Asajj Ventress Vs. Darth Malgus

[Darkelefantos]

I don't think Malgus has the beef to resist a Force push by someone like Ventress. Sidious praised her as being quite powerful, and grew afraid Dooku might feel tempted to take her for an apprentice and kill him for the position of Sith Master. He was pushed aside by both Shan and Darach, which shows Ventress also has a kindly good chance of pulling it off.

 

But you're stretching.

 

Guilty as charged, I was stretching it. Walking it off was a hyperbole. Still, the magnitude of Shan's blast was immense, and arguably larger than anything Ventress showed. And my point was that her Force abilites would not put her in a position to actually win outright. Which is not disproven by the fact that Darach managed to push Malgus.

If the fight against Malgus in the game is an indication of canon events, Malgus was immune to Force pushs (and other knockbacks) until his resolve weakened, by the way.

 

But maybe I'm simply not doing Ventress justice - I based my judgement of her mostly on her most recent appearances (TCW), in which she did not show anything impressive at all. Now, I was trying to go to Youtube for footage, but apparently there is a server issue right now, which a team of highly trained monkeys has to take care of.

 

EDIT: Oddly enough, Beni's link worked. Damn you IT monkeys!

Edited November 18, 2013 by Darkelefantos

[Beniboybling]

EDIT: Oddly enough, Beni's link worked. Damn you IT monkeys!

So I'm not the only one? I think I managed to get in before whatever happened happened.

 

I was going to post a video showing Malgus actually blasting someone (Ven Zallow) through a wall, which both demonstrates his power and how when wearing a heavy suit of armor and being powerful you can recover from such attacks quickly. Which Ven Zallow did. Malgus would fare even better.

[Xakthul]

I feel okay about using this as a source, because Karpyshyn didn't write it:

 

In Deceived (the book), Malgus overwhelms several Jedi using both the Lightning and his Force Scream. Remember, he could feed on the anger, love, or fear of his enemies, too. He seems to be quite able to use Force Scream against Zallow's former Padawan just fine, and all he had to fuel it was her rage. He was almost calm.

[Xakthul]

Ventress simply couldn't withstand an attack of such magnitude and would be battered down in short order.

 

"We cannot withstand firepower of that magnitude":mon_tongue:

[Beniboybling]

"We cannot withstand firepower of that magnitude":mon_tongue:

Lol that was even deliberate.

[Stinghen]

I think Ventress would lose. Stinghen refers to Malgus' form as 'brutish' but it was effective. And on top of that such brute force tactics are Ventress' number one weakness. Or rather the inherent weakness of Makashi:

 

However, the greatest flaw of the Makashi system of combat was its lack of kinetic energy; the focus on precision and blade control hampered the ability to generate momentum in both its offensive and defensive maneuvers, leaving the attacks easily shunted aside and its parries easily battered aside. This lack of physical force left Makashi practitioners vulnerable to duelists utilizing more contemporary forms, which emphasized power and brute strength.

 

--Taken from Wookieepedia

 

There is more to a fight than straight up lightsaber sequences. Weaving in cosistently Force-based attacks can overpower a brutish Force-user, cause an opening or at least anger him till he makes a crucial mistake. Ventress could use the terrain (if possible) or taunts to get on top and induce Malgus to act precipitately. Saying that is not a stretch - psychological attacks tend to be very effective, and just because nobody is seen wielding it against Malgus doesn't mean it would not work.

 

Besides, if you look back in our little discussion, you'll see I said that if Ventress had some cards to play, such as high ground to explore and places to hide, she would at least give Malgus one hell of a head ache, if not a few missing limbs to go with a hard-fought victory or a shameful defeat. But if the duel took place in a flat place where Ventress had no choice but to meet Malgus blade-to-blade, I called Malgus the victor, and not because of Makashi's inherent weaknesses, which I think people overplay at times (they place it all on form and none of it on Force-enhanced abilities, which I will discuss in a moment).

