So about these tank sin/shadow changes

[ZooMzy]

Pretty sure this is beating a dead horse at this point, but why didn't we get the changes promised in the patch notes?

 

It's kind of annoying having to make sure my 4 stacks maintain with only half a second to spare thanks to the CDs from Wither/Shock, since the stacks only last for 12 seconds instead of 18. Not to mention the fact that the proc bugs, and I can channel the full lightning and only get 3/4 of the stacks.

 

And what happened to the spec in armor increase? Only 20% of the 40% promised?

[DarthVengeant]

My guild leader tried using her 72/78 geared Sin tonight doing our Guild run of SM DF. She loged in after having spent 600 Ultimate comms on her Sin in the past few weeks in anticipation for this change only to find her increase was ONLY 1k! and just small percent to her armor!!!!!!!

 

She ended up switching to her Jugg because of these changes. They really screwed Sins up now. This is not what people were hoping for at all. The armor rating needs to be equal to what a Jugg and Powertech get!!!! PERIOD!

Edited December 4, 2013 by DarthVengeant

[sethdil]

The armor rating needs to be equal to what a Jugg and Powertech get!!!! PERIOD!

 

Only if the damage DPS that Sin/shadows can do is given to tanks!!! PERIOD!

 

It's an even playing field the Sin\Shadow can do more DPS than a full tank spec so if you want the armor rating that I have I want the damage output you have!!

[ZentheSecond]

My guild leader tried using her 72/78 geared Sin tonight doing our Guild run of SM DF. She loged in after having spent 600 Ultimate comms on her Sin in the past few weeks in anticipation for this change only to find her increase was ONLY 1k! and just small percent to her armor!!!!!!!

 

She ended up switching to her Jugg because of these changes. They really screwed Sins up now. This is not what people were hoping for at all. The armor rating needs to be equal to what a Jugg and Powertech get!!!! PERIOD!

 

Yeah go ahead and do that.

So my Sin will have 50% DR, with 57% shield chance w/ dark ward and 43% absorb.

 

I mean yeah, sure why not. It'll make Jugg and PTs useless. Why bring a PT who's got 50% DR but 30/30 for shield/absorb? Why bring a Jugg who gets to 52% DR with 30/30 shield/absorb? When you can bring a Sin who'd have 50% DR with 57/43 for shield/absorb? Times two cause you'd bring both tanks as Sin's with the same stats or close enough to the same.

 

Nevermind the fact that Juggs and PTs have less threat gen then a Sin-tank does. So why bring tanks that are more likely to loss threat to a dps then a Sin? Especially if the Sin has better mitigation then the PT/Jugg who generate poor threat?

Oh and to top it off, Can Jugg/PTs drop a little glowing field that lets healers heal for 5% more for 2 minutes while they sit in the circle?

 

Sin-Tanks are fine right now, it is a change that every Sin-tank will have to get use to.

Edited December 4, 2013 by ZentheSecond

[dakisback]

Yeah go ahead and do that.

So my Sin will have 50% DR, with 57% shield chance w/ dark ward and 43% absorb.

 

I mean yeah, sure why not. It'll make Jugg and PTs useless. Why bring a PT who's got 50% DR but 30/30 for shield/absorb? Why bring a Jugg who gets to 52% DR with 30/30 shield/absorb? When you can bring a Sin who'd have 50% DR with 57/43 for shield/absorb? Times two cause you'd bring both tanks as Sin's with the same stats or close enough to the same.

 

Nevermind the fact that Juggs and PTs have less threat gen then a Sin-tank does. So why bring tanks that are more likely to loss threat to a dps then a Sin? Especially if the Sin has better mitigation then the PT/Jugg who generate poor threat?

Oh and to top it off, Can Jugg/PTs drop a little glowing field that lets healers heal for 5% more for 2 minutes while they sit in the circle?

 

Sin-Tanks are fine right now, it is a change that every Sin-tank will have to get use to.

 

Juggs/PTs have 43/42 shield/absorb

 

next point pls.

[ZooMzy]

Yeah go ahead and do that.

So my Sin will have 50% DR, with 57% shield chance w/ dark ward and 43% absorb.

 

I mean yeah, sure why not. It'll make Jugg and PTs useless. Why bring a PT who's got 50% DR but 30/30 for shield/absorb? Why bring a Jugg who gets to 52% DR with 30/30 shield/absorb? When you can bring a Sin who'd have 50% DR with 57/43 for shield/absorb? Times two cause you'd bring both tanks as Sin's with the same stats or close enough to the same.

