"Free cartel coins"

[Andryah]

You are admitting that non-subs got more than 0% of the content before F2P and trying to deflect like always? As soon as they got the first mission, that's more than 0% and that's a fact.

 

A free trial ------> dead, thrown away after 14 days UNLESS they converted to a full sub. Has no persistent value absent a subscription. That's why they call it a trial.

 

F2P -----> persistent and playable for as long as a player wishes to play the game (just like a sub, only with fewer features). Has persistent value with or without a subscription.

 

NOT THE SAME. You can insist it is.. but that does not make it right.

Edited November 25, 2013 by Andryah

[Oteefo]

Am I the only one who has a bad taste in their mouth reading every month that we get our "free" cartel coins?

Could you please stop calling them free? They are not free! They are part of my sub and I pay money for them...

 

Wrong.....

 

By "Purchasing" 1000 Cartel coins each month for $14.99, your subscription is free......

 

BANG! Value added!

[Andryah]

Many advertisers use this misleading ploy to play on the ignorance of people's understanding of the definition of Free. But repeating the lie over and over doesn't make it true.

 

Hate to break it to you... but free perks and gifts to paying customers is not a ploy.. it's good business. It shows consideration and appreciation for business. Further.. customers have come to expect it as part of the total package. So.. companies use it as competitive advantage as well.

 

NOW... IF you only purchase that subscription for the free coins... yep.. you are paying for them. You are also being a bad consumer because their are more economical ways to purchase the coins.

 

IF on the other hand, you subscribe to play the game for all that it offers, the coins are indeed complimentary to you as a subscriber. Why? Because you are not subscribing to get the free coins and you paid nothing incremental for those coins.

 

Stop with the poverty consciousness IMO.

Edited November 25, 2013 by Andryah

[Infernixx]

Free means "Without Obligation" If you can go to that hotel and use their WiFi and not have to pay for the room as well, then yes, the WiFi would be free. But if you have to pay $200 for the room in order to get the WiFi, then the WiFi is NOT free. The room and the WiFi together costs you $200. It doesn't matter that they try to word it in a way that suggests the WiFi is seperate. It is NOT.

 

And it's the same with monthly Cartel Coins. It doesn't matter in the least that they say in the ToS that the Coins are seperate. The reality is that if I drop my subscription, then the "Free" coins also stop. Regardless if how they try to explain it, the reality is that the $15 a month that I pay is for the subscription and the coins, because if I don't pay the $15 per month, both will stop.

 

Many advertisers use this misleading ploy to play on the ignorance of people's understanding of the definition of Free. But repeating the lie over and over doesn't make it true.

 

The EULA and other technical sections detail exactly what is given in return for an account in this game.

 

Nowhere in the 'subbed' section are the CCs listed as part of what you get for subbing.

 

They could take the CCs away at any point and people would have no legal recourse.

 

They're not part of the package you get for subbing. They're a cherry on top that can be given and taken away at any point.

[Jacen_Starsolo]

A free trial ------> dead, thrown away after 14 days UNLESS they converted to a full sub. Has no persistent value absent a subscription. That's why they call it a trial.

 

F2P -----> persistent and playable for as long as a player wishes to play the game (just like a sub, only with fewer features). Has persistent value with or without a subscription.

 

NOT THE SAME. You can insist it is.. but that does not make it right.

 

The statement was that before F2P, non-subs got 0% of the content. Do you need it quoted back to you? Trial is a non-sub. And saw some content. You can try to add stuff to fit your argument like you always do, but everyone knows your gimmick.

[The_Grand_Nagus]

Only in your constructed-for-this-argument definition of free.

 

In that weird definition, what exactly would be free? Someone giving away cookies at the side of the road? Nope, you had to pay for the gas in your car to get there. You walked? Nope, you had to pay taxes which support the road. You're a foreign citizen? Nope, you had to pay for a boat/plane to get you there. You walked across the border? Nope, you had to pay for shoes.