 

No observe

Malgus utterly devastate Darach, a Jedi Battlemaster no less, simply by battering him down. Ventress simply couldn't withstand an attack of such magnitude and would be battered down in short order.

 

There's a little conditional that turned the tide on the duel with Darach. After the Jedi Master poked Vindican with the glow-stick, Malgus became empowered by anger. That meant his poor bladework and predictable sequences were too strong for Darach to handle and wound up in the Jedi's demise. So, unless Malgus can magically summon that sort of anger empowerment without anything to cause it, that duel doesn't serve much in Malgus' favour. Instead, look to the duel against Ven Zallow, who, on top of probably being a finer duelist than Darach, fought a far more skilled, but not empowered by rage, version of Darth Malgus.

 

Force rage made Kenobi slice Maul's saber in two, Anakin beat Dooku, and Luke beat Vader, to mention a few examples. All that stood above form, weaknesses of particular forms or arising from debilitating condition. Pure, simple Force-fueled combat, which is the core of lightsaber dueling between Force users in my opinion, from Shii-Cho to Juyo.

 

Besides, Ventress had a more lithe build that much facilitated Force-enhanced acrobatics, which could easily get her off the path of a ravening Sith Warrior and his light-hammer sequence.

 

On top of that, Ventress is an inferior Force User made quite evident via their various displays. I saw mention of Malgus not favoring lighting in battle but that is not strictly true, on two occasions (which makes up for about a third of Malgus' engagements) he has exploded lightning in the midst of a one-on-one lightsaber duel.

 

Malgus did not employ lightning in lightsaber duels, not on the sources I know of (the three videos, which depicted three milestones in Malgus' life, where he overcame some pretty high-profiled people). He relied instead on simpler, unrefined, but far more reliable Force abilities. Watch the videos, you'll see that to be true. He used lightning once against Jace Malcolm (not a lightsaber duelist, but a Republic grunt) and again in the Sacking of Coruscant, against an unseen target, which has at best a 50% chance of being a lightsaber wielder, which means this instance cannot factor into any considerations.

 

And Malgus' lightning was devastating, a single off hand blast was enough to fry a Jedi Knight and two Padawans - killing them instantly. Dooku's lightning alone was enough to completely subdue Ventress, and I regard Malgus to be demonstrably more powerful than Dooku. Ventress struggled even to block Dooku's lightning.

 

And yet the pub grunt with no Force skills (Jace Malcolm) could resist being insta-friend by the "oh-so-powerful" lightning, and even try to push forward against said lightning.

 

And I would very much like to see in which instances Ventress struggled to block Dooku's lightning. It better not be on their first encounter on Rattatak, because that was a completely different and unrefined Ventress. Even if she couldn't resist lightning while in her prime days (such as towards the end of the Clone Wars), a sufficiently skilled lightsaber duelist (that's Ventress, fancy that) would be enough to dissuade Malgus from using it at all in a duel.

 

Force based attacks on Ventress's part would however be largely unsuccessful. Ventress cannot 'push him through a wall' she's simply not that powerful and has never done that before, and any attacks that do hit Malgus can tank - which means rapid recovery and he won't feel the pain. He certainly won't be winded considering the armour he is wearing which would protect him from impact. How would Ventress fare on the other hand? Badly.

 

Ventress would fare badly granted Malgus could get an opening for a Force push out of her. And he's wearing armour, not a cushion. Armour still transmits much of impact, it's only good to turn blades and blaster bolts. And marginally at that, even Sith armour wasn't enough to weather a lightsaber chop to the arm. Whether or not Ventress can push him through a wall is irrelevant - she can still push him onto it hard enough. Do that head-first (as most pushes seem to do) and you hit Malgus where there'd be no Sith armour to protect him - his ugly bald precious head.

 

In terms of Dun Moch, it would end in resounding failure. Malgus was immune to taunts by way of Force rage, a state in which Malgus was constantly in when in battle, he probably wont even comprehend Ventress' attempts to undermine him and if he does it will only make him more angry - see the boomerang effect.

