Problem with Self-Destruction

[Grimoir]

So after playing for the past few days, I've noticed an increasingly frustrating trend that is quickly catching on with new and veteran players alike:

 

Intentional self-destructions for the sole purposes of either respawning in a new ship, or denying kills to the other team.

 

Now I'm sure some of you see no problem with either of those scenarios, and I would tend to agree on the grounds of the first one being that it is an arguably strategic choice. But as far as denials, it's incredibly frustrating when you work to get someone down to low health before they simply run into a wall to deny you medals and/or points. I find it very hard to believe that this was the way that the devs intended it to work given that there are several skills/weapons in the game that are designed to cause targets to lose control of their ships.

 

Take Sabotage Probe for example: You force your enemy to drive in a straight line for 6 seconds. Logically, the best strategic option would be to force an enemy to run straight into a wall so as to get the easy kill, right? Well that choice goes out the door with the current state of how self-destruction doles out both punishments AND rewards(of the lack-there-of).

 

I propose a simple solution: --Grant a kill to the last player to hit the target within the last XX number of seconds. This applies to both Self-destructions and turret kills.--

 

Warthunder has had this system in place since day one as it really allows players, especially those who like to do things besides objectives, to have more fun with the game. I have to note at this point that I'm not solely a dog-fighter, in fact I tend to run objectives in 90% of my games. But I still find it fun to chase down Gunships in my scout when my team already has the objectives secured. But back to topic at hand: This not only rewards people for getting better at the game, but it prevents the need for a penalty when you accidentally crash your ship, or even intentionally do so to respawn in a new one.

 

I mean, really, how dissatisfying is it to get your kill denied by a ******* who intentionally rams their ship into a wall, or even by a turret that just happens to get the last hit on the guy you've been chasing for the last few minutes?

Edited December 9, 2013 by Grimoir

[Mastershroom]

Couldn't agree more. It's incredibly frustrating to get the upper hand in a dogfight and hit an enemy with multiple lock-on missiles only to have him boost into a rock or satellite and negate all the work I did.

[LeonBraun]

The credit for the kill should go to the pilot with the most damage done to the fighter if no actual kill shot happens.

[Trigon]

Eric Musco already laid out several reasons why self-destruct is a poor strategy. I take it as a compliment and assume I've sent the pilot into a panic whenever this happens. If it's intentional, well hey thanks for the points and enjoy your ineffective flight back into the engagement zone.

[ODTONE]

that usually happens when youre trying to missile lock the same person for the last 2 minutes and driving them nuts lol

[Itis]

Whah......

[Alyssis]

I am one of those people that tend to have more self-destruct deaths, then being killed by the opposing team.. Not because i want to deny the kill, but more because that Retro Thruster takes me just a little bit to far behind every time i use it..

 

I've played quite alot of games now, at least 50 i thinks, but i still fail like the first time i played.. And im guessing im not alone in that.. Boosting my scout inside the tight spaces to get away, theres always that chance that i turn a bit wrong, or to late.. And this usually happens when im under attack, so it might look like im doing it on purpose..

 

So, what im trying to say is.. Not everytime you see this is intended, that for sure..!

[MCaliban]

I have self-destructed to change ships. Usually I start in a scout to grab bases and then switch to striker or gunship.

 

I suspect that the number of people self-destructing to deny kills is lower than those frustrated with the practice believe. For example, I often forget that my boost in a striker points me backwards instead of flying forward.

 

If you've been whittling them down for a few minutes, their nerves are probably a bit frail, and it's easier for them to make mistakes.

[archifikoss]

I hate it when I accidentally self destruct I'd much rather get killed by the player after me than mismaneuver/barrel roll/retro thruster into an asteroid and feel like an idiot

[ArchangelLBC]

Actually your sabotage probe example is precisely why nothing should change. Lose the kill but take the pilot out of the fight. Which is more important?

