The REAL juggernaut concerns thread.

[UndyingHadyn]

Did you really just call Turrican bad? Rofl. All your opinions are instantly void from that one comment.

 

No, turrican is a good player...did you watch that stream? Have you played with or against him in game? It's got nothing to do with him, it's the class. Juggernauts cannot equip dps gear, throw a guard out, and match what dps sintanks and dps Ion pt's can do.

 

Are you aware of this fact, or are you in the turrican fan club. This thread is about improving the juggernaut class, not sucking sin hole.

Edited December 12, 2013 by UndyingHadyn

[Lacedemon]

Replacing Unyielding with an AOE Damage reduction (while I would like one when Vengeance) is a bad idea. Basically you want to avoid a case of "low hanging fruit" where your trees are loaded with really good low tier talents that are built for one spec but low enough for the others to get (imagine Rage/Immortal with an AOE DR). Example of this are Duplicity pre 2.0 and Defensive Roll in the Carnage Tree. I think the AOE DR should be rolled into Deadly Reprisal as it is a talent with limited use and it would make it worth taking.

Vengeance needs a look at for both PvE and PvP, Rage as it stands because it is not reliant on procs is more consistent in PvE, which one could argue is a bad thing (see Mauull from Suckafish's parses on the matter).

 

Regarding Enraged defence, imho ability should be changed to be a sort of Overcharge/Cloak of pain hybrid for Juggs. With the large number of talents already in the trees, I would prefer it to just base line do different things for all three specs.

 

Firstly, the threat drop component should be rolled into another skill, currently it is the only threat drop that exists with a resource cost attached to it. Secondly, the Rage cost to activate and heal should go, it does not do enough healing compared to other similar skills to justify the cost.

 

As a baseline I would like to see it add 15% DR to all trees baseline in addition to the heal it does (this helps with survivability for all three specs especially in PvP. I would then suggest:

 

Immortal: Increases threat generation by X% for the duration (currently we lack a high threat opening pull in PvE and have the worst threat of the tanks, this alleviates this

Vengeance: Increases the Proc Change of Rampage by x% for the duration. - best helpful thing I could think of that wouldn’t be OP also see below for why I chose this not a dmg inc. Although I wonder because of the name, it should be defensive in nature for the buff.

Rage: Not sure what is best I know what the tree lacks but everything I can think of sounds rather op (reset the CD on Reflect, Force Lash will now proc of all attacks for the duration etc…)

 

I also think we need a proper offensive CD like the other classes have, this could either be rolled into Enraged Defence (but tying to many things to one skill makes us easier to lock down). The problem is what would help the specs would differ (crit would help Vengeance but rage not so much and likewise immortal due to the lack of surge). I do feel we need one however.

 

I think Oppressor in the rage tree needs to be reworked as it is currently inferior to the marauder mirror talent as well as strangulate, I think even though it doesn’t build stacks the stun needs pushback immunity otherwise it lasts less than 3 secs yet doesn’t build less resolve if it does last less.

 

For PvP Vengeance should get a snare attached to one of its dots. On the dot subject I do feel if they are to remain the ones on Scream and Impale should go to a 9 second duration and have the damage increased respectively and just full stop across the board as they are pitiful.

 

Immortal is in a good place in PvE but it needs something to help with F/T attacks as it suffers vs the other tanks on those, a flat increase in Shield/Absorb would help but I think it’s boring and doesn’t play to our niche which is cooldowns.

Edited December 12, 2013 by Lacedemon

[Lacedemon]

Regarding the mainstat, my view is a bit different here, I wouldn't say no to it but it isn't high on my list of things to ask for, I think there are better things to try and get which would have a more profound impact to the class.

 

Although I personally think % talents like that which are so important for the AC's that have them they are mandatory should be removed as talents and added as AC passives (passives given at lvl 10 when your AC is chosen in the case of Mainstat).

[UndyingHadyn]

Replacing Unyielding with an AOE Damage reduction (while I would like one when Vengeance) is a bad idea. Basically you want to avoid a case of "low hanging fruit" where your trees are loaded with really good low tier talents that are built for one spec but low enough for the others to get (imagine Rage/Immortal with an AOE DR). Example of this are Duplicity pre 2.0 and Defensive Roll in the Carnage Tree.