 

He called Force rage at a whim then? Oh, hey, it's Venty, FORCERAGEARGHALRGLARB!!!! This sort of thing needs a very particular trigger. Having Ven Zallow leaping around him and smashing his face with a lightsaber didn't trigger Force rage on Malgus, only seeing his master cut down like a dog, and being thrown up against a mountain did that to him. Another instance, when he saw there was no chance for victory on Ord Radama, and all his effort at conquering it went down the drain, that triggered a rage and a scream that were devastating.

 

Very extreme situations all three.

 

The only way Ventress can win is to run away and lure Malgus into a trap, but even then Malgus has remarkable durability and can survive intense levels of pain without even being phased. Ventress is just outclassed.

 

I didn't say Ventress would hit him until the pain became too strong. I just said hitting him hard once opens him little enough for a little bit of pain he can't really avoid at all - a lightsaber poke/chop.

 

EDIT: For the record, Ventress has never been confirmed to have mastered a single lightsaber form.

 

Jar'kai. She was said to have overcome the main weakness of the style. It does not factor exactly as a lightsaber form, but it's a very specific style of combat that played very well into her every duel. Moreover, she had a little something Malgus doesn't - versatility. Outside of the use of the Force in combat (both to enhance her fighting skills and to toss Malgus about), she could fight with either a double-bladed lightsaber or two sabers. This could easily catch Malgus off-guard, as he would have to reassess the situation and adapt to a new fighting style.

 

Also, she was able to stalemate Jedi Council members, and that's no small feat. There were crap duelists skilled at a single form and gifted duelists with little form instruction. Luke's the latter, when he dueled Vader on Bespin. And he held the Sithy for quite a bit of time for a half-trained Jedi. Ventress had Dooku's instruction, which was invaluable, and the gift of experience.

 

Finally, I invoke a little argument that can also place Ventress a little higher even to the fanbase of Darth Malgus. She dueled and came on top of General Grievous. Grievous not only fought with lightning-fast strikes, but also committed to many repetitive sequences of power attacks in order to wear down his foes. Just like a certain Darth Malgus I know. So she can, if prepared enough, resist even Malgus' style blade to blade, long enough for her to change her fortune at the least.

[Aurbere]

EDIT: For the record, Ventress has never been confirmed to have mastered a single lightsaber form.

 

Simple observation would tell us that she was a master Jar'Kai duelist.

[Xakthul]

Simple observation would tell us that she was a master Jar'Kai duelist.

 

But wasn't Malgus a master in Soresu and one of the other "brute" forms?

[Aurbere]

But wasn't Malgus a master in Soresu and one of the other "brute" forms?

 

All I know is that he was a practitioner of Shien/Djem So. No idea where you heard that he was a practitioner of Soresu.

[Xakthul]

All I know is that he was a practitioner of Shien/Djem So. No idea where you heard that he was a practitioner of Soresu.

 

I think they state it in Deceived (again the book)

[Aurbere]

I think they state it in Deceived (again the book)

 

I own the book, and I've never seen it mentioned. I'll have to look through it.

[Beniboybling]

Simple observation would tell us that she was a master Jar'Kai duelist.

Simple observation says otherwise.

 

A master of any form would not have been so thoroughly schooled by Dooku.

[Beniboybling]

Finally, I invoke a little argument that can also place Ventress a little higher even to the fanbase of Darth Malgus. She dueled and came on top of General Grievous. Grievous not only fought with lightning-fast strikes, but also committed to many repetitive sequences of power attacks in order to wear down his foes. Just like a certain Darth Malgus I know. So she can, if prepared enough, resist even Malgus' style blade to blade, long enough for her to change her fortune at the least.

Grievous grossly underestimated Ventress and as such his technique was visibly sloppy and unrefined. If that had not been the case I expect he may have won.