 

You obviously failed to comprehend the key point of my post, which was if you have to pay money to the same business that you are getting something from, then what you are getting is not free. To use your earlier example: if you can walk into a hotel and use their wifi without renting a room, then that wifi is actually free. If they have a password and you have to actually rent a room to get that password, then the wifi is not free. How much gas it cost you to drive to that hotel has nothing to do with those conditions.

[Andryah]

The statement was that before F2P, non-subs got 0% of the content. Do you need it quoted back to you? Trial is a non-sub. And saw some content. You can try to add stuff to fit your argument like you always do, but everyone knows your gimmick.

 

Again.. you are off topic, and conflating off topic to shore up your weak sauce argument.

 

How about argue F2P vs Sub on THEIR comparative merits. Better yet.. do it in the context of the topic ----> CARTEL COINS Free or Not... being as Cartel Coins DID NOT EXIST when free trials existed.

Edited November 25, 2013 by Andryah

[Andryah]

They're a cherry on top that can be given and taken away at any point.

 

Even better analogy:

 

When you go to the local burger shop and buy a burger, those condiments on the counter are complimentary. Their purpose is to allow the consumer to flavor and tweak that burger as their personal tastes desire. Of course you are free to discard the condiments and eat your burger plain too.. but people rarely do that. So people in fact expect those condiments to be there.

 

Cartel Coins are essentially the condiments given complimentary to the subscriber to season and treat the taste of the subscription to their liking.

Edited November 25, 2013 by Andryah

[Jacen_Starsolo]

Again.. you are off topic, and conflating off topic to shore up your weak sauce argument.

 

How about argue F2P vs Sub on THEIR comparative merits. Better yet.. do it in the context of the topic ----> CARTEL COINS Free or Not... being as Cartel Coins DID NOT EXIST when free trials existed.

 

I will when you finally realize that a trial is a non-sub that saw some content. You fail at even accepting a trial is not a sub. Or that a trial saw content. Or both. Maybe because you are too stuck on yourself or too insecure or just plain stupid. I think it's the first or second but beginning to wonder if it's actually the third since it's basic logic that a trial is not a sub and saw content prior to the F2P conversion.

[TUXs]

Again.. you are off topic, and conflating off topic to shore up your weak sauce argument.

You told him he was wrong, he proved his point to you, which proved you were actually wrong, and now you're deflecting with terms that nobody else uses...what the hell is "weak sauce"?! Mild?

[Kurzaa]

Free means "Without Obligation" If you can go to that hotel and use their WiFi and not have to pay for the room as well, then yes, the WiFi would be free. But if you have to pay $200 for the room in order to get the WiFi, then the WiFi is NOT free. The room and the WiFi together costs you $200. It doesn't matter that they try to word it in a way that suggests the WiFi is seperate. It is NOT.

 

And it's the same with monthly Cartel Coins. It doesn't matter in the least that they say in the ToS that the Coins are seperate. The reality is that if I drop my subscription, then the "Free" coins also stop. Regardless if how they try to explain it, the reality is that the $15 a month that I pay is for the subscription and the coins, because if I don't pay the $15 per month, both will stop.

 

Many advertisers use this misleading ploy to play on the ignorance of people's understanding of the definition of Free. But repeating the lie over and over doesn't make it true.

 

Not all hotels offer "free" wifi however. Some have a gateway and will charge your room $10 for 24 hours of access. Even if they did offer free, no obligation wifi, it isn't really free. The cost is baked into bill of whoever you are visiting in the hotel, restaurant, or retail store. It is provided to get you into the location, with the understanding that you "will" eventually buy something. If they catch you loitering in the lobby to take advantage of the free wifi, they will ask you to leave.

 

At the end of the day though, this all comes down to how you perceive reality. In my case, there is no such thing as free. The f2p individuals in the game are being offered access in order to keep the game world "populated", to fill FP for subs, to feed the economy by converting CC to credits. You are given CC for periodic achievements to get you to buy just a few more coins for that purchase. You obviously feel the same way.

