IncoherentVoice Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 (edited) The thing that bothers me most about GSF is the evasion stat. I've heard scout pilots vehemently defend it as the only thing that keeps them alive, and after hearing from them I have been convinced that it should be in the game (plus the idea of cybernetic warfare and distortion fields is pretty cool). The problem I have with it is that I would really like some kind of feedback that the reason I'm missing is that they're evading, and not that I'm lagging out or getting cheated. The best example I can think of to cite is in Team Fortress 2. Scouts in that game have an item (not sure what it's called) that enables them to dodge all attacks that hit them for a short time, much like the evasion-boosting cooldowns in GSF. However, there's a VERY clear indication that they're using the ability, and when you shoot at them you're given floating text that says "Miss!" to let you know that you're on target, but that your damage is being negated by the ability. That's what I'd like to see in this game- when you're on target, and would have hit an enemy if not for their evasion stat, you should be given some sort of notification that they did in fact evade the shot. I also feel like there should be a more obvious indicator that an enemy scout is using an evasion boosting cooldown, but I think some might argue that that would defeat the purpose, especially when being targeted by an enemy Gunship. What are your thoughts on ship evasion in GSF? Edited December 10, 2013 by IncoherentVoice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thaDoakes Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 Why do you feel that you should be notified of an enemies ability? I get what you are trying to say, but their internal abilities aren't supposed to be displayed to you. Would we want "John Doe is Charging His Railgun Aimed At You" to pop up on screen? I would hope not. That's the whole point.....if you miss you need to compensate or call in a wingman instead of being told exactly what upgrades your foe has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IncoherentVoice Posted December 10, 2013 Author Share Posted December 10, 2013 Why do you feel that you should be notified of an enemies ability? I get what you are trying to say, but their internal abilities aren't supposed to be displayed to you. Would we want "John Doe is Charging His Railgun Aimed At You" to pop up on screen? I would hope not. That's the whole point.....if you miss you need to compensate or call in a wingman instead of being told exactly what upgrades your foe has. In the example you gave, you're talking about an enemy you presumably can't see charging an attack to fire against you. Now, if you COULD see this enemy, you'd notice a giant halo of energy around them giving away what they're doing. Bioware did in fact see fit to show you when a Gunship is charging their railgun due to the devastating impact it can have on the flow of battle, so while I understand your argument, I don't think that example really does it justice. When a scout uses an ability that boosts their total evasion to 100%, that is as devastating a defensive measure as a fully charged railgun shot is an offensive measure, so it makes sense for there to be more of a clear indicator. Also, GSF already uses floating text to show the damage you're doing, just like in the ground game. Using floating text to show that your enemy is evading an otherwise well-placed attack (much like how you'll see "Miss" or "Evaded" in the ground game) makes sense. It helps you differentiate between missing because your aim is off and missing because their evasion stat is high which I personally feel is important in a game like this. You're not just tab-targeting and hitting "1-1-1" against these enemies, you're leading and shooting them with FPS style controls. When they evade a well-aimed attack because of an underlying evasion statistic, you should know that's why you missed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andurian Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 A little -miss- popup rather than a dmg one when you miss due to evasion would be handy. If you miss normally no notification like it is now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IncoherentVoice Posted December 10, 2013 Author Share Posted December 10, 2013 A little -miss- popup rather than a dmg one when you miss due to evasion would be handy. If you miss normally no notification like it is now. That is exactly what I had in mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtsr Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 (edited) well, play a scout to find out. It does put a visual fluid shimmer like a space jellyfish around the scout distortion field +15 evasion -30 shield power capacity activates: 65% evasion for 3 seconds tier 2: +10% evasion tier 3: activation: 6 secs + no misslle lock haven't gotten tier 3 yet, maxxed out engines and weapons first on the sting. lightweight armor gives +10 evasion at tier 3 but I went with extra health later I might switch to the LW. distortion field is default on scouts for shield category but isn't really shields at all, in fact, it lowers shields and better shields is another tree entirely. Edited December 10, 2013 by mtsr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uber_the_Goober Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 It does put a visual fluid shimmer like a space jellyfish around the scout Which is not visible to other ships unless they're literally up your butt. Plus, it would defeat the purpose to have your enemy know you're using the ability during the whole time you're using it. They should only know AFTER they've shot you, and missed, that they missed due to your ability. It causes them to waste a shot, and that's part of the point sometimes depending on the tactics you're using. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ledman Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 ... When a scout uses an ability that boosts their total evasion to 100%, that is as devastating a defensive measure as a fully charged railgun shot is an offensive measure, so it makes sense for there to be more of a clear indicator. ... Enemy will use all possible defensive actions against your attack, you have to expect that. You can already see active (de)buffs on your ship and if I'm not mistaken on your target as well (can't verify right now) much like in ground game (btw. you can edit GSF UI as well). And most of the abillities have some minor visual effect. To further emphasize these effects would kinda ruin the immersion.