2 Years of sub... where is the box sized expansion?

[chuixupu]

Gw2 is a failure. Revenue is dropping alot aswell as population. They will have to launch an expansion or a sequal to stay afloat. Why? Cause it makes money.

 

Proof?

 

EVE is a special case. Its a cheap game to develop and its a different kind of MMO. I made sure to mention MMORPG because of that. In essence EVE is more a game an RTS than a MMORPG. Also, it makes profit, but nothing that would turn heads at EA, wich is the publisher were dealing with here.

Expansions make money, and thats the truth of it. The current model we are in is a slow death. The model with an expansion is an up and down one, but makes more money and brings players back. Regardless, even if it was digital only i would be happy, aslong as it was a meaty expansion that could make ripples that the gaming community would see.

 

So what other MMO are you thinking of, other than WoW, which is the real exception in the market?

[Tsillah]

Proof?

 

Will this do for you?

 

http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/11/15/ncsoft-takes-a-financial-hit-in-q3-2013/

 

It specifically mentions that GW2 drops in sales yet again.

[Vandicus]

Why would anyone want a boxed expansion? Its simply a different way of packaging content, and one that means you have to pay another $40-50. Not to mention it means we get most of the content later than we would have otherwise.

[Nemmar]

Proof?

 

 

 

So what other MMO are you thinking of, other than WoW, which is the real exception in the market?

 

I'm not thinking there is any exception. All major MMORPG's released boxed expansion. When they dont is because they cant afford to develop them anymore. But, this game sold 2 million. I'm sure an expansion would sell at least a million copies. That plus new subs and store purchases would make very worthwhile, while keeping current players satisfied.

 

As i said, we have a problem atm. That problem is all the content we are getting are daily areas, and op or a flashpoint or an arena/warzone. I would like to know if you think this will keep the game afloat for many years to come.

I swear, its like asking for more content and more exposure to the game is a bad thing. If you guys have a better plan then lets hear it.

[Nemmar]

Why would anyone want a boxed expansion? Its simply a different way of packaging content, and one that means you have to pay another $40-50. Not to mention it means we get most of the content later than we would have otherwise.

 

Then you find a better term for it. I want an expansion equivalent in size to a boxed expansion. Happy? Or is the need to continue to criticise the term used more important than the content of the post?

 

And yes i would happily pay another 40-50 instead of having to sub an extra 4-5 months and getting only a flashpoint and a daily area. The idea is that you would get MORE content than you would with the small patches that hardly add anything.

Edited November 30, 2013 by Nemmar

[Vandicus]

I'm not thinking there is any exception. All major MMORPG's released boxed expansion. When they dont is because they cant afford to develop them anymore. But, this game sold 2 million. I'm sure an expansion would sell at least a million copies. That plus new subs and store purchases would make very worthwhile, while keeping current players satisfied.

 

As i said, we have a problem atm. That problem is all the content we are getting are daily areas, and op or a flashpoint or an arena/warzone. I would like to know if you think this will keep the game afloat for many years to come.

I swear, its like asking for more content and more exposure to the game is a bad thing. If you guys have a better plan then lets hear it.

 

You're mistaken if you think boxed expansions mean more content. Its simply saved up content packaged and then sold(like WoW taking an 11 month development hiatus to work on MoP).

 

We've also gotten Makeb and are just about to get Galactic Starfighter.

 

Datamines indicate Yavin 4, Ziost, Bothawui, and Sleheyron, are under development as what may be player housing. Now personally I'd rather receive these when they finish development , not a year later so that they can hype the game.

[Vandicus]

Then you find a better term for it. I want an expansion equivalent in size to a boxed expansion. Happy? Or is the need to continue to criticise the term used more important than the content of the post?

 

And yes i would happily pay another 40-50 instead of having to sub an extra 4-5 months and getting only a flashpoint and a daily area.

 

My post has nothing to do with the terminology used, but rather the content packaging method. Regardless of whether its in a box or not(we both know the expansion size we're talking about), box-sized expansions are simply saved up content released all at once with an extra fee on top. SWTOR is pretty much releasing stuff as its made(with a delay time of a couple months at most, versus major xpacs which can have delay time of a year+), which is beneficial to us as players. The only advantage to saving up content and releasing it all at once is the PR side. However, delaying content release can also cause the game to bleed players.

[Nemmar]

You're mistaken if you think boxed expansions mean more content. Its simply saved up content packaged and then sold(like WoW taking an 11 month development hiatus to work on MoP).

 

We've also gotten Makeb and are just about to get Galactic Starfighter.