 

Regardless Malgus is far far stronger than Grievous. Far stronger.

[Aurbere]

Simple observation says otherwise.

 

A master of any form would not have been so thoroughly schooled by Dooku.

 

Right, you're going to need more than that. The comics indicate that she had eliminated the weaknesses inherent in Jar'Kai.

[Beniboybling]

OK before we move forward lets clear up a few discrepancies.

 

Firstly regarding Malgus' use of lightning in duels. I find it a little bizzare that you might not have considered that three cinematics (introduced before SWTOR was released) gives you a comprehensive knowledge of Malgus' capabilities. I can assure you they do not, since then he has appeared in many, many other source materials. In such material he used Force lightning, in the midst of a lightsaber engagement, against an unnamed Zabrak Jedi and Lord Adraas.

 

Secondly, Ventress has displayed herself to be vulnerable to Force Lightning attacks which she both has difficulty reflecting and once struck is instantly subdued. Here is an instance of Ventress struggling to block Dooku's lightning, and here and here we have instances of Dooku subduing with such a Force-based attack. The latter instance should bear close examination, notice how Dooku utterly dominates Ventress with the Force - Malgus could do the same.

 

Thirdly, we have the idea that Malgus will be winded/stunned by a Force Push. His armor will provided him more than adequate protection, because funnily enough it does act as a cushion. This is Star Wars we are talking about here, not the Middle Ages. See

Ven Zallow goes clean through a wall, is he 'winded'? Does he stop for a little breather? No, he gets right back up and keeps fighting. Ventress can't even deal that much impact, he'll be fine.

 

And fourthly, Malgus can indeed draw on Force Rage to amp his abilities at a whim. He was an absolute master of the technique earning the praise of Darth Sidious himself - remembering that rage is the primary source of Sith power. He requires no trigger, because he learned how to summon his anger through pure strength of will. Indeed prior to the attack on the Jedi Temple Malgus filled himself with so much rage that he would have killed his own men if not for the Jedi ready and waiting to be slaughtered. And slaughter them he did. Ventress is going to have to handle that.

 

EDIT: Oh and I forgot to mention that Ventress has never stalemated or defeated any High Jedi Council members, this is a lie propagated by trolls and goblins. Don't believe it.

Edited November 19, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

Right, you're going to need more than that. The comics indicate that she had eliminated the weaknesses inherent in Jar'Kai.

She managed to overcome the strength disadvantage as far as I'm aware, hardly mastery.

[Stinghen]

Simple observation says otherwise.

 

A master of any form would not have been so thoroughly schooled by Dooku.

 

Did you really just disconsider that fact that, though Ventress was a skilled duelist, so was Dooku? With the little added twist that Dooku trained Asajj Ventress himself, so he would most likely know many of her tricks and precisely how she fought? Also, the fact that Dooku was a Dark Lord of the Sith, much older, stronger in the Force, more tried and experienced than Ventress? And the little detail Dooku was a master duelist of the quality to go toe-to-toe with Mace Windu and Master Yoda and live. No. Ventress losing to Dooku is not a demerit to her fighting style, nor is it any display of lack of mastery of Jar'kai.

 

Grievous grossly underestimated Ventress and as such his technique was visibly sloppy and unrefined. If that had not been the case I expect he may have won.

 

Regardless Malgus is far far stronger than Grievous. Far stronger.

 

You assume Grievous underestimated Ventress. There's no proof of that. A guy who kills Jedi for a living isn't keen on underestimating anyone. And don't tell me "technique was visibly sloppy": All fights in the animated series look sloppy and artificial, having no fluidity.

 

And no, Malgus wasn't stronger than Grievous. Malgus was more powerful (there is a difference that is more than semantic). Grievous was a bloody robot, his strength was mechanical, he didn't need gorilla muscles or the Force to deliver power blows. In fact, his cybernetic limbs allowed him to both apply a lightning-fast fighting style and impress upon power attacks at the same time. So I'm sorry, Ventress winning a bladelock with Grievous means she can pack up some punch even against Malgus' lightclub fighting style.