 

Nevermind the fact that Juggs and PTs have less threat gen then a Sin-tank does. So why bring tanks that are more likely to loss threat to a dps then a Sin? Especially if the Sin has better mitigation then the PT/Jugg who generate poor threat?

Oh and to top it off, Can Jugg/PTs drop a little glowing field that lets healers heal for 5% more for 2 minutes while they sit in the circle?

 

Sin-Tanks are fine right now, it is a change that every Sin-tank will have to get use to.

 

PT is debatable, but Jugs make better solo target tanks because a) threat management shouldn't be too difficult on a boss b) more defensive CDs than sins.

 

I see sin tanks either needing that 50% DR buff if EA insists on making those stacks ridiculous to maintain (you have to battle the GCD to make sure you maintain the 4, and to top it off, you might have a chance to lose a stack if you either start FL immediately after some other channel/stun, or if your tick gets resisted). To make the class actually viable again, you either do that or at least stretch the length of the 4 stacks to the actual amount they promised.

 

Even then, it's a somewhat moot point, as the real issue here is EA's failure to even live up to their word. 40% armor increase and an 18s proc to maintain were promised, and neither one were given when one of those two would make us viable for nightmare level tanking. Making sin tanks pretty much at the same as they were before, where the small boost in DR fills the loss in self heals and you don't really have an actual buff.

[ZentheSecond]

PT is debatable, but Jugs make better solo target tanks because a) threat management shouldn't be too difficult on a boss b) more defensive CDs than sins.

 

I see sin tanks either needing that 50% DR buff if EA insists on making those stacks ridiculous to maintain (you have to battle the GCD to make sure you maintain the 4, and to top it off, you might have a chance to lose a stack if you either start FL immediately after some other channel/stun, or if your tick gets resisted). To make the class actually viable again, you either do that or at least stretch the length of the 4 stacks to the actual amount they promised.

 

Even then, it's a somewhat moot point, as the real issue here is EA's failure to even live up to their word. 40% armor increase and an 18s proc to maintain were promised, and neither one were given when one of those two would make us viable for nightmare level tanking. Making sin tanks pretty much at the same as they were before, where the small boost in DR fills the loss in self heals and you don't really have an actual buff.

 

Jugg holding threat? I've yet to see one good enough to hold threat. My PT actually sits and waits for 5 seconds to start DPS'ing and I still rip Aggro after a Blade, Rail Shot, Rocket, Rail Shot combo. Same with any Sniper in our group, they just rip the aggro off a Jugg tank. My Assassin Tank will rip aggro off of my Jugg tank buddy with just Wither/Shock/Thrash combo. So yeah, ether I play with really bad Jugg tanks or the class itself has aggro issues in fights. Yet My Assassin will have aggro ripped maybe once over the course of an entire Operation, but yeah I have my rotation down pat for the Sin and maybe our Jugg tanks do not have their rotations down pat.

 

Those weren't the promised changes persay. They promised to redo Harnessed Darkness into Dark Protection, they did. They redid the one talent (Swelling Shadows I think) to give armor, they did. I do believe that all the numbers they gave at first, specifically the 40% armor, was subject to change based on their own testing and player testing. And in their own testing they obviously found something, or they looked at what KBN and dipstik did with the raw numbers, and realized that the changes as proposed were going to put Assassins and Shadows a tier above the other two Tank classes. I even did the math on my own Sin with their gear and it would put me (with 40% armor instead of 20%) to around 44% DR base without the stacks of Dark protection and my Sin is not in full 78 armoring. Now I sit at 39.7% armor before the Dark Protection and it will take roughly full 78 armorings to get base 40% (guildmate of mine is missing 2 pieces of 78 armoring and has I think he said 39.99% DR).

 

The issue I really want to see addressed is the resisted Force Lightning not granting a Dark Protection. I actually have a topic up in this forum section with a log showing the resisted tick not granting Dark protection, and how the Harnessed Darkness talent read pre2.5 and post2.5 as well. I think having that fixed, or at least addressed by a Bioware employee as to whether its intended or a bug. Will be a step in the right direction, then we can start seeing about increasing the Dark Protection duration, for that matter I think 15 seconds might be ideal as 18 seconds is a bit much and 12 seconds you are really dependent on RNG with energize proc to get another shock in, like its a tight as hell rotation to keep the stacks up I will admit. So increasing the duration by 3 seconds would give 2 more GCDs of wiggle room to Sins. While still kind of keeping Sins as a more skill-heavy and aware-heavy tank class to play.