 

Datamines indicate Yavin 4, Ziost, Bothawui, and Sleheyron, are under development as what may be player housing. Now personally I'd rather receive these when they finish development , not a year later so that they can hype the game.

 

Cmon... take a moment to think here. A "payed" expansion since the term box is so shunned upon, means they can have more staff working on it and it will include more content than the small patches we have been getting over the course of the same time. Oh and did i mention that Bioware/EA would get more revenue from it? Yes, there is no logical reason to resist it.

Edited November 30, 2013 by Nemmar

[Itkovian]

Wha????

 

What you gonna put in that box?

 

A sword, of course.

 

[Nemmar]

A sword, of course.

 

 

A lightsaber.

[Andryah]

No one burns through content in a month like you had said in a previous post. And the people who want large boxed xpacs aren't looking for something they can consume and then unsub from.

 

The reference standard in the industry for boxed expacs is WoW. Millions of players burn through a new expac in 3-4 months on WoW and then unsub and wait for the next one to drop in 24-30 months.

 

This is what WoW has conditioned the player base to be and do. Prior to WoW... people played MMOs persistently, and waited patiently for a boxed expac and then played it persistently. But the market has changed, largely due to WoW and to single player console games having trained the player base to be much more consume and discard mind set thinking.

 

Not every player of course.. but there are literally millions of MMO players that operate on the consume and discard model in the genre today. One of the better ways to mitigate this from a business perspective is to do more frequent smaller expacs. The business model being followed by Bioware addresses this rather well IMO. EVE avoided much of this through the core nature of how the game rewards persistent play.. which themepark MMOs simply cannot do.

Edited November 30, 2013 by Andryah

[Nemmar]

My post has nothing to do with the terminology used, but rather the content packaging method. Regardless of whether its in a box or not(we both know the expansion size we're talking about), box-sized expansions are simply saved up content released all at once with an extra fee on top. SWTOR is pretty much releasing stuff as its made(with a delay time of a couple months at most, versus major xpacs which can have delay time of a year+), which is beneficial to us as players. The only advantage to saving up content and releasing it all at once is the PR side. However, delaying content release can also cause the game to bleed players.

 

I already posted this, but that is not true at all.

 

A boxed/payed expansion generates more revenue. That means they can have more staff and develop more stuff than they normally would.

A WoW expansion is not comparable to the patches they receive during one year. They get 2 raids and two daily areas. The expansion adds much more than that and several new areas. So, no. Its not just withheld content that they arent giving you. How can you even conclude that, when theres no example of that?

[Nemmar]

The reference standard in the industry for boxed expacs is WoW. Millions of players burn through a new expac in 3-4 months on WoW and then unsub and wait for the next one to drop in 24-30 months.

 

This is what WoW has conditioned the player base to be and do. Prior to WoW... people played MMOs persistently, and waited patiently for a boxed expac and then played it persistently. But the market has changed, largely due to WoW and to single player console games having trained the player base to be much more consume and discard mind set thinking.

 

Not every player of course.. but there are literally millions of MMO players that operate on the consume and discard model in the genre today. One of the better ways to mitigate this from a business perspective is to do more frequent smaller expacs. The business model being followed by Bioware addresses this rather well IMO. EVE avoided much of this through the core nature of how the game rewards persistent play.. which themepark MMOs simply cannot do.

 

Even if that is what happens. How exactly would it be bad for the players of SWTOR or for Bioware? Why do you think Blizzard keeps doing it?

Edited November 30, 2013 by Nemmar

[Tsillah]

I'm not thinking there is any exception. All major MMORPG's released boxed expansion. When they dont is because they cant afford to develop them anymore. But, this game sold 2 million. I'm sure an expansion would sell at least a million copies. That plus new subs and store purchases would make very worthwhile, while keeping current players satisfied.

 

As i said, we have a problem atm. That problem is all the content we are getting are daily areas, and op or a flashpoint or an arena/warzone. I would like to know if you think this will keep the game afloat for many years to come.

I swear, its like asking for more content and more exposure to the game is a bad thing. If you guys have a better plan then lets hear it.

 

Aion had digital expansions. They only released a new version of the boxed version once when an expansion came out but it was a free download for all subs at the time just the same.

 

Also Galactic Starfighter is coming out on Tuesday which adds a whole new dimension to the game. Let's not forget that SWTOR almost fell apart last year and that it's taken some major things to get this game back on track. They've added a lot of things this year and we've had to be a bit patient because well they had to save the game and not go crazy on the cost side at the same time.

 

For me this game offers a lot and I see myself playing for a while yet, probably years to come. It does need new content added regularly but they are doing that. Having said that, I do share some of your concerns. Oricon is pretty good but I don't do the dailies on Belsavis, Section X or Makeb at all. Oricon was a welcome addition but I also am not looking for more and more daily areas.