 

Yes, an easy passive reduction trait should be located high in the tree, and be attainable by only one spec. This unfortunately isn't the case right now for classes queuing up in arenas.

 

Your imagination doesn't have to stretch very far. There are many specs that benefit from this damage reduction...at times, it's game-breaking.

[Racter]

No, turrican is a good player...did you watch that stream? Have you played with or against him in game? It's got nothing to do with him, it's the class. Juggernauts cannot equip dps gear, throw a guard out, and match what dps sintanks and dps Ion pt's can do.

 

Are you aware of this fact, or are you in the turrican fan club. This thread is about improving the juggernaut class, not sucking sin hole.

 

I have played with and against him consistently since ~1.4 and am on his team in 4s. He is hands down the best assassin in the game. If he wasn't, if it was just his class as you claim, you would see more than one person using it in the world. Roudy (TOFN SIn Tank) runs a similar but not identical spec and does less than 1/3 of turrican's output.

 

I wholly disagree that required defensive talents need to be farther up in trees out of reach of other specs. Rage and Vengeance are both not viable because it doesn't have AOE DR in combination with having less utility than a Smash Mara and far lower general survivability. It is the same exact reason you don't see Concealment in ranked, it's not a lack of damage (somewhat a lack of utility though it does have limited amounts), it's the inability to not get cleaved to death immediately that prevents these specs from performing. Even pyro is only coming back now in limited examples on servers where cleaves are starting to become less common, and that spec still has far better survivability and arguably better utility than Jugg DPS. Tank Juggs are also almost non existent, both because of their poor survivability and horribad damage.

 

If anything they should make AOE DR passive for melee classes, but they can't because operatives also have a healing spec and that would be grossly imbalanced.

Edited December 12, 2013 by Racter

[ShadowMudkip]

The free Vicious Throw proc should refresh all dots currently on the target. Additionally, the dots from scream and impale should tick faster and have a higher crit rating.

[UndyingHadyn]

I have played with and against him consistently since ~1.4 and am on his team in 4s. He is hands down the best assassin in the game. If he wasn't, if it was just his class as you claim, you would see more than one person using it in the world. Roudy (TOFN SIn Tank) runs a similar but not identical spec and does less than 1/3 of turrican's output.

 

I wholly disagree that required defensive talents need to be farther up in trees out of reach of other specs. Rage and Vengeance are both not viable because it doesn't have AOE DR in combination with having less utility than a Smash Mara and far lower general survivability. It is the same exact reason you don't see Concealment in ranked, it's not a lack of damage (somewhat a lack of utility though it does have limited amounts), it's the inability to not get cleaved to death immediately that prevents these specs from performing. Even pyro is only coming back now in limited examples on servers where cleaves are starting to become less common, and that spec still has far better survivability and arguably better utility than Jugg DPS. Tank Juggs are also almost non existent, both because of their poor survivability and horribad damage.

 

If anything they should make AOE DR passive for melee classes, but they can't because operatives also have a healing spec and that would be grossly imbalanced.

 

 

Hmm. So let's say the 30% aoe mitigation trait for marauders was moved to the top of the carnage tree. Would it be game-breaking? How many marauders who currently play rage, would switch to carnage do you think?

Edited December 12, 2013 by UndyingHadyn

[Racter]

Hmm. So let's say the 30% aoe mitigation trait for marauders was moved to the top of the carnage tree. Would it be game-breaking? How many marauders who currently play rage, would switch to carnage do you think?

 

It wouldn't affect me personally, thought that is a shockingly bad idea for a balance suggestion. Only change I see that bringing is everyone replaces their maras with their PTs. lol

[UndyingHadyn]

It wouldn't affect me personally, thought that is a shockingly bad idea for a balance suggestion. Only change I see that bringing is everyone replaces their maras with their PTs. lol

 

You've done much much more than answer my question. I appreciate that.

[ThreeLeggedCow]

That would be great. As things stand, I generally open without Saber Throw just to avoid that case. As long as the boss actually hits me once or twice, rage isn't really an issue.

 

Didn't saber throw used to have the "deals high threat" attribute on it before 2.0? I could swear it was one of the higher threat abilities.

