Between Bane and Sideous, Sith Must of Revealed themselves

[Foxtrotmikelima]

There seems to be a serious oversight of canon here. I know that routinely plotholes are left unfilled and its impossible to fill them all or address them. But this one for me seems to be an opportunity to show that not everything is explained or clear cut as they seem in the movies.

 

Point in case. The Rule of Two.

 

This rule was established by Dark Lord of the Sith Darth Bane. This was done during the ending days of the New Sith Wars, also known as the Jedi-Sith War, in which Bane fought as a foot soldier and then later as a Sith Warrior. After killing off the remaining Sith and its Leadership. For a solid decade or so Bane hid with Zannah his apprentice before being pursued by a group of Jedi. Defeating them and then tricking another group of Jedi into thinking a Darkside induced madman was the Sith Lord whom they quickly and easily killed. The two went back into hiding.

 

Even in light of this event involving Bane, Zannah and a number of Jedi. The Seventh Battle of Ruusan was still considered to be the end of the Sith.

 

And for the next thousand years the Sith would hide in the shadows preparing to destroy the Jedi and take over the Galaxy. So why then...or better How would Master Yoda and Master Mace Windu know of the Rule of Two in Episode I The Phantom Menace?

 

During the closing scenes of the movie. While observing the cremation of Master Qui Gon Jin. Master Yoda and Master Windu can be seen speaking of Darth Maul and how hes been confirmed as a Sith.

 

Master Yoda comments that there is no telling if he was the Master or the Apprentice and that there are always two, no more and no less.

 

This would insinuate that the Sith do not operate in large groups or are organized like the Jedi. But all evidence points to the contrary. The Jedi-Sith War and every war involving the Sith reflects that the Sith prior to Banes betrayal operated in the same manner that the Jedi did in style of organization. There was always a Leader, one stronger then the rest, amongst them and they were numerous. This game and KOTOR reflect this as well. Its also a long standing tradition amongst the Sith, even during Palpatine and Anakins time, for the Masters to have more then one Apprentice.

 

So if the Rule of Two was created in secret and those that started it were never caught and gave up this information. The question remains. How did this rule become known to the Jedi Council prior to Darth Maul revealing himself?

 

Obviously this is an oversight by Lucas and his writing staff (Lucas from my understanding endorses KOTOR as Canon and that was prior to the Rule of Two). But as for a canon answer. We need to look into the Star Wars Universe for something that makes sense. For me. It means that the Sith could not have kept themselves hidden the entire millennia regardless of the comments of individuals to the contrary and at some point. The Sith must have slipped up and revealed themselves. And once again, much like the Jedi overlook Bane and Zannahs conflict with the group of Jedi a decade plus after the Seventh Battle of Ruusan. Did not view it as a resurgence of the Sith like they did during the Blockade and Invasion of Naboo.

 

Please share your opinions below.

Edited December 7, 2013 by Foxtrotmikelima

[AshlaBoga]

Actually Lucas has said he's never read the books and considers them to be far less canon than the movies.

So if anything it's the books that "are mistaken, about a great many things."

[Little_Judas]

Book of Sith - Secrets from the Dark Side (by Daniel Wallace) gives the start to answer for that.

In the Part by Darth Bane himself titled Rule of Two, chapter: Striking From the Shadows.

On page 73 there is a sidenote from Master Quinlan Vos, from when he was studying the book during his time as a dark Acolyte under Darth Tyranus.

It goes like this:

The Jedi learned about the Rule of Two more than a century ago

from the cultist Kibh Jeen. Some of them didn't believe it. Now that

Obi-Wan's fight on Naboo has confirmed the truth, the jedi are ready

to face wathever the Sith are cooking up.

 

I've looked further into Jeen's story and tried to find a link between him and the Rule of Two and how he knew about it.

That it seems that Kibh Jeen during his time as Dark Jedi he affiliated himself with the Dark Force religion.

Which was a cult started by Darth Millennial after rejecting the Rule of Two.

And that's our link.

Rule of Two: (Master and Apprentice)

1st: Darth Bane and Darth Zannah

2nd: Darth Zannah and Darth Cognus

3rd: Darth Cognus and Darth Millennial (after Darth Millennial's defection she chose another Apprentice)

 

So the founder of the Dark Force cult was a third generation Apprentice of the Rule of Two, so his cult knew about its existence and therefore Kibh could learn about it.

 

 

And there you have it.