[Zaxem]

i only self destruct on purpose when i run out of missiles but i agree with your statement Edited December 9, 2013 by Zaxem

[tommmsunb]

It bothered me at first and then I realized that it could also be part of a strategy to get me frustrated (After I heard somebody say "Yeah I bet he's pissed now" in chat about this.) I do whatever I can to not get frustrated and I'd advise you guys do the same, you fly better and you win more. Also, do yourself a favour and don't get stuck in a 2 minute turn fight. You're not contributing that much at that point and you're a sitting duck if somebody comes along and thinks its your time to die.

[Grimoir]

The responses so far are much appreciated, and I'm glad to see at least a little bit of a discussion going on! So far, I feel like there is a lack of reasoning for not granting the kill credit though. Whether the self-destruct is intentional or not, there is no reason that a medal should not be awarded if another player had something to do with the death. Honestly, I find myself denying kills from time to time, which only serves to piss myself off because I've stooped to such a level. This deplorable behavior, whether intentional or not, is no reason to not give credit imo.

 

The point of them having to respawn is moot since you would likely have killed them anyways, they've only potentially sped up the process in conjunction with aggravating the player chasing them regardless of intent(if it was on purpose or not).

 

As for the solution itself, keep in mind that all it would really be doing is awarding medals to people who put time and effort into the actual combat. Sure, when you're dogfighting its highly unlikely that you're contributing to objectives, but some people enjoy doing that while the rest of their team holds down the fort. As I said before, I find myself almost constantly guarding nodes, but thats OK when my teammates are preventing the other team from getting near me by dog-fighting off the point. They're contributing just the same by keeping the enemy pre-occupied, and if one does sneak through I can run circles around the node until I get a firing solution on them, or my team comes in to pick them up.

 

I personally feel that there should be some sort of penalty besides having to run back to the node if you purposefully run into a wall with the current state of things. Keep in mind that you get a 'death' whether you're killed by a wall, player, or a turret. Thats why I said that a system like this can alleviate the need for such a 'punishment' of sorts. Award the kill credit where credit is due, and everyone goes home happy. Except for maybe the griefers, however small their numbers may be.

 

As for the intentional destructions for respawning, I would like to hear your thoughts for how it would be detrimental for the system, because of the above scenario, to award a kill to the last player to hit you(or the one that did the most damage to you) before you run into a wall?

 

EDIT: And dont forget the turrets kill-stealing. That personally makes me almost as angry when I've done most or all of the work for a turret to get a last hit as the enemy dives for cover under a satellite.

Edited December 9, 2013 by Grimoir

[Brewski]

...

So far, I feel like there is a lack of reasoning for not granting the kill credit though.

...

 

Assists count the same for rewards and wins as kills do, and you get an assist if you 1 point of damage to someone who dies. Since suiciding does not prevent those rewards, you are being denied nothing except for the number in the "assists" column being incremented instead of the number in the "kills" column and possible a medal. Since neither of those have any effect on rewards or wins, how is it a problem?

 

When someone I'm tailing suicides, my reaction is "yeah, now I can go kill someone else too!" Well, unless I'm not paying close enough attention, and I pile into the wall right after him. Then my reaction is a bit different, but I ahve only myself to blame...

[Grimoir]

Assists count the same for rewards and wins as kills do, and you get an assist if you 1 point of damage to someone who dies. Since suiciding does not prevent those rewards, you are being denied nothing except for the number in the "assists" column being incremented instead of the number in the "kills" column and possible a medal. Since neither of those have any effect on rewards or wins, how is it a problem?

 

When someone I'm tailing suicides, my reaction is "yeah, now I can go kill someone else too!" Well, unless I'm not paying close enough attention, and I pile into the wall right after him. Then my reaction is a bit different, but I ahve only myself to blame...

 

Last I checked, it still doesnt count as an assist, but I'll have to look a little further into that. I'm sure that in the case of turrets, they're counting as assists.

 

But really man? Think about how much extra satisfaction you'd get by seeing your name flash across the screen and into the chat log as the killer of someone who just died, whether it was by self-destruction or not?

 

Also, assists don't count the same in achievements, so I don't quite agree with the reasoning. Is that really a reason for them to NOT makes changes to the system?

[Arkerus]

This has already been laid out. The complaint about self destructing is nothing more than people complaining about their epeen-o-meter.

