I am Roleplaying a Developer. Should I get fired or promoted?

[PapaRodin]

You may excuse me for taking everything Bioware says about anything with a grain of salt. After many unkept promisses and contradicting statements like the example we just discussed, I would be an idiot for handle this topic in any other way.

 

In terms of Snipe, everything Snipe can do, Overload shot could do as well.

Give it a slight damage push and increase its range and voila, perfectly usable for that situational purpose while being in theme with my previously purposed opinion about how giving cover to Agents/smugglers at level 1 is stupid.

 

I mean, lets be real here, Overload Shot is just another example for a failed ability. Bad Damage, bad range unless you are a sniper and every talent connected to it is just as bad. Operatives seemed to were intended to use that ability on a regulary basis, even have a passive that buffs its damage and yet it is still useless.

[Majspuffen]

Snipe is 30m, Overload Shot is 10m. The cast time does help somewhat with energy regen as well, but that is a very minor argument. I agree that overload shot is rather silly, though I do enjoy the animation and the sound of it. Sometimes I use it to kill off targets simply because of the animation but that is about it.

 

Currently, the problem with Overload shot is that there is no room for it in the rotation. It happens very rarely that you're good on energy and have everything on CD, but in those rare cases, overload shot does fill the void... but yeah. At least it is not as worthless as Shadow Strike is for Balance Shadows

Edited November 22, 2013 by Majspuffen

[PapaRodin]

Snipe is 30m, Overload Shot is 10m. The cast time does help somewhat with energy regen as well, but that is a very minor argument. I agree that overload shot is rather silly, though I do enjoy the animation and the sound of it. Sometimes I use it to kill off targets simply because of the animation but that is about it.

 

Currently, the problem with Overload shot is that there is no room for it in the rotation. It happens very rarely that you're good on energy and have everything on CD, but in those rare cases, overload shot does fill the void... but yeah. At least it is not as worthless as Shadow Strike is for Balance Shadows

 

Like I said, Overload Shot is of course crap as is. The point is that it could have served Snipes purpose for leveling and the operative if they had designed the class(es) right.

[sainik]

The Sentinel uses Mini Damage Cool Down A, the Juggernaut uses Mini Damage Cooldown B, there isn't much difference.

 

You can't compare an ability like pacify to shadow strike.

 

The point is not the end result, which is of course the same for both centering and combat focus. But it is what you do to get there. Centering is a core sentinel mechanic, something that screams sentinel (and the first ability you train at 10, along with zealous strike and zen ?). After all, we play games because we like to feel we are part of a role, and so appeal of the gameplay is also as important as the end result.

 

I was not comparing pacify to shadow strike, they are very different. Simply making a point that all core abilities are usable even in the shared tree.

 

And again on your point in lethality, that talent might have been poorly implemented, but thats not the point. having a heal proc (that is decently useful) distinguishes lethality operative from the lethality sniper. Players might not use it much, but I am fine with that. This is where we seem to have a disagreement

 

As to balance sages: distrubance hits pretty hard, has an increased crit chance, and with talent points it could increase force regen (i.e. synergy with core class ability). Mental alacrity increases movement speed, and not to mention that range is an important distinguishing feature of sages compared to shadows, and manipulating range is very cruical for a balance sage.

 

If we are to just look at end results and accomplishments, I believe that that whatever a balance shadow can accomplish, a sage can also. Where is a balance shadow unique and more "shadowy" then a sage ? If we had to go by your argument, why not simply increase the range of Force abiitlies to 30m and allow Tk throw to proc Force strike ? I would prefer that to the current spec, which is neither here nor there.

Edited November 23, 2013 by sainik

[sainik]

Vengeance Vigilance was very fluent and easy to play in my opinion although I admit that I never had the ability to use Vanish and Hidden Strike. If I remember correctly, all you had to do was use sundering Strike on Cooldown and fill the two GCDs in between with your three your big attacks (which tended to align well since all of them had a 9 Second CD if I remember correctly + the 6 Second Dispatch in the execute phase) and/or Master Strike, if needed/able to.

 

This is very true, however, in pvp its slightly different. More important to consider whether you are going to be able to pull of MS or not, for eg. Its not about rotations and filling in GCDs, but more situation awareness and being able to pull off what you are supposed to pull off.

[PapaRodin]

I want to see you use Cauterize as a Combat or Focus Sentinel then.

Good luck with that.

 

As a quick reminder. Cauterize is that core ability with a dot that the sentinel learns sometime early on and serves no other purpose than being used in the Watchmen Skilltree.

[Majspuffen]

I want to see you use Cauterize as a Combat or Focus Sentinel then.

Good luck with that.

 

As a quick reminder. Cauterize is that core ability with a dot that the sentinel learns sometime early on and serves no other purpose than being used in the Watchmen Skilltree.

 

Can't argue against that, but at least the first talent for Cauterize is pretty low in the tree, and I suppose a Sentinel at level 12 can use it, unlike a Jedi Shadow who cannot use Shadow Strike at level 10. If Kinetic Combat tanks and Balance Shadows were not supposed to use Shadow Strike then it would have been a talent in the infiltration tree. Personally, I preferred pre-2.0 when the DPS-specs used Shadow Strike and not the tank spec. Makes more sense.

[Majspuffen]

Vengeance Vigilance was very fluent and easy to play in my opinion although I admit that I never had the ability to use Vanish and Hidden Strike. If I remember correctly, all you had to do was use sundering Strike on Cooldown and fill the two GCDs in between with your three your big attacks (which tended to align well since all of them had a 9 Second CD if I remember correctly + the 6 Second Dispatch in the execute phase) and/or Master Strike, if needed/able to.

 

Mercenary Pyro wasn't hard to play either, the only thing that appeared hard and/or were unfun about him was the part were you needed to wait/hope for a proc (which I really don't like in general, I hate randomness in my gameplay all across the board) and the part were you were complety immobile which was unnerfing especially if you were used to play that spec as a powertech before.

