Hardmode queue time!

[Kalfear]

Quote: Originally Posted by Knorlac View Post

-Just attacking one mob in a group and letting the rest swarm me

 

That tells more about DPS not doing their job.

 

DPS Kill Order:

1) Anything that is attacking healer

2) Standard/Weak

3) Strong

4) Elite

5) Champion

 

yeah I was thinking same thing Hali.

That example Knorlac put forth was more about DPS then Tank.

 

Sometimes things slip by tanks

When that happens its up to DPS to react and grab the adds before they swarm the Healer

 

But as we talking about baffleing tanks (and to be clear, this didnt make me ignore the guy, just made me scratch head at how lacking understanding of other classes he was)

 

Was Czerka Meltdown HM (anyone else find meltdown pops like 70% of time for random hm, compared to other hms at 30% combined)

 

Was playing my scoundrel healer

me, guardian tank, 2 sents (actually get class set up for meltdown as they have to stick together which makes healing boss fights so much easier, in theory)

 

So I died like 3 times (on trash) because guardian leaps in, mobs rush me, no one picks up adds

So after 3rd time this happens Tank says

 

Tank "Healer, stop healing me until I have gotten agro"

Me "Ummmm I did no heals at all until after you pull, just need everyone to watch for adds and grab them"

Tank "You did to, I saw a healing dot on me"

 

At that point I stopped talking as was clue the tank had NO understanding of smuggler/agent healing style and that putting the hots on him before attacking was standard play and that they don't actually activate until AFTER he attacks and hopefully aoe taunts.

 

This was just clearly a case of bad tank not controlling agro properly combined with 2 sents that paid no attention to the mobs and picking up adds.

 

But in large scope of things this was minor for a PUG so not worth auguring over

 

PS: *** is a healing DOT? A healing damage over time! LOL

[Foambreaker]

While I agree that bad DPS can be frustrating, I've seen my share of bad tanks as well, especially while playing a healer.

 

-Just attacking one mob in a group and letting the rest swarm me

-Not waiting for my energy to recharge before pulling the next group

-rushing ahead without giving anyone a chance to heal up or even loot so I barely get to them before they die

-no knowledge of tactics (especially in Czerka Meltdown's desert environment dome, where we once had to let a mara do the tanking after the real tank managed to wipe us 3 times)

-attitude problems like raging at every small mistake and initiating a vote kick over nothing

 

All in all I'd say that bad/inexperienced DPS result in just as much, if not more stress for a healer who has to keep everyone up at the same time when aggro is all over the place. Yet I seldom see a healer leave unless there have been wipes, while tanks often seems to think: Screw the others who waited 45+ mins I'll get an insa pop anyways and just leave without saying a word.

 

I the context of Q times this is moot. Bad tanks don't cause bad tanks to stop Qing and the shortage is clearly tanks, we have healers and DPS in the excess.

 

If you people who are complaining don't like it then roll a tank and Q randoms.

 

/thread

[ccooknineofive]

answers above.

 

Well said! Exactly as I was thinking. Start by trying to help the player in need instead of just cutting them down. The success of this entire game depends on the quality of the community playing it!

[branmakmuffin]

Let's not forget:

 

- Healer/DPS: "Use your AoE taunt noob!" when tank hasn't reached level 30 yet.

I experienced this in BT SM (on level) once. Clearly lots of players have never even come close to remotely playing a tank.

Edited October 3, 2014 by branmakmuffin

[GavinPatterson]

Both sides have valid points, and I have played all three roles. I personal dislike to tank because I am generally teaching people about the fp, or raid. Educating doesn't bother me, but a majority of players take it has criticism and dont take it well. Reality is if I drop as a tank, and reque I'll find a better group...or drop the dps in question and theres always a new dps ready to go

As a dps, I've had maybe one tank leave....he was trying something new and was undergeared for a hmfp. He also attacked one mob at a time, and didn't even try to save heals.