 

As a tank juggernaught I am tired of how much harder it is for me to not just keep aggro in a pve environment, but having ZERO ranged threat abilites just sucks. The worst thing that can happen to a jugger tank is that u get punted back by mobbs (those 30m punts are pathetic they really are as they often contain a slow as well) and u might as well forget it. The only way juggers can aoe tank in swtor is aoe taunt + sabre reflect. We have no other ranged threat abilites period. This needs to change we need some more mid - long range abilities or failing that cc immunity after we leap (unshakeable from vengeance tree would work nice here). The old 50 hm fps are a perfect example of Leap in *BOOM* immediatly knocked back/stunned/slowed/rooted.

 

Both saber throw and force charge need to lose there distance requirement its just completly unneccesary.

[lordbadtamaru]

Didn't saber throw used to have the "deals high threat" attribute on it before 2.0? I could swear it was one of the higher threat abilities.

 

As a tank juggernaught I am tired of how much harder it is for me to not just keep aggro in a pve environment, but having ZERO ranged threat abilites just sucks. The worst thing that can happen to a jugger tank is that u get punted back by mobbs (those 30m punts are pathetic they really are as they often contain a slow as well) and u might as well forget it. The only way juggers can aoe tank in swtor is aoe taunt + sabre reflect. We have no other ranged threat abilites period. This needs to change we need some more mid - long range abilities or failing that cc immunity after we leap (unshakeable from vengeance tree would work nice here). The old 50 hm fps are a perfect example of Leap in *BOOM* immediatly knocked back/stunned/slowed/rooted.

 

Both saber throw and force charge need to lose there distance requirement its just completly unneccesary.

 

^^ this guy.

[Racter]

You've done much much more than answer my question. I appreciate that.

 

My meaning was I exclusively play Carnage in team queue, so it would have no effect on the only game play I care about. However, I do occasionally do regs (exclusively as anni) and that would be a massive unwarranted nerf to Annihilation.

[ConCube]

 

Didn't saber throw used to have the "deals high threat" attribute on it before 2.0? I could swear it was one of the higher threat abilities.

 

As a tank juggernaught I am tired of how much harder it is for me to not just keep aggro in a pve environment, but having ZERO ranged threat abilites just sucks. The worst thing that can happen to a jugger tank is that u get punted back by mobbs (those 30m punts are pathetic they really are as they often contain a slow as well) and u might as well forget it. The only way juggers can aoe tank in swtor is aoe taunt + sabre reflect. We have no other ranged threat abilites period. This needs to change we need some more mid - long range abilities or failing that cc immunity after we leap (unshakeable from vengeance tree would work nice here). The old 50 hm fps are a perfect example of Leap in *BOOM* immediatly knocked back/stunned/slowed/rooted.

 

Both saber throw and force charge need to lose there distance requirement its just completly unneccesary.

 

 

Hmmm... I see us charging in from 80 meter range ... Could you please clarify what you mean exactly?

Edited December 13, 2013 by ConCube

[lordbadtamaru]

Basically we cannot leap from 9 meters, or saber throw, but we can leap from 30 or 20. That is BS.

[UndyingHadyn]

Basically we cannot leap from 9 meters, or saber throw, but we can leap from 30 or 20. That is BS.

 

I absolutely agree. Needs to get fixed.

 

 

Obliterate can remain a second short range charge that can be utilized while rooted.

[UndyingHadyn]

My meaning was I exclusively play Carnage in team queue, so it would have no effect on the only game play I care about. However, I do occasionally do regs (exclusively as anni) and that would be a massive unwarranted nerf to Annihilation.

 

Unwarranted. Game-breaking, indeed. What would rage marauders do if a rage jug could hit back as hard as they hit them? This would be catastrophic, we would feel bad for marauders. The qq would flow like a river of tears...

 

 

 

The point is people, that 30% area of effect damage reduction is powerful. Ask any of the classes who currently use it if they would be fine without it...they'll never concede to giving it up. Nor should they have to.

 

It's my opinion, that the people who have chosen their classes and spent time developing them, shouldn't be punished for enjoying that class' mechanics. The gameplay is important, and if you start nerfing classes, you'll have alot of pissed off players, who will be more likely to cancel their subscription.

