We need to make cross server queues a reality

[illgot]

• PvE queues are long especially for DPS players
  
• PvE queues are impossible during off peak hours for anyone
  
• PvP queues can be long during off peak hours
  
• PvP queues will be even longer once GS is released
  

 

Once GS is released the wait time for games will become longer due to splitting the population even more.

 

Cross server queues need to become a reality soon or the queue wait time will become unbearable with a third game type competing for the already small population during off peak hours.

[Tsillah]

• PvE queues are long especially for DPS players
  
• PvE queues are impossible during off peak hours for anyone
  
• PvP queues can be long during off peak hours
  
• PvP queues will be even longer once GS is released
  

 

Once GS is released the wait time for games will become longer due to splitting the population even more.

 

Cross server queues need to become a reality soon or the queue wait time will become unbearable with a third game type competing for the already small population during off peak hours.

 

Can't say much about PvP, but I disagree for PvE.

 

Cross queue servers will not help PvE much because it's just more DPS waiting in the queue. The real question that needs to be addressed is why there are queues. The reason is not that there aren't enough tanks or healers but in my view the reasons are the following:

 

Poor rewards for FP's. FP rewards become obsolote very quickly. So why do them?

There are enough tanks and healers but they AVOID the GF for pugging.

 

Cross server queues do not solve these two issues. It's so easy to get 69 gear now with ops and oricon dailies that you don't need FP's anymore. How do you resolve that?

 

Tanks especially avoid pugging because it tends to cost them more credits than it gains them. Why waste your time on them? Stupid DPS who get their groups killed and totally undergeared healers are the two main reasons I stopped tanking in pugs. How do you resolve that?

 

Seriously, all servers surely have the same issue with queues. If you do cross server it just means the same problem on a larger scale and increased ninja looting on top of that.

[lordofdamornin]

Can't say much about PvP, but I disagree for PvE.

 

Cross queue servers will not help PvE much because it's just more DPS waiting in the queue. The real question that needs to be addressed is why there are queues. The reason is not that there aren't enough tanks or healers but in my view the reasons are the following:

 

Poor rewards for FP's. FP rewards become obsolote very quickly. So why do them?

There are enough tanks and healers but they AVOID the GF for pugging.

 

Cross server queues do not solve these two issues. It's so easy to get 69 gear now with ops and oricon dailies that you don't need FP's anymore. How do you resolve that?

 

Tanks especially avoid pugging because it tends to cost them more credits than it gains them. Why waste your time on them? Stupid DPS who get their groups killed and totally undergeared healers are the two main reasons I stopped tanking in pugs. How do you resolve that?

 

Seriously, all servers surely have the same issue with queues. If you do cross server it just means the same problem on a larger scale and increased ninja looting on top of that.

 

Someone with vision speaks here. The queues may (or may not) get shorter by going cross-server, but the problems that cause the queues in the first place only increase.

 

Riôt

[Maniigoldo]

• PvE queues are long especially for DPS players
  
• PvE queues are impossible during off peak hours for anyone
  
• PvP queues can be long during off peak hours
  
• PvP queues will be even longer once GS is released
  

 

Once GS is released the wait time for games will become longer due to splitting the population even more.

 

Cross server queues need to become a reality soon or the queue wait time will become unbearable with a third game type competing for the already small population during off peak hours.

 

agreed for pvp

as for pve its the same story like any other mmo's...if u r not a healer or tank then u will wait alot

[slafko]

Cross server queues need to become a reality soon ...

 

Legacy ignore option has to come before that.

[illgot]

Cross server queues does not solve the lack of tanks or healers, but it does help the queuing time because it takes players from a much larger pool.

 

There 59 DPS, 2 tanks, and 8 healers queuing up on server A. This can yield 2 instances of PvE.

 

There are 25 DPS, 5 tanks, and 2 healers queuing up on server B. This can yield 2 instances of PvE.

 

If server A and server B were combined that can yield 7 instances of PvE.

Edited November 18, 2013 by illgot

[MajikMyst]

In general, people need to stop looking at cross server as some holy grail that can solve anything..