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nemarus Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 I would also like a "Miss" notification, just to let me know if I'm personally aiming on target or not. Sometimes I'll think I'm aiming on target but no damage number will appear. Is it because of evasion? My natural miss chance? Or because I'm not aimed properly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Svarthrafn Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 (edited) How can you not tell if you are aiming on target or not? You have a gunsight and a lead indicator. It's generally pretty evident. If no damage shows up, they evaded, or your accuracy was degraded. Distortion already has a visual effect that I have seen on opponents just fine. Besides, passive evade can cause you to miss as well as the distortion ability. Sounds like gunshippers crying to me. Edited December 10, 2013 by Svarthrafn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thaDoakes Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 I would also like a "Miss" notification, just to let me know if I'm personally aiming on target or not. Sometimes I'll think I'm aiming on target but no damage number will appear. Is it because of evasion? My natural miss chance? Or because I'm not aimed properly? As a scout pilot evasion, speed, and maneuvers are supposed to be our advantages and guns and armor are yours. If we suddenly started seeing that "MISS" (due to evasion), strikes and gunships would simply wait it out or hit an accuracy ability. I think you are supposed to be left wondering if it's your aim or my evasion because that makes you continue to fire which depletes your weapon reserves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharee Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 A little -miss- popup rather than a dmg one when you miss due to evasion would be handy. If you miss normally no notification like it is now. That's reasonable. To let you know this is the time to use that powerup which reduces enemy evade. Because right now its hard to tell if the enemy used a defensive evade CD or whether you are missing due to lag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantasym Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 (edited) A little -miss- popup rather than a dmg one when you miss due to evasion would be handy. If you miss normally no notification like it is now. The problem with this is missing because of evasion and missing because of having low accuracy don't have any difference in terms of mechanics since evasion essentially lowers accuracy. This would mean that every time you miss because you are at long range and have 80% accuracy instead of 95% you see the same text. Every time you are firing at the edge of your firing arc getting 1.5% less accuracy for each degree off center you are you see those same Miss dialogs, the ship might have 0% evasion and you would still see these due to other affects. I would guess 99% of the time you are missing due to evasion, or degraded accuracy or combination of the two when you are on the lead mark and within range. When it is lag it is completely different things jump around erratically etc. If they make it completely obviously when the evasion cooldown is used then they would have to do the same for fortress shield, for reflect shield and for the charged plating, and what about also doing the same for offensive cooldowns. If you know to wait to use a cool down until my evasion is up, then why shouldn't I be able to see you just used your shield piercing cooldown or crit boosting cooldown so I can pop evasion to negate it. It opens a whole big bag of worms no one wants to deal with, things are fine how they are, assume it is not lag unless the ship jumps erratically and disappears or rubberbands etc. Edited December 10, 2013 by Phantasym Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uber_the_Goober Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 There's a math formula the game is using to determine if a shot lands - we just don't know what it is. We don't need to either. It does, I am sure, decide if a shot is evaded, or if you missed due to low accuracy. Having a text popup indicating "miss" (to show that your diminished accuracy % caused the failure) or "evade" (indicating the enemy's evasion stat caused the failure) or nothing at all (indicating your targeting reticule isn't aligned properly) will help immensely in determining if you'll adjust your tactics or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resipsal Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 Besides, passive evade can cause you to miss as well as the distortion ability. Sounds like gunshippers crying to me. Railguns ignore evasion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yorumi Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 Railguns ignore evasion. If they actually do it's a bug, otherwise why would they have an accuracy stat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCaliban Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 Railguns ignore evasion. Nope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tentou Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 Railguns ignore evasion. They do not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IncoherentVoice Posted December 11, 2013 Author Share Posted December 11, 2013 (edited) How can you not tell if you are aiming on target or not? You have a gunsight and a lead indicator. It's generally pretty evident. If no damage shows up, they evaded, or your accuracy was degraded. Distortion already has a visual effect that I have seen on opponents just fine. Besides, passive evade can cause you to miss as well as the distortion ability. Sounds like gunshippers crying to me. When an enemy is flying evasively or lagging the indicator jumps all over the place, not to mention when following up close, so there are plenty of times when whether or not you're actually on target is the subject of speculation. That aside, though, it's really just a point of frustration that I've heard echoed by a number of people I've flown with. Something about being given no feedback when underlying math is what's causing you to miss in a game like this is fundamentally annoying. Think about it in the context of the ground game in just about any MMO. If you deal no damage to an enemy, you're given an indication of why that happens (miss, parry, block, evade), and based on that information you can change your tactics or even your build. In Starfighter you can also miss for a variety of reasons (accuracy, evasion, player aim) but there's nothing given to differentiate one miss from another. If every time you did no damage to an enemy in the ground game the game was silent as to why it'd drive me nuts, personally, and in Starfighter it's arguably more important because things happen much faster. When I'm on target in a game where I have a cursor and am aiming manually, but can't hit them regardless of whether or not I'm on target, it's frustrating and it just feels like something is missing. Feedback from the game would hugely alleviate that frustration, and it would also serve as a way to introduce the concepts of evasion and accuracy in a game where you are manually aiming (traditionally unwelcome concepts) to new players in a practical way. I'm not suggesting scouts are OP, that evasion get nerfed, or that anything change other than that the game give additional feedback. It would not make the game easier or more difficult for anyone involved, but it would make these concepts a bit more approachable and I really just think it's a good idea. As for making the use of cooldowns more evident, I had stated I was hesitant about that for reasons that have already been repeated several times in this thread. Not really sure how you interpreted any of my points as "crying." Edited December 11, 2013 by IncoherentVoice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamikazeelotro Posted December 11, 2013 Share Posted December 11, 2013 They do not. I always get hit with railguns and missiles even when popping my distortion skill. I think there is a bug in the game if they are meant to be evaded. I can confirm that it does 100% evade standard lasers for 3 seconds. Handy when head on with another ship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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