 

I am curious though. You say that Vengeance was fluent and easy to play. How would you rank Balance Shadow? In my opinion, Balance shadows were very fluent and smooth to play. Perhaps there was a bit of a learning curve involved, but it wasn't -that- difficult. And like I highlighted, Balance Shadows and Vengeance Juggernauts use about the same amount of keybinds for their single target rotation (pre-2.0).

[PapaRodin]

The thing with Vigilance was that you were more or less focussed on using your Focus Builder on CD which was much tighter than it is now, 4,5 Seconds.

 

Your three big hits, Overhead, Plasma and Storm all head, if I remember correctly, only a 9 Second CD, so they both used to allign quite well even though you had to try to not clip the Dot of Plasma which is/was 12 seconds long.

 

Apart from that, watching Master Strike procs, watch for the execute phase and stay alive. Vigilance for me almost autopiloted itself, the only thing to really watch out for, especially in PVP is/was, like today, see for good opportunitys to use that Master Strike.

 

So, Vigilance was easy to me because it was relativly durable and very mobile while it also had a pretty simple rotation (sure, there are extras but the above was/were the most important things) and only had one Proc to watch out for.

 

Madness back then was still squishy as hell, not as mobile, at least to me it doesn't seemed that way to me, and in terms of abilitys

 

You had to juggle around three Dots around all the targets as good as possible, one of which is tied in into the proc while keeping a buff up for which you have to use an at this time subpar abilty while watching out for another Proc for that ability which is stupidly designed in any possible way. One could argue that having to drag Force in Balance into the map can be a hassle too, some people do, I remember me originally being one of them, but you get used to it quite easy.

 

In short, were Vigilance really held your hand, Madness gave you much more things to watch and look out for while being much more squishy and immobile.

 

 

 

 

FENCY NEW IDEA!!!!! WHAT, IF!

 

We replace Double Strike with Shadow Strike for Madness!?!?! Mind blown.

[Majspuffen]

Well, each to their own! I always found it difficult to juggle all cooldowns as Vengeance efficiently (in pvp at least) while also keep track of force scream buff. And the Balance gameplay was somewhat trivialized by the fact that we have a 10m range on most of our attacks. As a Balance shadow you'd weave in and out of melee range. They were squishy, but they had the tools to survive.

 

Vengeance being a pure melee spec made it harder to play. Vengeance also had very few tools to deal with stealthers. Force in Balance being having a target circle is awesome, because we can drop it where we think stealthers are. If we're lucky, we'll catch them in the open. If not, well we still have Force Wave and Whirling Blow. Balance Shadows were nicely balanced!

 

Also, replacing Double Strike with Shadow Strike sounds like a bad idea. Currently I hate Double Strike because it's pretty much the only melee ability we use, aside from saber strike and spinning strike. It would look really silly if we were spamming Shadow Strike. I want variety in my animations!

Edited November 23, 2013 by Majspuffen

[PapaRodin]

Well, each to their own! I always found it difficult to juggle all cooldowns as Vengeance efficiently (in pvp at least) while also keep track of force scream buff. And the Balance gameplay was somewhat trivialized by the fact that we have a 10m range on most of our attacks. As a Balance shadow you'd weave in and out of melee range. They were squishy, but they had the tools to survive.

 

Vengeance being a pure melee spec made it harder to play. Vengeance also had very few tools to deal with stealthers. Force in Balance being having a target circle is awesome, because we can drop it where we think stealthers are. If we're lucky, we'll catch them in the open. If not, well we still have Force Wave and Whirling Blow. Balance Shadows were nicely balanced!

 

Also, replacing Double Strike with Shadow Strike sounds like a bad idea. Currently I hate Double Strike because it's pretty much the only melee ability we use, aside from saber strike and spinning strike. It would look really silly if we were spamming Shadow Strike. I want variety in my animations!

 

The only toolse you can use out of the Melee Range are your dots (which aren't helpful in such situations), FIB which is nice, granted, but has a fairly long CD as well as project and telekinetic throw, which suck atm. Nothing compared to, lets say, a pyrotech powertech who does what you described, but better because he only needs to get into melee range once every 9 seconds for rocket punch while also being more durable thanks to heavy armor.

 

´Lethality Snipers could do that to an degree too, but they need to swoop in every six second for shiv. WHich the can do because they are able to skill that speed boost for after Shiv.

 

Now I agree that it would be cool if Balance would be actually able to do something similiar and I am very happy that we can agree on saying that this is a good thing because that very point which I have stated somewhere before is another reason why Project is the superior choice for another ability for the Madness Assassin over Shadow Strike.

 

Never had Problems with Vengeance being a pure Melee thanks to Force Leap and that AOE Slow. And That talent that made you CC immune after forceleap is just gold. Stealthers aren't so hard to deal with. Once found, or once you got found by them, you survive the initial burst, which isn't that hard to do thanks to heavy armor and some deff CD's, you destroy them.

 

And of course that Shadow Strike Idea was bad, I should start to use sarcasm tags. You wanting variety in your animations is something I can sympathize with, but outside of Shadow/Assassin Animations looking already terrible enough in this game mostly, I would much rather have functionality over looks first.

 

Apart from that, Saber Strike has a nice animation and there are times where you actually have to use it. There, three Lightsaber attacks, variety. And they all look better than that hilariously bad stabbing animation from Shadow Strike. It looked stupid with an Vibroknife and a single lightsaber already, but with a lightsaber stuff? Please.

[Majspuffen]

Actually, Balance Shadow was a much better mid range fighter than Lethality Operatives. Lethality Operatives are FORCED into melee range every 4 seconds, or else they can't do anything. A Balance Shadow could engage in melee whenever they wanted and Sever Force is an incredibly powerful tool for both catching targets and kiting targets.

