DPS Commando PvP theory crafting

[Beast]

Ok here is my 2 cents to this discussion.

 

Yes i believe AS has more Mobility, your correct on that. You also talk about how fighting premades is gonna cause you to move a lot more, which i also agree with. However to me gunnery has a crap load more burst, which to me is the difference maker in PvP.

 

If i was a healer, and i see the dot and the widdling down of damage with maybe 1 or 2 good size drop in health, i would immediately see that i need to heal my friend. And have plenty of time to do so.

 

If i was a healer and saw my friend drop from 100% to 5% in 3 seconds, it would immediately create a lot more pressure on me to get this last heal off before my friend dies (which they usually do).

 

You both are striking valid points with theory crafting. But i just prefer gunnery purely because the burst to me is much more devastating to opposing teams. When you walk around 3-4 shotting people, not having to stand still for very long, especially if your first grav round crits, that healer has to react FAST.

 

You have plenty of stuns, knock backs, to keep people in your range, cause all you need is 3 seconds max to bring them into panic mode.

 

 

also side discussion going on, there is a Powertech on the emp side named Spar, seen him reach 493k damage. Full Geared, its very possible folks!

 

Edit: Just got 430k today in alderaan. While defending mid and left side. I think the more people gear up, the higher these numbers are gonna be.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Beast

[Raiffe]

I'm in agreement with Beast on this. I went Gunnery spec, and haven't looked back. Cast times and limited instant skills just mean more situational awareness. I haven't run into anything that truely caused me a problem, and when I did, no spec/class would be able to get out of it.

 

Overall damage is nice, burst is downright awesome, enough defensive skills to keep me out of trouble.

[Scotfo]

A couple things about your thread:

 

Hi Kenmuir! There are quite a few blatant inaccuarcies with pretty much everything you've stated in regards to my post. Several of your innacuaracies were actually addressed in responses beyond my original post. Based on this, I can only assume that you did not take the time to read the entire thread. I'm not saying you didn't; I'm saying your responses seem to indicate you did not. Here are a few corrections (my responces in Italics) I hope will clarify a few things!

 

1. You're wrong on how AP cell works. It does give you 35% armor pen just like Target Lock give you 3% accuracy. It's an additive buff not a multiplicative buff.

 

Yes. It does give you 35% armor penetration. My point was is that we are not sure how armor penetration, as a mechanic, is implemented in this game. If you do know how it is implemented, please refer a source where you obtained this information.

 

2.Your understanding of the effects of how armor reduction works is wrong. Going from a 30% damage reduction to 24% damage reduction is not a 6% damage increase. It's an 8.5% damage increase. You go from dealing 70% damage up to 76% damage.

 

Your discussing the mathematical accuracy of a hypothetical. I specifically state it was a hypothetical. Within a hypothetical where I am creating the variables anything is possible. I was simply using that as an example to show that the mistaken belief some individuals had that 20% armor reduction does not translate into 20% DPS increase. Your above statement appears to confirm my assertion.

 

3.You're wrong about Gunnery being a rotation system. It's a priority system. At lower levels it might feel like a rotation, but I recommend you go look at some theorycraft to see the priority system for Gunery.

 

I never state that gunnery must use a rotation. I actually correct another poster who, like you, did not understand my assertion correctly. I can only assume that you did not take the time to read my thread in it's entirety, otherwise you should have known this. So, I am not "wrong" as you put it; because I never stated any such thing

 

4. Dot's wont do much for you, considering how few Assault has. A three ammo ability(Incendiary Round), Plasma Cell(16% proc), and Plasma Grenade(the only time you would every use this awful 4 ammo ability is with reserve powercell). I don't know how useful having multiple kinds of attacks will be. But Assault seems to have Weapon Damage Attacks and Elemental Attacks while Gunnery seems to have Kinetic and Weapon Damage attacks.

 

You assertion here is: "Your DoT's won't do much for you". You provide nothing to back this up mathematically or show exactly how much of AS damage is contributed to our DoT's. If you can provide the math that includes all variable to prove you case; I will concede you this. Until that time I will wait for some more solid evidence.

 

5. The increase on HIB over gunnery is roughly about even to the buff from Charged Barrel, except HIB does less DPS than Charged Bolts so it's a slight ammo gain for dps loss.

 

You have provided no definitive proof to back up your assertion here. Even the above statement fails to account for variables revolving around high mobility fight where you may not be able to get up all stacks of the Charged Barrel buff. Without hard data obtained from combat logs you'll have a hard time convincing me. Don't get me wrong, if this is indeed the case I would love to know for my own benefit.

 

6. Assault most likely will not have better cell management, due to Cell Charger likely being better than Ionic Accelerator. I'll do the math later, but 1 ammo on every ability you use versus a chance to proc a free shot just seems better to me, but I'll look at it later.

