Kaggath Tournament - Felonious Empire vs Ascending Empire

[Beniboybling]

Just a general word of advice to everyone, try not to get too bogged down in attempting to invalidate your opponents arguments. I rarely find many arguments made in the Kaggath that are invalid, and those that are I quickly make sure to flag. If I haven't done that, I'll likely be considering that argument when making my decision.

 

I'd instead advise you to counter the argument i.e. accept that it could happen, but explain why it will prove unsuccessful. Because in the end with the whole valid/invalid thing its very black and white. Only one person is right and in the end I'm going to have to come down on a side, meaning the person on the 'wrong' side just wasted their time with that debate. Whereas with a counter both can be considered, its a push pull kinda thing. If you get my meaning.

 

Just a habit I've been observing folks have been adopting, so I thought I'd mention it.

[Beniboybling]

So what? I scared everyone away?

[Wolfninjajedi]

So what? I scared everyone away?

 

/Shrug

 

I don't think I have anything to contribute tbh.

[tunewalker]

So what? I scared everyone away?

 

been sleeping need to catch up on all that has been said, on your last statement I will say this. The reason why you have to worry about any attempt at an insurrection in Correllia specifically is its potential to Backfire. While we all know that some may be influenced its really hard to say all would and with just one that says he is loyal to Canino's forces and him actually being loyal to Garm Bel that one could undo and wreak havoc on the unsuspecting FE.

 

The same can be said for ALL of the Criminals and Smugglers that you hire Mothma is an incredibly skilled diplomat and was the leader of the Rebel Alliance, many of the people in the Rebel Alliance were criminals (in fact technically all of them were) who Mothma or others in the Alliance were able to persuade to their side. So again if you have a couple that act as Double Agents there is a real problem. An Agent I do not feel is as worth while as a double Agent, after all it was a Double Agent that killed the greatest Admiral of all.... Thrawn.

 

Its my only thought right now I will get to others in a sec.

Edited November 24, 2013 by tunewalker

[tunewalker]

Also in terms of Kun vs Sing I don't think Sing really has much of a real shot beyond just what we saw already circumstances nulled. Kun is exceptional at blaster fire deflection. While he prefers Djem So variant he is still capable of using the Shien Varriant any blaster bolts that fire his direction could very well be deflected back at Sing.

 

 

Also I do not believe Vader could defeat both Kenobi and Kun though he could admittedly likely handle 4 Imperial knights after all Krayt was able to do so on his own with a Saber I see no reason why Vader couldn't as well especially since we have already seen him handle more opponents when he was at a lesser skill level.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Also in terms of Kun vs Sing I don't think Sing really has much of a real shot beyond just what we saw already circumstances nulled. Kun is exceptional at blaster fire deflection. While he prefers Djem So variant he is still capable of using the Shien Varriant any blaster bolts that fire his direction could very well be deflected back at Sing.

 

 

Also I do not believe Vader could defeat both Kenobi and Kun though he could admittedly likely handle 4 Imperial knights after all Krayt was able to do so on his own with a Saber I see no reason why Vader couldn't as well especially since we have already seen him handle more opponents when he was at a lesser skill level.

 

Vader is more skilled than both Obi-Wan and Koon in his prime, better all around really. Together? Might give him a little trouble, but overall I could see him winning. Against 1 on 1? He'll take it.

Edited November 24, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[Aurbere]

It's Koon, people. Sometimes I wish I had Exar Kun, but I don't.

[Wolfninjajedi]

It's Koon, people. Sometimes I wish I had Exar Kun, but I don't.

 

Sorry, sorry, fixed it lol. I got swept up in the name calling cause everyone else seemed too.

[Aurbere]

Sorry, sorry, fixed it lol. I got swept up in the name calling cause everyone else seemed too.

 

No problem. It just irked me is all.

 

Makes me wonder if I should use Exar Kun next time.

[tunewalker]

No problem. It just irked me is all.

 

Makes me wonder if I should use Exar Kun next time.

 

Oooops sorry I was following what others did....... point was Koon and Kenobi together can take Vader, separate I would think Vader would win but Together ya they can take him.

Edited November 24, 2013 by tunewalker

[Wolfninjajedi]

Oooops sorry I was following what others did....... point was Koon and Kenobi together can take Vader, separate I would think Vader would win but Together ya they can take him.