 

Unlike Pyrotechs, Jedi Shadows have Force Speed on a 15s CD. Pyrotechs have a pull on a 45s CD and it can only be used to close a gap. You can't use a pull to escape. Balance Shadows also have Force Shroud which in my opinion is the strongest cooldown in the game. Negating damage from a strong attack or avoiding a stun is a game-changer. I believe I was a fairly good Balance Shadow back in the day though I don't have any RWZ rating as proof, but I did win a 1v1 tournament before 2.0 was launch. The final was against a Deception Assassin, which I narrowly won.

 

Pyrotechs had their uses. Their single-target pressure was probably the best in the game, but a lot of Pyrotechs complained about survivability. Balance Shadows were very versatile and had much better survivability than Lethality Operatives, and still do to this day in my honest opinion. It's just the gameplay that sucks, and the lack of any single target pressure that stinks.

 

Also, Project is still a nice ability for PvP, without any buffs. It hits for a decent amount and is a ranged attack. I'd still prefer to see a talent for a Shadow Strike proc.

[PapaRodin]

Actually, Balance Shadow was a much better mid range fighter than Lethality Operatives. Lethality Operatives are FORCED into melee range every 4 seconds, or else they can't do anything. A Balance Shadow could engage in melee whenever they wanted and Sever Force is an incredibly powerful tool for both catching targets and kiting targets.

Not remembering how Lethality Operatives used to play but I am pretty sure that Shiv always only had a six second cooldown which is all they really had to get into melee range for. Sure, Backstab, but that ability is more of an filler and feels displaced anyway. The thing with Balance Shadows is that they DIDN't could have engaged whenever they wanted. They could do so for applying dots since they have the 10 meter range, but outside of that, double strike and shadow strike as well as assassinate forced you to stay in melee range.

 

Unlike Pyrotechs, Jedi Shadows have Force Speed on a 15s CD. Pyrotechs have a pull on a 45s CD and it can only be used to close a gap. You can't use a pull to escape. Balance Shadows also have Force Shroud which in my opinion is the strongest cooldown in the game. Negating damage from a strong attack or avoiding a stun is a game-changer. I believe I was a fairly good Balance Shadow back in the day though I don't have any RWZ rating as proof, but I did win a 1v1 tournament before 2.0 was launch. The final was against a Deception Assassin, which I narrowly won.

 

You ignore that Bounty Hunters have 6 Seconds of increased Movement speed + snare immunity every 30 seconds while having a passive slow on the target while also only needing to be in Meleerange once every nine seconds. Force Shroud is a strong CD of course, but it can only do that much if you are a welcome target outside of those 3 seconds.

 

Pyrotechs had their uses. Their single-target pressure was probably the best in the game, but a lot of Pyrotechs complained about survivability. Balance Shadows were very versatile and had much better survivability than Lethality Operatives, and still do to this day in my honest opinion. It's just the gameplay that sucks, and the lack of any single target pressure that stinks.

 

But that was yesterday. Pyro Powertechs have two amazing Def CDs and much better range and mobility than Madness. Lethality may still be squishy, but with their rolling, they are hard to get/keep in Melee range and escape is in my eyes nearly as useful as Force Shroud is. Also, they beat us in form of CC since Flashbang is that strong of an CC and don't forget Biowares

!

Also, Project is still a nice ability for PvP, without any buffs. It hits for a decent amount and is a ranged attack. I'd still prefer to see a talent for a Shadow Strike proc0.

I remain true to my point, many problems Balance has, namely lack of variety in DPSing, DPS per say, even survivablity and mobility, can be fixed/buffed by making Project useful to Madness. Especially over Shadow Strike.

 

I heard people love it when I reply in their quotes.

[Majspuffen]

Well, I appreciate the discussion we've got going but I can't really come up with any more arguments without starting to repeat myself. Project is already useful, Shadow Strike is not and I want variation in my animations. Balance Shadows were in a very good position in 1.7, now they are not.

 

Also, keep in mind that when I talk about Balance Shadows and comparing them to the other classes, I am mostly comparing them to the specs back in 1.7. Back then, pyrotechs did not have hydraulic overrides. And heck, Balance Shadows still have very good tools for kiting targets and they are pretty effective in the 10m range. I haven't played my Balance Shadow that much since 2.0 but we're still fairly strong in 1v1s. We just lack single-target pressure. And the fun factor is gone.

[PapaRodin]

Well, I appreciate the discussion we've got going but I can't really come up with any more arguments without starting to repeat myself. Project is already useful, Shadow Strike is not and I want variation in my animations. Balance Shadows were in a very good position in 1.7, now they are not.

Nothing wrong with wanting variation, but in this case, adding Shadow Strikes doesn't add much to the problems Madness Assassins are having ATM.

 

Also, keep in mind that when I talk about Balance Shadows and comparing them to the other classes, I am mostly comparing them to the specs back in 1.7. Back then, pyrotechs did not have hydraulic overrides. And heck, Balance Shadows still have very good tools for kiting targets and they are pretty effective in the 10m range. I haven't played my Balance Shadow that much since 2.0 but we're still fairly strong in 1v1s. We just lack single-target pressure. And the fun factor is gone.

 

Talking about the past is all cool and dandy, but that is the problem with your mentality. When you are talking about wanting Shadow Strike, you are having thoughts about how awesome it was back then but, and I know I am repeating myself here:

 

Even if Madness Assassins were to get the possibility to use Shadow Strike, it wouldn't be nearly as it used to be back in the day (which is a good thing because it was just that stupid designed in my opinion) and it would cause more harm than good since all Shadow Strike would do is give you maybe a little bit more Single Target damage (not much more since Dotclass) while also forcing you to keep in Melee Range even more while also forcing to stick at your opponents *** which is hard enough to do with the limited kite/outspeed possibilitys Madness has compared to other melee/semimelee classes while you are always going to be focussed down very quick because you are as soft as icecream in the sun.

 

Long Story short:

 

Nothing wrong with wanting more variations in terms of animations, but Shadow Strike is a huge no no since it would cause more problems than it would solve. Try focus on the present, not on the past.