 

I have to agree with you on this one. The only issue with proc based resource regeneration mechanics is that they tend to cause your ammo management to fluxuate constantly. One moment you may be starting to get low on energy and suddenly due to a proc streak you end up having an over abundance.

 

7. You state that since we don't have all the facts we can't postulate anything worthwhile. I just disagree with that. Newton didn't have the Laws of Relativity but he still came up with good approximations in his Laws of Motion.

 

Newton also had enough preliminary data and mathematical genius to begin his theory with a sound bases. I don't believe we do. I also think it's silly for anyone on a forum to compare what they are postulating to anything Newton did. Also, on a separate note: There is a lot of Newton's work that is becoming obsolete or proven incorrect. A simple Google search of "Theory of Relativity Wrong" will pop up with countless scientific journals discussing the reasons why. I'm getting off topic here so I will digress.

 

8.Just because we can't have hard parse of the different damage levels does not mean that one of the specs is not ahead of the other. Being blind doesn't mean that things don't have color.

 

Right, and color is irrelevant to a blind man. Color is also perceived differently by each individual where as mathematical fact deals in absolutes. I am not quite sure where you were going with that metaphor. I'm not trying to mock you here. I'm legitimately confused.

 

Theorycraft is a looping cycle, you come up with a theory, decide what needs to be changed or accounted for, and then come up with another theory. It's just like every other scientific experiment ever done. Just this time it's done with math, mostly because the game is run on a sequential difference engine(AKA a computer).

 

The problem is that you are not theorycrafting. You are stating opinions based on incomplete math and attempting to pass it off as fact. Theorcrafting involves taking variables that are known and grounded in fact(that can be backed by a source) and building from there. We do not have the available information to do this yet. Right now we only can make guesses, form opinions, and that's about it. I have no problem with any of this. What I do have a problem with is when opinion is asserted under the guise of fact.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Scotfo

[Kenmuir]

First thing, use the quote system, it's there for a reason.

 

1. You're wrong on how AP cell works. It does give you 35% armor pen just like Target Lock give you 3% accuracy. It's an additive buff not a multiplicative buff.

 

Yes. It does give you 35% armor penetration. My point was is that we are not sure how armor penetration, as a mechanic, is implemented in this game. If you do know how it is implemented, please refer a source where you obtained this information.

 

Was it too hard for you to go out and test this? I'll admit most mobs appear to have like 10% damage reduction, so it might be hard to see, but you just need to use the cell and compare the damage to not having it on.

 

2.Your understanding of the effects of how armor reduction works is wrong. Going from a 30% damage reduction to 24% damage reduction is not a 6% damage increase. It's an 8.5% damage increase. You go from dealing 70% damage up to 76% damage.

 

Your discussing the mathematical accuracy of a hypothetical. I specifically state it was a hypothetical. Within a hypothetical where I am creating the variables anything is possible. I was simply using that as an example to show that the mistaken belief some individuals had that 20% armor reduction does not translate into 20% DPS increase. Your above statement appears to confirm my assertion.

 

It distracts from your argument when the correct math is super easy and right in front of you. But, you refused to do it, appearing to imply that the damage increase from armor pen was more difficult to calculate than it actually is.

 

3.You're wrong about Gunnery being a rotation system. It's a priority system. At lower levels it might feel like a rotation, but I recommend you go look at some theorycraft to see the priority system for Gunery.

 

I never state that gunnery must use a rotation.

 

Right. Here's a recap of what you said:

This comes at no surprise when you consider how much smoother it is to get into a sustainable rotation with Gunnery and many people find AS a bit difficult to sustain a rotation with...compare this to AS where there isn't really a rotation but more of a priority system

 

Somehow AS has a difficult rotation system, simply hitting HIB instead of Charged Bolts is really hard compared to keeping tract of 5 different buffs that Gunnery has to deal with. You also appeared to imply that gunnery doesn't have a priority system by drawing a contrast to AS which is"more of a priority system" than a rotation.

 

4. Dot's wont do much for you, considering how few Assault has. A three ammo ability(Incendiary Round), Plasma Cell(16% proc), and Plasma Grenade(the only time you would every use this awful 4 ammo ability is with reserve powercell). I don't know how useful having multiple kinds of attacks will be. But Assault seems to have Weapon Damage Attacks and Elemental Attacks while Gunnery seems to have Kinetic and Weapon Damage attacks.

 

You assertion here is: "Your DoT's won't do much for you". You provide nothing to back this up mathematically or show exactly how much of AS damage is contributed to our DoT's. If you can provide the math that includes all variable to prove you case; I will concede you this. Until that time I will wait for some more solid evidence.

 

Here's a deal for you. You provide the math that shows you deal meaningful damage with those dots and I'll point out the errors in your post. Deal?

 

You won't accept my statement that the few situational DoTs that you do have might not be very useful, why? What do you need? The damage values are on Torhead if you really want to check.

 

5. The increase on HIB over gunnery is roughly about even to the buff from Charged Barrel, except HIB does less DPS than Charged Bolts so it's a slight ammo gain for dps loss.