 

I'm not so sure, Vader does have a few advantages.

 

1. Superior Force/Lightsaber feats.

 

2. A lightsaber style that neither Obi-Wan nor Koon would know.

 

3. He isn't falling victim to CIS. (Character Induced Stupidity, pretty much the end duel in ROTS)

 

4. His armor being durable enough to withstand lightsaber hits.

 

5. His RIDICULOUS willpower.

 

6. He would do anything to win. He stabbed himself just to win against the doppleganger Maul.

 

Obi-Wan's main advantages during his duel with Anakin was that, he knew the ins and outs of Anakin's style and that Anakin's rage was pretty much blinding him from taking a step back and think for a minute. Those advantages here, are lost for Obi-Wan.

Edited November 24, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[tunewalker]

I'm not so sure, Vader does have a few advantages.

 

1. Superior Force/Lightsaber feats.

 

2. A lightsaber style that neither Obi-Wan nor Koon would know.

 

3. He isn't falling victim to CIS. (Character Induced Stupidity, pretty much the end duel in ROTS)

 

4. His armor being durable enough to withstand lightsaber hits.

 

5. His RIDICULOUS willpower.

 

6. He would do anything to win. He stabbed himself just to win against the doppleganger Maul.

 

Obi-Wan's main advantage during his duel with Anakin was that, he knew the ins and outs of Anakin's style and that Anakin's rage was pretty much blinding him from taking a step back and think for a minute. Those advantages here, are lost for Obi-Wan.

Which is why Obi-wan can not win 1v1, but Obi-wan is still powerful enough and skilled enough to make Vader work for it 1v1 and with back up From Plo Koon who while not as powerful as Vader he can still put in some good hits expecially if vader is busy dealing with Obi-wan all in all, yes its not going to be Mustafar but even with out him being dumb Obi-wan should still do ok against him (he would lose but not with out a fight) and with Koon being arguable just as powerful as Obi-wan together I doubt vader could take them.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Which is why Obi-wan can not win 1v1, but Obi-wan is still powerful enough and skilled enough to make Vader work for it 1v1 and with back up From Plo Koon who while not as powerful as Vader he can still put in some good hits expecially if vader is busy dealing with Obi-wan all in all, yes its not going to be Mustafar but even with out him being dumb Obi-wan should still do ok against him (he would lose but not with out a fight) and with Koon being arguable just as powerful as Obi-wan together I doubt vader could take them.

 

I'm not so sure, Vader is just on a whole other level than Obi-Wan to me personally looking at it.

Edited November 24, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[Aurbere]

I agree that Vader would probably defeat Plo Koon and Kenobi. However, it would be very difficult as they are more than capable of weathering Vader's attacks (Plo Koon was able to defend against Savage's attacks, who has shown similar strength to Vader). Obi-Wan would obviously be better at it as he is THE Master of Soresu.

 

But I agree with Wolf that Vader is more skilled than them. But together they pose a serious threat. It would be very difficult for Vader to best both of them at a time. One-on-one? Yeah, sure. Two-on-one, very difficult.

[tunewalker]

I agree that Vader would probably defeat Plo Koon and Kenobi. However, it would be very difficult as they are more than capable of weathering Vader's attacks (Plo Koon was able to defend against Savage's attacks, who has shown similar strength to Vader). Obi-Wan would obviously be better at it as he is THE Master of Soresu.

 

But I agree with Wolf that Vader is more skilled than them. But together they pose a serious threat. It would be very difficult for Vader to best both of them at a time. One-on-one? Yeah, sure. Two-on-one, very difficult.

 

Like I said I buy 1v1 ya Vader wins, but I don't think the skill level and force power level is so much greater that he can defeat them 2 on 1 I find it hard to believe any one under the top 5 would not have difficulty with these 2 in a 2 vs 1 fight They are high caliber masters and High caliber masters to me are and will always be incredibly close. Even if no doubt he wins 1v1 I find there is more then reasonable doubt to think he couldn't handle both of them.

[Selenial]

Like I said I buy 1v1 ya Vader wins, but I don't think the skill level and force power level is so much greater that he can defeat them 2 on 1 I find it hard to believe any one under the top 5 would not have difficulty with these 2 in a 2 vs 1 fight They are high caliber masters and High caliber masters to me are and will always be incredibly close. Even if no doubt he wins 1v1 I find there is more then reasonable doubt to think he couldn't handle both of them.