[Majspuffen]

Even if Madness Assassins were to get the possibility to use Shadow Strike, it wouldn't be nearly as it used to be back in the day (which is a good thing because it was just that stupid designed in my opinion) and it would cause more harm than good since all Shadow Strike would do is give you maybe a little bit more Single Target damage (not much more since Dotclass) while also forcing you to keep in Melee Range even more while also forcing to stick at your opponents *** which is hard enough to do with the limited kite/outspeed possibilitys Madness has compared to other melee/semimelee classes while you are always going to be focussed down very quick because you are as soft as icecream in the sun.

 

 

Long Story short:

 

Nothing wrong with wanting more variations in terms of animations, but Shadow Strike is a huge no no since it would cause more problems than it would solve. Try focus on the present, not on the past.

 

I think it is you who has the wrong mentality since Balance Shadows (and Shadows in general) are extremely mobile, and Balance Shadows in particular are very hard to shake considering the 2s root available every 9s. The problem right now, PvP-wise, is not our inability to stay in melee range or, indeed, staying out of melee range. The problem is that we have no single-target burst. Adding Shadow Strike to our rotation can only help. It causes no damage whatsoever.

 

Aside from your argument that "Project would be better," why is it that you think Shadow Strike would be such a detrimental addition to the Balance Spec? Elaborate, please.

 

[Edit] Also, if I am to compare Balance Shadows with Lethality Operatives once again;

Lethality Operatives have issues staying in range of their targets. Escaping is easy but very taxing on the energy, and lolroll is a very bad gap closer since it costs so much, it will hamper your ability to do damage. You don't want to use lolroll to close a gap and you only really use it out of desperation. You can back yourself up with Adrenaline Probe, but Adrenaline Probe is better used for burst.

 

Shiv gives speed boost. That speed boost is good for getting out of range but it does not help us get into range, since we have to be in range in order to execute it. So in comparison, force speed every 15s is MUCH more convenient.

 

You could say that 1.7 Balance Shadows were the opposite of 2.0 Lethality Operatives:

Lethality Operatives has to enter melee range to get procs.

Balance Shadows could start for range and enter melee range when procs were ready.

 

See the twist? That is why Balance Shadows were better mid-range fighters.

Edited November 24, 2013 by Majspuffen

[PapaRodin]

I think it is you who has the wrong mentality since Balance Shadows (and Shadows in general) are extremely mobile, and Balance Shadows in particular are very hard to shake considering the 2s root available every 9s. The problem right now, PvP-wise, is not our inability to stay in melee range or, indeed, staying out of melee range. The problem is that we have no single-target burst. Adding Shadow Strike to our rotation can only help. It causes no damage whatsoever.

 

Aside from your argument that "Project would be better," why is it that you think Shadow Strike would be such a detrimental addition to the Balance Spec? Elaborate, please.

I already did. Mobility and zoning isn't so great as you make it out to be. Project has a ten meter range and no positional requirement, which you yourself stated to be an advantage, so Project becoming good is an much more desireble and welcome change to Balance compared to Shadow Strike.

 

[Edit] Also, if I am to compare Balance Shadows with Lethality Operatives once again;

Lethality Operatives have issues staying in range of their targets. Escaping is easy but very taxing on the energy, and lolroll is a very bad gap closer since it costs so much, it will hamper your ability to do damage. You don't want to use lolroll to close a gap and you only really use it out of desperation. You can back yourself up with Adrenaline Probe, but Adrenaline Probe is better used for burst.

 

Shiv gives speed boost. That speed boost is good for getting out of range but it does not help us get into range, since we have to be in range in order to execute it. So in comparison, force speed every 15s is MUCH more convenient.

 

Agreed, but you also have to take into account that Operatives also have a spammable slow and an not so spammable but still useful slow on top of what you elaborated on. Compared to that toolset, Balance Assassins is lackluster.

 

You could say that 1.7 Balance Shadows were the opposite of 2.0 Lethality Operatives:

Lethality Operatives has to enter melee range to get procs.

Balance Shadows could start for range and enter melee range when procs were ready.

 

See the twist? That is why Balance Shadows were better mid-range fighters.

 

This is flatout wrong because Madness has to get into melee range for procs too, and because Madness has to stay in melee range for a prolonged time because of the crappy procchance of Raze and because even if you had a proc, your filler move is still a Melee Attack. If you want to continue to put pressure on your opponent, you will want to stay in Melee Range.

 

Shadow Strike would only enhance that factor while also making it worse having you to worry about not only staying in Melee Range but also at your opponents ***. Project would give you more room for zoning.

 

To summarize the advantages of Shock/Project over Shadow Strike yet again:

 

It has talents that support it already which are easy accessable.

It already isn't as costly.

It doesn't need much to be worth using.

It has more Range.

It has no positional requirement.

It is stronger for Assassins naturally, thus giving us an small edge if they do plan to incorporate something similiar for Sages.

It doesn't look as stupid as Shadow Strike (Subject of taste, granted, but still, just having a copy/pasted stabbing animation which was intended for a single bladed weapon which already looked stupid there and only becomes even more hilarious when used with a staff? Give me a break.)

It fits the theme of being a force based move for a force based skill tree.

[Majspuffen]

I already did. Mobility and zoning isn't so great as you make it out to be.

 

It is exactly as great as I make it out to be. Out of all DPS specs I dare say that Balance Shadows in particular has the best tools to escape / catch up to targets.

 

15s Force Speed that is effective even when slowed.

50% slow on 12s CD.

2s root on 9 s CD.

Force Shroud to avoid all yellow damage and CC on a 1m CD.

Vanish on a 2m CD.

 

The short CDs makes all these things useful. After 2.0 I began to play my Operative a lot more and I hate lolroll with a passion because it's clunky and expensive. It is overpowered for objective play, it's true, but I still prefer Force Speed over it. I also prefer Force Speed over Force Charge and Pull.

 

Project has a ten meter range and no positional requirement, which you yourself stated to be an advantage, so Project becoming good is an much more desireble and welcome change to Balance compared to Shadow Strike.