 

You have provided no definitive proof to back up your assertion here. Even the above statement fails to account for variables revolving around high mobility fight where you may not be able to get up all stacks of the Charged Barrel buff.

 

Your right. I already did this earlier in the thread, that the cooldown reset on Ionic Accelerator is an equivalent damage increase for HIB to Charged Barrel. Although there was the assumption that you had infinite ammo and could chain cast Grav Round/Charged Bolts. The conclusion was that each cast of Grav Round/ Charged Bolts increased the damage you deal with HIB about the same. And in this best case scenario you averaged ~1 HIB cast instead of a Charged Bolts. And it's much more difficult to calculate the damage increase because Charged Bolts scales better, and you might start ammo capping yourself.

Without hard data obtained from combat logs you'll have a hard time convincing me.

But you had an easy time convincing yourself that you were right.

 

6. Assault most likely will not have better cell management, due to Cell Charger likely being better than Ionic Accelerator. I'll do the math later, but 1 ammo on every ability you use versus a chance to proc a free shot just seems better to me, but I'll look at it later.

 

I have to agree with you on this one. The only issue with proc based resource regeneration mechanics is that they tend to cause your ammo management to fluxuate constantly. One moment you may be starting to get low on energy and suddenly due to a proc streak you end up having an over abundance.

 

And AS has the same problem, except it causes GCD problems instead of ammo problems.

 

7. You state that since we don't have all the facts we can't postulate anything worthwhile. I just disagree with that. Newton didn't have the Laws of Relativity but he still came up with good approximations in his Laws of Motion.

 

Newton also had enough preliminary data and mathematical genius to begin his theory with a sound bases. I don't believe we do.

 

Why? What data are we missing? We have all the coefficents for spells, all of the effects for talents, all of the priority systems, what more do we need? The only thing that I can think of off the top of my head is the exact formula for Armor -> damage reduction(mostly because it's logarithmic).

 

 

I also think it's silly for anyone on a forum to compare what they are postulating to anything Newton did. Also, on a separate note: There is a lot of Newton's work that is becoming obsolete or proven incorrect. A simple Google search of "Theory of Relativity Wrong" will pop up with countless scientific journals discussing the reasons why.

 

I think you did not understand the metaphor. Newton certainty didn't have all of the data, hence my example of the Laws of Relativity, but he was still able to come up with good approximation that were accurate for human scale things. Just because on a few fringe cases(the sizes of atoms/universes) his work isn't accurate doesn't mean it wasn't useful and could not be useful.

 

 

8.Just because we can't have hard parse of the different damage levels does not mean that one of the specs is not ahead of the other. Being blind doesn't mean that things don't have color.

 

Right, and color is irrelevant to a blind man. Color is also perceived differently by each individual where as mathematical fact deals in absolutes. I am not quite sure where you were going with that metaphor. I'm not trying to mock you here. I'm legitimately confused.

 

It was a response to this statement:

 

Until then, all this debate is rather pointless and players should just pick whichever playstyle they are more comfortable with.

 

You seem to be implying that just because we "can't figure it out right now" that it doesn't matter. That somehow there isn't a better spec and a weaker spec.

 

Theorycraft is a looping cycle, you come up with a theory, decide what needs to be changed or accounted for, and then come up with another theory. It's just like every other scientific experiment ever done. Just this time it's done with math, mostly because the game is run on a sequential difference engine(AKA a computer).

 

The problem is that you are not theorycrafting. You are stating opinions based on incomplete math and attempting to pass it off as fact. Theorcrafting involves taking variables that are known and grounded in fact(that can be backed by a source) and building from there.

 

You have to start somewhere. I choose to start with simple best case scenarios because they are easier to compute on a napkin for a forum than it is to complete a computer program that maps out the probability trees to calculate average damage. And then after that we can start changing the variables to accommodate more things. But to say I cant start theorycrafting because the first things I did were not complete cases, is just wrong.

 

 

We do not have the available information to do this yet.

 

You accuse me of making statements of fact, but that's all you've done. You haven't even tried to show anything, either by example or math. I've provided several mathematical examples to compare things and all you've done is find "errors" in my posts.

 

 

Right now we only can make guesses, form opinions, and that's about it. I have no problem with any of this. What I do have a problem with is when opinion is asserted under the guise of fact.

 

You must be missing the part where I'm showing my opinion and stating my reasons, because that's what I'm doing, just this time I try to use math to show my side of the argument.

[Scotfo]

Hi Kenmuir! Let me start by saying this: I am not against you here. I want you to be right. I want you to present a complete case and show definitively which spec is superior. This knowledge would, after all, benefit me. I would also like to clarify the difference between your position and my own. You have stated that you have a position concerning the spec's (that Gunnery is superior). I have made no such claim that one spec is superior. I have actually done the opposite by stating that mine is the belief we can not definitively show which spec is superior; the key word here being "definitively".