 

Self destructing already promotes an assist point as well as supplying a point to the other team. Its also completely detrimental to your team.

 

Stop complaining about it and play. I laugh when people do it because it only hurts their team. People also make honest mistakes. I know I have flown into walls on accident. It happens. Get over it.

[Itkovian]

I believe Eric Musco stated that it DOES count as an assist.

 

And really, when people suicide is a GOOD thing. It kills them faster, allows you to focus on more important threats while they're busy respawning and running back to join the fight again.

 

It may feel a bit frustrating, but just tell yourself that you did good and move on to a more important target.

[Brewski]

I'm 90% certain it has been confirmed by someone with yellow text that assist/kill rewards are equal, and that a suicide still triggers assists, but I'll have to look it up for the quote.

 

I may be the rare one out, but I honestly don't worry about cosmetics when I play. Is it more satisfying to kill someone than it is to get an assist? Sure. But it's even more satisfying to win the match. I like achievements well enough, but like I said, my first focus is on winning as a team.

 

That said, I can understand that this varies from person to person, and yes, it would be nice as an update for purely cosmetic reasons. I just think the overall feeling people have that people who suicide are getting an advantage needs to be straightened out. The only advantage you get is refill on missiles, which is partially countered by your being removed from combat for a while, and will be further addressed when they add bombers back in to help you refill on the fly.

[Luneward]

I'm 90% certain it has been confirmed by someone with yellow text that assist/kill rewards are equal, and that a suicide still triggers assists, but I'll have to look it up for the quote.

 

Indeed. The relevant quote is:

These individual rewards are granted to each player who contributed to the action, so that teamwork is never penalized. For example, if you damage an enemy player but a teammate swoops in and finishes them off, you both get the full reward for defeating that ship. Source

 

So kills are pretty much only useful as e-peen. There's only the illusion of them being worth more because that is how the default sorting on the stats screen works.

[Kurzaa]

That was me. Wasn't trying to "steal" the credit for killing me, I am just that bad of a pilot.

 

Though in my defense, half the time, I am using escape measures and the game runs me into the object.

[-Damask-]

Until they add a way for us to reload, this is the only way to do so. Even with a scout fully upgraded you only have 40-50 rockets depending on the crew you pick. What are we supposed to do when we run out? Fly around with only half of our offensive weaponry for the rest of the match?

[bsbrad]

The credit for the kill should go to the pilot with the most damage done to the fighter if no actual kill shot happens.

 

This I agree with, the credit for the kill should go to who did the most damage within a 30s period on the ship. As a lot of my kills can get taken away, hell I have had 1 kill 12 assist matches when I did the bulk of the softening up on the 12 targets just for a gunship or missile to take the kill from me.

[RedKillJoy]

Honestly, I think credit for self-destruction should go to the player who last damaged the ship itself. On the note of players "stealing" kills, you have to be aware that this is a team effort, and you aren't the only starfighter out there. I don't really mind if someone kills them before me, because it means that pilot just got taken out of the fight for awhile. Of course if someone in my guild steals it from me, then it gets serious. And I do hate how far the evasion maneuvers throw you. It gets really annoying to be trying to avoid a lock-on and then get killed anyway.

[paowee]

Until they add a way for us to reload, this is the only way to do so. Even with a scout fully upgraded you only have 40-50 rockets depending on the crew you pick. What are we supposed to do when we run out? Fly around with only half of our offensive weaponry for the rest of the match?

 

They're adding Bomber class ships in the future that will help allies refill missiles (among other things)

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=6999515#post6999515

Edited December 9, 2013 by paowee

[Gavin_Kelvar]

there is also this: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=6999515#edit6999515

 

So not only do you get the assist and req but the enemy's suicide also helps your team. Theoretically if they didn't suicide they might be able to escape/survive. which means that a possible point to help your team win goes from "possible" to "ensured" because of their suicide.

 

All things considered the devs can't do more to discourage suicide than they already have. Sure they could make suicides count as double points for the enemy team but that wouldn't be newb friendly (since they'll make a lot of mistakes starting out) and for accidental suicides it'll unfairly hurt the team.