The (Un)Official PVP venting thread.

[Seireeni]

And it is much easier to learn crafting skills with a 55 because you can send out the max number of companions while in lowbies you are limited to a smaller number (not to mention you need one of the companions to actually survive).

 

In order to craft with a level 55 character, I have to be playing with that level 55 character. If I'm playing with my lowbie, I can't be playing with my level 55 character.

 

+ Just keep a couple of levels overleveled and nicely geared and you can solo stuff without a companion, probably at least during the whole chapter 1 (haven't tried it on Alderaan yet, though). Especially if you have cc and/or ability to heal.

[knownastherat]

I said earlier, sithBracer, that I am not concerned about gear in SWTOR though I believe its retarded mechanic which does not belong to competitive environment, but since the issue about Augments was open I commented on it.

 

You did not, nor anyone else, provide any rational explanation as why augments are needed for ENTRY level PvP. I suggested to make PvP more accessible, and dropping augments would be one way. Aguments are in the game because someone decided so, not because they are essential part of general MMO or PvP mechanics. So I am not sure why you seem to defend them, it makes no sense to me.

 

BTW I am fully augmented, have 33mil in cash and other 30mil in goods in my cargo, I craft augments, kits included, myself, so I am not the one who finds difficult to get them. Still, I believe, for reasons explained earlier, they are redundant, making the game less entertaining without proper, rational, justification.

 

The people who are here since launch and who advocate current system are people who are, partially, responsible for the state of the game which is, more or less, sad. I quit this game once so I do not doubt I can do it again, and without yours or anyone else advices. If you cannot see what is holding this game back I am afraid it is not my fault.

Edited November 9, 2013 by knownastherat

[Technohic]

I said earlier, sithBracer, that I am not concerned about gear in SWTOR though I believe its retarded mechanic which does not belong to competitive environment, but since the issue about Augments was open I commented on it.

 

You did not, nor anyone else, provide any rational explanation as why augments are needed for ENTRY level PvP. n.

 

t.

 

I stopped there because augments are NOT needed for sub-55 PvP IMO.

[sithBracer]

I said earlier, sithBracer, that I am not concerned about gear in SWTOR though I believe its retarded mechanic which does not belong to competitive environment, but since the issue about Augments was open I commented on it.

 

If you are not concerned, then don't play. Gear is a very important part of this game whether you like it or not.

 

You did not, nor anyone else, provide any rational explanation as why augments are needed for ENTRY level PvP. I suggested to make PvP more accessible, and dropping augments would be one way. Aguments are in the game because someone decided so, not because they are essential part of general MMO or PvP mechanics. So I am not sure why you seem to defend them, it makes no sense to me.

 

This is not about fair or unfair, right or wrong. No one cares what your opinion is on the battlefield, you either can or cannot perform. Augments are ignored by the bolster and are currently the biggest difference between haves and have nots. Those who have (and there are plenty of people who do) will easily dominate people who don't. By 55 you are expected to have some. I don't care what you halfa**ed philosophy on the subject is. If you don't want to be a burden on your team, you need to have a few at least.

 

BTW I am fully augmented, have 33mil in cash and other 30mil in goods in my cargo, I craft augments, kits included, myself, so I am not the one who finds difficult to get them. Still, I believe, for reasons explained earlier, they are redundant, making the game less entertaining without proper, rational, justification.

 

That's fine, you have a right to your opinion (and I actually agree with this one).

 

The people who are here since launch and who advocate current system are people who are, partially, responsible for the state of the game which is, more or less, sad. I quit this game once so I do not doubt I can do it again, and without yours or anyone else advices. If you cannot see what is holding this game back I am afraid it is not my fault.

 

Once again, it doesn't matter what you believe on the battle field as long as you can perform. I personally think that all gear should be bolstered to max level, augments should be negated and PvP gear should just be vanity shells. But it doesn't mean I come into a wz unprepared. We don't have control over what bioware decides to do with its game, but we have control over what we can and cannot do. If it turns out that getting certain PvP gear is too much of a hassle I will just quit. Getting a few blue augments is not. It is easy and stops you from being a burden on your team.

 

As for your philosophical argument about whether they are good or bad for the game in general, I honestly don't know. It is probably good for bioware's revenues since it keeps players playing just a bit longer while since not being part of the main gear psychologically doesn't do as much to repel people as 14 more mod slots (which they actually are). I don't like them, but as they are part of this game I need them in order to be competitive.

