Hardmode queue time!

[DarthTHC]

Hehe.. let me put on my best impression of a self-interested, self-entitled DPS for a moment and retort:

 

Apparently it is YOU that is on the wrong server. Ima have to have Bioware whip you into submission NAO! :p

 

Oh, I see how it is. You have to call on your employer to solve the problem for you!

 

(For the mods: This is a joke. I know Andryah is not a shill.)

Edited December 2, 2013 by DarthTHC

[Idunhavaname]

Be part of the solution. Roll a tank.

[naldoran]

Be part of the solution. Roll a tank.

Having more tanks won't solve anything if they all stop queuing for flashpoints upon discovering the complete lack of worthwhile rewards from the commendation vendor. As far as defensive stats go, people are better off sticking with old Underworld stuff than the junk purchasable with ultimate comms.

 

I really would like an answer from Bioware as to why it's possible to buy optimized mods for non-tank classes, but tanks get the short end of the stick.

[lordspyder]

It will be same on any MMO... been there, done that.

Pew pew is so easy, most of them never learn what CC is and how to get around it, what exactly this interrupt is used for, what to do if mob (basic one mostly) run to healer, where to stun, not to pull in amok & so on.

Last but not least most of them never learn that this is not WoW in space ... not all mobs are tank work here, in many cases dps has actually to burn/stun/interrupt some adds before even hit big ones tank keep.

 

It's not this bad everywhere else. In that other game that rules the market it wasn't close to this bad. Most other MMO's I play the DPS aren't this bad. It's something unique to TOR.

Oh sure you run into an idiot every few runs. Vote kick /ignore and it's over. Here my ignore list on my tanks is almost full. It is beyond belief that it is this way.

[Andryah]

Oh, I see how it is. You have to call on your employer to solve the problem for you!

 

(For the mods: This is a joke. I know Andryah is not a shill.)

 

LOL well I was doing my very best impression of the meta theme of -----> Bioware as social welfare state for DPS. How did I do?

[gorstram]

Personally, I'm not angry at DPS players.. I primarily play DPS.

 

But I am also "old-school" DPS.. in that I know my role, I play my role, and I play for the group.. not for me personally.

 

I support the tank (who picks the targets, calls the timing of the group engagement, and is as far as I am concerned the leader). I always keep close to the tanks healer and if necessary will peel agro off of the healer with a DPS dump even if it means I take a dirt nap for it. The tank and the healer must survive.. DPS are expendable (basic wipe avoidance 101, as is playing your role correctly).

 

I have no patience for DPS who care only for themselves, and complain that tanks and healers are not standing in queue at their beck and call for PUG play. Of course I don't PUG either.. I play with guildies and real life friends I actually know, trust, and enjoy playing with.

 

Now this is how DPS players should play. I'd tank for you any day, Andryah.

 

The other reason why there are so few tanks in queue are the comm limitations. No one wants to leave elite comms on the table. I run three pug HM FP's per week to complete the weekly, and that's it. I vastly out gear elite comm content, but I still don't want to lose any. My incentive for running HM FP's are those comms. I need another carrot to keep me queuing. Perhaps a random loot box with grade 9 crafting mods, purple 66 gear, a credit boom (a cartel market item that gives a random amount of credits), a mount, a pet, etc.

 

Incentivize queuing for essential classes, and there will be more representation of those classes. It's that simple.

[Mazikeen]

Having more tanks won't solve anything if they all stop queuing for flashpoints upon discovering the complete lack of worthwhile rewards from the commendation vendor.

 

Tanks stop queuing because of the horrid PuG experiences, not because of the lack of rewards. True tanks are tanks because they enjoy it and even when they max out their gear, they still tank. DPS (and some healers) that refuse to listen, pull for the group, can't handle their own aggro and are either demanding or rude make tanking not only frustrating but something some plain regret choosing to do.

[Mazikeen]

It's not this bad everywhere else. In that other game that rules the market it wasn't close to this bad. Most other MMO's I play the DPS aren't this bad. It's something unique to TOR.

 

I have been playing MMOs (and tanking) since 1999 and am flat-out telling you you're wrong. Tank shortages have been a problem for 15 years and will continue to be an issue as long as any sort of tank role exists.