 

But on the other hand, some people view the coins as free, because even without the coins, they would continue pay for a subscription to the game. This is also a more optimistic view of reality.

[Andryah]

I will when you finally realize that a trial is a non-sub that saw some content. You fail at even accepting a trial is not a sub. Or that a trial saw content. Or both.

 

Again... not in any way relevant to this discussion in this thread....not even as off topic as you want to take it.

 

Maybe because you are too stuck on yourself or too insecure or just plain stupid. I think it's the first or second but beginning to wonder if it's actually the third since it's basic logic that a trial is not a sub and saw content prior to the F2P conversion.

 

Cute. Personal attacks may suit you to try to win a point.. but they are wasted on me.

Edited November 25, 2013 by Andryah

[Jacen_Starsolo]

Even better analogy:

 

When you go to the local burger shop and buy a burger, those condiments on the counter are complimentary. Their purpose is to allow the consumer to flavor and tweak that burger as their personal tastes desire. Of course you are free to discard the condiments and eat your burger plain too.. but people rarely do that. So people in fact expect those condiments to be there.

 

Cartel Coins are essentially the condiments given complimentary to the subscriber to season and treat the taste of the subscription to their liking.

 

Bad analogy actually. A person can walk into the burger place and grab a handful of them and walk back out without paying a cent. Coins we don't get that.

 

I've actually done it while on the road. Stopped at one going drive-thru and didn't get any ketchup in the bag but the driver already left. Stopped at the next exit and went into another different chain and grabbed some and walked right out.

Edited November 25, 2013 by Jacen_Starsolo

[Andryah]

Bad analogy actually. A person can walk into the burger place and grab a handful of them and walk back out without paying a cent. Coins we don't get that.

 

I've actually done it while on the road. Stopped at one going drive-thru and didn't get any ketchup in the bag but the driver already left. Stopped at the next exit and went into another different chain and grabbed some and walked right out.

 

Which exemplifies the reason some merchants put the condiments behind the counter and then only give them to you on request WHEN you purchase something. So.. fine.. we adjust the analogy to account for you ---> condiments are available to you WHEN you purchase the burger... you may have up to "X" for free... after that you have to pay. Interestingly, McDonalds actually does this with their dipping sauces for their menu items.... precisely for the reasons you so personally presented.

[DOHboy]

There is no such thing as a free lunch.

 

Buys a car, gets lifetime of "free" oil changes. The cost of the oil change by the seller (materials since labor is already paid for via other means) is less than the profit on the car and thus seen as value added for the sale since not offering it would potentially cost the seller an automobile sale (and thus its profit as well as giving that profit to a competitor).

 

Additionally the "free" oil change allows the seller the opportunity to upsell other stuff (brakes, maintenance, wipers, filters, fuel cleaners, etc.) that are much more profitable (and often times unnecessary). Which by the way is exactly what BW does here, in hopes that he 500CC will encourage you to buy other times and thus generate more sales.

 

My buy 10 the 11th is "free" is also NOT free. The cost of the 11th item is less than the profit made on the other 10 AND the additional value seen from a frequent customer (buying drinks and chips etc.) a reliable customer is much more valuable than a one time non-repeat customer. Thus the incentive to keep that person coming back (11th free ) returns much more value than just that single item (one off customer).

 

My buy 2 get one is also "not free" since you could simply list those items as 33% off and achieve the same goal however, it does reduce inventory at 3x the rate when compared to a single 33% off time. Since it requires the purchase of 2x more items than just a single item at 2/3 the price would typically generate while maintaining the same profits.

 

I dont' see anyone complaining and throwing tantrums when other business use similar and even more refined practices. Ever wonder why milk is ALWAYS at the back of the store, or why certain music is played during certain hours). Why are fast food joints chairs always uncomfortable? Why is it a "blue light" special and not say green or yellow?