 

I dont think Traya would have an Issue

 

But yeh, Vader doesn't possess the Estoric powers that Sith like Krayt and Traya could use to defeat these 2...

[tunewalker]

I dont think Traya would have an Issue

 

But yeh, Vader doesn't possess the Estoric powers that Sith like Krayt and Traya could use to defeat these 2...

 

ANd I think you would be dead Wrong I think Traya would have an issue with Obi-wan alone. Let alone the 2 of them together, she may be more powerful in the force but her saber skills would be laughable by her own admition by comparison. The Golden era jedi were just as good as those ancient sith we know this from the Duel between Marka Ragnos and Jaden Kor. Traya wouldn't be able to take these 2 either.

[Beniboybling]

ANd I think you would be dead Wrong I think Traya would have an issue with Obi-wan alone. Let alone the 2 of them together, she may be more powerful in the force but her saber skills would be laughable by her own admition by comparison. The Golden era jedi were just as good as those ancient sith we know this from the Duel between Marka Ragnos and Jaden Kor. Traya wouldn't be able to take these 2 either.

Jaden Korr isn't a Golden Era Jedi nor can we really compare him with Kenobi and Koon accurately, nor does an individual possessed by a Sith spirit =/= ancient Sith Lord.

 

And then of course we have to remember that both of these games (which are only C-Canon*) were developed by different developers who cannot be expected to be compatible with one another or expected to be wholly accurate - characters statements are after all 'opinions' and not canonical fact. Traya never met the ancient Sith.

 

But that's off topic. Concerning Vader vs Kenobi and Koon I don't think we should assume that 1 + 1 = 2. If Kenobi and Koon alone are incapable of defeating Vader, can we really say that they can take him together? Doing so will not make their attacks anymore powerful or accurate, nor will it make their defenses any less exploitable, nor will it make them stronger or faster or more able to predict Vader's moves. Altogether it only adds one additional factor into the equation - multiple opponents - who not all duelists are susceptible to and some actually thrive in.

 

We should also not so readily dismiss Force powers as irrelevant in a lightsaber duel. Vader in particular was exceptionally at applying the Force in-situ, and could very well use it to micromanage his opponents.

 

Just some things to consider.

 

*What I mean by this is that those lower levels of canon give a less accurate and distorted image of the 'absolute truth'.

[tunewalker]

Jaden Korr isn't a Golden Era Jedi nor can we really compare him with Kenobi and Koon accurately, nor does an individual possessed by a Sith spirit =/= ancient Sith Lord.

 

And then of course we have to remember that both of these games (which are only C-Canon*) were developed by different developers who cannot be expected to be compatible with one another or expected to be wholly accurate - characters statements are after all 'opinions' and not canonical fact. Traya never met the ancient Sith.

 

But that's off topic. Concerning Vader vs Kenobi and Koon I don't think we should assume that 1 + 1 = 2. If Kenobi and Koon alone are incapable of defeating Vader, can we really say that they can take him together? Doing so will not make their attacks anymore powerful or accurate, nor will it make their defenses any less exploitable, nor will it make them stronger or faster or more able to predict Vader's moves. Altogether it only adds one additional factor into the equation - multiple opponents - who not all duelists are susceptible to and some actually thrive in.

 

We should also not so readily dismiss Force powers as irrelevant in a lightsaber duel. Vader in particular was exceptionally at applying the Force in-situ, and could very well use it to micromanage his opponents.

 

Just some things to consider.

 

*What I mean by this is that those lower levels of canon give a less accurate and distorted image of the 'absolute truth'.

 

I can not believe what I am reading here, it blows my mind.

 

 

First of all skill with a blade is skill with a blade the Spirit would have the same skill as they had when they were alive. The NJO can be directly compared to the Golden Era because we can compare them to how well Vader did against some Golden Era Jedi (the 6 he fought were masters but not of the exceptional level that Koon or Obi-wan are).