[MajikMyst]

Cross server queues does not solve the lack of tanks or healers, but it does help the queuing time because it takes players from a much larger pool.

 

Actually that statement isn't true.. It is funny how the first part of your statement contradicts the last part.. The fact that the ratio of DPS to tanks or healers doesn't change with cross server, also means that queues will also go unchanged.. As really nothing has changed..

 

There 59 DPS, 2 tanks, and 8 healers queuing up on server A. This can yield 2 instances of PvE.

 

There are 25 DPS, 5 tanks, and 2 healers queuing up on server B. This can yield 2 instances of PvE.

 

If server A and server B were combined that can yield 7 instances of PvE.

 

Your math is flawed here because you are aren't considering the fact that their are more players.. So really their aren't any more instances of anything..

 

I would also like to see where you got those numbers.. Other than just being made up..

Edited November 18, 2013 by MajikMyst

[Trollokdamus]

Cross server queues does not solve the lack of tanks or healers, but it does help the queuing time because it takes players from a much larger pool.

 

There 59 DPS, 2 tanks, and 8 healers queuing up on server A. This can yield 2 instances of PvE.

 

There are 25 DPS, 5 tanks, and 2 healers queuing up on server B. This can yield 2 instances of PvE.

 

If server A and server B were combined that can yield 7 instances of PvE.

This guy gets it.

Cross-server tech is something that could improve the playing experience for everyone, but, unfortunately, Bioware are not working on it. Such a thing requires way too much resources and effort on their part, i guess. I'm not saying that they are not capable of it, as an average player i simply can't know that, but i sure know that they are unwilling to work on the cross-server direction.

Edited November 18, 2013 by Trollokdamus

[MajikMyst]

This guy gets it.

Cross-server tech is something that could improve the playing experience for everyone, but, unfortunately, Bioware are not working on it. Such a thing requires way too much resources and effort on their part, i guess. I'm not saying that they are not capable of it, as an average player i simply can't know that, but i sure know that they are unwilling.

 

No.. Actually he doesn't get it.. At least his math doesn't get it.. A bunch of made up numbers isn't going to change the reality of the actual situation.. Cross server will really not change much of anything because the underlying issue is unchanged.. The ratio of DPS vs. Tanks and healers..

[Tsillah]

Cross server queues does not solve the lack of tanks or healers, but it does help the queuing time because it takes players from a much larger pool.

 

There 59 DPS, 2 tanks, and 8 healers queuing up on server A. This can yield 2 instances of PvE.

 

There are 25 DPS, 5 tanks, and 2 healers queuing up on server B. This can yield 2 instances of PvE.

 

If server A and server B were combined that can yield 7 instances of PvE.

 

The ratio needed is 1:1:2 (tank, heal, dps). Your server A has a ratio of 1:4:30 roughly. I think 1:3:15 is more realistic. Server B is just wishful thinking. There is no way so many tanks would be queueing like that.

 

The added problem is that if you go cross server, how does it determine when it's your turn? If you are a dps you might actually end up with longer queue times depending on how the queue order is done.

 

Also you offer no solution to the increased ninja looting. Someone mentioned legacy block but legacy blocking can't be done because Legacy names are no longer unique. Also there may be people with the same character name queueing at the same time. How do you deal with that?

[MajikMyst]

The ratio needed is 1:1:2 (tank, heal, dps). Your server A has a ratio of 1:4:30 roughly. I think 1:3:15 is more realistic. Server B is just wishful thinking. There is no way so many tanks would be queueing like that.

 

The added problem is that if you go cross server, how does it determine when it's your turn? If you are a dps you might actually end up with longer queue times depending on how the queue order is done.

 

Also you offer no solution to the increased ninja looting. Someone mentioned legacy block but legacy blocking can't be done because Legacy names are no longer unique. Also there may be people with the same character name queueing at the same time. How do you deal with that?

 

^^

 

Now this guy gets it!!