 

What I am, is an observer on these forums where you have decided to assert your claims. This puts us in different roles. You are the propagator of an opinion that you are attempting to make a case for, and convince others of, on these forums. My responses to you are just that: responses. The burden of proof in this scenario falls on you, not me. It is my responsibility(and the responsibility of every intelligent person here) to point out what I(we) see as flaws in your case and not simply accept your assertions at face value.

 

On the issue of using quotes: I apologize. I am not usually a regular forum poster. I am still learning the general etiquette of forum posting. Now onto my responses.

 

Was it too hard for you to go out and test this? I'll admit most mobs appear to have like 10% damage reduction, so it might be hard to see, but you just need to use the cell and compare the damage to not having it on.

 

You do not have an accurate way of keeping track of this damage without damage logs. This is based on your observations and opinion. This is not fact.

 

It distracts from your argument when the correct math is super easy and right in front of you. But, you refused to do it, appearing to imply that the damage increase from armor pen was more difficult to calculate than it actually is.

 

This is argumentative and irrelevant to the subjects at hand. You are still arguing the intangible definitive's of a hypothetical.

 

Right. Here's a recap of what you said:

 

Quote:

This comes at no surprise when you consider how much smoother it is to get into a sustainable rotation with Gunnery and many people find AS a bit difficult to sustain a rotation with...compare this to AS where there isn't really a rotation but more of a priority system

 

Somehow AS has a difficult rotation system, simply hitting HIB instead of Charged Bolts is really hard compared to keeping tract of 5 different buffs that Gunnery has to deal with. You also appeared to imply that gunnery doesn't have a priority system by drawing a contrast to AS which is"more of a priority system" than a rotation.

 

Your recap is you taking my words and putting them into your own context and for your own benefit. This is not what I was saying. Once again, I responded to a similar poster who did not understand the point I was attempting to make. I took this as a mistake on my part and assumed it was my fault for not wording my point as well as I could have. I also took the time to clarify this with a response in my thread. Someting you failed to include.

 

Here's a deal for you. You provide the math that shows you deal meaningful damage with those dots and I'll point out the errors in your post. Deal?

 

You won't accept my statement that the few situational DoTs that you do have might not be very useful, why? What do you need? The damage values are on Torhead if you really want to check.

 

I am not making the case that it does provide meaningful damage. My point is, I do not believe that you can prove otherwise with a sufficient degree of accuracy without hard data to back yourself up.

 

Your right. I already did this earlier in the thread, that the cooldown reset on Ionic Accelerator is an equivalent damage increase for HIB to Charged Barrel. Although there was the assumption that you had infinite ammo and could chain cast Grav Round/Charged Bolts. The conclusion was that each cast of Grav Round/ Charged Bolts increased the damage you deal with HIB about the same. And in this best case scenario you averaged ~1 HIB cast instead of a Charged Bolts. And it's much more difficult to calculate the damage increase because Charged Bolts scales better, and you might start ammo capping yourself.

 

I did read this. It was math based on the criteria of an immobile target and where ammo regeneration does not come into play, a scenario that does not exist within the game. It did not take into account sustainability, movement, and the effects of various de-buffs that may be on a raid boss or person in PvP at any given time. The math was incomplete.

 

But you had an easy time convincing yourself that you were right.

 

Convincing myself I was right about what?

 

And AS has the same problem, except it causes GCD problems instead of ammo problems.

 

Right, I was agreeing with you. I think your under the impression I was/am making a case against Gunnery. I am not.

 

Why? What data are we missing? We have all the coefficients for spells, all of the effects for talents, all of the priority systems, what more do we need? The only thing that I can think of off the top of my head is the exact formula for Armor -> damage reduction(mostly because it's logarithmic).

 

How various cross-class buff's and debuffs affect DPS and how they interact with each other for one. How mobility translates into DPS in a real-raid scenario. The specifics of how other core mechanic like armor penetration works; or if the tooltip is a badly phrased way of referring to armor reduction. These among other variables.

 

I think you did not understand the metaphor. Newton certainty didn't have all of the data, hence my example of the Laws of Relativity, but he was still able to come up with good approximation that were accurate for human scale things. Just because on a few fringe cases(the sizes of atoms/universes) his work isn't accurate doesn't mean it wasn't useful and could not be useful.

 

Correct! I did not understand your metaphor. You may have had a valid point behind it, but the words you used and the way you put it forward did not communicate your point to me. Also, I believe you read to much into my statement on Newton. It was more of a "fun fact" about Newton then anything else. It was not meant to correlate to anything you said. Also, again I reiterate: comparing anything you, I, or anyone else here says to Newton is just silly.

 

You have to start somewhere. I choose to start with simple best case scenarios because they are easier to compute on a napkin for a forum than it is to complete a computer program that maps out the probability trees to calculate average damage. And then after that we can start changing the variables to accommodate more things. But to say I cant start theorycrafting because the first things I did were not complete cases, is just wrong.