 

 

They are both C-cannon thus they are both on the same level of cannon and thus statements and events from both games are taken at the same level. We have no reason to disbelieve Traya's information about past Sith as she studied them we just can not say that people in the future suffer the same problem she does (not being any where near as skilled with a saber as the old masters) and in fact we have something that shows that the laters were on the same skill level while she was not. Ignoring it or dismissing it is dismissing C-cannon for fanboyism (yes I am being hostile sorry)(a.k.a you have a higher level of cannon that says other wise, because I highly doubt it as such we have to take it as is its the most ACCURATE picture your going to get as of right now)

 

 

If you really think that having a second Master with you makes no difference in a fight then I do not believe you have ever been in a real fight. While Vader can hold the Offense of 1 off he now has to hold the offense of 2 off both of them are exceptional masters much better then any of the Jedi he fought during the Purge. He would be able to beat either one of them 1v1 with some Effort he wouldn't one shot either one of them. Obi-wan after suffering much atrophy from his old age could still fight Vader 1v1 and hold him off for a decent amount of time. Obi-wan in his prime would give Vader a Hard time. Add in Plo Koon who is just as skilled and they can protect each other and through Vader off Guard and take advantage of those moments of him being thrown off guard. If it didn't matter at all Vader would not have considered training with 2 droids to be any different then training with 1 but he clearly saw it as a greater challenge and more worth while practice.

 

 

You can ignore this whole thing if you want, but personally I will probably just stop going into these Kaggaths if all kind of combat Logic and Cannon is going to be ignored any way, as argueing it would be entirely pointless.

Edited November 24, 2013 by tunewalker

[Beniboybling]

You can ignore this whole thing if you want, but personally I will probably just stop going into these Kaggaths if all kind of combat Logic and Cannon is going to be ignored any way, as argueing it would be entirely pointless.

Read over my post again, and decide if that's actually a justifiable reaction.

[tunewalker]

Read over my post again, and decide if that's actually a justifiable reaction.

 

I did, and I say it still absolutely is, if you truly think 2v1 Koon and Obi-wan Vs Vader will have no different outcome or that the 2 working together will not have greater attack or defending capabilities and wish to ignore C-cannon items with out having a higher cannon to go against them then I see a case of ignoring cannon and any kind of combat logic if the Kaggath is going to ignore such things then its entire meaning is pointless.

 

 

IF you wish to argue that Vader can beat them fine but if you want to argue that it wont be any different then him fighting either one of them 1v1 then argueing is pointless.

Edited November 24, 2013 by tunewalker

[Beniboybling]

I did, and I say it still absolutely is, if you truly think 2v1 Koon and Obi-wan Vs Vader will have no different outcome or that the 2 working together will not have greater attack or defending capabilities and wish to ignore C-cannon items with out having a higher cannon to go against them then I see a case of ignoring cannon and any kind of combat logic if the Kaggath is going to ignore such things then its entire meaning is pointless.

 

 

IF you wish to argue that Vader can beat them fine but if you want to argue that it wont be any different then him fighting either one of them 1v1 then argueing is pointless.

Fine, I'll just go ahead and post what I was going to post then.

[Beniboybling]

I can not believe what I am reading here, it blows my mind.

 

 

First of all skill with a blade is skill with a blade the Spirit would have the same skill as they had when they were alive. The NJO can be directly compared to the Golden Era because we can compare them to how well Vader did against some Golden Era Jedi (the 6 he fought were masters but not of the exceptional level that Koon or Obi-wan are).

 

 

They are both C-cannon thus they are both on the same level of cannon and thus statements and events from both games are taken at the same level. We have no reason to disbelieve Traya's information about past Sith as she studied them we just can not say that people in the future suffer the same problem she does (not being any where near as skilled with a saber as the old masters) and in fact we have something that shows that the laters were on the same skill level while she was not. Ignoring it or dismissing it is dismissing C-cannon for fanboyism (yes I am being hostile sorry)(a.k.a you have a higher level of cannon that says other wise, because I highly doubt it as such we have to take it as is its the most ACCURATE picture your going to get as of right now)

 

 

If you really think that having a second Master with you makes no difference in a fight then I do not believe you have ever been in a real fight. While Vader can hold the Offense of 1 off he now has to hold the offense of 2 off both of them are exceptional masters much better then any of the Jedi he fought during the Purge. He would be able to beat either one of them 1v1 with some Effort he wouldn't one shot either one of them. Obi-wan after suffering much atrophy from his old age could still fight Vader 1v1 and hold him off for a decent amount of time. Obi-wan in his prime would give Vader a Hard time. Add in Plo Koon who is just as skilled and they can protect each other and through Vader off Guard and take advantage of those moments of him being thrown off guard. If it didn't matter at all Vader would not have considered training with 2 droids to be any different then training with 1 but he clearly saw it as a greater challenge and more worth while practice.