[georgemattson]

Anyway, what annoys me the most, is probably in Ancient Hypergate, when someone runs to the pylon and caps it, and then just leaves. Seriously. If you run to the pylon, I assume you will also guard it. If you have no intention to guard it, don't run to there just to get more objective points from capping it. Then I know no one is going to get the pylon and can get it myself, instead of thinking "Oh, great, he's got that job covered!" and then realize how wrong I was a few minutes later when the person I set on my focus target is standing next to me...

 

This is even better when more than one person runs to the pylon to cap it, and none of them stays there to guard it. What's wrong with you people?

 

Yeah... I see this happen so often that I've completely stopped trusting other people to guard, so that's frequently all I ever do now. And yes, I can call out incoming and usually survive for more than 10 seconds, even as a lvl 15 combat sent.

 

That I still haven't disabled my windows key. One key-press got me from hero to zero when I was winning a 1v1 last men standing in a ranked arena till I accidentally pressed it. Too ashamed to say what actually happened.

 

Four words for you:

Full Screen Windowed Mode

 

Helps a LOT. Press the Window key? No problem. Just [at]-[tab] back in. No downtime.

Edited November 9, 2013 by georgemattson

[georgemattson]

Sorry - double post. Wish there was a delete option. Edited November 9, 2013 by georgemattson

[georgemattson]

That is correct. Your 45 greens will be bolstered and you will automatically get 2018 expertise. For example I have a few 148 blues, a 41 green hand armor, a 100 shield, a 100 double lightsaber, a relic that gives me 22 power and 15 end, a 32 matrix cube relic and everything else is all over the place, yet I am currently bolstered to around 2300 wp, 2800 end, 2018 expertise, 1600+ melee damage and I think 600+ bonus damage (could be 700+). In fact when I tried to put a 140 purple in my hand slot, my stats went down. If I put in 14 blue augments that would give me an extra 392 main stat and an extra 252 endurance (those are nothing to laugh about). The reason is because augments are ignored by the bolster, they are extra. So yes, while I wouldn't use them in ranked, augmented greens are better than unaugmented PvP pieces.

 

Just found this thread again after several days, and I've been watching this conversation between Seireeni and the rest of you go back and forth. I currently stay out of 55 PvP because I'm really bad (and am also un-augmented).

 

However... gotta say that it think it's rather disheartening how we're 15 pages into this argument before someone actually says something useful that helps Seireeni (and me, too, as I didn't understand this either).

 

Thank you, sithBracer, for the explanation. I personally never realized the lack of augments were that key to the PvP thing, and had been focusing a heck of a lot of time and attention in trying to boost my main gear, without augmenting anything, as I never understood the point.

[sithBracer]

Thank you, sithBracer, for the explanation. I personally never realized the lack of augments were that key to the PvP thing, and had been focusing a heck of a lot of time and attention in trying to boost my main gear, without augmenting anything, as I never understood the point.

 

Sure no problem. Just an fyi it is all in the sticky "how to be a contender". Bolstered gear can actually sometimes be better than conquerors depending on how you set it up. Some people don't even bother with conqueror gear or even obroan until they got all the pieces because they are afraid of screwing themselves out of good stats with bolster. You can easily be a contender in regs without any PvP gear if you augment. Most importantly of all NEVER mix expertise mods with non expertise mods, that is the worst thing you can possibly do.

 

Which brings me to the next thing to vent, people who [after all this time] still mix expertise mods with non expertise mods in one weapon/armor piece. I mean when you see your partner in all PvE gear have 2018 expertise and you only have 1300, a lightbulb should ring in your head telling you to come to the forums and ask what is wrong.

[DainjaMouz]

And, tbh, if someone cares about a game so much, that he/she hates a person who plays it differently, imo he/she is taking it too seriously. But I guess people disagree with me in this. (Someone literally used to word "hate", which I find more than a little extreme.)

 

As I said in the other thread to someone else .. if you believe PvP in SWTOR is healthy, fun and competitive and if you believe that stuff like earlier debated Augments or evergreen premades are not discouraging players to enter PvP, then we have nothing to talk about as our description of reality differers fundamentally.

 

(In a much calmer voice, he said) I think these two statements are pretty exemplary of the fundamental challenge that BW must address to "fix" PvP. The flaw in BW's logic is that PvP in SWTOR is nothing more than a hobby for everyone who subscribes--something players will give a whirl when they're bored with dailies, or they're tired of grouping into CZ-198 for the 10 millionth time (aside: seriously, I feel like I should rent a condo on CZ-198, but that's a gripe for the PvE venting thread).