 

That is an advantage yes, but here is the thing: Project is already useful!

 

In fact, as strange as it may sound, giving us a reason to use project for our single target rotation could be seen as detrimental to our effectiveness in PvP because it rids us of an optional attack to use from range.

 

Agreed, but you also have to take into account that Operatives also have a spammable slow and an not so spammable but still useful slow on top of what you elaborated on. Compared to that toolset, Balance Assassins is lackluster.

 

If you've played Lethality Operative you should know that the slow from Corrosive Grenade is not that impressive. If you are referring to Sever Tendon, the actually useful slow, that thing has a 12s CD just like our Force Slow.

 

[edit] Also, a Lethality operative has nothing in terms of utility when compared to a Balance Shadow. Balance Shadow has tools to destealth targets from range. Balance Shadows has a knockback on a short CD. Balance Shadows can avoid CC. Balance Shadows have taunts... and which is better, taunts or off-heals? One being off the GCD, costing no resource and the other requiring cast time and costing lots of resource.

 

If you're looking at the paper and at theory, Lethality Operatives may seem to have lots of nice utility, but when you actually play the game you'll see that the effectiveness of the Shadow's cooldowns are much superior.

 

This is flatout wrong because Madness has to get into melee range for procs too, and because Madness has to stay in melee range for a prolonged time because of the crappy procchance of Raze and because even if you had a proc, your filler move is still a Melee Attack. If you want to continue to put pressure on your opponent, you will want to stay in Melee Range.

 

It was true in 1.7 because Shadow Strike could proc from any attack, be it Mind Crush, Project of Force in Balance (or force slow or force stun...). In 1.7 when fighting a Marauder I would kite him and attack when Shadow Strike was ready. I would engage on my own terms, something a Lethality Operative can't do since they require shiv. Without shiv they can't do anything. A balance shadow can do stuff even if they might not be able to proc Raze.

 

If you for a second believe that Lethality Operatives are better than Balance Shadows, then you are dead wrong. Not even when considering Cover; Sever Force is much superior. As for heal 2 full... heals costs resource, which in turn affects the damage output of an Operative and the heals generally don't heal for that much. They're mostly useful when a target has lost interest in you. Balance Shadows have superior cooldowns to a Lethality Operative.

 

Plainly speaking: 1.7 Balance Shadow > 2.0 Lethality Operative.

 

Shadow Strike would only enhance that factor while also making it worse having you to worry about not only staying in Melee Range but also at your opponents ***. Project would give you more room for zoning.

 

Strangely this was never an issue in 1.7.

 

It doesn't look as stupid as Shadow Strike (Subject of taste, granted, but still, just having a copy/pasted stabbing animation which was intended for a single bladed weapon which already looked stupid there and only becomes even more hilarious when used with a staff? Give me a break.)

 

The way I see it, the animation was clearly made for the Saber Staff. I think the animation looks awkward when you use it with a single-bladed saber. Also, having more melee animations spices up the gameplay. But that is subjective... personally I hate the new project animation. I was a fan of the old one, but this new one looks like you rip a turd up from the ground and chuck it at your opponent. You barely have time to see it because it goes too damn fast.

 

[edit] Besides, we have two trees dedicated to throwing rocks. When I levelled my Shadow back in Feberuary 2012, one reason why the Balance spec looked attractive was because the minimal usage of Project. I liked the animation, but I thought it silly to rip up debris from the ground every ~6 seconds.

 

It fits the theme of being a force based move for a force based skill tree.

 

Are Balance Shadows supposed to be Force Users primarily? When I first looked at the pre-2.0 tree, I got the feeling that Balance Shadows was all about synergizing force and melee attacks due to talents like Force Synergy and Twin Disciplines. You would use the force to augment your melee damage, and through your melee damage you would proc force attacks. Pre-2.0 it felt like I was using as many force attacks as melee attacks, and that was a perfect theme for a spec titled "BALANCE."

Edited November 24, 2013 by Majspuffen

[sainik]

It fits the theme of being a force based move for a force based skill tree.

 

A double bladed lighsaber is a bit excessive for a pure force user.

[PapaRodin]

It is exactly as great as I make it out to be. Out of all DPS specs I dare say that Balance Shadows in particular has the best tools to escape / catch up to targets.

 

15s Force Speed that is effective even when slowed.

50% slow on 12s CD.

2s root on 9 s CD.

Force Shroud to avoid all yellow damage and CC on a 1m CD.

Vanish on a 2m CD.

 

The short CDs makes all these things useful. After 2.0 I began to play my Operative a lot more and I hate lolroll with a passion because it's clunky and expensive. It is overpowered for objective play, it's true, but I still prefer Force Speed over it. I also prefer Force Speed over Force Charge and Pull.

Lets compare your little list to the operative.

 

15 Second Force Speed, lets equalize that with the roll (which I personally love and never want to miss again)

50 Second Slow on a 12 Second CD. Operatives have that too.

2 Second Root on a Nine Second CD. Nice meant, but you should mention that this valuable CC is tied in onto a valueable Damage Ability. I am not sure about you but I would hate it to hold damage back just so I can keep up when it counts, wouldn't you? In 1 on 1's, that may be a little different but then again, if you are 1 on 1ing as Madness, you are doing something wrong.

 

In regards of the list, lets equalize the Root with the 30% AOE Slow that is spammable that Operatives have with CG.

Evasion on a, how long was it again? 30-45 Seconds of cooldown, freeing you from effects while making you immune to white damage. Not much of an difference here.

Vanish on a 2 Minute Cooldown.

 

Looks relatively even so far.

 

But then Lethality still has the Shiv-Sprint, can stun every 30 Seconds as opposed to 50 Seconds of the Shadow, has an instant AOE Sleep for 8 Seconds (which also doesn't break from Dots), Shield Probe and....a crappy Healskill Proc. Lets ignore that one because I hate it.