[Andryah]

So the real question in all of this is:

 

What is it you, who insist the coins are NOT free, want????

 

Do you want them to not give them to you as part of your subscription?

Do you want the option to forego the coins and get a discount on the subscription?

Do you feel you deserve more coins and want them to increase the complimentary number?

Or is this just yet another crab walked anti F2P soap box?

Or is it something else?

 

What is the problem or issue exactly that you are wanting to be addressed here? I'm aware of what the OP wants.. he wants a word expunged from conversation (gigantic issue I know.... ) ... but what about all of you who piled in to this crazy long circular discussion??

Edited November 25, 2013 by Andryah

[The_Grand_Nagus]

So the real question in all of this is:

 

What is it, you who insist the coins are NOT free, you want????

 

If you had actually read the OP, you would know. But since you didnt bother, here is is:

 

Could you please stop calling them free?

 

Thats it. Thats all he wants. Your question is answered. The funny thing is, they dont call them that. I just checked my last email notifying me I had received them, and they dont use that word. So it seems the OP posted this thread based on some strange misunderstanding. However, none of that changes the fact that you would know the answer to your question if you had bothered to read.

Edited November 25, 2013 by The_Grand_Nagus

[DOHboy]

An even better analogy would be my cable provider giving me a "free $3.99" coupon for an OnDemand movie. Hoping that I sped that $3.99 on a $5.99 HD moving or purchase additional movies beyond the $3.99 "Free"

[BJWyler]

What have you lost that you had at the start of playing this game?

I really do not understand this statement at all BJ. NO MMO provides the same thing as when someone started playing the game. The evolve and change over time, mostly for the better. This MMO certainly has evolved for the better (in most players eyes) over time.. hence more value.

 

Regardless, value to a player in an MMO is not a constant. It ebbs and flows.. which is why I do not understand your comment.

 

I have lost nothing since I started playing the game, hence the reason why subs still have access to 100% of the content for the same cost of their subscription. However, what that subscription "pays for" in essence has changed.

 

Going back to the hotel anology:

(prior to F2P):

Game - Sub gets you leveling content, full UI, and unlimited endgame/PvP access

Hotel - Payment gets you bed, bathroom, and unlimited temp control, with a few other "complimentary" things added (WiFi, HD cable TV viewing).

 

(after F2P)

Game - Sub gets you full UI, unlimited endgame/PvP access, free access to CM items

Hotel - Payment gets you unlimited temp control, unlimited WiFi and TV viewing, free access to the Breakfast Bar.

 

Note that leveling content is not included in the game after F2P, just like the bed and bathroom are not included for the hotel. This doesn't mean that we are not getting these things when we pay our money, it just means that our money is no longer paying for those things. In essence, the hotel is not charging anyone for the bed and bathroom, so in order to make paying $200 still worth the cost, they have added new things that are covered by that cost. The same with SWTOR. BioWare is no longer charging for the leveling game, therefore in order to make the subscription worth the same cost, we are getting something new in return - in this case, it is access to the items in the Cartel Market via the CC monthly grant.

 

I agree with Andryah in that Free to Play certainly has increased the value of our subscription. For some things, that value has been artificially increased by the limitations placed on Premium and Free to Play accounts. The other things she mentions is how, by simple nature of the business model, our subscriptions have increased in value by having a better gameplay experience as a result. I also have to agree with her on the free trial thing. Free trials have no affect on the value of subscriptions. It is no more different than the hotel giving away one piece of sausage to anyone who walks in the door to check out the hotel amenities. It is simply a marketing ploy to get people to come to the hotel in hopes that they see what they like and will become a regular patron.

[Jacen_Starsolo]

Which exemplifies the reason some merchants put the condiments behind the counter and then only give them to you on request WHEN you purchase something. So.. fine.. we adjust the analogy to account for you ---> condiments are available to you WHEN you purchase the burger... you may have up to "X" for free... after that you have to pay. Interestingly, McDonalds actually does this with their dipping sauces for their menu items.... precisely for the reasons you so personally presented.