 

However, what BW (and many PvE-focused players) in SWTOR fail to recognize is that there is an active community here *because* of the PvP. My own story: I got pulled into FTP PvE on SWTOR as a way for my son and I to blow off steam together. But I became a SUBSCRIBER when I realized how engaging the PvP platform is in SWTOR. I spent an entire weekend levelling my primary to 55 just so I could get my *** kicked in PvP, and then I spent another six weeks learning how to NOT get my *** kicked while I augmented my gear. I am admittedly still a mediocre sniper, but I'm still working at getting better. That's what's cool about SWTOR PvP--it's a lot like picking up an actual sport in that the opportunities that it gives you to improve (skills, tactics, gear, spec) are pretty limitless.

 

Maybe PvP junkies on SWTOR are the fringe. But from what I've seen, the PvP fringe is SO much closer to the "Social Factor" ideal espoused by Lord 137 than anything else I've seen in this game. On Jedi Covenant, I know a good 50+ Imp toons that are dedicated PvPers by sight. You will find us, at various times during the day, hanging out near the WZ terminal on the Imperial Fleet, waiting for the queue to pop. We goof around, bust each others' chops, confuse the n00bs asking questions on Fleet chat, etc. When I'm in a WZ with any of them, I know exactly what to expect, and they (hopefully) know exactly what to expect from me. Whether we're going after Pubs or each other (Imp v. Imp), the camaraderie is better than anything I've ever gotten from being part of yet another group to defeat Revan using the same boss guide that the last 10 million groups did.

 

What irks us (taking the liberty of speaking for the "PvP Fringe") is when players who wouldn't dream of showing up unprepared for group endgame content (and knowing the grief they'd take from other PvP group members if they did) waltz into a WZ undergeared, with no understanding of objectives and tactics (and no apparent interest in learning them), and then get all cranky when they find themselves on the respawn treadmill. Then, they turn all defensive when a group member who's actually invested a lot of time and energy in winning suggests that they might want to learn how to play their class. From the PvP Fringe perspective, we're just asking for the same level of respect that is given to participation in PvE play. I didn't assume it was a fundamental right to be awesome at PvP. On the contrary, I put in the effort to get better (e.g., I average 15-20 WZs per day, and I'm guessing that's on the low side for dedicated PvPers), and I like to play with others (either side) that feel the same. From your perspective, this is seen as taking the game "way too seriously".

 

I don't hate anyone. I also don't begrudge anyone their style of gameplay--BW has, after all, delivered a game that supports diverse gameplay styles. When I group for endgame PvE (which I sometimes do for credits, comms and gear I can sell), I come in my best PvE kit; I make sure I've read the online guides; and, (if it's my first time) I let people know I'm new to the flashpoint and ask questions. If players would demonstrate the same level of respect for PvP, instead of whining about premades and augments when things don't go their way, you'd likely see a dramatic improvement in the quality and amount of PvP. I can count on one hand the PvPers I know that would grief a n00b for asking questions. Given the chance, those same players would shoot your toon ded in a heartbeat if you screw their WZ side doing something stupid because you're bored and didn't have anything better to do.

Edited November 10, 2013 by DainjaMouz

[knownastherat]

That is why there is demand to separate the so-called casual (entry level) PvP from competitive one. They can mix from time to time, but they are separate leagues, difficulty, depth, whatever. PUGs will be PUGs, thats it. To accept this assumption is to accept that there is fringe and there is mainstream and we all belong somewhere. Not controversial. But to apply the same standards to both just does not work.

 

The social factor is not only about socializing in form of voice communication ~ making friends - the social factor includes buyers, opponents, craters, ambience, general chat, ninjas, ******es and fools. Such is diversity. There is always conflict of interests, majority and minority, and if this game is to offer diversity, in order to accommodate if not the masses then at least what could be called sustainable mass, then some fundamental questions needs to be resolved.

 

Players whine about premades is one way to put it. Another way would be for example: Lack of sustainable mass on servers and lack of cross-server interaction, matching premade groups and random players causes imbalances some players call no fun. You know, the same way some players whine about Dongcleave .. who cares? Likely, not the random players, but those from premades who got creamed. How about .. get Dongcleave and stop whining? See what I did?

 

The goal is common. For everyone. EA needs profits, fringe needs challenge, and mass needs fun. There something rotten in the SWTOR, I smell.

Edited November 10, 2013 by knownastherat

[Ravenschild]

Lets see in WZ's what annoys me.The guy who attacks the solo guard I just flashbanged after he used his stun break while were capping. This annoys me and it seems to happen constantly. The thing that confuses me? Why do snipers need a gun 1.5 to 2 times as long as the carbine or rifle in order to shoot 18 feet (5m) farther? The only short sniping rifle is the X-55 (other than the bowcaster) and those tend to be non existent on the GTN.