 

Assassins can try to keep up with Deflect which is useful I guess, on a long cooldown, the Dot Crit Heals which are weak, seldom and unreliable and of course the 30% reduced Damage in Stun. Those 30% make even more the difference if the numbers you are eaten are especially high because you are squishy as hell outside of that so that is worth a lot.

 

Ah yeah, and Force Wave which is actually very good at what it does even though its pushback is weak for Assassins compared to about every other pushback in the game but maybe that is just me being silly. No, I am not, some classes can skill that there pushes push farther. Knew there was something.

 

Also Taunts which are very useful if you ignore the fact that you are going to get focussed often anyway because you are, how did I put it again? Soft as Ice Cream in the sun. Still good having them. Not for us, but for others in our team of course.

 

In direct comparison, the Lethality Operative wins in terms of Mobility, CC and Utility while they are about equal in terms of defensive CDs.

 

That is an advantage yes, but here is the thing: Project is already useful!

 

In fact, as strange as it may sound, giving us a reason to use project for our single target rotation could be seen as detrimental to our effectiveness in PvP because it rids us of an optional attack to use from range.

 

We already would have Force Lightning for that. Also, following your reasoning, we should ask Bioware to let go of the Root from Sewer Force becase it is detrimental to our effectiveness in PVP because it rids us from an possibly otherwise optional way to keep our Enemys pinned down. See what I did there?

 

If you've played Lethality Operative you should know that the slow from Corrosive Grenade is not that impressive. If you are referring to Sever Tendon, the actually useful slow, that thing has a 12s CD just like our Force Slow.

It may not be impressive, but it is there and being there is better than not being there.

 

[edit] Also, a Lethality operative has nothing in terms of utility when compared to a Balance Shadow. Balance Shadow has tools to destealth targets from range. Balance Shadows has a knockback on a short CD. Balance Shadows can avoid CC. Balance Shadows have taunts... and which is better, taunts or off-heals? One being off the GCD, costing no resource and the other requiring cast time and costing lots of resource.

 

If you're looking at the paper and at theory, Lethality Operatives may seem to have lots of nice utility, but when you actually play the game you'll see that the effectiveness of the Shadow's cooldowns are much superior.

 

I played both so I know a thing or two about what I talk about. You may read my list above again.

 

It was true in 1.7 because Shadow Strike could proc from any attack, be it Mind Crush, Project of Force in Balance (or force slow or force stun...). In 1.7 when fighting a Marauder I would kite him and attack when Shadow Strike was ready. I would engage on my own terms, something a Lethality Operative can't do since they require shiv. Without shiv they can't do anything. A balance shadow can do stuff even if they might not be able to proc Raze.

 

If you for a second believe that Lethality Operatives are better than Balance Shadows, then you are dead wrong. Not even when considering Cover; Sever Force is much superior. As for heal 2 full... heals costs resource, which in turn affects the damage output of an Operative and the heals generally don't heal for that much. They're mostly useful when a target has lost interest in you. Balance Shadows have superior cooldowns to a Lethality Operative.

That Heal to Full Argument was to be taken with a grain of salt. Yeah, I should definatly use Sarcasm Tags in the future.

 

Plainly speaking: 1.7 Balance Shadow > 2.0 Lethality Operative.

And you did it again. You compare the Shadow from the Past with something from the Present.

 

Let me pinpoint you the differences between 1.7 Balance and 2.x Balance.

 

You have lost a ******** of crit so your passive Dot Crit Heals are even weaker than they were before.

You have lost your instant Whirlwind while having gotten nothing new in terms of CC, Slowing or rooting.

You have lost the lol Shadow Strike which was stupid to begin with.

The already stupid ramp up time got a little bit less stupid while still being stupid as ****.

 

Lets put that into a comparison with other classes.

Guardians got themselves another Def CD. Maybe two, don't know when Focussed Defense appeared game anymore.

Marauders got themselve another strong AOE Move on a relativly low cooldown which is also a 50% slow. That they are stupidly OP as Focus can be put aside here for the moment.

Powertechs became much more Durable all across the board while also becoming much more mobile thanks to Override becoming baseline for all Bountyhunters. Also increased Burst thanks to Shoulder Cannons.

Mercenarys became more mobile thanks to baseline Override and are the kings of kiting every 1.5 Minutes thanks to Electronet.

Sith Assassins literally melt you even though you have that fency Stun Damage Reduction thanks to bioware pushing their upstart burst into the heavens.

Sith Sorcerers have mostly superior CC while also being a lot more flexible than you. They are doable, but you better hope that they aren't getting help while they wait in there bubble after you have already clubbed them down.

Snipers. See you coming from a long mile ago unless you deep cloak which you should do anyway and even then, good luck getting them down while they entrench and ambush you into the afterlife while you are still busy trying to get your Dots up all nice and dandy. If it was a lethality sniper, remember to say thank you for that corrosive mine that he left there for you before he exfiltrated.

Lethality Operatives, we had that topic. Good luck with trying to catch them, good luck with trying to drag them down before they got you down into nothingness.

 

Strangely this was never an issue in 1.7.

Welcome to 2.X. Balance isn't what it used to be while others became better by a long shot.

It is true that Balance was very playable back in 1.X, but we aren't in 1.X anymore and you should learn that. Other Classes/Specs became much better/stronger/versaille while the Balance Shadow was dumped down and became much weaker all across the board while not getting anything new and truly meaningful.

 

The way I see it, the animation was clearly made for the Saber Staff. I think the animation looks awkward when you use it with a single-bladed saber. Also, having more melee animations spices up the gameplay. But that is subjective... personally I hate the new project animation. I was a fan of the old one, but this new one looks like you rip a turd up from the ground and chuck it at your opponent. You barely have time to see it because it goes too damn fast.