 

WoW was just as bad but it was masked by the cross-server queues and DPS pretending to be tanks in content so easy that you could reasonably have a 4-DPS group (or was it 5?) and still blast through hardmodes.

 

DPS have been self-important tools since WoW released. The only reason they weren't this bad in EQ1 was because the community had rules it forced players to either follow or risk being ostracized. Try playing a MMO where no cross-server exists and everyone knows your name and that you're an unreliable tool. Add to this a server community that supports rejecting said person from all groups, raids and guilds. There was an incentive to either be a decent person or guild/group with other tools.

[ImpactHound]

Try playing a MMO where no cross-server exists and everyone knows your name and that you're an unreliable tool. Add to this a server community that supports rejecting said person from all groups, raids and guilds. There was an incentive to either be a decent person or guild/group with other tools.

 

That's supposed to be how it is in this game since launch. So why isn't it working?

[CommanderKeeva]

I didn't read through the 6 pages of this thread, but I will say that the weekly elite cap is largely exacerbating the queue time for DPS. After doing the three weeklies, most tanks stop going into the GF since there is no point in going over the weekly cap.

 

In my experience DPS wait time during prime time falls between 40 minutes and 1 hour. (Today, was an exception, I got a group in only 25 minutes.) In off hours, it can be anywhere between 1 and 2 hours. That is just personal experience, though.

 

So, yeah, no real solution to the problem so long as the tank role exists, but the queue time can be shortened significantly be removing the weekly cap and encouraging thereby the tanks to queue more often. I don't think xserver queues would solve this problem, since every server is suffering from this phenomenon. If you pulled all the servers together, you'd still have a hundred potential DPS for every tank, which wouldn't do any good.

 

EDIT: The only true solution to this is making more role-neutral flashpoints (which BW already seems to be doing btw), but it only further marginalizes tanks and healers.

Edited December 2, 2013 by CommanderKeeva

[Orduno]

Super early on, the devs said that grouping would be much less trinity-based and while having a tank would be good, it wouldn't be considered critical outside of raid-style play.

 

That worked out.

[Andryah]

Super early on, the devs said that grouping would be much less trinity-based and while having a tank would be good, it wouldn't be considered critical outside of raid-style play.

 

That worked out.

 

I think that was in reference to sub-level_cap small group (4 man) content.

 

This thread is about DPS wanting zero queue times for hardmodes.

 

Apples and earwax.

[ScarletBlaze]

I have a tank char, i play on it daily in hardmodes mostly to help people, i am not maxed on gear, but not far from. I am also leveling a guardian that i am going to have as tank, so please stop the "roll a tank" comments, and there is things BW can do, they can reward tanks and healers more then DPS to make it more tempting to play one. I think it is really bad when DPS good or bad has to wait a hour to get a hardmode pop, and even then it is not set in stone that the tank will even enter because they don't like the FP.

 

 

I have a healer and there really isn't anything BW can do to get me to PUG. I have done it once or twice and the headaches in those no thank you. I rather group with my guild and friends than ever PUG again. No reward would ever be worth it to me.

[Mazikeen]

That's supposed to be how it is in this game since launch. So why isn't it working?

 

Because the people that want a real community back down when the immature tools complain. I can't tell you how many times someone in general chat will have a legitimate, sensible point to make and they get mocked by so many people that the person just goes elsewhere or turns general chat off.

 

People who DO have standards and refuse to back down tend to get friction from the majority.

[JasonNH]

I didn't read through the 6 pages of this thread, but I will say that the weekly elite cap is largely exacerbating the queue time for DPS. After doing the three weeklies, most tanks stop going into the GF since there is no point in going over the weekly cap.

 

I'm afraid the picture is worse than that. You can raise the cap on elite comms all you want, but so long as the tanking gear that you obtain from elite comms is crap, I'll still have no incentive to grind for them on my tanks.

 

*edit* Also, what ScarletBlaze said.

