Offhand damage pettition

[NYzMikey]

I think offhand damage not scaling is a feature not a bug. This game has a lot of features.

[Siokai]

I think offhand damage not scaling is a feature not a bug. This game has a lot of features.

 

Spoken like a programmer

[StyxzieWaterz]

I believed they balanced our weapon damage so we wouldnt be ahead of other classes.

 

If they allow OH dmg to scale like main hands we're going to get very op very fast. We'd easily do more dmg than guardians. If they change OH scaling then they have to either:

 

-Nerf ability dmg and coefficients across the board

 

or

 

-Buff every other class's weapon dmg to our level.

 

Both would make the buff to OH dmg null.

 

I do agree it's quite...unfortunate that the 2nd saber is a stat stick. However, I see no balanced way of fixing things.

[MBirkhofer]

I believed they balanced our weapon damage so we wouldnt be ahead of other classes.

 

If they allow OH dmg to scale like main hands we're going to get very op very fast. We'd easily do more dmg than guardians. If they change OH scaling then they have to either:

 

-Nerf ability dmg and coefficients across the board

 

or

 

-Buff every other class's weapon dmg to our level.

 

Both would make the buff to OH dmg null.

 

I do agree it's quite...unfortunate that the 2nd saber is a stat stick. However, I see no balanced way of fixing things.

 

top 1 hand light saber. level 58. 459 top end damage.

 

top double bladed sabre. level 58. 551 too end damage.

 

offhand 459x.3=138x.6(accuracy)= 83.

459+83=542. our dual wield untalented does less damage then a single double bladed sabre. and we need to spend twice as much credits/tokens to do it.

Why do I HAVE to spend 3 points in offhand mastery to make my base damage on par with everyone elses? I am dual wielding, shouldn't my base be HIGHER?

Also, why is my force powers ALSO exactly the same? Blade storm, force crush, sweep, ataru,etc. get zero bonus from dual wield.

Edited January 1, 2012 by MBirkhofer

[Siokai]

top 1 hand light saber. level 58. 459 top end damage.

 

top double bladed sabre. level 58. 551 too end damage.

 

offhand 459x.3=138x.6(accuracy)= 83.

459+83=542. our dual wield untalented does less damage then a single double bladed sabre. and we need to spend twice as much credits/tokens to do it.

Why do I HAVE to spend 3 points in offhand mastery to make my base damage on par with everyone elses? I am dual wielding, shouldn't my base be HIGHER?

Also, why is my force powers ALSO exactly the same? Blade storm, force crush, sweep, ataru,etc. get zero bonus from dual wield.

 

Technically, the double-bladed saber is...double bladed. But I agree with you. We should have higher damage than double-bladed especially since our ONLY role is DPS.

[russmanOR]

your offhand saber is a visual stat stick. its the Focus of the sentinel class, and it is how it is.

[LordSkyKnight]

Are you actually upgrading your offhand lightsaber? Cuz the values are going up for me when I increase the weapon's combat rating with better mods... although very slowly (since I don't think it's modified by Power at all).

 

With DW Spec talent, your offhand hits for 66% of weapon damage whenever you use an ability, whereas your mainhand weapon damage is added to the ability damage (and is modified by Power).

 

It would be nice if offhand hits applied a second instance of the ability damage, at the 66% value instead of just hitting for 66% of weapon damage. I think that would fix a lot of the QQ of Sent DPS being subpar (at least Combat feels pretty lackluster to me).

 

The talent increases offhand damage by 36% if you get all three points. Thats 36% of the weapons damage, it does not stack with the base damage.

 

 

Also what russmanOR said is true pretty much.

Edited January 1, 2012 by LordSkyKnight

[TEHDARKNEZZ]

yeah they really need to increase the effectiveness of the Sentinel's Offhand, that class just isn't very good as it is. It feels like that second lightsaber is there for almost no reason. It should do the same as it does in Dungeons and Dragons (dual wielding), same damage, lower accuracy.

[Spideyknight]

It's a stat stick. Your stat stick is just visible unlike focus's and shields.

[Lomerell]

Pretty sure only the hilt increases rating, i.e damage range, as it states in the tooltip.

 

Tested and confirmed.

[Lomerell]

Tested and confirmed.

 

Forgot to add that purple hilts have higher weapon ratings (thus damage) than blue, and blue more than green.

[Aakerboom]

/ signed

 

hop for fast fix

[Coramac]

There is nothing to fix here.

 

There are five components in our melee attacks:

 

1.) Mainhand damage- 100% of weapon damage

2.) Offhand damage- 30% of weapon damage

3.) Bonus damage- based on Strength and Power

4.) Ability bonus damage- +x based on level of ability

5.) Ability Coefficient- applies to Mainhand, Offhand, and Bonus damage

 

Mainhand and Bonus damage are displayed together when damage is dealt, possibly ability bonus as well.

 

Offhand damage is just offhand damage. That's it.