 

 

You can ignore this whole thing if you want, but personally I will probably just stop going into these Kaggaths if all kind of combat Logic and Cannon is going to be ignored any way, as argueing it would be entirely pointless.

Does it? I don't think we should readily assume so. After all did Revan not engage and defeat the spirit of Ajunta Pall in lightsaber combat? Despite Pall supposedly being grossly superior to him? Heck that alone seems to debunk Traya's subjective interpretations. My point is that this is very vague logic trying to string together several different sources that are not necessarily compatible. We cannot forget that ultimately this is a fictional universe, its not real, we can't expect the developers of one game to say the same thing as another. And really I find it hard to believe that what Traya said was very accurate at all and was just a whim of Obsidian, given that we have no evidence to suggest that the NJO were exceptionally superior lightsaber duelists in the OT era.

 

It doesn't add up - we have a contradiction in canon here. But given that KOTOR 2 is only C-Canon and on top of that from a second-hand source/character statement no less - which is not canon by the way - (you can read about Sith Lords all you like but only though actually witnessing their abilities can you make a comparison, words can't really say much more than "they were great duelists") I'd conclude that its not a very valid source.

 

Indeed the idea that the Ancient Sith would be more skilled at all than later era's does not make sense either - as throughout the ensuing centuries the lightsaber forms were improved and refined, they did not degrade. Remembering they did not develop entirely independently, the Sith originated from the Je'Daii Order who continue to persist and improve their techniques for thousands and thousands of years.

 

And in the end, character statements are enough to support an argument in any situation - your going to need to put forward some actual objective evidence to back it up - yet the evidence suggests the contrary.

 

Anyway, that's not really relevant right now so lets leave that until it is, onto the relevant stuff.

 

What's going on here? I'm just making a point that Koon and Kenobi's individual strengths and weaknesses are not bolstered by them fighting together. That is correct is it not? Does anything that you have said contradict or invalidate that? No. Yet nowhere did I say that it didn't make a difference however, of course it does, in all the ways you are suggesting right here. Koon and Kenobi can protect one another in battle and work as a team etc. Heck did I even actually say this would mean Vader would win? No. I'm neutral here, I'm just trying to steer the argument in a direction that encourages to consider the important factors - so I can better reach a decision i.e. Vader's skill against multiple opponents and how Kenobi and Koon are going to counter those tactics as opposed to "Vader would struggle against Kenobi alone, throw Koon in there and its a done deal" kind of logic, which I don't find convincing.

 

Indeed I thought I was making a helpful suggestion, but its been treated like I've committed a crime and a basis for no longer participating in the Kaggath, and the worse part is you haven't said anything that proves I'm wrong. The worse part is I don't even disagree with what your saying and you can't even see that. Its ridiculous.

 

I was in fact hoping that this debate would prove more civil, but it seems others are intent to thwart those efforts. Though I never would have suspected something as innocent as a helpful suggestion would elicit such an outcry

 

P.S. No I haven't been in a 'real fight' but if engaging in violence with other people is what gets respect around here I'll see if I can find time to fit that into my schedule... anyone know where I can purchase a lightsaber?

Edited November 24, 2013 by Beniboybling

[tunewalker]

Does it? I don't think we should readily assume so. After all did Revan not engage and defeat the spirit of Ajunta Pall in lightsaber combat? Despite Pall supposedly being grossly superior to him? Heck that alone seems to debunk Traya's subjective interpretations. My point is that this is very vague logic trying to string together several different sources that are not necessarily compatible. We cannot forget that ultimately this is a fictional universe, its not real, we can't expect the developers of one game to say the same thing as another. And really I find it hard to believe that what Traya said was very accurate at all and was just a whim of Obsidian, given that we have no evidence to suggest that the NJO were exceptionally superior lightsaber duelists in the OT era.

 

It doesn't add up - we have a contradiction in canon here. But given that KOTOR 2 is only C-Canon and on top of that from a second-hand source/character statement no less - which is not canon by the way - (you can read about Sith Lords all you like but only though actually witnessing their abilities can you make a comparison, words can't really say much more than "they were great duelists") I'd conclude that its not a very valid source.