[Aurbere]

EDIT: Oh and I forgot to mention that Ventress has never stalemated or defeated any High Jedi Council members, this is a lie propagated by trolls and goblins. Don't believe it.

 

Now you're just being silly.

[Beniboybling]

Now you're just being silly.

Yes, yes I am.

[Beniboybling]

Did you really just disconsider that fact that, though Ventress was a skilled duelist, so was Dooku? With the little added twist that Dooku trained Asajj Ventress himself, so he would most likely know many of her tricks and precisely how she fought? Also, the fact that Dooku was a Dark Lord of the Sith, much older, stronger in the Force, more tried and experienced than Ventress? And the little detail Dooku was a master duelist of the quality to go toe-to-toe with Mace Windu and Master Yoda and live. No. Ventress losing to Dooku is not a demerit to her fighting style, nor is it any display of lack of mastery of Jar'kai.

Replace Dooku with Malgus and you've got an argument.

 

Anyway, in regards to your point. Yes Dooku is an accomplished duelist and a powerful Force User. However I feel that if Ventress was indeed a master lightsaber duelist herself, she would have fared better. She should have. Of course she would not have one, not a chance, but she would not have lost so very badly. Which unfortunately she did.

 

Is this a demerit to her abilities? No and I never present it as such. Does it conflict with the notion that she is a master lightsaber duelist (which as been nowhere explicitly stated), yes I feel it does.

You assume Grievous underestimated Ventress. There's no proof of that. A guy who kills Jedi for a living isn't keen on underestimating anyone. And don't tell me "technique was visibly sloppy": All fights in the animated series look sloppy and artificial, having no fluidity.

 

And no, Malgus wasn't stronger than Grievous. Malgus was more powerful (there is a difference that is more than semantic). Grievous was a bloody robot, his strength was mechanical, he didn't need gorilla muscles or the Force to deliver power blows. In fact, his cybernetic limbs allowed him to both apply a lightning-fast fighting style and impress upon power attacks at the same time. So I'm sorry, Ventress winning a bladelock with Grievous means she can pack up some punch even against Malgus' lightclub fighting style.

There is a wealth of proof but I plan to discuss that in an analysis on Grievous I'm planning, so I'll leave that for now.

 

And Malgus achieves strength through the Force. Physical strength. Much like Sidious and Dooku. I mean how do you explain how Ventress had enough strength to withstand that attack? Are we implying she is stronger than Malgus.

 

I'm guessing there's something I missing here. Because I don't understand this.

 

EDIT: All the fights in the Clone Wars do not look sloppy and artificial and I do take that as a personal insult.

Edited November 19, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Stinghen]

Replace Dooku with Malgus and you've got an argument.

 

Anyway, in regards to your point. Yes Dooku is an accomplished duelist and a powerful Force User. However I feel that if Ventress was indeed a master lightsaber duelist herself, she would have fared better. She should have. Of course she would not have one, not a chance, but she would not have lost so very badly. Which unfortunately she did.

 

Is this a demerit to her abilities? No and I never present it as such. Does it conflict with the notion that she is a master lightsaber duelist (which as been nowhere explicitly stated), yes I feel it does.

 

I don't think Malgus is a very good duelist. Mind you, my standard for comparison is the three videos, Return, Hope and Deceived. In none of them he stands out as a masterful duelist, just a power-hitter fond of hammering down his opponents (in Return and Hope), but against a far more skilled lightsaber duelist such as Ven Zallow, Malgus had to break a sweat, being forced to clumsily dodge a lightsaber sweep instead of parrying because his own blade was kept at the wrong place at the wrong time. It nearly cost him, but luckily for him Zallow made a mistake. He's un-creative, relying mostly on muscle to wear down his opponents. He may be a practiced hand with Djem So, but so was Anakin, and Anakin displayed fine swordsmanship in Episode III. Malgus is an ape with a lightsaber.