[DainjaMouz]

BTW I am fully augmented, have 33mil in cash and other 30mil in goods in my cargo, I craft augments, kits included, myself, so I am not the one who finds difficult to get them.

 

Wow, Lord 137, that's impressive! Can you also share with us the length of your toon's big, swinging junk?

 

By the way, the only person in this thread yammering about 'entry-level PvP' (whatever that means) is you. The rest of us have been discussing Lvl55 PvP--hence my multiple comparisons to endgame flashpoint/ops content.

 

EDIT: added the words 'big' and 'swinging' for clarity.

Edited November 10, 2013 by DainjaMouz

[georgemattson]

My own story: I got pulled into FTP PvE on SWTOR as a way for my son and I to blow off steam together. But I became a SUBSCRIBER when I realized how engaging the PvP platform is in SWTOR. I spent an entire weekend levelling my primary to 55 just so I could get my *** kicked in PvP, and then I spent another six weeks learning how to NOT get my *** kicked while I augmented my gear. I am admittedly still a mediocre sniper, but I'm still working at getting better.

 

I'm guessing I'm following a very similar path to what you did, but I wonder how much of the problem with some noobs never getting better isn't quite so much a refusal to learn but a knee-jerk reaction to all the abuse that comes their way. It's not something that happens every time, but I see an awful lot of the "L2P YOU IDIOTS!" type of comments in PvP and I have to imagine a lot of it can be very discouraging. Since you shared yours, here's the short version of my story - I've been playing MMOs for longer than I can remember, but until playing SWTOR I very rarely grouped and almost never engaged in PvP. Sounds really stupid, I know, but I have historically had a very low tolerance for rude players and haven't always had a lot of patience for spending an hour to get a group together, getting 15 minutes into a raid, then having to wait another half hour while the raid's healer/tank/leader/whatever goes and has dinner with mom and dad. In other words, my social experiences in MMOs were pretty negative to begin with and the few times I tried to group up with people, it just reinforced that negative viewpoint.

 

Then SWTOR comes out and I kinda/sorta think I'm going to PvP, but never really get into it. Left for a year and a half, then came back a couple months ago determined to get into PvP. After getting past the first few games of standing around like an idiot, doing my best to lose the match for my groups, and getting a fair chunk of abuse, I started to actually learn and I've had a heck of lot of fun ever since. Of course, I also scour the forums incessantly, read up on my class on a bunch of different websites, and spent at least two weeks tweaking my keybinding, but at least there's been some progress.

 

But I still see rampant abuse in WZ chat. There's still the rage venting and accusations, typically from people who aren't doing overly well themselves, and I have to think that a lot of those other noobs don't have as thick a skin as I do. And of course, human nature is to fight back when someone yells at you. How many people actually have the emotional capacity to suppress their ego and consider that maybe the guy yelling at them to guard a node might be right? How many simply react to the anger with a defensive view of "screw you, I can play however I want," and decide to just do whatever they want?

 

I guess my point is that I don't see the point to getting angry at noobs, regardless of how bad the WZ goes. The ones who are willing to listen and become better are much more likely to listen if you say it nicely. The ones who aren't willing to listen aren't going to listen regardless of how many capital letters or exclamation points are used.

 

Players whine about premades is one way to put it. Another way would be for example: Lack of sustainable mass on servers and lack of cross-server interaction, matching premade groups and random players causes imbalances some players call no fun. You know, the same way some players whine about Dongcleave .. who cares? Likely, not the random players, but those from premades who got creamed. How about .. get Dongcleave and stop whining? See what I did?

 

The goal is common. For everyone. EA needs profits, fringe needs challenge, and mass needs fun. There something rotten in the SWTOR, I smell.

 

Well said

Edited November 10, 2013 by georgemattson

[DainjaMouz]

But I still see rampant abuse in WZ chat. There's still the rage venting and accusations, typically from people who aren't doing overly well themselves, and I have to think that a lot of those other noobs don't have as thick a skin as I do. .... I guess my point is that I don't see the point to getting angry at noobs, regardless of how bad the WZ goes. The ones who are willing to listen and become better are much more likely to listen if you say it nicely.

 

While I agree with you, there are a**hats on pretty much every MMO I've investigated, including Lord 137's exemplar of the Social Factor--WoW. I've seen some pretty ugly a**hattery in SWTOR PvE as well. You can treat the symptoms with better self-policing tools and a user base willing to use them, but the issue is endemic to anonymous, digitally mediated engagement.