As a healer, i've seen alot of stupid tanks, dps, and other heals. But we generally make it through.

SO I HAVE TWO SOLOUTIONS

1: a cross faction que...this may help in reducing wait-times. But this a reward incentive for every class would be good to. Everyone gets one unassembled item. That way everyone..including tanks would get a reward to there liking.

2: A buff option for one of the dps. It'd work just for the fp. A boost of armor and threat and endurance. That way three dps could que up with one healer.

[GRINnBARRETT]

I typically do dailies while I wait for queues. I don't even notice how long the wait time is (& it usually isn't more than 12-15 minutes). Maybe it's your server.

[Deewe]

As someone with a main Tank and main alt Healer:

 

 

If I would be able to advocate for one single thing to improve the situation:

• Multi speccing with one button quickslots and gear switching
  

 

 

 

 

Now, I play my tank mostly only doing PUGS.

It's not that I'm not in a guild, in fact I'm in one of the biggest on my server.

Then I seldom do OPs because of time.

Finally PUGs are FUN as I like meeting new people.

And with PUGS, as a tank I got mostly instantaneous queue popup

 

Annoying issues with PUGS

- DPS that try to lead the group

- Undergeared healers

- People that drop or get LD

- Loot distribution

 

 

Some DPS are way too good and geared for this game some are totally clueless or/and undergeared

Then 90% of the rest are nice people doing well.

Same for healers but then gear in HM might be of an issue as there's no alternate healer that can mitigate in case of issues.

Again for DPS even if you know the FP way better than the tank and you are overgeared, unless specifically requested by the thank, let him/her lead. Can't improve if you don't let them learn. Although it's ok to offer advice and most of the time appreciated.

 

One thing some DPS tend to forget is each tank has his/her way of pulling and handling aggro. Observe them on their firsts pulls and you'll be able to use the situation in the best possible ways.

For example for larger groups I usually saber thrown one mob, jumping on a second one while immediately taunting a third one then moving to a 4th one after landing and AOE, as such players with AOE can then kite all mobs that are now stacked on me. If you don't follow you'll kite the first mob not only alone but then off the group support.

 

Also don't know for everyone but I'm not always 100% efficient. Some days you don't know why but things goes wrong.

Your pulls sucks, you're not holding aggro, you spend your time chasing mobs between players, your healer gets trampled. Things like that happens only issue being as a tank (or healer) it can get nasty

 

Then again In all fairness if you want to lead, well roll a tank

 

 

 

Just know that as a DPS contrary to a healer or a tank if you screw up there's no alternate healer or thank that mitigate the issue.

 

 

 

Reminds me people being pissed off as I was playing an undergeared healer in HM, but hey can't earn ultimate tokens without playing HM FP, can we? And strangely wait times on healers are not that far from DPS. At least from my experience.

 

Now DPS or healers who sucks are not that common and usually ends in ignore lists... as tanks with bad behavior on my alts ^_^

 

Loot distribution is most of the time a no-brainer. People usually need on ups, decos, mats, vehicles, pets or specifically ask for need for look or alts.... but for some people who again ends on ignore lists.

Last example a guy who needed and won 2 emperor statues in a run lately

 

 

Then one issue too often forgotten is people getting LD.

After a certain time we should be able to temporarily replace them with companions while waiting for them to get back online. I've had people coming back on over 15 minutes later on and we waited because of the group menber was on phone with the guy.

 

Anyway my 2c

Edited October 3, 2014 by Deewe

[TrigPt]

Tank "Healer, stop healing me until I have gotten agro"

Me "Ummmm I did no heals at all until after you pull, just need everyone to watch for adds and grab them"

Tank "You did to, I saw a healing dot on me"

 

At that point I stopped talking as was clue the tank had NO understanding of smuggler/agent healing style and that putting the hots on him before attacking was standard play and that they don't actually activate until AFTER he attacks and hopefully aoe taunts.