Edited December 7, 2013 by Little_Judas

[RaptorClown]

Actually Lucas has said he's never read the books and considers them to be far less canon than the movies.

So if anything it's the books that "are mistaken, about a great many things."

 

no1 takes lucas srs anymore anyway

[Foxtrotmikelima]

Actually Lucas has said he's never read the books and considers them to be far less canon than the movies.

So if anything it's the books that "are mistaken, about a great many things."

 

Lucas is full of it. He might not read every book. But I doubt he is unaware of the general concepts of the books when theyre signed off on.

 

Hes also very aware that huge fans of the movies and such follow the books and refer to them when dealing with things that arent shown or explained in the movies.

Edited December 7, 2013 by Foxtrotmikelima

[Selenial]

You'd get a better response in the Star Wars Discussion section, but they were pretty inconspicuous actually, they killed Jedi, frequently, and Jedi came close to discovering them... but weren't really revealed. The only reason the Sith were even revealed in the clone wars was Dooku and his big mouth.

 

Each Sith held high ranks, Tenebrous was a Star Ship engineer, incredible with Machinery, Plageuis a Business man, and Palpatine, obviously a Senator.... To name a few.

[DAWUSS]

You'd think someone's ego would have said "screw this, I'm taking over the galaxy!"

[Selenial]

You'd think someone's ego would have said "screw this, I'm taking over the galaxy!"

 

And his name was Darth Sidious.

[Forgon]

And his name was Darth Sidious.

 

This.

 

The op's main question has been answered already as far as lore is concerned. The only thing I think you could really argue is how believable that reasoning is.

[Foxtrotmikelima]

This.

 

The op's main question has been answered already as far as lore is concerned. The only thing I think you could really argue is how believable that reasoning is.

 

It is and it isnt. The Jedi prior to Sidious taking over the Republic considered every 'resurgence' of Sith after the Seventh Battle of Ruusan not a 'resurgence' at all. Granted before the Jedi-Sith War when Sith came around. They had an army to back it up. After that the rule of two was a complete spin on what the Sith had done in the past. No longer were they great in number, no longer did they threaten the Galaxy with grand armies. So I can kind of understand the arrogance of the Jedi in assuming what they faced with Bane and Zannah and the other appearances of Sith were nothing more then force-users that were not exposed to Jedi Teachings simply abusing their gifts. But none of the writers ever elaborate on the Jedi and their arrogance in a manner that would explain why they behaved this way.

Edited December 8, 2013 by Foxtrotmikelima

[RaptorClown]

Lucas is full of it. He might not read every book. But I doubt he is unaware of the general concepts of the books when theyre signed off on.

 

Hes also very aware that huge fans of the movies and such follow the books and refer to them when dealing with things that arent shown or explained in the movies.

 

lucas is dude who HAD an idea, now his idea is improved and no fan should rly care about his gibberish

[TrainingPigeon]

Book of Sith - Secrets from the Dark Side (by Daniel Wallace) gives the start to answer for that.

In the Part by Darth Bane himself titled Rule of Two, chapter: Striking From the Shadows.

On page 73 there is a sidenote from Master Quinlan Vos, from when he was studying the book during his time as a dark Acolyte under Darth Tyranus.

It goes like this:

The Jedi learned about the Rule of Two more than a century ago

from the cultist Kibh Jeen. Some of them didn't believe it. Now that

Obi-Wan's fight on Naboo has confirmed the truth, the jedi are ready

to face wathever the Sith are cooking up.

 

I've looked further into Jeen's story and tried to find a link between him and the Rule of Two and how he knew about it.

That it seems that Kibh Jeen during his time as Dark Jedi he affiliated himself with the Dark Force religion.

Which was a cult started by Darth Millennial after rejecting the Rule of Two.

And that's our link.

Rule of Two: (Master and Apprentice)

1st: Darth Bane and Darth Zannah

2nd: Darth Zannah and Darth Cognus

3rd: Darth Cognus and Darth Millennial (after Darth Millennial's defection she chose another Apprentice)

 

So the founder of the Dark Force cult was a third generation Apprentice of the Rule of Two, so his cult knew about its existence and therefore Kibh could learn about it.

 

 

And there you have it.