 

[Trollokdamus]

No.. Actually he doesn't get it.. At least his math doesn't get it.. A bunch of made up numbers isn't going to change the reality of the actual situation.. Cross server will really not change much of anything because the underlying issue is unchanged.. The ratio of DPS vs. Tanks and healers..

This "made up numbers" are just a representation of a situation that each server has a different pool of tanks and healers ready for action at any given time. If you combine all the said pools into one, you will get more groups assembled and ready to go overall. More groups = more dps players involved, thus shorter queue times for them. It's that simple.

 

Also, if cross-realm grouping doesn't change the queue times as you claim, why is it used for all the puggable content in "that other game" this days? Just curious.

[Tsillah]

This "made up numbers" are just a representation of a situation that each server has a different pool of tanks and healers ready for action at any given time. If you combine all the said pools into one, you will get more groups assembled and ready to go overall. More groups = more dps players involved, thus shorter queue times for them. It's that simple.

 

Also, if cross-realm grouping doesn't change the queue times as you claim, why is it used for all the puggable content in "that other game" this days? Just curious.

 

I don't believe that each server has different pools. I think the issues are the same on each server and therefore combining them would either not help or be contraproductive.

 

The reason the other game does it may be very different. I have never played WoW but it could be tha the problem there is simply that not enough people were doing it but wanted to. I think the main problem here is different.

[MajikMyst]

This "made up numbers" are just a representation of a situation that each server has a different pool of tanks and healers ready for action at any given time. If you combine all the said pools into one, you will get more groups assembled and ready to go overall. More groups = more dps players involved, thus shorter queue times for them. It's that simple.

 

Also, if cross-realm grouping doesn't change the queue times as you claim, why is it used for all the puggable content in "that other game" this days? Just curious.

 

The problem is, his made up numbers are, made up.. Plus he is forgetting that adding more people to the pot does absolutely nothing.. If there is 1 tank per 10 DPS on one server then it is very likely that all servers will be in that general neighborhood.. So putting them all together isn't going to make any kind of sizeable change..

 

More groups is irrelevant.. You are ignoring the issue.. If there is a 10 to 1 ratio of DPS and tanks and a 10 to 1 ratio of DPS and tanks with cross server, what has changed??

 

More DPS can actually make the problem worse.. You need to change your thinking here.. It isn't about the number of groups or the number of players.. It is about the number of DPS Vs. the number tanks and healers.. That is all that matters right there.. If you want to see any changed in queue times, then you have to create more tanks and healers to match the number of DPS.. It is as simple as that..

 

Like I said.. Cross server isn't going to fix anything because all servers have the same issue when it comes DPS Vs. Tanks and Healers.. Some might have a little better ratio, while others might have a little worse.. In the end it will all average out to either no change or very little change..

 

Also, if cross-realm grouping doesn't change the queue times as you claim, why is it used for all the puggable content in "that other game" this days? Just curious.

 

Well.. Like here, there are some people that seem to think that cross server is the be all end all when it comes to fixing the GF queue issue.. WOW added it for the same reason.. People wanted it.. And it didn't do a darn thing.. Queue times were still incredibly long for DPS.. My record is 2 hours and 23 minutes with my Warlock.. My tank Paladin?? A whopping 2 minutes and some odd seconds.. Yes that is with cross server.. Not to mention on a server with over 20,000 people on it.. What people didn't realize is that cross server didn't change the ratio of DPS Vs. Tanks and Healers..

 

Then there is the issue of ninja looting.. Which became a real problem, and why Blizzard implemented their loot system that restricted need rolls.. Some that Bioware will have to consider if they do decide to go cross server..

 

In the end, cross server doesn't change much of anything.. It creates all kind of problems.. Like ignoring people cross server..

Edited November 18, 2013 by MajikMyst

[disxion]

Cross servers will only speed PvE queues if:

1. Ratios between servers are considerably different. However as it stands, this is not the case. There's an abundance of DPSs, significantly less healers and even less tanks on every server.

 

2. You are playing at off-hours. In such cases server population is considerably lower, meaning a higher likelihood that ratios between servers align and that there is viable pool of players.