 

I understand you probably have read somewhere that the mighty powerful unstoppable Darth Malgus (who's supposed to be the Darth Vader of The Old Republic) is a master of this-that-and-those lightsaber styles, but that's not what the Bioware dev team showed me with those three videos. Make no mistake, I like Malgus' character, how he stomps along the hypocrisies of the Empire, and especially how he rebelled against the Emperor and made an Empire of his own, but he's not the largest dog in the pack, although he certainly is the fiercest.

 

I think of his abilities as I think of Ventress'. He's a powerful Sith Lord but who's ultimately dwarfed by the real dealers in power: the Dark Council and the Sith Emperor, just as Ventress is the underling to Tyranus and Sidious both. Same practical position screams same power to me, I admit that heavily influences my opinion. But suffice to say that the way Malgus is portrayed in the three videos also heavily influences my opinion on Malgus.

 

And Malgus achieves strength through the Force. Physical strength. Much like Sidious and Dooku. I mean how do you explain how Ventress had enough strength to withstand that attack? Are we implying she is stronger than Malgus.

 

I'm guessing there's something I missing here. Because I don't understand this.

 

EDIT: All the fights in the Clone Wars do not look sloppy and artificial and I do take that as a personal insult.

 

The point you missed is the fact that Malgus' Force-enhanced strength is not necessarily greater than Grievous' mechanical strength. In fact, I have a fancy (despite how powerful people think the Force should make a Force-user), a 2,3 metres tall robot can easily push off greater strength than even a Force-empowered gorilla like Malgus. Add that to the fact Grievous is much faster than Malgus and we have one hell of a contest. This is the guy who chopped down many a Jedi, mate. You can't possibly think none of them could hold their own against Darth Malgus. And if Ventress could hold her own against the Jedi killing-machine, bred to kill Force-users (Jedi, Dark Jedi, Sith, all wield a lightsaber and all fight alike), a hulking mass of steel lightning-fast robot brutality, to say she couldn't have a chance against any of Malgus' predictable, repetitive power attacks is to me quite a stretch.

 

Did you design the fights on TCW? Please make a better job then, because they look ridiculous, artificial, sloppy and forced to me. You can't judge finesse of form from that mess like you can from an actual fight performed by trained martial arts choreographers.

[Beniboybling]

I don't feel any of the above has any real factual basis, it all seems based on subjective assumptions and speculation to which mine differ. So I'm not sure I see much purpose in responding. Unless you have something to back it up with.

 

i.e. That's your opinion, Manneus.

[Bird_of_Thunder]

I don't feel any of the above has any real factual basis, it all seems based on subjective assumptions and speculation to which mine differ. So I'm not sure I see much purpose in responding. Unless you have something to back it up with.

 

i.e. That's your opinion, Manneus.

 

Best line in game

[Selenial]

EDIT: All the fights in the Clone Wars do not look sloppy and artificial and I do take that as a personal insult.

 

I KNEW IT!

 

He's Dave Filoni...

 

I knew it all along

[fdbgjfdhjgkjdhsg]

I would have to agree on Malgus being the victor here but I still wouldn't underestimate Ventress. She was able to defeat grievous in a lightsaber duel with grievous using all four sabers. She was also able to withstand grievous kicking her with his big clawed spiky foot and get back up as I recall. Just watch the clone wars episode "Massacre" and you'll see what I mean. Ventress would also be able to dodge lots of Malgus's attacks just like she was able to dodge Savage Opress's attacks being she is very good at martial arts. I would give it a 50% chance that Ventress would win or cripple him. If Ventress won it would be the second time the big buff malgus got beaten up by a girl. I would love to see some scrawny chick like Ventress beat up Malgus like she beat up grievous. It would also look bad on his record like getting force pushed into a rock face and maybe getting his butt kicked over Ilum.