 

Again (and I feel like a broken record on this), SWTOR players I know are consistently compliant on meeting the entry level expectations for endgame PvE content (e.g., meet the gear minimum, do your homework on the flashpoint, announce yourself as a newcomer, ask for advice). There are only two logical motivations for this behavior: (1) they respect the players with whom they're grouped, and want to contribute to the group's success; or (2) they are fearful of being soundly mocked and voted out of the group. The question no-one here has provided a satisfactory answer to is: "why shouldn't PvP players be afforded the same courtesy?" All that has been offered instead are transparently obvious attempts to marginalize PvPers as "taking the game way too seriously", or comparing us to the Marilyn Manson fanbase (odd, I know).

 

Respect does, and always has, run both ways.

[knownastherat]

Wow, Lord 137, that's impressive! Can you also share with us the length of your toon's big, swinging junk?

 

By the way, the only person in this thread yammering about 'entry-level PvP' (whatever that means) is you. The rest of us have been discussing Lvl55 PvP--hence my multiple comparisons to endgame flashpoint/ops content.

 

EDIT: added the words 'big' and 'swinging' for clarity.

 

My toon is female and swings nothing.

 

Indeed, in comparison to endgame flashpoints/ops content .. there is gear requirement, or recommendation. There is none in for Ranked nor WZ. The difficulty of PvE content is scaled from SM to NiM. Again, no such distinction for PvP. What happens is that a player clicks a button and is taken either to SM or NiM, like a lottery. Oh you are not ready for NiM? Dont have the skills nor gear nor tactic no healer no tank? Never mind, this is SPARTA!!!

 

Random is random, for everyone.

Edited November 10, 2013 by knownastherat

[Technohic]

I suppose I could vent about that last match I was in, but you see people with 26000 HP on your team, walk up to the node you control and appear to be trying to activate the control to try to cap it, and wander around aimlessly like they are exploring or something, and you just know that there is nothing you can do.

 

Aside from that lost soul in that civil war, I hear 4 allies unbeatable while we have only held the one node I defend. Of course they have not died as they are wandering around the middle area, up and down the cliffs while stealthed, where no one would go. When you see that, it's just time to log out.

 

EDIT to continue venting: I mean seriously. Spent the entire time going "*** are they doing?" Finally left the node when another wandered by because we weren't getting anywhere anyway, but you might have had 2 or 3 other guys that might know what they were doing, and it just isn't going to get you anywhere against a team of 8 who had at least 2 healers and 4 tanks. I don't even know how you get into a collection of so many players that I can only assume were checking out warzones for the first time in a level 55 match. I'm just at a loss for words. (or apparently not, but I am baffled.)

Edited November 10, 2013 by Technohic

[DainjaMouz]

My toon is female and swings nothing.

 

Must...resist...urge.

Oh you are not ready for NiM? Dont have the skills nor gear nor tactic no healer no tank? Never mind, this is SPARTA!!!

 

I see. We've gone from "marginalization via comparison to alternative rocker" to "marginalization via comparison to militaristic Greek city-state". While I thought the Marilyn Manson dig was interesting, this one is definitely more apt. Dedicated PvPers in SWTOR are definitely in the minority compared to "hobbyist" PvPers, whom I assume you view as the Persians. I'm sure your reimagination of the Battle of Thermopylae features hordes of your happy Social Factor worshipers trampling the last of us dedicated PvPers into dust while they chat about the fabulous Cartel Market gear they just snagged (on discount, no less!).

 

One thing is for certain, the Spartans were afforded some respect.

[georgemattson]

Again (and I feel like a broken record on this), SWTOR players I know are consistently compliant on meeting the entry level expectations for endgame PvE content (e.g., meet the gear minimum, do your homework on the flashpoint, announce yourself as a newcomer, ask for advice). There are only two logical motivations for this behavior: (1) they respect the players with whom they're grouped, and want to contribute to the group's success; or (2) they are fearful of being soundly mocked and voted out of the group. The question no-one here has provided a satisfactory answer to is: "why shouldn't PvP players be afforded the same courtesy?" All that has been offered instead are transparently obvious attempts to marginalize PvPers as "taking the game way too seriously", or comparing us to the Marilyn Manson fanbase (odd, I know).

 

Respect does, and always has, run both ways.