 

Agreed, the old Project Animation was much better than the actual one, but I still like the actual one. Not that it matters to me since I play an Assassin, but it is the thought that counts. In terms of Shadow Strike, it is exactly the same stabbing motion used for Riposte, Backstab and every "I have a lightsaber and destroy something" questobject in the game. It is CLEARLY and absolutly overexagerated Move planned to be used with a single bladed Weapon of whatever kind and already looked stupid there and become absolutly hilarious as soon as it was paired with an Dual Bladed Lightsaber. You can try to imitate that stabbing motion with a staff if you want to. Good luck with that, try to not poke your eyes out.

 

[edit] Besides, we have two trees dedicated to throwing rocks. When I levelled my Shadow back in Feberuary 2012, one reason why the Balance spec looked attractive was because the minimal usage of Project. I liked the animation, but I thought it silly to rip up debris from the ground every ~6 seconds.

 

As soon as you hit level 10 you should have known that Project would haunt you for months as soon as you have bought that 25% Damage Passive to for it. Also, I like that rip debris from ground part very much. Maybe a bit exaggerated, but cool. And also quite often seen oncreen. I remember Darth Maul using Project to open a door. Very smooth. Also, you are a hypocrit for saying that you don't want Project being used by every spec while proposing that this very treatment has to happen with Shadow Strike, an Ability that you like. Subjective much. I am not going to sue you for that, but since you are a reasonable person even you should see the practicle benefits of Project over Shadow Strike, ignoring the animations, and ignoring the fact, that that very topic is only the pinacle of Balances Problems that need to be taken care of.

 

Are Balance Shadows supposed to be Force Users primarily? When I first looked at the pre-2.0 tree, I got the feeling that Balance Shadows was all about synergizing force and melee attacks due to talents like Force Synergy and Twin Disciplines. You would use the force to augment your melee damage, and through your melee damage you would proc force attacks. Pre-2.0 it felt like I was using as many force attacks as melee attacks, and that was a perfect theme for a spec titled "BALANCE."

 

Two points on this.

 

First, I think the point you mentioned here is much more present in infiltration. Your Melee Attacks strengten your force attacks, mainy Force Breach and Project while those give you procs/opportunitys to use your stupid stab attack for great success. Madness also still does this, but on an totally different level.

 

Second, you also need to consider that the Tree doesn't only belong to shadows. It also belongs to sages and good luck trying to make them use their lightsaber.

It also belongs to Sith Inquisitors, named Madness. Try telling someone Mad something about balance, good luck about that. They are mirrorclasses and have to work equally, so some feelings will allways gonna feel off.

 

 

That has taken much longer than it was supposed to.

I wanted to edit something but I forgot what it was. How troublesome.

Edited November 24, 2013 by PapaRodin

[Sabatiel]

That has taken much longer than it was supposed to.

I wanted to edit something but I forgot what it was. How troublesome.

 

let me stop you there sir..

 

balance shadows are very good at 1 vs 1.

sure inli shadow sould kill us with ease. balance sages and some Op are troublesome.. but rest is kinda easy to 1 vs 1

[PapaRodin]

It depends on the player and who you are playing against. Sure Madness can hold its own, but in most cases, I think, if you have two equally good players of different classes/specs, the Madness Assassin will lose against most.

 

Of course I can't back that up with any detailed information, but that is just the impression I am having when comparing Madness Assassins Moveset and Abilitys to others.

[Sabatiel]

not entirely true..

we have problems with the classes who can cleanse our DoTs that is othera Sins. Sages and Op if i recall correctly

and i rather do not take 1 vs 1 against infli shadows.. sure if you tmie res so theirs FB and project so it won't hit you, you will win.. but this is so hard to do i'd rather don't play that rullet..

anywyas if you'll get you force strike proc in 1 vs 1 and you're not terrible you should win.. but gatting that proc it's different story entirely.. sometimes i not seem to get it.. (FB is on traget ;p) guess one of the problems why this spec is so dead..

Edited November 24, 2013 by Sabatiel

[PapaRodin]

not entirely true..

we have problems with the classes who can cleanse our DoTs that is othera Sins. Sages and Op if i recall correctly

and i rather do not take 1 vs 1 against infli shadows.. sure if you tmie res so theirs FB and project so it won't hit you, you will win.. but this is so hard to do i'd rather don't play that rullet..

anywyas if you'll get you force strike proc in 1 vs 1 and you're not terrible you should win.. but gatting that proc it's different story entirely.. sometimes i not seem to get it.. (FB is on traget ;p) guess one of the problems why this spec is so dead..

 

The need of having Force Breach on the target is kinda insulting to me to, anyway, Force Strike in general is pretty horrible designed for the Assassin in general, but that isn't the topic right now.

 

Sure, you can kill others if you are a good player, but they can kill you as well if they are not terrible.

 

Assuming all CDs are up for both.

 

Jedi Guardian

Tank ---> This Battle will drag on for forever and should be relativly even.

Vigilance ---> You have literally nothing to keep that Knight of your back for as long as you would like to while he takes away approximatly half of your health with one well played Ravage.

Focus ---> Mobile and bursty as hell. By the time you have applied your dots, you have already eaten lots of damage.

 

Jedi Sentinel

Watchmen ---> Honestly I have no idea how they are doing atm. They have the supreme Def CDs and a lot less Set up to do while also being a bit more mobile and having an almost passive slow. I think I would give the cake to them.

Combat ----> Destroys you if played right, their burst is just that impressive.

Focus ----> See Jedi Knight.

 

Sith Assassin

Tank ---> He is much more durable then you, has the better/more consistent heals, the much better mobility and the better Def CDs. Their damage isn't bad either, also more CC. Tank wins. Easily

Deception ---> I think I do not need to say much about this. Better defense, better offense, more CC.

Madness ---> An even match!

 

Sith Sorcerer

Healing ---> Doable but hard as ****. Then again, he is a healer, thus a demigod.

Lightning ---> Lots of CC, but not as mobile. Not easy, but I would say, doable.

Madness ---> Much better and much more fluent than Assassins Madness while keeping allmost every strength Madness has to offer while adding the Sorcerer Percs onto that which, in my opinion, overshadow those of the Shadow, mostly. Sorcerer wins.