 

/2cents

Edited December 5, 2013 by ZentheSecond

[ZooMzy]

Jugg holding threat? I've yet to see one good enough to hold threat. My PT actually sits and waits for 5 seconds to start DPS'ing and I still rip Aggro after a Blade, Rail Shot, Rocket, Rail Shot combo. Same with any Sniper in our group, they just rip the aggro off a Jugg tank. My Assassin Tank will rip aggro off of my Jugg tank buddy with just Wither/Shock/Thrash combo. So yeah, ether I play with really bad Jugg tanks or the class itself has aggro issues in fights. Yet My Assassin will have aggro ripped maybe once over the course of an entire Operation, but yeah I have my rotation down pat for the Sin and maybe our Jugg tanks do not have their rotations down pat.

 

You are running with pretty bad jugs then. The agro problem is only in the first few seconds in the fight, and if the Jug is good, then they know how to maintain threat.

 

I've only seen the boss ripped off a Jug once in the middle/towards the end of a fight, and that was because I popped everything I had as an epeen measuring contest on my overgeared Carnage Marauder versus his tank that was a tier below in gear.

 

Those weren't the promised changes persay. They promised to redo Harnessed Darkness into Dark Protection, they did. They redid the one talent (Swelling Shadows I think) to give armor, they did. I do believe that all the numbers they gave at first, specifically the 40% armor, was subject to change based on their own testing and player testing. And in their own testing they obviously found something, or they looked at what KBN and dipstik did with the raw numbers, and realized that the changes as proposed were going to put Assassins and Shadows a tier above the other two Tank classes. I even did the math on my own Sin with their gear and it would put me (with 40% armor instead of 20%) to around 44% DR base without the stacks of Dark protection and my Sin is not in full 78 armoring. Now I sit at 39.7% armor before the Dark Protection and it will take roughly full 78 armorings to get base 40% (guildmate of mine is missing 2 pieces of 78 armoring and has I think he said 39.99% DR).

 

The patch notes clearly state 40% spec into talent and 18 second proc, even before that with PTS. That's a promise, and EA did not deliver.

 

The problem isn't the mitigation, the problem is in the maintaining of the buff. You will lose it unless your alacrity is through the roof with GCD, and even then, it frequently bugs along with not giving you a stack if you time it wrong/get resisted. if it was at what it's promised, or even getting the spec into armor promised

 

The issue I really want to see addressed is the resisted Force Lightning not granting a Dark Protection. I actually have a topic up in this forum section with a log showing the resisted tick not granting Dark protection, and how the Harnessed Darkness talent read pre2.5 and post2.5 as well. I think having that fixed, or at least addressed by a Bioware employee as to whether its intended or a bug. Will be a step in the right direction, then we can start seeing about increasing the Dark Protection duration, for that matter I think 15 seconds might be ideal as 18 seconds is a bit much and 12 seconds you are really dependent on RNG with energize proc to get another shock in, like its a tight as hell rotation to keep the stacks up I will admit. So increasing the duration by 3 seconds would give 2 more GCDs of wiggle room to Sins. While still kind of keeping Sins as a more skill-heavy and aware-heavy tank class to play.

 

/2cents

 

They promised 18 seconds, making the buff a little bit easier to maintain. It's not too far of a stretch because the class takes a beyond tight check in making sure you use 2 specific abilities, and in order to make the class viable, you don't just make the super tight check only slightly longer to fit this elitist idea of having a tougher playstyle.

 

Either way doesn't matter to me, but 12 is too short. I would just prefer them to stick to their word, where they failed at two changes. Either one would make us viable for the skilled players, but both would satisfy the general player base.

Edited December 6, 2013 by ZooMzy

[Shivax]

It seems disjunction / mind over matter talent doesn't work properly? When I activate force shroud / resilience it still last 5sec, not 7, like it was stated in talent's description.

[IsapientiaI]

It seems disjunction / mind over matter talent doesn't work properly? When I activate force shroud / resilience it still last 5sec, not 7, like it was stated in talent's description.

 

the discription get's updated if you skill it...orig. force shroud lasts just 3 secs + 2 secs from disjunction and you have your 5 secs...