 

I'd be willing to bet you and I both know exactly why it doesn't happen, but insofar as why it shouldn't happen, I can't answer that because I completely agree that it should happen. It's simply due to time constraints. I've said this on another thread, but if every PvP event lasted as long a a typical high end raid, if players were able to investigate other players when they arrived and could pause the event and vote to kick, there would be no casual PvP players in PvP matches; everyone would be properly geared and would know what to do (or willing to learn, at least).

 

Throw a bunch of random people into a match and given them a minute and a half to prep, followed by a 5-15 minute window to play, and there is no way we can avoid the random PUGs who sometimes don't care to do much beyond just try to farm medals. Either PUG yourself and risk being the butt provider in the butt kicking contest or get into a good pre-made and provide the foot. Once in a while you actually have a good game.

 

But I still think it doesn't make any sense to blame the PUGs for that. It isn't our fault for that.

Edited November 10, 2013 by georgemattson

[Seireeni]

(In a much calmer voice, he said) I think these two statements are pretty exemplary of the fundamental challenge that BW must address to "fix" PvP. The flaw in BW's logic is that PvP in SWTOR is nothing more than a hobby for everyone who subscribes--something players will give a whirl when they're bored with dailies, or they're tired of grouping into CZ-198 for the 10 millionth time (aside: seriously, I feel like I should rent a condo on CZ-198, but that's a gripe for the PvE venting thread).

 

However, what BW (and many PvE-focused players) in SWTOR fail to recognize is that there is an active community here *because* of the PvP. My own story: I got pulled into FTP PvE on SWTOR as a way for my son and I to blow off steam together. But I became a SUBSCRIBER when I realized how engaging the PvP platform is in SWTOR. I spent an entire weekend levelling my primary to 55 just so I could get my *** kicked in PvP, and then I spent another six weeks learning how to NOT get my *** kicked while I augmented my gear. I am admittedly still a mediocre sniper, but I'm still working at getting better. That's what's cool about SWTOR PvP--it's a lot like picking up an actual sport in that the opportunities that it gives you to improve (skills, tactics, gear, spec) are pretty limitless.

 

Maybe PvP junkies on SWTOR are the fringe. But from what I've seen, the PvP fringe is SO much closer to the "Social Factor" ideal espoused by Lord 137 than anything else I've seen in this game. On Jedi Covenant, I know a good 50+ Imp toons that are dedicated PvPers by sight. You will find us, at various times during the day, hanging out near the WZ terminal on the Imperial Fleet, waiting for the queue to pop. We goof around, bust each others' chops, confuse the n00bs asking questions on Fleet chat, etc. When I'm in a WZ with any of them, I know exactly what to expect, and they (hopefully) know exactly what to expect from me. Whether we're going after Pubs or each other (Imp v. Imp), the camaraderie is better than anything I've ever gotten from being part of yet another group to defeat Revan using the same boss guide that the last 10 million groups did.

 

What irks us (taking the liberty of speaking for the "PvP Fringe") is when players who wouldn't dream of showing up unprepared for group endgame content (and knowing the grief they'd take from other PvP group members if they did) waltz into a WZ undergeared, with no understanding of objectives and tactics (and no apparent interest in learning them), and then get all cranky when they find themselves on the respawn treadmill. Then, they turn all defensive when a group member who's actually invested a lot of time and energy in winning suggests that they might want to learn how to play their class. From the PvP Fringe perspective, we're just asking for the same level of respect that is given to participation in PvE play. I didn't assume it was a fundamental right to be awesome at PvP. On the contrary, I put in the effort to get better (e.g., I average 15-20 WZs per day, and I'm guessing that's on the low side for dedicated PvPers), and I like to play with others (either side) that feel the same. From your perspective, this is seen as taking the game "way too seriously".

 

I don't hate anyone. I also don't begrudge anyone their style of gameplay--BW has, after all, delivered a game that supports diverse gameplay styles. When I group for endgame PvE (which I sometimes do for credits, comms and gear I can sell), I come in my best PvE kit; I make sure I've read the online guides; and, (if it's my first time) I let people know I'm new to the flashpoint and ask questions. If players would demonstrate the same level of respect for PvP, instead of whining about premades and augments when things don't go their way, you'd likely see a dramatic improvement in the quality and amount of PvP. I can count on one hand the PvPers I know that would grief a n00b for asking questions. Given the chance, those same players would shoot your toon ded in a heartbeat if you screw their WZ side doing something stupid because you're bored and didn't have anything better to do.

 

Thank you for your much calmer response - makes me easier to think this rationally. I've given a lot of thought about this conversation, and I think the disagreements in this matter come down to two things.