 

This is an opinion. Yours to be precise. I disagree. I come from the side that believes we need more information to accurately make assertions and believe we have not reached that point yet. I believe anything stated at this point should be portrayed as opinion and speculation at best. You disagree. That's fine. We are of two differing opinions and will most likely never convince each other otherwise.

 

You accuse me of making statements of fact, but that's all you've done. You haven't even tried to show anything, either by example or math. I've provided several mathematical examples to compare things and all you've done is find "errors" in my posts.

 

I'm not accusing you of anything. Accusing implies that I think you did something wrong and should be punished. I don't think this at all. The fact is, that regardless of your actual intent may be, you have presented a case that Gunnery is superior. You have not deviated from this line of reasoning and have presented your case from the standing that this is fact. Even if this is not your actual intent, the way you have presented your case conveys this message. So, of course people who disagree with you are going to respond and point out the flaws they see. Refer to my original statement at the top of this post.

 

You must be missing the part where I'm showing my opinion and stating my reasons, because that's what I'm doing, just this time I try to use math to show my side of the argument.

 

This seems to be a continuation of the prior comment. My response would be the same as the one above.

 

I conclude by saying this: I don't want you to stop what your doing. You seem like an intelligent enough person. You just don't have enough evidence to convince me of your point of view at this time.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Scotfo

[Grandpappy]

I thought that PvP was about burst your target down faster you can.

 

Give up all the Damned Gunnery Burst for an "easy healable" damage and a pretty unreliable snare?

 

No ty.

 

Try a spec 31 Gunnery 10 AS? Maybe.

 

But atm i'm doing too good with my 7/32/2 Spec.

I tried AS spec with my Commando and i found it totally lacking in burst damage on PvP.

 

I'm going to agree with Juhalanz here...I respec'd to AS the other night after being Gunnery since the beginning and I felt like I was running around throwing matches on people wearing flame retardant suits.

 

It does come down to which play style are you best at? If you like running around throwing matches on people or standing in the pocket and burning people down.

 

I like the AS spec but it just lacks burst damage and I NEED my burst damage

[SteveMo]

Dear Commando's,

 

 

Commando DPS in PvP is a Joke compared to other classes as a whole. When going against DECENTLY geared people at level 50 you will see the LIGHT, or as I call it, THE DARK.

 

Gunnery is awful. Cast Times / Weak CC and no ranged interrupt. Sure, if you can sit back like Rambo you will do damage and get kills. Good luck w/ that once people figure it out.

 

AS Pretty much allows you to LOS, Get off some Decent CC and be a little ***** and annoy people. DOT damage is alright, but seems low for a proc rate on Hammer Shot activating Plasma Cell

 

Medic Gunnery Lack Burst just like AS, but you can survive and spot heal and WIN! Your the ultimate support class. Stick next to some Jedi's and you'll make friends in no time!

 

Unless your rockin some serious PvP gear, all DPS specs of Commando aren't good. I'm a level 50 Commando and have played all 3 specs and 6 hybrid specs. Honestly, a few tweeks that I suggested and commando's would be alright. Let's hope Bioware's not like Blizzard and actually listen to the players.

 

My overall Opinion, Don't PvP as Commando Unless your in a premade group. You'll be frustrated. Thanks for your time.

 

 

Love,

SteveMo

Edited January 16, 2012 by SteveMo

[Zekeiele]

Steve did you find and medic hybrids decent?

[DarkGreenGames]

You are all looking strictly at damage and rotations. There are many more factors in which spec you want to go as in pvp. I have seen both Gunnery and Assault do amazing dps. I chose Gunnery because I prefer the control it gives vs the increased mobility of assault.

 

Also don't forget about set bonuses. I run gunnery with 2 pvp and 2 pve set items on the gunnery tree. 15% increased crit rate for grav round is amazing not to mention a 15 second cooldown on concussion charge. 15 seconds on concussion charge with a second smaller knockback is amazing. What is more, Full auto is an AMAZING crowd controlling ability for the gunnery tree as it slows target movement.

 

I do admit that I have problems once in a while with holding channeled spells or being interrupted during grav round however the amazing burst that I can put out makes up for it.

 

I am not saying that assault isn't a good pvp spec. I have tried it and love the survivability and mobility that it provides. However I usually run with a premade containing a healer and this allows me to sit and turret for amazing damage. As gunnery I am usually top 3 in damage every game (huttball excluded because I play huttball correctly). For those of you about to flame me for having a "pocket healer" or faceroll strategy, this game isn't meant to be played solo, pvp has been designed to require teamwork and teamwork is what our guild does. We win 95+% of our matches often against others even more geared than ourselves.

Edited January 16, 2012 by DarkGreenGames

[juhalanz]

You are all looking strictly at damage and rotations. There are many more factors in which spec you want to go as in pvp. I have seen both Gunnery and Assault do amazing dps. I chose Gunnery because I prefer the control it gives vs the increased mobility of assault.