Edited December 2, 2013 by JasonNH

[Brewski]

Tanks stop queuing because of the horrid PuG experiences, not because of the lack of rewards. True tanks are tanks because they enjoy it and even when they max out their gear, they still tank. DPS (and some healers) that refuse to listen, pull for the group, can't handle their own aggro and are either demanding or rude make tanking not only frustrating but something some plain regret choosing to do.

This.

 

As someone who used to tank for PUGs, I gave up not because of a lack of rewards or any other related reason, I gave it up because of abuse from crappy PUGs.

 

Note that I did not say bad PUGs. I've had those in every role, and I will take a good number of wipes before quitting if the group is at least trying and getting along. It's the abusive ones who annoy me and end up on my ignore list.

 

Now I tank for friends and guildies, and if I need to pug I do heals or DPS, and I always follow the tanks lead and concentrate on making sure I do a good job in my role. Less stress, less annoyance, and more fun, which is why we play. (In theory.)

 

If you aren't happy with the queue times, try this. The next time you get a good PUG tank, make sure to tell them that, then add them to your FL and next time you see them on, offer to group up before queuing if they intend to. I know as a tank that I appreciated having good DPS who they know won't get abusive at the first wipe, no matter who caused it. I did this while leveling my sorc, and let me tell you that queuing with a healer/tank combo leads to some pretty awesome (i.e. near instant) queue pops.

[Orduno]

I think that was in reference to sub-level_cap small group (4 man) content.

 

This thread is about DPS wanting zero queue times for hardmodes.

 

Apples and earwax.

 

Well, not really - on both counts. It was about non-ops instances (endlevel hardmodes included), and my point was that if tank population wasn't a bottleneck, there wouldn't be large queue times for DPS. I wasn't aware this thread was about "DPS wanting zero queues times for hardmodes" though. Pretty interesting stuff.

[Icebergy]

I will say that the weekly elite cap is largely exacerbating the queue time for DPS. After doing the three weeklies, most tanks stop going into the GF since there is no point in going over the weekly cap.

 

That reason does not even register on the list of factors of why I will not tank for PuGs. The Ultimate comm cap doesn't even factor into my decision not to tank for PuGs, let alone the Elite comms cap.

[Mazikeen]

I'm afraid the picture is worse than that. You can raise the cap on elite comms all you want, but so long as the tanking gear that you obtain from elite comms is crap, I'll still have no incentive to grind for them on my tanks.

 

I have had no issues with the gear from Elite comms on my Powertech. Sure, the implants/earpieces suck but I buy those off the GTN, they have lower endurance but higher mitigation. Some of the enhancements/mods suck but I either use ones from my 69 gear or buy a cheaper item (boots/gloves, etc) and use the parts from those.

[lordspyder]

I have been playing MMOs (and tanking) since 1999 and am flat-out telling you you're wrong. Tank shortages have been a problem for 15 years and will continue to be an issue as long as any sort of tank role exists.

 

WoW was just as bad but it was masked by the cross-server queues and DPS pretending to be tanks in content so easy that you could reasonably have a 4-DPS group (or was it 5?) and still blast through hardmodes.

 

DPS have been self-important tools since WoW released. The only reason they weren't this bad in EQ1 was because the community had rules it forced players to either follow or risk being ostracized. Try playing a MMO where no cross-server exists and everyone knows your name and that you're an unreliable tool. Add to this a server community that supports rejecting said person from all groups, raids and guilds. There was an incentive to either be a decent person or guild/group with other tools.

 

You misunderstand me, I know there always has been an insane wait for DPS, but in other games WoW included the DPS didn't rise to the rude and inept levels we see here. I have about had it with this game. Not because of the mechanics or Cartel Market or game engine chosen, but because of the community.

 

DPS here blow plain and simple and we as a community don't bother to try to hold them up to a higher standard. 9 out of 10 times I'm dealing with a DPS who keeps pulling and I ask them not to I get "LOLZ Lernz 2 play, Tank!" from the other DPS. If I call some one out on ninja looting the other DPS tells me "You such a whiner, just pull"

 

It is a real epidemic and it's sad that we let it get this way by apathy and not policing our own. People just don't give a **** and it's sad I want to keep playing. I love this game when I have a group that works well together, But I can't keep taking this abuse as a tank. I'll move on and sadly that is what we a re seeing here. people are just moving on.