 

What we need to do for our juggernaut class, is examine its effectiveness.

 

 

Currently, if you are specced as Rage, there are only a handfull of classes that are threatened by you. Granted there are certain classes that have access to the 30%, but do not select it(dumb), the point is that our single target damage is inconsistent. Perhaps we should look to more single target "control" options for Shii-Cho single saber users.

Suggestion::: "Force Crush additionally removes the target's applied shield".

 

Vengeance. This spec needs more threat emphasis placed on its internal bleed damage. Period. The damage needs to be condensed and strengthened. Vengeance needs a purpose on the battlefield as well. It has to be the "tank killer", akin to the marauder spec Carnage. Boosting the applications of our bleeds in this regard would be an excellent alternative. Suggestion::: "Shatter additionally removes the target's applied shield".

 

 

Immortal. The immortal technician, struts about boasting his HP values, and switches guards like a boss...............

Oh wait, you were expecting me to say jug tanks pose a threat on the battlefield? Geuss again. The tree has the least amount of damage potential in game. Now many would say " tanks don't need to dps". :rak_02:

Wrong.

Take a look at how effective the other tank class' dps outputs are and compare that to a jug's. Immortal has some nice abilities, but many are ridiculous. Namely the increased crit chance to retaliate. Really? An immortal tank's dps/crit values are so ridiculously low, ergo the boost from a "potential" crit are meaningless!! Additionally, retaliation is an effect of. getting. attacked. Jugs are granted a free use of retaliation after crushing blow, but what does that hit for...like 1-2k? In order for this ability to shine you need a braindead idiot to tunnel you, while you have saberward up, and your defensive stats are up....so you can simply tickle your aggressor with 1k strikes????? Retaliation's base damage should be boosted by at least 300%. Then we'd see some effects from the current synergy the immortal tree possesses. Suggestion::: "Crushing Blow additionally removes the target's applied shield".

 

 

Finally, we need more jug-specific attributes. All jugs need access to a shield-break mechanism, and internal damage dot on our force push. I need more theorycrafting on these possibilities, but universally speaking, when people see our jugs enter an arena....we need those other classes to be worried. We don't need to be the weakest link, in terms of viability.

 

We need to present the developers with realistic functionalities. We don't want to nerf other classes at all, we need better tools to stay competitive.

Edited December 13, 2013 by UndyingHadyn

[ConCube]

Finally, we need more jug-specific attributes. All jugs need access to a shield-break mechanism, and internal damage dot on our force push. I need more theorycrafting on these possibilities, but universally speaking, when people see our jugs enter an arena....we need those other classes to be worried. We don't need to be the weakest link, in terms of viability.

 

This.

 

For PvE I would say Shatter applies 5% armor penetration for 15 secs usable on Boss as well so we gain some value in raid-environments.

[Feddot]

What if shatter could be close to necrotic strike from wow? Something like "... increasing target's casttime by 25% and reducing healing it recive by 30%"?

 

PS

I really, really hope, that ravage root was not last thing, which we've got from BW.

[ConCube]

Retaliation is pretty useless for us atm, what if it refreshed all Dots ticking on the target? (To make this possible you should remove its requirement to get attacked or something like that)

 

Edit: Not to lead to misunderstanding, I'm referring to Vengeance.

Edited December 14, 2013 by ConCube

[ssfish]

Retaliation is pretty useless for us atm, what if it refreshed all Dots ticking on the target? (To make this possible you should remove its requirement to get attacked or something like that)

 

Edit: Not to lead to misunderstanding, I'm referring to Vengeance.

 

It's kind of silly that the spec line Vengeance makes no effective use of a reactionary ability titled Retaliation. The two words are close enough to be synonymous. Making Retal a worthwhile PvE ability could be difficult, but it should have some kind of added effect in PvP at the very least.

 

Refreshing DoTs would be pointless, as those are simply a byproduct of our main abilities - they should be getting refreshed essentially on cooldown anyways. Give Vengeance an Auto-Crit, or Rage cost reduction on it, or give it a chance to proc Rampage... something to breathe some life into the ability.