 

 

I tried scoundrel healing for a couple of weeks and had this problem a lot. Nearly every fight I was pulling aggro at the start of fights. So I asked a guildie what I should do and he said if you're going to maintain HOTs before a pull then drop into stealth before the fight starts.

[Paintcheck]

Roll a tank/healer if you want to do flashpoints that badly instead of demanding that everyone else tank/heal for you. DPS have had this idea that they deserve to run flashpoints on demand since GF came out and I don't know why that is since there's 87 DPS for every tank who does flashpoints, and 83 of them suck balls.

 

Flashpoints aren't worth it once you're in the end game. There's nothing in a flashpoint I want, I don't need the comms since I'm regularly pulling the NiM dreads with my guild, so why would I waste time queuing up for what will at best be a boring, clean run through ancient content and at worst be a trial full of idiots wiping everywhere? I'm sure a lot of the experienced tanks feel the same way.

 

Which means you're left with mostly inexperienced tanks in the queue who then get *****ed at by the DPS and healers who then don't want to tank any more. Adding some incentive for tanks to queue for FPs would be nice (and no, Conquest does not count, most of the good tanks on my server couldn't care less about the Conquest rewards because they play this game to raid) but odds are all that will result in is a bunch of DPS queuing as tanks and doing a terrible job like they do already.

[Kalfear]

I tried scoundrel healing for a couple of weeks and had this problem a lot. Nearly every fight I was pulling aggro at the start of fights. So I asked a guildie what I should do and he said if you're going to maintain HOTs before a pull then drop into stealth before the fight starts.

 

might be correct, Ill try it

 

but fact of matter is Ive never seen it be a issue when Im playing my tanks or my DPS characters

 

Tanks AOE Taunt after starting fight

DPS makes sure to jump on any adds the tank doesnt gather

 

So ultimately a mute point as the problem with this group still came down to tank not taunting and 2 sents not grabbing any adds ever.

[Alec_Fortescue]

Need more options in operations queue, too!

[HelinCarnate]

Oh noes Mr Bill we are short 1 DPS....

 

Got a dime?

 

But then you would end up with 12 of them.

[HelinCarnate]

.....2: A buff option for one of the dps. It'd work just for the fp. A boost of armor and threat and endurance. That way three dps could que up with one healer.

 

And a reduction in damage. Otherwise people would go "Oh damnit we are stuck with a tank"

[HelinCarnate]

might be correct, Ill try it

 

but fact of matter is Ive never seen it be a issue when Im playing my tanks or my DPS characters

 

Tanks AOE Taunt after starting fight

DPS makes sure to jump on any adds the tank doesnt gather

 

So ultimately a mute point as the problem with this group still came down to tank not taunting and 2 sents not grabbing any adds ever.

 

Similar problem with merc/commando heals when they have a heal that goes off as soon as the tank takes damage. Tank jumps in, Im standing there doing nothing. Boom I have agro on anything not taunted or hit by the tank.

[tacito]

I have to say, it's been ages since I last had tanks drop group in the middle of a flashpoint. IF it happens, it's usually right at the start because they queued with a friend to put them at the top of the groupfinder list (instant invite thanks to tank in group -> tank drops -> replacement search with higher priority).

 

It's also been ages since I had any problems in a group when playing my own tank. No damage dealers so terrible we couldn't finish the flashpoint, no healers too bad to cope, just overall pretty normal. Only time I leave a group is if we wipe two times on the first boss of a flashpoint, for instance. If I'm doing "that one" Czerka flashpoint with the droid as first boss (I can, for the life of me, not memorize the names) and we hit the enrage timer on it two times (with 30% left), then there's not exactly a lot to be gained by continuing. Stuff like that.