 

First, there's this "you're taking this too seriously"-matter. It seems clear that you (and many other people who have participated in this conversation) are very, very competitive. It's important to you to have new, great challenges with equal opponents. You want to win, always, or at least have a tight match, and if someone screws up something, you may be very angry. Because you enjoy it when both sides are very good at what they do, not when both sides screw up something. Am I right?

 

It's hard to me to imagine being like you, and I guess it's hard for you to imagine being like me. Let me lighten my perspective here a little.

I go to the warzone to have fun. Not to compete, not to win, to have fun. Actually, taking the warzones as seriously as you take them would make me feel so stressed that I couldn't sleep the next night at all. And I can have fun, no matter what gear or skills I, my teammates or the enemy has. If someone screws up, I may inform them what they did wrong, but then I just think "there will be other warzones" and move on. If I'm in a absolutely terrible team that gets three-capped, I either take it as a challenge (and try to figure out a tactic to turn this into a win, or at least a little less embarassing loss) or just accept the fact that we aren't going to win this warzone and enjoy playing even if our attemps to cap would be in vain. I don't even blame my gear if I suck, I just think that the player that just killed me just was better. I don't blame my team, I don't blame my teams gear, I don't blame my team's skill level. I'm not perfect, I don't assume they are either. I blame the enemy. They were better.

 

Now, the other problem is the term "undergeared". It's fine in pve, there is more or less clear limit what is undergeared in content x. But in pvp, this isn't as simple as you think. In pve, there is a certain level of gear that is recommended to the content. People under that level are undergeared and (this is important) people over that level are overgeared. In order not to be carried, you have to be properly geared. The overgeared people have no affect on if you have to be carried or not (even though they can carry undergeared people).

In pvp, the thing is different, because you CANNOT be overgeared. Ever. So, "properly geared" is different in every match. Properly geared in pvp could be defined as "same gear or almost same gear as the best geared player has". It's a little similiar to when in work or classroom, you may have a colleague or a classmate who's a true overachiever. Then your boss or teacher starts wondering why you aren't as good as him, even though your results would be just fine if that overachiever wasn't standing next to you.

 

So, in your point of view, it's like those people would be trying to go to a hard mode operation undergeared and expect to be carried. From their point of view, you just joined story mode czerka corporate labs overgeared and then got mad because not everyone was as overgeared as you are. Because in pve, you queue/join a certain fp/op and you can decide before, if you are geared enough or not.

In pvp, you only have 1 button, queue. Unlike in pve, you can't choose to queue to warzones where there are no players who have better gear than x. It's like everything in pve - from story mode czerka fps to hard mode ops - would be in the same queue, and you could only choose to queue to all of them or not to queue at all. And it's completely random if it's sm crezka fp with people in full Kell Dragon or hm Dread Palace with people in their leveling blues.

 

So, they are probably ruining your fun. Or you are ruining their fun. Depends on who you ask.

 

But, tbh, I have no idea how to solve this confliction between these two groups. Whenever they meet, someone is going to get hurt - either that competitive player is frustrated and feels bad, or that casual player is going to get bashed for not taking pvp seriously enough. It would probably be best if both of these groups had their own bracket, but, unfortunately, they are forced to queue with each other. And everyone is unhappy.

[DainjaMouz]

^^^ Thank you for a serious response, instead of some blather about the popularity of WoW, Marilyn Manson, ancient Greece and the Social Factor.

 

I have said previously that PvP could be improved, specifically with cross-server queues and an incentive model that does a better job incentivizing success and discouraging "just showing up". I also think making the WZ start conditional on a Ready Check (with a longer time limit) would improve coordination and limit the number of WZs starting 3v4 or 7v8. I wouldn't mind if the WZs were available in "training mode" though I doubt anyone would use them--have you ever seen anyone <actually fighting> in the Outlaw's Den?

 

While I agree with you on points, I think the underlying issue is what I've explained previously. The significant majority of swtor players see PvE as their "career" and PvP as a "hobby" to alleviate career boredom. They don't want to be bothered with technique or gear or coordination. They just want to smash stuff and have fun, and BW doesn't do anything to disavow them of this view. When a hobbyist gets blown up by a PvP "careerist", they choose to gripe about premades and cost of augments instead of acknowledging that they've wandered into a type of gameplay where success requires a little more effort than running a flashpoint with a browser window open to the boss guide.

Edited November 10, 2013 by DainjaMouz

[DainjaMouz]

Thank you for your much calmer response - makes me easier to think this rationally. I've given a lot of thought about this conversation, and I think the disagreements in this matter come down to two things.