 

GS will be a good addition and I also hope that they will go towards player housing, even if it's just for your ship, as a next expansion on activities in game. I will be interested to see what comes in the future as far as events are concerned and I am sure another level cap raise will come. Flash Points have become virtually pointless since you can get 69 gear much easier with dailies and sm operations. So yeh there are some unknowns and some things that can improve.

 

I do think SWTOR can last for many years still, but I do think that some things need to be overhauled and new activities added. Still, they have already done some of that and the GS expansion is another step in that. My view is that year 1 of the game was a bad start, year 2 the game was saved and next year should be a defining year for the long term. If they can do that this coming year I think we'll be in a good spot.

 

Then we'll see what the release of Episode VII will do the year after for everythin Star Wars related

[Vandicus]

Cmon... take a moment to think here. A "payed" expansion since the term box is so shunned upon, means they can have more staff working on it and it will include more content than the small patches we have been getting over the course of the same time. Oh and did i mention that Bioware/EA would get more revenue from it? Yes, there is no logical reason to resist it.

 

Lets take your 1 million sales number.

 

Say they sell the box at $50. You're looking at $50 million in revenue(closer to $20 million if actually delivered through stores).

 

Lets consider current revenue streams. Statements put us somewhere upwards of 1 million subs worth of revenue. So we're talking about $15 million a month.

 

Now look at our current content stream. $180 million a year brings us XXX amount of content over the past year.

 

Is that enough content to be equal to a boxed expansion? Maybe, maybe it needs more.

 

Assuming its about right, there's no way $50 million in revenue would fund enough additional content to be considered a box-sized paid expansion.

 

Experience with other games also teaches us that the developers don't really do that much extra content, if any at all(sometimes you have developers who stop all non-expansion content development entirely for long stretches of time) because of the revenue from the paid expansions.

 

If I believed that a $50 paid expansion would result in a lot of additional content, I'd totally support it. Past experience and empirical evidence show that this is highly unlikely though.

[Andryah]

A boxed/payed expansion generates more revenue. That means they can have more staff and develop more stuff than they normally would.

 

It's not just about revenue, it's about profit.

 

Apples to apples (ie: size) a digital expac generates more profit per dollar of revenue as it has almost zero distribution costs.

 

You are continuing to ignore what Vandicus is telling you.... boxed distribution methodology is moving fast toward obsolescence in the market. Inventory space on retail shelves being one of the major reasons as large distributers are required to incent (as in pay real $$ or forfeit more profit from sales) access to shelf space with retail merchants.

 

AND the natural tension to digital expansions is the size of the downloads. Boxed distribution makes for easier and more timely install.. but again.. market forces are driving it obsolete. So.. more frequent yet smaller digital expacs makes a lot more sense in the broader appeal to the market. Just because you want large boxed expacs.... does not meant that is the optimal and best way to update MMO via expacs in the modern era.

Edited November 30, 2013 by Andryah

[Vandicus]

I already posted this, but that is not true at all.

 

A boxed/payed expansion generates more revenue. That means they can have more staff and develop more stuff than they normally would.

A WoW expansion is not comparable to the patches they receive during one year. They get 2 raids and two daily areas. The expansion adds much more than that and several new areas. So, no. Its not just withheld content that they arent giving you. How can you even conclude that, when theres no example of that?

 

WoW took an 11 month development hiatus to make MoP.

 

MMOs are expected to be delivering content continuously.

 

SWTOR was originally planning on doing larger and fewer content updates, along with expansions. However, they changed their model to the 6-8 week content development cycle. If they were to develop large expansions, they'd need a much longer development cycle, and a lot of finished content would just be sitting there(this happens already in order to make their schedules attainable, but it usually only sits for a couple weeks or less).

 

Larger updates mean longer development cycles mean things that are already finished are waiting on the sidelines.

[Tsillah]

A boxed/payed expansion generates more revenue.

 

Revenue is only interesting if it generates profit. That's more important in the end. A boxed expansion also generates a lot of costs. That's the part you seem to ignore. BW have gone a way where they do smaller expansions digitally. What that does is give people something to look forward to in the near future all the time.

 

A big expansion will bring people back and after 1 or 2 months they will have finished that content again and leave again till the next expansion comes out. I don't think that is beneficial to have that fluctuation. With regular releases at least the population can be more consistent which is also important. MMOs need two things: profit to make the game viable and enough population so it can fulfill the promis of an MMO for the players. People who buy expansions once every 1-2 years may generate some income but not stable population.