[MajikMyst]

Cross servers will only speed PvE queues if:

1. Ratios between servers are considerably different. However as it stands, this is not the case. There's an abundance of DPSs, significantly less healers and even less tanks on every server.

 

2. You are playing at off-hours. In such cases server population is considerably lower, meaning a higher likelihood that ratios between servers align and that there is viable pool of players.

 

Well.. I am not sure I totally agree with that.. Playing during non peak hours is more of a toss up.. It can help one night or you can sit through a 4 hour queue the next..

 

Cross server really doesn't do much of anything for PVE.. Which is the problem with cross server in general.. It really doesn't do much of anything period.. As long as it has no impact on the ratios of DPS Vs. Tank and Healers.. It isn't going to do much..

 

About the only way that cross server would be of any benefit is when players didn't have to worry about roles.. Because then you are just looking at a larger pool of them.. As as you throw tanks and healers into the mix, forget it..

 

Edited November 18, 2013 by MajikMyst

[illgot]

Well.. I am not sure I totally agree with that.. Playing during non peak hours is more of a toss up.. It can help one night or you can sit through a 4 hour queue the next..

 

Cross server really doesn't do much of anything for PVE.. Which is the problem with cross server in general.. It really doesn't do much of anything period.. As long as it has no impact on the ratios of DPS Vs. Tank and Healers.. It isn't going to do much..

 

About the only way that cross server would be of any benefit is when players didn't have to worry about roles.. Because then you are just looking at a larger pool of them.. As as you throw tanks and healers into the mix, forget it..

 

 

can you direct me to the information where you found that at all periods of the day across all level brackets for all servers there is always going to be more healers than tanks queued.

[MajikMyst]

can you direct me to the information where you found that at all periods of the day across all level brackets for all servers there is always going to be more healers than tanks queued.

 

Can you direct me to the information that possessed you to make that post??

 

I said night time would be a toss up.. Meaning there is an element of chance or randomness.. How is that confusing??

 

Playing during non peak hours is more of a toss up..

 

So what part of that confuses you??

Edited November 18, 2013 by MajikMyst

[Trollokdamus]

Thing is, you guys both assume that at any given moment on any server there is the same ratio of tanks, healers and dps: a very little amount of tanks, a slightly higher number of healers and ton of dps. While i agree that this may be the general trend, i believe that this is not always the case. I believe that it actually can happen that sometimes a number of queued tanks is larger than the number of queued healers on certain servers. It heavily depends on RNG.

 

In WoW, when i queue for leveling dungeons, heroic dungeons and the "raid finder difficulty" raids, the local version of Group Finder often shows me that, for the dungeon/raid that is being assembled at the moment, tank slots are filled, but there is a lack of healers. A mere example from my own experience.

 

Anyway, none of us have any real data on our hands, so all we do here is making assumptions.

[MajikMyst]

Thing is, you guys both assume that at any given moment on any server there is the same ratio of tanks, healers and dps: a very little amount of tanks, a slightly higher number of healers and ton of dps. While i agree that this may be the general trend, i believe that this is not always the case. I believe that it actually can happen that sometimes a number of queued tanks is larger than the number of queued healers on certain servers. It heavily depends on RNG.

 

In WoW, when i queue for leveling dungeons, heroic dungeons and the "raid finder difficulty" raids, the local version of Group Finder often shows me that, for the dungeon/raid that is being assembled at the moment, tank slots are filled, but there is a lack of healers. A mere example from my own experience.

 

Anyway, none of us have any real data on our hands, so all we do here is making assumptions.

 

I make no assumptions.. I said in my post that there are times when it is better and times when it can be worse.. But you are making assumptions if you claim that cross server is going help the situation.. The numbers just aren't there..

 

There is nothing in your post that would be effected one way or the other with cross server.. And that is our point..

 

Anyway, none of us have any real data on our hands, so all we do here is making assumptions.