...

It's hard to me to imagine being like you, and I guess it's hard for you to imagine being like me. Let me lighten my perspective here a little.

 

Thanks for your willingness to consider another perspective. Pretty good job with the profile as well. There are absolutely some PvPers who refuse to be satisfied with anything other than a win (+their name at the top of the medal board). I am not one of those players. I learned a long time ago that I'm not going to win all the time, and by choosing a sniper as a primary I'm unlikely to top the medalboard (aside: if you have tanks and healers that understand coordinated play, your DPS team members SHOULD be topping the damage board...that's the point of DPS). I simply take issue with losing stupid (using your earlier example, like someone solo capping a pylon then running off to smash things).

 

I also have a hard time imagining why anyone wouldn't want to be good at PvP. For me, it's so much more interesting and nuanced than PvE--every WZ is unique. In the start area, you have no idea of the outcome. Something I've noticed in unranked recently is that tactics are actually (finally) evolving. For instance, in NC you can no longer assume an extended opening at the Southern node. Plenty of teams are feinting South while splitting their initial focus East and West, looking to suprise and hold instead of grinding. That's the kind of interesting development you just don't see in PvE. Whether or not that's because pugs stopped showing up I can't say; but, it's the sort of thing that keeps me coming back for more.

 

Anyway, thanks again!

Edited November 10, 2013 by DainjaMouz

[georgemattson]

^^ Well said, both of you. I've been on the fence in trying to figure out which of you two I agreed with more, but I think you both raise excellent points. I've historically been the casual gamer who has done PvP as a hobby (always badly, until recently, and still not great) but I've been wanting to get into PvP a lot more going forward.

 

There definitely do seem to be some barriers to entry, though, into the hardcore PvP arena, and not all of them come from the game.

[georgemattson]

Something I've noticed in unranked recently is that tactics are actually (finally) evolving. For instance, in NC you can no longer assume an extended opening at the Southern node. Plenty of teams are feinting South while splitting their initial focus East and West, looking to suprise and hold instead of grinding. That's the kind of interesting development you just don't see in PvE. Whether or not that's because pugs stopped showing up I can't say; but, it's the sort of thing that keeps me coming back for more.

 

Anyway, thanks again!

 

Funny you should mention that. I've been noticing that as well, and assumed that was a mistake on the part of overeager noobs who just wanted to smash things. My intuitive response to the splitting up like that would be the thought that we'd be guaranteed to lose south and east would be retaken fairly quickly, leading to a loss.

 

I take it, though, that this actually is a good tactic? (I'm seriously asking here, by the way; not trying to be sarcastic, as I honestly don't know).

[DainjaMouz]

Changing the subject...players in Huttball who insist on throwing the ball to me (a sniper). For those of you who don't know, snipers play defense in huttball. We are not geared to move with the ball.

[Seireeni]

I also have a hard time imagining why anyone wouldn't want to be good at PvP. For me, it's so much more interesting and nuanced than PvE--every WZ is unique. In the start area, you have no idea of the outcome. Something I've noticed in unranked recently is that tactics are actually (finally) evolving. For instance, in NC you can no longer assume an extended opening at the Southern node. Plenty of teams are feinting South while splitting their initial focus East and West, looking to suprise and hold instead of grinding. That's the kind of interesting development you just don't see in PvE. Whether or not that's because pugs stopped showing up I can't say; but, it's the sort of thing that keeps me coming back for more.

 

I have to point out, that your assumption - that everyone who isn't competitive in pvp likes pve - is wrong, at least as long as we are talking about me. I also think, that if we compare things like operations and flashpoints to warzones, warzones are much more interesting. I'd rather be good at pvp than good at endgame pve (or lowbie flashpoints).

But.

 

There's one thing in pve that I put before everything else in the game and the main reason I even play this, and that's the stories. Class stories and companion storylines, mainly, but many other storylines can be interesting, too. And endgame seems to have very little stories to offer, at least without gear grinding (looking at you, operations!). So, I spend most of my time leveling, and a lot of that time in lowbies.

Saying that I don't want to be good in pvp isn't exactly true. I do want to develop as a player, but I think there's more than just learning your rotation or gearing your character in pvp. I believe that even if the match was totally uneven, you can still learn from it. And if you don't, there will be another match, and I don't think it's something worth getting upset about.

 

 

Anyway, at least in Red Eclipse, the arenas seemed to wake up the good players in endgame pvp - as in a week before arenas, there were warzones where top damage was something like 400k, but after it, you started to see those 600k - 1 million high damage numbers pretty often.