[ImpactHound]

Super early on, the devs said that grouping would be much less trinity-based and while having a tank would be good, it wouldn't be considered critical outside of raid-style play.

 

That worked out.

 

Which is sad, because it could have. City of Heroes had tankers and brutes to be meatshields, but it was very possible to run nearly all content if the rest of the group supported each other and used the inspiration system effectively. Scrappers could also fill the tank role if they built for it, and it wasn't unheard of for the suport classes to stack toa full group and just be buffed to near infinity and roll content that way.

[CommanderKeeva]

That reason does not even register on the list of factors of why I will not tank for PuGs. The Ultimate comm cap doesn't even factor into my decision not to tank for PuGs, let alone the Elite comms cap.

 

I wasn't making a comment about you or any tank specifically. Obviously, if a tank simply does not want to PuG no matter what, then there's nothing we can do about it. It's the players' choice.

 

But I was making a suggestion for the tanks that DO PuG. Because after all the complaining about DPS queue times is said and done, most DPS do get a group eventually, so that means there's a number of tanks out there willing to risk going into the group finder.

 

Now most of those tanks stop queuing after three flashpoints so as not to go over the Elite comm limit. You might not need Elite comms, but they are far from worthless. You can still buy 72 gear for alts and companions (which is currently sufficient for HM Dread Ops) or buy Mass Manipulation Generators that you can sell later on the GTN for money. Removing or significantly raising the commendation cap would encourage tanks who already use the group finder to do so more often, for example once every day instead of three times a week.

[CaraExas]

what do you guys mean lack of tanks...there are lots of l33t smashbro maras out there that are more then happy to tank for you.

[Mazikeen]

You misunderstand me, I know there always has been an insane wait for DPS, but in other games WoW included the DPS didn't rise to the rude and inept levels we see here

 

Yes, it was this bad. WoW was actually the main cause for MMO communities becoming what they have become. People like to tout the numbers WoW had as proof of it's success but they tend to ignore the fact that behavior is like a disease... the more people you expose to it the greater the chance it will spread.

 

WoW turned MMO gaming from an elite gamers way to play (UO and EQ1 were not for the faint-hearted) into a 'family-friendly', more casual gaming option. WoW also reduced the time and thought needed to advance your characters, made it less punishing when you screwed up and allowed the entire Leeroy Jenkins crowd to develop.

 

Because of WoWs numbers MMOs now follow their template, some more narrowly than others. MMO gaming has become a sad shadow of what it once was and to be honest, I play only because I can't stand dealing with the same stupidity you see online in real life. At least online I can't risk jail time by stabbing someone for being a tool.

[CommanderKeeva]

I'm afraid the picture is worse than that. You can raise the cap on elite comms all you want, but so long as the tanking gear that you obtain from elite comms is crap, I'll still have no incentive to grind for them on my tanks.

 

*edit* Also, what ScarletBlaze said.

 

I agree that the Accuracy/Absorption and Absorption/Alacrity mods make for horrible tanking gear. Commendation and dropped gear in general is terrible. DPS require Accuracy/Power mods and I don't think those drop from Flashpoints either. (At least I've not seen such a drop yet.) Healers need Alacrity/Power stuff but those are nonexistent as well.

 

Nearly every piece that is supposed to be for a DPS or Healer has Critical and Alacrity. And those are largely useless. Granted, some Critical can be requisite (especially for a Healer) but not nearly in the quantity that seems to be dropping from Flashpoints.

 

Sometimes you get Power/Surge stuff and those are usually hotly contested between DPS and Healers, but those are the more rare drops. Most of the it's just tons and tons of Critical/Alacrity.

 

The gear system in general needs a big overhaul with more optimized mods. And like I said, raising the Elite cap wouldn't solve the wait time "issue", as it is something that cannot be solved without drastic measures. It would merely encourage the tanks that already queue for whatever reason to do so again. An incentive to queue beyond the weekly quest would be a reasonable request.

 

(There's nothing more annoying than whispering to a tank friend: "Hey, wanna do a HM FP?" and getting the answer: "No, sorry, already done the weekly.")

Edited December 2, 2013 by CommanderKeeva