[Nemmar]

Lets take your 1 million sales number.

 

Say they sell the box at $50. You're looking at $50 million in revenue(closer to $20 million if actually delivered through stores).

 

Lets consider current revenue streams. Statements put us somewhere upwards of 1 million subs worth of revenue. So we're talking about $15 million a month.

 

Now look at our current content stream. $180 million a year brings us XXX amount of content over the past year.

 

Is that enough content to be equal to a boxed expansion? Maybe, maybe it needs more.

 

Assuming its about right, there's no way $50 million in revenue would fund enough additional content to be considered a box-sized paid expansion.

 

Experience with other games also teaches us that the developers don't really do that much extra content, if any at all(sometimes you have developers who stop all non-expansion content development entirely for long stretches of time) because of the revenue from the paid expansions.

 

If I believed that a $50 paid expansion would result in a lot of additional content, I'd totally support it. Past experience and empirical evidence show that this is highly unlikely though.

 

I understand your ratinale, but its been confirmed the number of subs is below 500k in the latest EA report. An expansion is necessary to inflate the numbers. Even if only temporarely. more money is more support for the game.

Edited November 30, 2013 by Nemmar

[Vandicus]

I understand your ratinale, but its been confirmed the number of subs is below 500k in the latest EA report.

 

And revenue reportedly doubled when we went f2p.

 

Ergo revenue is floating around that of 1 million subs(twice the minimum number of subs we had at f2p launch).

 

The revenue would be from the CM.

[Nemmar]

It's not just about revenue, it's about profit.

 

Apples to apples (ie: size) a digital expac generates more profit per dollar of revenue as it has almost zero distribution costs.

 

You are continuing to ignore what Vandicus is telling you.... boxed distribution methodology is moving fast toward obsolescence in the market. Inventory space on retail shelves being one of the major reasons as large distributers are required to incent (as in pay real $$ or forfeit more profit from sales) access to shelf space with retail merchants.

 

AND the natural tension to digital expansions is the size of the downloads. Boxed distribution makes for easier and more timely install.. but again.. market forces are driving it obsolete. So.. more frequent yet smaller digital expacs makes a lot more sense in the broader appeal to the market. Just because you want large boxed expacs.... does not meant that is the optimal and best way to update MMO via expacs in the modern era.

 

Look it doesnt have to be physical, though i believe there are advantages to having a retail presence. I want an expansion equal in size to a boxed expansion. The game needs it, the players need it. I have already said that i would be fine with a digital one aswell. At the end of the day i just want more SWTOR goodness.

[Itkovian]

A lightsaber.

 

In box, indeed.

[Nemmar]

Revenue is only interesting if it generates profit. That's more important in the end. A boxed expansion also generates a lot of costs. That's the part you seem to ignore. BW have gone a way where they do smaller expansions digitally. What that does is give people something to look forward to in the near future all the time.

 

A big expansion will bring people back and after 1 or 2 months they will have finished that content again and leave again till the next expansion comes out. I don't think that is beneficial to have that fluctuation. With regular releases at least the population can be more consistent which is also important. MMOs need two things: profit to make the game viable and enough population so it can fulfill the promis of an MMO for the players. People who buy expansions once every 1-2 years may generate some income but not stable population.

 

Its like the grammar police around here. Obviously the revenue is so you can profit. I am fine with digital aslong as its the same size in terms of content.

[chuixupu]

Will this do for you?

 

http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/11/15/ncsoft-takes-a-financial-hit-in-q3-2013/

 

It specifically mentions that GW2 drops in sales yet again.

 

Of course Gw2 dropped in sales, there's only a finite number of people that will buy the game.

That is not proof that Gw2 is "a failure" by any stretch of the imagination.

 

I'm not thinking there is any exception. All major MMORPG's released boxed expansion.

 

Again, what are the MMO titles you are thinking of that are a massive success?

[Nemmar]

WoW took an 11 month development hiatus to make MoP.

 

MMOs are expected to be delivering content continuously.

 

SWTOR was originally planning on doing larger and fewer content updates, along with expansions. However, they changed their model to the 6-8 week content development cycle. If they were to develop large expansions, they'd need a much longer development cycle, and a lot of finished content would just be sitting there(this happens already in order to make their schedules attainable, but it usually only sits for a couple weeks or less).

 

Larger updates mean longer development cycles mean things that are already finished are waiting on the sidelines.

 

I'm not saying they should copy WoW in every regard. But in the end, the wait time is worth it for the ammount of content you get. Compare everything a boxed WoW expansion has to the 2 daily areas and 2 raids they get a year. Looks worth it to me.