 

this is correct I read this or at least something along the lines with less detail in star wars darth plagueis book

[RaptorClown]

this book is 99$ and has just 160pages lol... with discount on amazon 60$...***

[StarMagus]

lucas is dude who HAD an idea, now his idea is improved and no fan should rly care about his gibberish

 

Yes and No. Some of the ideas are better, but some are worse. I mean Star Wars was always Sci-Fantasy, with the basic tale of Luke the Knight confronting the Evil Wizard and his Knight Champion in their tower. However much of the EU stuff took things even further into the realm of Fantasy with Future trappings tossed on it but not important to the story.

[captaincr]

To me its not out of the question that somewhere along the line the Jedi found a holocron, or someone who had done business with the Sith.

 

There was also a guy like Darth Gravid who went to the Jedi from the Sith after the rule of two was put in place.

 

As far as the grand plan of the Sith. They evolved from the blood thirsty warrior culture that they were prior to Bane and became more Jedi then the Jedi themselves. They learned patience to go with their cunning, they threw themselves into learning everything they could not only about the Dark Side of the Forth, but of the so called Jedi arts.

 

They were no longer evil personified, they were pure evil concentrated into two learning and evolving, but also patiently kicking the legs out from the Jedi one sliver at a time, until they got to Sideous who was as pure a representation of the dark side of the force as possible, just as the Jedi had a chosen one, Sideous really represented the will of the force, since he had the gift of being able to read the currents of the force, I'm making the assumption that the Force pretty much wanted the Jedi to be knocked down and destroyed to the last few so they could emerge changed.

 

The Jedi's arrogance caused the downfall of the order and the shifting of the force to darkness more then Sideous did.

[StarMagus]

Well I mean we know in real life that the best Marial Artists and swordsmen of the world are those that fight have gotten the chance to fight and test their abilities against others. Palatine was described as being a Master of all forms of Light Saber combat, which means he had to be out there actually fighting other people in light saber combat to get that good. Jedi can practice against each other, but Palps had his Master and then... his students. So only 1 other person at a time, which clearly wouldn't be enough.

 

So along with being a senator, studying sith magics and tomes and the like, he was also a wandering light saber duelist picking of Jedi one by one to hone his skills with the weapon.

 

Example: See how fast somebody who claims to be a nth degree blackbelt because they learned how to do Martial Arts from a book.

 

So now that we have established that Sith would have had to have fought with others ((non master apprentice)) from time to time to keep their skills as good as the Jedi who have lots of people to practice with, it seems like a no-brainer that the Sith aren't going to win every one of those fights and eventually one of them is going to get captured.

 

Sith also seem to be pretty chatty when they fight, so it wouldn't be impossible for one of them to let something like that slip during combat either.

Edited December 11, 2013 by StarMagus

[captaincr]

Part of what we're missing here is one line by Sdious when he's fighting Yoda "Your arrogance blinds you". It just seems after so much time that the Jedi believed that they were the only true masters of the Force in the Galaxy. It just feels like a couple of Sith could have walked into the Jedi Temple with name tags that read Hi my name is Sith. And the Jedi would have said "Nah your not Sith we wiped them out a 1000 years ago".

 

So whether they got information from a guy like Darth Gravid about the inner workings of the Sith, or found Darth Bane's holocron that focused on the rule of two, they wouldn't have made a connection to the return of the Sith, but they'd probably know about the rule of two.

 

In fact even after Qui-gon fought a Sith, Windu sat there and stated that he didn't believe that the Sith would return without them knowing.

 

The question of how the Jedi knew about the rule of two isn't relevant, they weren't going to add in a piece to the script where Yoda said "Two there are no more no less a master and a apprentice" only to have Mace turn to him and say "How do you know that my little honky" to which Yoda goes into a 10 minute monologue about finding the information.

 

Sometimes you have to just have faith in the prior history of a movie.

 

I'm not even sure that the Jedi believed that Maul was really a Sith. They didn't even make any real connections to the Sith until Revenge of the Sith.

 

They even had a Sith right in front of them in Dooku, a former powerful Jedi leading a war against the republic, and you get the real howler of a lline that he was merely a political idealist.

 

If they had truly believed that Maul was a Sith, then this war starts up pretty much right away you'd think that someone would go "That's weird" maybe we need to haul Dooku in because frankly he seems at the center of everything and he's a disgruntled former Jedi, oh and he was around when Sifo Dyas supposedly ordered the clone army, isn't that weird?

 

The whole point of whether the Jedi had the information on the rule of two was minor, they were unwilling through thier arrogance to do anything with that information.