 

Also don't forget about set bonuses. I run gunnery with 2 pvp and 2 pve set items on the gunnery tree. 15% increased crit rate for grav round is amazing not to mention a 15 second cooldown on concussion charge. 15 seconds on concussion charge with a second smaller knockback is amazing. What is more, Full auto is an AMAZING crowd controlling ability for the gunnery tree as it slows target movement.

 

I would do the same, if i liked PvE .

 

2 pieces PvE bonus set is just great.

 

Btw now i Play gunnery with 4 PvP pieces and it is not so bad have +15% on HiB.

 

I've tried again AS, changing a bit spec and rotation and i have been impressed by the raw damage output capability of the spec. I've reached my damage record on the score board in Wz, easy.

But there was something wrong.

 

Back to Gunnery, i have to say that i find the Gunnery's Playstyle more suitable to mine.

 

The feats i love more of Gunnery is the cd reduction of Concussion Charge ( a godly 15 cd with Gunnery spec + 2 pvp pieces ) and the Stockstrike knockback component.

 

Btw AS or Gunnery is just a game-style matter....

[SteveMo]

Steve did you find and medic hybrids decent?

 

Yea, it's a good spec to do a lot of Utility Work. Heal, Throw out some finishing Damage, Manage CC, and a decent amount of Mobility. Once people figure out what your doing, expect and stealthy's to try and Gank you.

 

Just gotta know your roll if you go that route.

Edited January 16, 2012 by SteveMo

[RokarooJack]

Hi,

 

 

LvL50 Commando here, 358 expertise, valor rank 30.

 

 

I do about 15 percent more damage as gunnery spec.

 

Assault is more mobile, and anybody who says otherwise is being dishonest, or hasn't played the spec. Stick Grenade is not Plastique. HiB in gunnery is not the same as HiB in AS, and doesn't compare in practice. And, possibly most important, Hammershot becomes useful in AS.

 

Gunnery is amazing on Civil War defense, as well as Voidstar defense.

 

 

Assault kicks Gunnery's *** in Huttball, hands down.

 

 

 

That being said, for two out of the three BG's, I prefer Gunnery.

 

For open world, it just depends on what I'm against. AS is better against the melee sneakies. Gunnery is better against the rest.

 

 

My two cents.

[LordTyrantXerxis]

Ugh. You made me look at the Vanguard trees and their dps tree does everything that I expected Commando to do.

 

Oh well, not going to reroll at 40 now :| Serves me right for picking the class that uses the cooler looking gun.

 

Anyways, AS looks like it only has a little bit more utility for moving. You've got your Incendiary **** and Plasma Cell but you trade off 1 ammo less on charged bolt and high impact bolt.

 

Doesn't seem worth it to me unless you're play huttball in which you actually have to chase the ball carrier which in most cases, they're moving fairly slowly anyways. Now it would be nice to be able to run with them, hitting them with DoTs but I still think AS will have supreme ammo issues in comparison to gunnery. Going to be doing a lot of hammershotting.

 

If they call you out as a target, you're going to die anyways or be stunned/thrown around just as much as you would standing still. Might as well deal as much damage as possible in most situations since the only time I don't drop people is when the marauder or whatever the guardian mirror is gets on me because they have 2 full focus bars worth of CC.

 

 

If AS is anything like Pyro Merc, and I am sure its identical. It needs to have its base periodic damage upped just a tiny bit. I have a Pyro Merc and love the mobility, sort of (unload (full auto) and power shot (charged bolts)) still require you to stand still. There should be things in the respective trees for both classes that reduce the activation time so you can keep your mobility.

 

So IMHO its one or the other. Either reduce the activation time of Unload/Full Auto and Charged Bolts/Power Shot - OR - increase the base periodic damage. I would love to talent down those abilities by .5sec and I am sure I am not alone.

 

Its tough for me to take on a healer due to the amount they can heal through and out DoTs just are not a threat at all. Yes they hurt and they add up on the "damage done" column in a WZ but they don't add to the "kills" column and that's where it counts in pvp

 

At 37 it is pretty difficult for me to take someone out from full health unless I can kite them unobstructed and unmolested. The selling point of AS and Pyro is the DoT and at the moment it is pretty lackluster. I get most of my kills from opponents that are 50% and below because I have them at a health deficit already and at that point most of their stuff is on cooldown as well.

 

Just my .02

[Kenmuir]

You do not have an accurate way of keeping track of this damage without damage logs. This is based on your observations and opinion. This is not fact.

 

It's called a pencil and a piece of paper, I just did it, and it is indeed 35% armor ignore.

 

 

This is argumentative and irrelevant to the subjects at hand. You are still arguing the intangible definitive's of a hypothetical.