 

Powertech

Tank ---> Haven't really played with or against Shield Tech much to be honest so no opinion here.

AP ---> Depends strongly on the player. A good AP will find enough ways to destroy the Balance Shadow, but at these stage of the game, most AP Powertechs tend to suck.

Pyrotech ---> I think we had that topic. They are more or less like the Balance Shadow, but better in pretty much everything in my opinion. They should destroy them easily.

 

Mercenary

Healing ---> The weakest Healer. Very doable, but could take a while.

Arsenal ---> Assuming they have Electronet, you have lost right there. Assuming they don't it may take a few seconds until you have lost.

Pyrotech ---> Not as strong as Powertechs Pyrotech. Doable, but the Mercenary still has the odds in his favor in my opinion.

 

Sniper

Marksmanship ----> Destroys you. Big time.

Engineering ----> Haven't played this one at all and haven't seen it often as an opponent, so no opinion here. In generell, though, reading through what they can do, I think I give the favor of the odd to them still.

Lethality ----> Definatly the Sniper wins here. Easy.

 

Operative

Healing ----> Hahahahahaha!

Concealment ----> Depends. If the Concealment Operative gets you, odds aren't in your favor. If you do get him, it may look a bit different.

Lethality ----> I/we have talked about this plenty already somewhere, so my opinion on this should be known already.

 

 

 

So out of my point of view, the Madness Assassin has a very hard time against most classes Specs with some very few exceptions.

[Sabatiel]

The need of having Force Breach on the target is kinda insulting to me to, anyway, Force Strike in general is pretty horrible designed for the Assassin in general, but that isn't the topic right now.

 

Sure, you can kill others if you are a good player, but they can kill you as well if they are not terrible.

 

Assuming all CDs are up for both.

 

Jedi Guardian

Tank ---> This Battle will drag on for forever and should be relativly even.

that is win for balance

Vigilance ---> You have literally nothing to keep that Knight of your back for as long as you would like to while he takes away approximatly half of your health with one well played Ravage.

not many Jugg runs this spec on my serv.. haven't done many 1vs1 can't really say, i've won most of which have done.

Focus ---> Mobile and bursty as hell. By the time you have applied your dots, you have already eaten lots of damage.

If you mange to res before smash, it's a win for you. if you eat it you will lose it

 

Jedi Sentinel

Watchmen ---> Honestly I have no idea how they are doing atm. They have the supreme Def CDs and a lot less Set up to do while also being a bit more mobile and having an almost passive slow. I think I would give the cake to them.yeah, met one in areana and got focuesd fast. can't reall tell

Combat ----> Destroys you if played right, their burst is just that impressive.

this one is hide and seek, if you don't get into a meele you should be fine, blade storm is a pain though ;.

Focus ----> See Jedi Knight.well 99% dmg reduction is a big deal actually, FC or stun and you'll win if you res the smash

 

Sith Assassin

Tank ---> He is much more durable then you, has the better/more consistent heals, the much better mobility and the better Def CDs. Their damage isn't bad either, also more CC. Tank wins. Easily

i've dueled iwth one who i consider the best on my serv.. really really hard but doable.

Deception ---> I think I do not need to say much about this. Better defense, better offense, more CC.

not much to disagree about here but it is duable but perhaps the hardest form all

Madness ---> An even match!

 

Sith Sorcerer

Healing ---> Doable but hard as ****. Then again, he is a healer, thus a demigod.

agreeed

Lightning ---> Lots of CC, but not as mobile. Not easy, but I would say, doable.

agreed

Madness ---> Much better and much more fluent than Assassins Madness while keeping allmost every strength Madness has to offer while adding the Sorcerer Percs onto that which, in my opinion, overshadow those of the Shadow, mostly. Sorcerer wins.

if you are able to stay in meele shadow wins.. other scenerio sages wins easliy

Powertech

Tank ---> Haven't really played with or against Shield Tech much to be honest so no opinion here.

tbh.. we lose here badly. imho far better dmg reduction and dmg output than tanksin

AP ---> Depends strongly on the player. A good AP will find enough ways to destroy the Balance Shadow, but at these stage of the game, most AP Powertechs tend to suck.

doable

Pyrotech ---> I think we had that topic. They are more or less like the Balance Shadow, but better in pretty much everything in my opinion. They should destroy them easily.

doable

 

Mercenary

Healing ---> The weakest Healer. Very doable, but could take a while.

agreed

Arsenal ---> Assuming they have Electronet, you have lost right there. Assuming they don't it may take a few seconds until you have lost.

if start form meele and stay in meele you'll win

Pyrotech ---> Not as strong as Powertechs Pyrotech. Doable, but the Mercenary still has the odds in his favor in my opinion.

same as above

Sniper

Marksmanship ----> Destroys you. Big time.

same as arsenal i guess.. if you stay in meele you should win easily

Engineering ----> Haven't played this one at all and haven't seen it often as an opponent, so no opinion here. In generell, though, reading through what they can do, I think I give the favor of the odd to them still.

hate their probe.. i guess i'll go with snpier here, hanve't done my 1vs1 though

Lethality ----> Definatly the Sniper wins here. Easy.

i find them quite average

 

Operative

Healing ----> Hahahahahaha!

yeah op just outheales your dmg like by 4x

Concealment ----> Depends. If the Concealment Operative gets you, odds aren't in your favor. If you do get him, it may look a bit different.

i'd go for Op if you opens on you, if not i go for balance

Lethality ----> I/we have talked about this plenty already somewhere, so my opinion on this should be known already.

same as snpier

 

 

So out of my point of view, the Madness Assassin has a very hard time against most classes Specs with some very few exceptions.

 

this is all based on my experiance on my serv. i'm not winning like 100% of the time.. 7/10 sometimes less sometimes more.. but i think taht we are vry capable of 1 vs 1 ;]

still i might be playing against bads.. so my percepction might be bit off..

That being said.. we are nowhere near infli as far as pvp is concern..

Main problem with us is that we need too much time to get the dmg going..