 

What prevents me nine times out of ten from doing groupfinder runs isn't my trust in the abilities of other players, but rather just the time it takes. The difference between a run with damage dealers in 146 gear and 186 gear is tremendous. Thus, if I have a choice, I'll go with people from my guild... because it's going to be about twice as fast. Would some incentive for tanks/healers change that? Maybe... though at this point, I'm not sure what it should be. Additional ultimate comms? Eh, I'll take it, but I'm not going to queue for just 5 or 10 more. Gear? If it's NiM quality, sure. Otherwise... nice for companions, I guess. Credits? Hmm. An additional 50k or 75k as incentive would perhaps sway my mood.

 

I think the main problem is this: Tanking is a very unrewarding role to play if you're bad in it. And if you're good at tanking, you'll usually have a guild and ops group with whom you regularly play. That leads to a lot of high-quality gear from operations, which means you have jack all to gain from flashpoints. So what you end up with is the healer or dps alts of those tanks, all the healer and dps mains, and the bad and average tanks (plus every now and then a good tank without a guild for whatever reason). Perhaps that explains some experiences? I'm not sure.

 

Another thing that decreases "tank supply": Say you're a damage dealer and you're tired of waiting. If you can spec to healer, you might have some surplus accuracy, but all your other stats are going to "work" for you regardless. Meanwhile, if you want to tank, you need tanking gear. DPS gear is doing nothing for your tanking role, tanking gear is doing nothing for your dps role. The separation is just much sharper than between dps and healing.

Edited October 4, 2014 by tacito

[DawnAskham]

I have to say, it's been ages since I last had tanks drop group in the middle of a flashpoint. IF it happens, it's usually right at the start because they queued with a friend to put them at the top of the groupfinder list (instant invite thanks to tank in group -> tank drops -> replacement search with higher priority).

 

 

I had forgotten about the 'dps queue with tank to skip line' exploit - they need to implement something like an auto-kick for anyone grouped with another player that drops at the start.

 

Another thing that decreases "tank supply": Say you're a damage dealer and you're tired of waiting. If you can spec to healer, you might have some surplus accuracy, but all your other stats are going to "work" for you regardless. Meanwhile, if you want to tank, you need tanking gear. DPS gear is doing nothing for your tanking role, tanking gear is doing nothing for your dps role. The separation is just much sharper than between dps and healing.

 

This is one of the contributing factors for me in not spec-ing all my tank capable characters as tanks.

 

If they made gearing a tank easier through a combination of shared stats (between dps / tank) and better comm gear (most for tanks is garbage with low / no mitigation AT ALL) while introducing a 'saved spec' feature providing the ability to save and load a full spec including talents and abilities / keybinds / quickbars, I'd be more inclined to deal with all the other 'challenges' that come with tanking and play more of my characters as tanks.

 

But if Bioware just leaves it like it is where swapping specs isn't hard, but a hassle, and leaves the majority of gear available from comms and FP drops as garbage that is insulting to tanks, then there is a high likelihood I'll keep playing my tank capable characters as dps.

Edited October 4, 2014 by DawnAskham

[branmakmuffin]

I had forgotten about the 'dps queue with tank to skip line' exploit - they need to implement something like an auto-kick for anyone grouped with another player that drops at the start.

No. Take a moment to think and you'll understand why.

[jorill]

I tried scoundrel healing for a couple of weeks and had this problem a lot. Nearly every fight I was pulling aggro at the start of fights. So I asked a guildie what I should do and he said if you're going to maintain HOTs before a pull then drop into stealth before the fight starts.

 

What i do now for scoundrel healing in hm fp's now is stealth before pull, slow release medpac after pull, it pulls you out of stealth, you get 2 upperhand when dropping out of stealth, kolto pack, then 2nd srmp, i generally dont get swarmed too bad at that point. If dps is attacking what the tank is, then you are probably in trouble no matter what you do if there are other mobs in play

[EvenHardNiner]

How exactly does an MMO company address bad DPS, playing badly, such that tanks drop from group?

 

How exactly does and MMO company address bad DPS being on a tanks /ignore list OR tanks not wanting to random PUG with bad DPS?