 

It doesn't matter if my tone is argumentative or not, but it was certainty not irrelevant. How much damage increase a 20% armor debuff has on a target is not a "hypothetical," it's just math. Which you seemed to imply was difficult to understand.

 

Your recap is you taking my words and putting them into your own context and for your own benefit. This is not what I was saying. Once again, I responded to a similar poster who did not understand the point I was attempting to make. I took this as a mistake on my part and assumed it was my fault for not wording my point as well as I could have. I also took the time to clarify this with a response in my thread. Someting you failed to include.

 

You faulted Gunnery for having a rotation that was easier to fall into, even if that isn't how it's meant to be played.

 

 

I am not making the case that it does provide meaningful damage. My point is, I do not believe that you can prove otherwise with a sufficient degree of accuracy without hard data to back yourself up.

 

Then what were you even trying to say? You questioned how beneficial it would be to have DOTs that kept on ticking after you lost Line of Sight. But to point out how little damage I believe it is, take a look at the xml data for abilities to see how poorly those DoTs scale.

 

I did read this. It was math based on the criteria of an immobile target and where ammo regeneration does not come into play, a scenario that does not exist within the game. It did not take into account sustainability, movement, and the effects of various de-buffs that may be on a raid boss or person in PvP at any given time. The math was incomplete.

 

No, the math was complete for what it was trying to determine. There were two points to be made, both of which I included in the conclusion of my post. But you stopped reading and comprehending when you found the "errors" in my post.

 

Point 1:

Even in a best case scenario, ie infinite ammo and the ability to chain cast, Assault only gets 30% more HIBs over gunnery, which was roughly 1 insta cast over a 1.5s cast every 15seconds. This runs up against the claim that Assault is more mobile than Gunnery, the only adantage Assault has is in a "scenario that does not exist within the game" which was exactly my point.

 

Point 2:

Each cast of Charged Bolts/Grav Round increases the ammount of damage that HIB will do in an encounter by roughly the same amount(~6%). The question from this was if it actually increased your total damage by the same amount, which I haven't look into yet. The question is: does replacing Charged Bolts with HIB, which has 30% more crit damage and 30% armor ignore and lower ammo cost, more often have the same increase in total damage as replacing a Grav Round with HIB, at 30% more damage than normal and lower ammo cost. I don't know yet, but Assault has the problem with GCDs that Gunnery doesn't in this example.

 

 

Convincing myself I was right about what?

 

That you could ignore all evidence because it's not "complete" or "there's still things we don't know."

 

 

How various cross-class buff's and debuffs affect DPS and how they interact with each other for one. How mobility translates into DPS in a real-raid scenario. The specifics of how other core mechanic like armor penetration works; or if the tooltip is a badly phrased way of referring to armor reduction. These among other variables.

 

Cross-class buffs? You mean like 5% more aim, cunning, crit, and bonus damage? That's somehow difficult to calculate? Maybe you mean the 15% damage buff from Sentenals, even then it's not something that is difficult to translate into dps.

 

Cross-class debuffs? The only ones I can think of off the top of my head are Gravity Vortex and Sunder Armor, and some tanking talents that increase damage dealt to a target by like 4%. Nothing difficult.

 

I don't know of any group buffs that increase cast time, or give you more ammo. If there are then there would certainty be some difficult things to consider, but until then it seems like most buffs/debuffs are static % modifiers.

 

 

This is an opinion. Yours to be precise. I disagree. I come from the side that believes we need more information to accurately make assertions and believe we have not reached that point yet. I believe anything stated at this point should be portrayed as opinion and speculation at best. You disagree. That's fine. We are of two differing opinions and will most likely never convince each other otherwise.

 

There's more than enough information out there, and anything else that's needed on the fringes is simple to figure out.

 

 

 

I'm not accusing you of anything. Accusing implies that I think you did something wrong and should be punished. I don't think this at all. The fact is, that regardless of your actual intent may be, you have presented a case that Gunnery is superior. You have not deviated from this line of reasoning and have presented your case from the standing that this is fact. Even if this is not your actual intent, the way you have presented your case conveys this message. So, of course people who disagree with you are going to respond and point out the flaws they see. Refer to my original statement at the top of this post.

 

Of course I believe it to be fact! Why would I argue something I didn't think was true? Unless my intent was to be sarcastic(it wasn't), I am saying that I think Gunnery is the superior spec in this discussion about whether Gunnery or Assault is the better PvP talent spec.

 

Pointing out the "flaws" in my response is not having a debate, that's not how you have a good debate. I have yet to see anyone even try to refute my points, while I feel like I've done a sufficient job at refuting theirs.

 

This seems to be a continuation of the prior comment. My response would be the same as the one above.

 

I conclude by saying this: I don't want you to stop what your doing. You seem like an intelligent enough person. You just don't have enough evidence to convince me of your point of view at this time.

 

Seems to fall under the fallacy of unobtainable standards(not the Latin or correct name). The examples you gave for "incomplete" information were subpar and very general.