 

Alternately, to keep in line with your DoT idea, and to combine it with a thought I tossed about during the first go at Class Rep questions: Make it apply a Deathfield / Weakening Blast type debuff on your target, making your next XX DoT ticks hit for extra damage.

Edited December 14, 2013 by ssfish

[Maudril]

As far as vengeance goes, would still like to see a condensed more flowing and consistent rotation above anything else, which should increase its DPS by itself. Right now the spec is really pitter putter while Shatter and Impale are on CD and Ravage is not proccing. It really is the end of the damned world for your DPS if you cant consistently proc and land ravages, a move that can be shut down more consistently than it can be currently procced

 

If the spec needs to be so damned ravage-centric, then at least make ravage a bit consistent and hard to shut down. If my suggestion of making it channel time halved, then that would be hard to avoid. MAking it proc not too often would mean it would come out as a surprise, so the opponent needs to be real quick on the interrupt button to waste your proc.

The way I look at this ravage-centric spec is, if our damage needs to be so reliant upon a power, that power should not be able to be consistently shut down. Rage spec, not everyone has massive amounts of ways to shut down a smash. Ravage if you dont forcecharge first on the other hand, the enemy can throw out a stun, interrupt, or physics move to shut you down. Well, back to crossing fingers hoping one of our 9 or 12s cooldown powers procs it again! yay?

 

I see being ravage centric as being inherently flawed, but gotta deal with what you are dealt

 

I wanna like Vengeance, I really do. But its rotation feels like playing whack-a-mole with your quickbar, and too squishy and easily shut down in PVP, instead of being the guy who charges a tank or healer with singleminded intensity and is not easily dissuaded from his chosen target... hard to feel powerful when all your useful moves are on cooldown and you are just waiting for a proc.

Edited December 14, 2013 by Maudril

[Creslan]

Give retaliation a chance to proc off our dots at a reduced cost. You could tie it to destroyer and make it free like vicious throw. Also, increase destroyer to 45% chance instead of 30%. Same as every other proc execute talent.

 

Rampage should be a 45% chance to keep it in line wither other spec centric chances. I'm not sure why every other spec has 45% chance and we are stuck at 30%, it's a bit frustrating and needs to be changed. While removing the RNG would be a major achievement to the spec, I think they need to trim/combine some of the talents at the moment.

 

Perhaps add a 30% armor pen to Ravage and Impale on the accuracy talent, This would be a copy/paste of the Merc accuracy talent but would provide us with a nice boost to those two skills.

 

The Above would be all they could/would add on a patch update.

 

The goal on a full class revamp would be to make us less RNG reliant. Make ravage 15 sec cooldown, adjust rage costs accordingly on skills, remove the bloating in the tree, add passive armor pen to more abilities, perhaps some crit multiplier or increased crit chance on skills. That would be what to look for in a 3.0 update perhaps, 30% increase to dots on execution phase, so on. Even with a 15 sec Ravage and some of the above changes, our dps wouldn't be boosted as much as you think. A 15 sec ravage would put us in par with the current serverwide Guardian parse, he got lucky at a 14sec proc rate. The dps would be more consistent, not necessarily increased. Luck and a good RNG should not determine how this spec plays, sadly it does currently. 3.0 may change this, but I don't think an update will.

Edited December 14, 2013 by Creslan

[lordbadtamaru]

We need a fix. Whatever it is, should not affect our gearing strategy majorly however, reoptimizing again and again over class changes is annoying when your trying to get some 78s. So if they change setbonuses, 2pc 2pc needs to be viable.

[Arlanon]

So what if the new Ravage Root talent also included the half channel time and made Ravage uninterruptable.That may sound like a tall order, but hell look at Assassins. Every one of their talents does like 5 different things. If we are going to be Ravage Centric spec, then we should have Ravage support in our talents.

 

Or Take Pyro, for example. Every 6 seconds you get a free Rail Shot that ignores armor. And there is no way to shut that down aside from Saber Ward, and basic Defense/Shield. Right now Ravage is ridiculously simple to shut down. Heck, the cooldown on Disrupt is shorter than the internal cooldown on the Ravage Proc.

[ConCube]

So why are we making this thread, what are our possibilities to change something in the nearest future? Is another round of classquestions coming around the corner or are we just hoping with no real reason?