 

Example:

 

Mainhand- 200 dmg

Offhand- 200 * .3 = 60 dmg

Bonus- 100 dmg

Ability- 100 dmg

Coefficient- 2x

 

Formula looks like:

Mainhand displayed damage- (Mainhand * Coefficient + Bonus * Coefficient + Ability)

Offhand displayed damage- (Offhand * Coefficient)

 

(200 * 2 + 100 * 2 + 100) = 700 damage displayed for mainhand attack

(60 * 2) = 120 displayed for offhand attack

 

This confuses many people. There is no double dipping on the bonus damage and all the added damage is displayed on the mainhand. As a result, pop up damage looks very skewed when this is not the case.

 

If you look at weapon contribution to damage, the offhand contributes exactly 30% of what the mainhand contributes.

 

As far as increased damage when leveling up, this is due to the fact that our stats go up when we level. This means we have more Strength. This addes to bonus damage. Bonus damage is displayed on the mainhand in the character screen. It has no impact on offhand.

[Aakerboom]

what do you thinks af keeping the damage the same. but add the Melee damage bones ?

 

that makes the jedi sentinel what it is.

[Coramac]

what do you thinks af keeping the damage the same. but add the Melee damage bones ?

 

that makes the jedi sentinel what it is.

 

They're just avoiding stat double dipping. Thematically, they could just take half the bonus damage and apply to mainhand, half to the offhand, but that would hurt mainhand only abilities.

Edited January 6, 2012 by Coramac

[HaleTheFreeVoice]

signed

 

 

but think about kotor and every other dual wielding game, when has offhand ever been scaled to your main hand? lol it goes with the whole "im better with one hand" thing right?

[Coramac]

If I read correctly, he's not talking about scaling it to the mainhand. He's refering to the fact that bonus damage is not applied to the offhand.

 

Left-Axe DAOC I believe had no damage penalty for off-hand.

[SuperPancho]

/signed

 

I hate the fact it feels like I have a katana in one hand, and a fly swatter in the other, I believe fixing this will bring us up to par with other classes

[HaleTheFreeVoice]

ohhh okay he means like the talents arent doing basically?

 

i doubt it i haven't seen a difference at all, its not like it gimps me completely if anything its just w.e., if you are modded and geared and blahblahblah up to date you should be alright. but thats just me so idk *** im talking about lol

[mrmikeymills]

top 1 hand light saber. level 58. 459 top end damage.

 

top double bladed sabre. level 58. 551 too end damage.

 

offhand 459x.3=138x.6(accuracy)= 83.

459+83=542. our dual wield untalented does less damage then a single double bladed sabre. and we need to spend twice as much credits/tokens to do it.

Why do I HAVE to spend 3 points in offhand mastery to make my base damage on par with everyone elses? I am dual wielding, shouldn't my base be HIGHER?

Also, why is my force powers ALSO exactly the same? Blade storm, force crush, sweep, ataru,etc. get zero bonus from dual wield.

 

/Signed

 

Kudos. Very methodical and articulate way of demonstrating how the Sentinel's offhand weapon is - in my opinion - nerfed. The damage bonus (from Strength, Power, buffs, etc.) is NOT applied to the offhand saber. Thus, upgrading offhand saber with higher stat hilts has a minimal effect.

 

To be a viable Sentinel, the offhand still needs to be accommodated for with high rating hilts, but the overall effect is still inferior to that of the double-saber. Indeed the double-saber has a clear DPS and resource advantage (costs less to upkeep).

 

I'm surprised many of the posts neglected to mention the fact that the offhand saber has a ridiculously low accuracy rating as well (I think its base is 57% for melee and 63% for 'special attacks'). Cumulatively, its damage is ridiculously low - when it hits - and as it is, it misses OFTEN.

 

I sent a "bug report" in game articulating this very issue. Having low accuracy, low % damage (30% base, can be increased to 66% with dual mastery skill), and no damage bonus seems overkill.

 

Not only does this effect the play style/effectiveness of the Sentinel, it seems silly based on logic/lore - indicating that Sentinels are not actually ambidextrous. Instead, they appear to be quite clumsy in their "offhand".

 

I think SuperPancho said it best as "a fly-swatter in the [offhand]".

 

My suggestion: Increase accuracy to that of the main-hand and split the damage equally among the two sabers. Maybe not 100%/100% (may make the Sentinel/Maurader overpowered) but something like 80%/80%. And have the damage bonus (from stats and buffs) have a similar, equal-split effect (again, something like 80%/80%).

[Coramac]

/Signed

 

Kudos. Very methodical and articulate way of demonstrating how the Sentinel's offhand weapon is - in my opinion - nerfed. The damage bonus (from Strength, Power, buffs, etc.) is NOT applied to the offhand saber. Thus, upgrading offhand saber with higher stat hilts has a minimal effect.

