program because the second you go after a gunship, you have a scout or two who instantly pick you up force you to evade, leaving the gunship to eventually pick you off. Then the gunship is left free to dominate the satellite area (except for the one of each map that has a lot of close cover). The best teams of these I see are 2 gunships and 2 scouts, and that is usually an automatic win since they can control any satellite point they want the whole game, and leave the other side scrambling in respawns one by one to get picked off by superior numbers.

 

My guild normally will have 2 gunnys, 3 scouts, and 2 fighters. All in voice chat. If we coordinate it is handful for other teams to deal with, and while they have some amazing pilots, they are not able to overcome teamwork. It still trumps all.

[Zoom_VI]

You can often tell when a gunship or two is in a premade with a chat program because the second you go after a gunship, you have a scout or two who instantly pick you up force you to evade, leaving the gunship to eventually pick you off. Then the gunship is left free to dominate the satellite area (except for the one of each map that has a lot of close cover).

That's not a premade, I run cover for PuG gunships all the time. After all picking off a guy attacking a gunship is a free kill since he has to fly in a straight line to effectively hit the gunship, and its super obvious when a scout is going after a gunship since its not like there is another target way out in the outfield where the gunships sit.

[paowee]

where the problems are arising and what they are specifically. The short version is the real problem lies in the ion railgun and barrel roll.

 

If you remove barrel roll gunships will have little to no survivability. Once they get ganked (by an upgraded Flashfire or Fighter manned by a good pilot..) they're as good as dead.

 

Flashfires Bypass through Fortress Shield

Feedback shield... nope..

Interdiction Drive saps half your energy pool and is on a very long cooldown

Power Converter - converts engine to weapon energy...

Rotational Thrusters - turns you to face your target...

 

Right now Distortion Field and Barrel Roll are the only movement/defensive abilities Gunships have. If BW's intent for Gunships is to be literal Glass cannons that have no hope of running away and escaping from ganks, then yes go ahead and nerf Distortion and Barrel Roll for them.

Edited December 18, 2013 by paowee

[Yorumi]

If you remove barrel roll gunships will have little to no survivability. Once they get ganked (by an upgraded Flashfire or Fighter manned by a good pilot..) they're as good as dead.

 

Flashfires Bypass through Fortress Shield

Feedback shield... nope..

Interdiction Drive saps half your energy pool and is on a very long cooldown

Power Converter - converts engine to weapon energy...

Rotational Thrusters - turns you to face your target...

 

Right now Distortion Field and Barrel Roll are the only movement/defensive abilities Gunships have. If BW's intent for Gunships is to be literal Glass cannons that have no hope of running away and escaping from ganks, then yes go ahead and nerf Distortion and Barrel Roll for them.

 

And so what 15km range options do strikes and scouts have? The whole point of gunships is that they suck at close range. If a gunship is supposed to be faster than a scout it would have been made that way. Is it right that scouts have only close range options and gunships have high powered long range weapons AND very very good close range fighting ability?

[paowee]

And so what 15km range options do strikes and scouts have? The whole point of gunships is that they suck at close range. If a gunship is supposed to be faster than a scout

 

Are you sure all Scouts (novadives and flashfires) cant chase Gunships? Or just you....?

 

Benetration - SGS-45 Quarrel - Solo's Cholos - The Harbinger - 115728 damage

from http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=703085

 

as you can see plays a Gunship but spends a lot of time on his Flashfire as well. I don't see Gunships surviving when he goes on his Flashfire for a gank and chase. In fact they barely have time to react at all and they're dead by the time they barrel roll because of Quad Laser and Bypass combo. When they barrel roll he chases after them and more often than not the Gunship ends up dead.

 

I play on my Novadive and spend 90% of my time hunting Gunships (one of the 12 in my team HAS to do that role. it is a team game after all. and its a bad idea to leave enemy gunships unattended). I have barrel roll no upgrades , booster recharge no upgrades, speed thrusters fully upgraded and i can chase gunships just fine. i'll usually chase them up to their capital ship then turn and zigzag away. or leave them at low hp from the initial blaster+rocket pods+bypass unload. Since i maxed out Sensor Range and companions i can easily see them on my radar i just take a long u-turn flank and repeat the gank again. if i feel i'm being scoped by him i pop Distortion Field which gives 6 seconds of 65% evasion. Idk how evasion works but i also have evasion armor fully upgraded and using evasion companion passive as well.

Edited December 18, 2013 by paowee

[Yorumi]

You're dodging the question, and one bit of anecdotal evidence doesn't make a point. Scouts and strikes have NO option for long range fighting, gunships have extraordinary long range capabilities and very strong short range capabilities. So should we change the max range on concussion missiles to 15km?

[Arkerus]

Even a single pre-made can dominate if the other side doesn't have one.

 

You can often tell when a gunship or two is in a premade with a chat program because the second you go after a gunship, you have a scout or two who instantly pick you up force you to evade, leaving the gunship to eventually pick you off. Then the gunship is left free to dominate the satellite area (except for the one of each map that has a lot of close cover). The best teams of these I see are 2 gunships and 2 scouts, and that is usually an automatic win since they can control any satellite point they want the whole game, and leave the other side scrambling in respawns one by one to get picked off by superior numbers.

 

The point being a premade unleashes the total power of a gunship. Its not that the premade doens't help but a premade made of some gunships vs a premade with no gunships will decimate the other team because off the 15km range and 1-2 hit kills.

 

My point wasn't that premades will win (they will). Its that the premade reveals the true power of a fully functional gun ship. (get it? )

 

 

We are going to find over the next couple months that gunships simply have too many tools. Too many escape options and too many weapons to make them truly balanced.

 

That's ok. All games like this change over time.

Edited December 19, 2013 by Arkerus