 

Actually that is not true.. We do have data.. We have both SWTOR and WOW that have similar issues when it comes to long queues while using LFG or GF.. Both games have the exact same problem.. An abundance of DPS when compared to Tanks and Healers.. There is a lot of data.. WOW has more serves than this game, and all of them have the same issue as there were people on their forums asking for cross server.. Just as there are people here asking for group finder.. I think that is enough observable evidence to come to some pretty basic conclusions..

 

Having played WOW when they add cross server, I can say from experience that it didn't do any good.. The numbers simply don't lie.. If the ratio remains unchanged then nothing changes..

 

I can say without a doubt cross server will not effect queue times here either.. Why?? No change in the ratios..

 

You can dismiss this all you want.. The fact is there is an overwhelming amount of data.. It is all pretty obvious to me..

 

Still none of you have addressed the other issues.. Ninja looting, (Blizzard had to make changes), Cross server ignoring, (Which could be a problem if you ignore someone with the same name as someone on your server or another server.)..

Edited November 18, 2013 by MajikMyst

[Loreki]

Cross server queues would, as previous posters have said, just change the scale of the problem it wouldn't reduce the problem.

 

It would add some new problems though. For example,loss of community. At present there is at least a chance you'll see people regularly and get to know them. Certainly in the past my guild has found new members this way, by people who constantly met us on pugs applying to join. Cross server pugs would be much more business and very little community or chat. I know PUGs aren't hang out spots at the moment, but you can meet some nice people.

 

There's also the anonymity problem. There are fewer downsides to behaving badly in a pug if you're never likely to see a player again, if they can't easily contact your guild to complain etc. While this may not a problem for a lot of puggers who are polite on principle there will be a distinct set of people who see their anonymity as an invitation.

[illgot]

Plus, PvE will be the least effected by GS.

 

GS is more of a PvP related queue which means regular PvP queues will have the largest impact, and I hope we can all agree that PvP queues are independent of class.

 

I mostly PvP, rarely PvE except to finish off a few planetary comms and gain social points.

[Count_Haake]

Actually that statement isn't true.. It is funny how the first part of your statement contradicts the last part.. The fact that the ratio of DPS to tanks or healers doesn't change with cross server, also means that queues will also go unchanged.. As really nothing has changed..

 

This directly implies that the distribution of the roles is more or less the same on all servers. But for several reasons it doesn't have to be that way. Be it purely random or because maybe on RP-servers certain classes/roles aren't played that often due to some RPing reasons.

While I agree that probably the deviations aren't that big that there would be a noticeable change for the whole of the playerbase, there might be clearly noticeable improvements for the players on certain servers.

 

Not that I really believe in this making a big difference, but before (jokingly) accusing other people of making up numbers... get your statistics 101 knowledge straight ;-D

[Khaleijo]

Another thing not thought about is, that there are many tanks, who list at least occasionally in the GF now, would stop doing that as soon as cross server queues are implemented. You can't count all the tanks who pug now to pug when cross server would come. The ratio tank:healer:dps will be worse than it is now.

 

It's not only the problem of ninja looting, but also the general behaviour will get even worse than it is now. Quitting groups with pulling mobs before, vote kicks without real reasons, harrassing just for the fun of it... all this is a lot "easier" if you don't have to care about your reputation on your server to be able to participate in any non FP groupcontent.

 

As you probably won't meet the players from other servers again, there are many who loose the thin layer of etiquette they had. Sad but unfortunately true, at least as far as i experienced Wow cross server queues.

You don't get consequences of bad behaviour, even if the majority of cross server tanks put you on ignore. That takes a long time until it causes any negative effects and has no incentive to play as a group player, who values his groupmates for more than being better NPCs helping to get the loot you want.

 

Cross server queues only doctor the symptoms but not the reasons why there are few tanks for pugs. That should be point to approach, why are there too many dps and too few tanks and what could change that effectively in the long term?

I wouldn't waste my time and my fun with tanking there and i don't know any tank who would. I and many others would stop pugging completely or restart searching my group by hand on my server.

-> no change for waiting times, they would get even worse.

 

The only argument that would count in my eyes is that during level content cross server maybe have a positive effect on waiting times. But is this "maybe" worth enough to bring all the negative effects into the game too?