 

This is not a nerf. SWTOR does not allow bonus damage double dipping. This is actually smart and important. In WoW for exampe (for a very long time), abilities used mainhand only. The only benefit to DWing was auto-attacking. Here, abilities use offhands and there are not auto-attacks. As a result, the way they are handling things is very appropriate. Off-hand specialization adds ~10% damage a lot of abilities. I didn't think it was very good at first, but in hindsight, I was wrong.

 

To be a viable Sentinel, the offhand still needs to be accommodated for with high rating hilts, but the overall effect is still inferior to that of the double-saber. Indeed the double-saber has a clear DPS and resource advantage (costs less to upkeep).

 

Double Saber also requires offhand upkeep. Resource advantage is minimal or does not exist. We do not need higher rated hilts.

 

Additionally, MBir's numbers are wrong. He used off-hand accuracy penalty for 0 accuracy rating but did not treat the mainhand accuracy at 0 accuracy rating but rather for 328 accuracy rating. This skews the numbers in favor of the double saber. The appropriate comparison is...

 

551 * .9 = 495.9

vs.

459* .3 * .57 + 459 * .9 =491.6

 

The difference is less than 1%.

 

Using offhand specializtion:

 

It's 495.9 vs. 585.8 and an 18.1% advantage for DWing.

 

As the numbers reflect, this puts them on equal terms.My suggestion: Increase accuracy to that of the main-hand and split the damage equally among the two sabers. Maybe not 100%/100% (may make the Sentinel/Maurader overpowered) but something like 80%/80%. And have the damage bonus (from stats and buffs) have a similar, equal-split effect (again, something like 80%/80%).

 

This suggestion makes Dual Wielding grossly overpowered. You'd need a 50/50 split. This would only create an aesthetic difference at equal accuracy ratings. It would also have a negative impact on abilities that use mainhand only.

[MBirkhofer]

This is not a nerf. SWTOR does not allow bonus damage double dipping. This is actually smart and important. In WoW for exampe (for a very long time), abilities used mainhand only. The only benefit to DWing was auto-attacking. Here, abilities use offhands and there are not auto-attacks. As a result, the way they are handling things is very appropriate. Off-hand specialization adds ~10% damage a lot of abilities. I didn't think it was very good at first, but in hindsight, I was wrong.

 

 

 

Double Saber also requires offhand upkeep. Resource advantage is minimal or does not exist. We do not need higher rated hilts.

 

Additionally, MBir's numbers are wrong. He used off-hand accuracy penalty for 0 accuracy rating but did not treat the mainhand accuracy at 0 accuracy rating but rather for 328 accuracy rating. This skews the numbers in favor of the double saber. The appropriate comparison is...

 

551 * .9 = 495.9

vs.

459* .3 * .57 + 459 * .9 =491.6

 

The difference is less than 1%.

 

Using offhand specializtion:

 

It's 495.9 vs. 585.8 and an 18.1% advantage for DWing.

 

 

 

This suggestion makes Dual Wielding grossly overpowered. You'd need a 50/50 split. This would only create an aesthetic difference at equal accuracy ratings. It would also have a negative impact on abilities that use mainhand only.

100% hit rate is pretty accurate. Apparently, only strike is not a "special attack"

That said, the 60% accuracy was not.

100% main hand, 67% offhand acc would be the most accurate assessment.

Wherein:

551

459* .3=137.7 * .67=92.2 + 459 =551.2

that makes more sense now, doesn't it.

 

Still stand by, we need 2 weapons for the same damage argument though. And to talent to get it to be on par with what should be baseline. Thats bs.

Edited January 9, 2012 by MBirkhofer

[Coramac]

100% hit rate is pretty accurate. Apparently, only strike is not a "special attack"

That said, the 60% accuracy was not.

100% main hand, 67% offhand acc would be the most accurate assessment.

Wherein:

551

459* .3=137.7 * .67=92.2 + 459 =551.2

that makes more sense now, doesn't it.

 

Still stand by, we need 2 weapons for the same damage argument though. And to talent to get it to be on par with what should be baseline. Thats bs.

 

That's interesting. I wonder if thats a bug or not. Specials shouldn't have that kind of hit rate. Although, I suppose the defense reduction is really the advantage at that point.

 

It's not total BS on the two weapons. They do still need an offhand. It's an advantage, but it's not huge. They suffer a pretty substantial penalty for offhands that are below level.

[K_osss]

I was under the impression that Slash was also not a "special attack". I thought all force powers were special attacks and therefore had 100% hit rating, but physical attacks such as Strike, Slash etc... were 90% hit rating. Basically "white numbers" vs "yellow numbers". Maybe this is too simplistic.

[MBirkhofer]

Accuracy appears to be a left over early beta stat.

And they don't know what to do with it.

 

In early beta, bosses did have 10% defense, So, you did need 110% hit rate.

As far as anyone can tell. currently, they do not.

The whole, normal, special thing. Reeks of a design change along the way. Bizarre that which is which, is not more superficial.

 

Acc over 100% actually BEING armor/resist pen, and being able to make values go negative would be an amazing way to make ACC viable and viable past 100%. but its not. its -defense. which is only as good as your targets def rating.