 

When did an MMO company become a social welfare state for DPS?

 

Where on earth did this come from? How did you come to the conclusion that the OP is a bad dps? Or is this just your daily vent rage post at someone to make yourself feel better?

Edited October 5, 2014 by EvenHardNiner

[Darth_Wicked]

Where on earth did this come from? How did you come to the conclusion that the OP is a bad dps? Or is this just your daily vent rage post at someone to make yourself feel better?

 

That post is almost a year-old.

[CmdrShpd]

Similar problem with merc/commando heals when they have a heal that goes off as soon as the tank takes damage. Tank jumps in, Im standing there doing nothing. Boom I have agro on anything not taunted or hit by the tank.

 

This happens to me on my sage healer with no HOT's applied. It seems like most mobs default to attacking the healer, if they are not otherwise taunted by the tank or attacked by a DPS. That's my experience at least.

[Kalfear]

This happens to me on my sage healer with no HOT's applied. It seems like most mobs default to attacking the healer, if they are not otherwise taunted by the tank or attacked by a DPS. That's my experience at least.

 

Gotta admit I do get this alot with my sage healer as well

 

It got me in practice of standing at max range from main tank to ensure all dps have chance and time to grab adds should they blitz me.

 

In a guild group its never a issue

 

And in some gf groups its never a issue

 

but there is some pug groups that just do not get what their jobs are, or refuse to do them.

 

For Sage I am always ready to force bubble (Im terrible at ability names, the immunity one) should a large pack reach me. Putting up force bubble instantly drops any and all agro completely until bubble comes down.

 

I suspect EA put in new code that healers just have a higher threat level at start of any fight now because across the board (Sage, Inquiz, Commando, Merc, Scoundrel) Ive run into this issue of mobs blitzing at start of fight because anything done (sometimes med packs are on but sometimes not for scoundrel and same for commano/bh, sometimes the hot on but not always).

 

Strangely though its not a issue in ops (any mode) because I run with guildies (dont do pug ops) that know their jobs. Only ever a issue in GF Flash Points.

 

I will try the stealth trick for smuggler though. Hopefully that works for one of the group. Inquiz/BH/Commando are normally DPS so they only run into issue when respec. Sage has his immunity bubble. So its not a deal breaker. Just something you notice as a healer that is a huge identifier of group ability/skill from the get go.

[Foambreaker]

This happens to me on my sage healer with no HOT's applied. It seems like most mobs default to attacking the healer, if they are not otherwise taunted by the tank or attacked by a DPS. That's my experience at least.

 

The mobs agro defaults to the person who pulls.

 

If the person who pulled is a tank, they will stick on him with minimal AOE effort.

 

If the person who pulled is a DPS all the mobs that the DPS is not directly damaging will attack the healer.

 

It is that simple.

 

Also AOE taunt has ~45 second cool down depending on class, given the speed of runs that means it can be used every other trash pull.

[Kalfear]

The mobs agro defaults to the person who pulls.

 

If the person who pulled is a tank, they will stick on him with minimal AOE effort.

 

If the person who pulled is a DPS all the mobs that the DPS is not directly damaging will attack the healer.

 

It is that simple.

 

Also AOE taunt has ~45 second cool down depending on class, given the speed of runs that means it can be used every other trash pull.

 

no your wrong

 

The healers not pulling

The tank leaps in (or dps jumps shoots ahead) and they blitz the healer befopre healer does a single action

 

this has been going on for months

 

And is the reason healers get so upset about bad dps who do not pay attention to whats going on

[Foambreaker]

no your wrong

 

The healers not pulling

The tank leaps in (or dps jumps shoots ahead) and they blitz the healer befopre healer does a single action

 

this has been going on for months

 

And is the reason healers get so upset about bad dps who do not pay attention to whats going on

 

I didn't say the healer is pulling, the DPS is pulling, obviously.