 

Only fast food places near me that hides their condiments I would say is Subway and the similar places. McD's, BK, Wendys, etc all have them in the eating area. And even Subway isn't exactly hidden just they add the stuff you ask for while making the sandwich of course.

 

And another time while on the road in another area, I walked in and asked the girl for ketchup and she just gave me a handful even when I didn't buy anything. May be she thought I did since it was packed for lunch hour but it wasn't like she asked me for a receipt or anything. She just reached and gave me a handful and asked if that was enough.

 

Where do you go where they got their ketchup on lockdown like it's gold?

[Brexten]

So the real question in all of this is:

 

What is it you, who insist the coins are NOT free, want????

 

Do you want them to not give them to you as part of your subscription?

Do you want the option to forego the coins and get a discount on the subscription?

Do you feel you deserve more coins and want them to increase the complimentary number?

Or is this just yet another crab walked anti F2P soap box?

Or is it something else?

 

What is the problem or issue exactly that you are wanting to be addressed here? I'm aware of what the OP wants.. he wants a word expunged from conversation (gigantic issue I know.... ) ... but what about all of you who piled in to this crazy long circular discussion??

 

The problem I wanted to address here was them beeing called free, while they aren't. As part of the sub they are what they are. They would be fools not to give them, when other MMOs do that for their subs. I just want them to stop calling them free...

[Malastare]

You obviously failed to comprehend the key point of my post, which was if you have to pay money to the same business that you are getting something from, then what you are getting is not free.

 

I comprehend it just fine, I simply disagree with your application of the word. I fully understand why you believe that, and to some degree I agree with your attitude toward it. However, you're arguing this like its some philosophical battle and the rest of us don't understand that we had to pay for our subscriptions. We see that. I can read what you're saying. However, you saying that something isn't "free" because [insert moral/ethical claim here], doesn't make it so.

 

Law and the common application of the English language in North America (and probably UK and AU/NZ) have established usages for the word in this context, and it doesn't match your usage.

 

So, while I see your point of view and agree that the usage can be deceiving, I am choosing to speak in a public forum with many people, and so I will use definitions which conforms to some definitive authority (legal systems in US and UK) or the most common usage. As soon as the courts define "free" to mean "a good or service which requires no location, situation, status, or material prerequisite" or a majority of people stop using "Free Refills" and change to "Refills Which Increase the Original Purchase Value", then I'll adopt your definition.

 

Again: I fully understand what you're saying. You simply don't care that your definition of free is not the majority definition. Doing that in a forum, however, is counter-productive. However, in the end, all you're doing is arguing about definitions. The courts don't care about your definition. The user contract doesn't care what you think "free" means. And the majority of the players don't care either. Nothing you're saying is changing a single part of their experience. The only impact it might have is in deceiving some customers into thinking they have more rights than they actually do. Exactly why you'd want to do that, I don't know.

[The_Grand_Nagus]

The problem I wanted to address here was them beeing called free, while they aren't. As part of the sub they are what they are. They would be fools not to give them, when other MMOs do that for their subs. I just want them to stop calling them free...

 

Sorry OP, but Andryah cant be bothered to actually read. If she could, then she would have already known the answer to her question. Since she didnt bother to read your OP, its not likely she'll bother to read your answer now.

[DOHboy]

The problem I wanted to address here was them beeing called free, while they aren't. As part of the sub they are what they are. They would be fools not to give them, when other MMOs do that for their subs. I just want them to stop calling them free...

 

better yet, how about they stop giving them out so we can see all the threads and QQ about them taking away our "free stuff"

 

so I guess the speeders, pets, and titles given to subs are not "free" either since we as subs are paying for them.

[Jacen_Starsolo]

Honestly, I have yet to see BW actually call them "free". They always use the word "complimentary". Because the word "free" gives one impression while "complimentary" gives another.

 

Only their elite defenders call them "free".