 

 

Here's how Armor Pen works:

 

((OpponentsArmor * (1 - Armor Reduction)) * (1 - ArmorPen)) - (1 - (100/Accuracy)) for Tech Attacks

((OpponentsArmor * (1 - Armor Reduction)) * (1 - ArmorPen)) for Weapon Attacks

[Spikespeigl]

@ken

I appreciate you really clearing up this topic with actual facts and math rather than "what ifs" and "opinions" ive been struggling with both specs for awhile in pvp but i do feel like gunnery is the better spec due to its higher burst damage.

 

it reminds me of a certain ranged class in a certain super mega mmo that had strong armor and amazing burst but was nick named "the glass cannon" for the reason that despite its armor and defensive ability's was super squishy to melee

 

I am in no way refuting As amazing mobility but an experienced ranged pvper will tell you line of sight is a good thing to master especially in this game and can be your greatest tool as a squishy ranged class. Untill assault's damage is buffed gunnery is the better "damage dealing" spec.

[sensiblepoast]

Also, if you can show me a screenshot of anyone doing 500k in a warzone, I'd be interested in seeing it. I'm a fully geared 50 Commando and the most I've ever seen was 380k, and that was against a team full of lowbies. The most I've seen from a screenshot was some uber-geared operative that hit 415k. 500k is a myth.

 

This comment caught my attention because some operative did around 550k today. He was happily running around stabbing everyone in the face. The other two I remember were were in the 300-450k, not operatives but I don't remember the class. I was wtfing too hard from the guy just waltzing around melting everyone.

 

I don't have that screenshot. I unfortunately deleted a bunch I had to paste you I'm sure more than a bunch of 500k+ examples, but I managed to find these from a few days ago.

 

http://i.imgur.com/lTHzu.jpg

 

We are quite short changed for the mobility price commandos pay specially considering all the charge/jump/speed/bubble going around that make the 25-30m gap very very small.

[Inixus]

 

enough defensive skills to keep me out of trouble.

 

i always get ripped apart expecialy by sins, maybe i panick to often, i die in secs, im gunnery going for 5/31/5, im lv 43, aim is 876, end is 737, my burst never goes over 2k, idk what im doing wrong

[LittleFuzzy]

AS does look nice, but the question isn't about the damage per se, but about the ability to actually kill stuff. If that's possible with AS, I'll consider the spec.

 

See, this right here is the major problem. It's not accurate. Gunnery is better at flat out killing stuff, but killing stuff is secondary. What matters is completing objectives/keeping the enemy from completing their objectives. Killing stuff is only relevant in that it aids in doing those.

[LittleFuzzy]

5 stack takes 3 1.5 second casts. Or just make due with a 4 stack. I think there is a lot to be said about mobility and the benefit of instant cast, but is it your contention that nobody in PvP uses any abilities with cast times?

 

Sure they do. But speaking as a healer, I rarely see 4 tracer stacks applied on my teammates and then have them continue to take much damage except when we're being overwhelmed. And when I do it's usually because there are two Arsenals working together and both shooting the same guy. I rarely see it BECAUSE we all know that you don't let Gunnery and Arsenal free cast.

[Nehril]

for what its worth i rolled a gunnery commando alt just for fun, and i'm seriously having a great time in pvp with it.

 

usually top damage and kills in any map if im on my game, top 2-3 otherwise ever since about level 25 (34 now). i can take down most anyone 1v1 (meleers are not a problem). sorcs give me problems if they get the drop on me. lack of a ranged interrupt does suck.

 

will definitely give AS tree a shot at some point and see how the other half lives. but gunnery rocks

Edited February 27, 2012 by Nehril

[NDiggy]

for what its worth i rolled a gunnery commando alt just for fun, and i'm seriously having a great time in pvp with it.

 

usually top damage and kills in any map if im on my game, top 2-3 otherwise ever since about level 25 (34 now). i can take down most anyone 1v1 (meleers are not a problem). sorcs give me problems if they get the drop on me. lack of a ranged interrupt does suck.

 

will definitely give AS tree a shot at some point and see how the other half lives. but gunnery rocks

 

Stay Gunnery for leveling. PvP changes a lot at 50 for Commandos. Our damage goes down, our survivability plummets while our opponents goes up.

 

Sure they do. But speaking as a healer, I rarely see 4 tracer stacks applied on my teammates and then have them continue to take much damage except when we're being overwhelmed. And when I do it's usually because there are two Arsenals working together and both shooting the same guy. I rarely see it BECAUSE we all know that you don't let Gunnery and Arsenal free cast.

 

All I know is it doesn't matter what spec I'm in, when good teams see that big honking assault cannon they go get their free kill and move on. We don't have the mobility in either spec or the defenses in either spec that we truly need. Against bad teams in Centurion gear as Gunnery I'll do over 300k damage easily, against good teams as Gunnery or AS I'm lucky to break 100k because they're going to lock me down the instant I'm in range.