 

Indeed the idea that the Ancient Sith would be more skilled at all than later era's does not make sense either - as throughout the ensuing centuries the lightsaber forms were improved and refined, they did not degrade. Remembering they did not develop entirely independently, the Sith originated from the Je'Daii Order who continue to persist and improve their techniques for thousands and thousands of years.

 

And in the end, character statements are enough to support an argument in any situation - your going to need to put forward some actual objective evidence to back it up - yet the evidence suggests the contrary.

 

Anyway, that's not really relevant right now so lets leave that until it is, onto the relevant stuff.

 

What's going on here? I'm just making a point that Koon and Kenobi's individual strengths and weaknesses are not bolstered by them fighting together. That is correct is it not? Does anything that you have said contradict or invalidate that? No. Yet nowhere did I say that it didn't make a difference however, of course it does, in all the ways you are suggesting right here. Koon and Kenobi can protect one another in battle and work as a team etc. Heck did I even actually say this would mean Vader would win? No. I'm neutral here, I'm just trying to steer the argument in a direction that encourages to consider the important factors - so I can better reach a decision i.e. Vader's skill against multiple opponents and how Kenobi and Koon are going to counter those tactics as opposed to "Vader would struggle against Kenobi alone, throw Koon in there and its a done deal" kind of logic, which I don't find convincing.

 

Indeed I thought I was making a helpful suggestion, but its been treated like I've committed a crime and a basis for no longer participating in the Kaggath, and the worse part is you haven't said anything that proves I'm wrong. Its ridiculous.

 

I was in fact hoping that this debate would prove more civil, but it seems others are intent to thwart those efforts. Those I never would have suspected something as innocent as a helpful suggestion would elicit such an outcry.

 

P.S. No I haven't been in a 'real fight' but if engaging in violence with other people is what gets respect around here I'll see if I can find time to fit that into my schedule... anyone know where I can purchase a lightsaber?

 

Pal did not possess a physical body so as far as i know it was a force battle and no where does Traya suggest that the people of her time would be less powerful in the force thus it doesn't debunk any of what i said or what Traya said or the abilities of the Pre-quell knights and NJO knights.

 

 

No it is not correct to assume their individual abilities are not bolstered by being in a group, both will cover the others weakness and both will have there strength increase. Its about work efficiency, if you have ever taken an economics class its the same basic principle if one person can do 1 thing at a rate of ability and a person was added in that could do the same thing at a different rate of ability working together they will be on average massively more efficient then working alone the more people you add though the less efficient as they start getting in the way. This is why you never see Jedi in huge groups and why groups of 2-4 are preferred as it is the Most Efficient way of using their abilities. 2 Jedi working together are GREATER then the sum of their parts. So all-in-all no it is not correct to think that their individual strengths and weaknesses are not bolstered by having the other their to cover for those weaknesses and work to help their strengths both will be bolstered by a small to large degree.

 

If it were just a question of Vader against multiple opponents we have seen him take on multiple opponents multiple times and come out on top so by saying they would still suffer the same strengths and weaknesses and the only thing we have to ask is how does Vader do in groups is the same as saying Vader wins because its no different then him fighting Koon or Kenobi 1v1.

 

It wasn't a helpful suggestion as far as I read it, I read and still read from the original post (not this one thankfully) an ignoring of Cannon statements and any kind of group combat or work efficiency logic. Something that does get me up in arms pretty darn quick. I feel I was really civil but the way you worded your previous thing and what was said pushed me just the wrong kind of way. I know you never know what you will say that will get some one like that and i highly doubt it will affect any one the way it got me. Its funny how you guys get upset over certain things and i seem to go off from very different things. I know you want to keep it civil and so do I, but it is inevitable in any debate thread that something is going to be said that will rub some one the wrong way.

 

P.S you don't have to look for a fight to find one, at least I never did it finds you regardless of your wish to be in it or not.

Edited November 24, 2013 by tunewalker

[Beniboybling]

I don't disagree with any of this. Your barking up the wrong tree. Surely its not so hard to understand that in terms of lightsaber duels 1 + 1 does not equal 2? There are other factors to consider are there not? Is this not the staple point of logical debate in this field? It won't make them more accomplished duelists, or more powerful Force users. Edited November 24, 2013 by Beniboybling