Darth Vader vs Darth Nox

[Aurbere]

Just read it, turns out I remembered wrongly. His treatment didn't even require immersion in a bacta tank (though it was an option), they basically just gave him a few shots and told him to take it easy a couple of days.

 

As for what they said was wrong with him, 'sudden and massive calcification of the skeletal structure' that for some reason caused an 'abrupt drop in blood minerals' that was giving him 'micro-seizures'. I have no idea if that is how getting hit by lightning actually works or not, though.

 

Ah, good, at least someone had the book. I haven't read that thing in ages.

 

At least I got the medical issue right.

[Kaedusz]

Ah, good, at least someone had the book. I haven't read that thing in ages.

 

At least I got the medical issue right.

 

hmm things like that are hard to forget

you are getting old

Edited January 6, 2015 by Kaedusz

[tunewalker]

Just read it, turns out I remembered wrongly. His treatment didn't even require immersion in a bacta tank (though it was an option), they basically just gave him a few shots and told him to take it easy a couple of days.

 

As for what they said was wrong with him, 'sudden and massive calcification of the skeletal structure' that for some reason caused an 'abrupt drop in blood minerals' that was giving him 'micro-seizures'. I have no idea if that is how getting hit by lightning actually works or not, though.

 

Didnt they say if they DIDNT treat it though he could have died, since it could have been degenerative or something. they just "found out early enough" kind of thing. I mean it probably would have been fatal knowing our tech vs theirs. Wasnt that why Padme originally was like " Im not going to die in Child birth, the facilities around here are to good for that" or some such thing which made Anakin's worry illogical. And why even Obi-wan was surprised, like its just something that doesnt happen in star wars.

[dcaleb]

Didnt they say if they DIDNT treat it though he could have died, since it could have been degenerative or something. they just "found out early enough" kind of thing. I mean it probably would have been fatal knowing our tech vs theirs. Wasnt that why Padme originally was like " Im not going to die in Child birth, the facilities around here are to good for that" or some such thing which made Anakin's worry illogical. And why even Obi-wan was surprised, like its just something that doesnt happen in star wars.

 

Nah, Luke got all freaked out and asked how serious it was (he was worried they might have to replace his bones) and the droid just told him that the pain he was feeling from the seizures would become chronic..

[Leaveshill]

Of course he has the theoretical potential to beat Vader.

But the powers he gained from the Force walk ritual are overrated. In the end, all the ghosts give him is the inability to die. Other than that, the powers Nox uses are his own. The ghosts are a shortcut to his full potential - Nox's personal hyperbolic time chamber, if you allow this DBZ reference. Which is why Nox could let them go and be fine, power wise.

Also, the ghosts are not that impressive, if you look at them. Horak-mul? Alright, he's something, but not the greatest ever. Darth Andruu? Who even is that guy? Lord Ergast? Well, he created the Force walk, but couldn't manage more than a single ghost. And don't even get me started on that last one.

 

Also, everyone bases Vader's potential loss on the premise that he permits his foe to hit him with Force Lightning. But I doubt he's stupid enough to let that happen in a way that could endanger his life supports.

Suffice to say Vader would most likely beat Nox in a Lightsaber battle.

 

What is this nonesence? Darth A has a huge grave, he's powerful. If not, nobody would've buried him. His children did after all murder him, so he has to be powerful enough to attract others.

Ergast has a huge monument in Kaas city, he's powerful. And the Mystic that created "dreamwalking" (Voss) is also powerful. And Horak Mul is a strong man as well. And the alien, well he's nothing special. Still, this is foolish.

Nox would destroy Vader with a storm of force. You know, he could even stop Thanaton from striking at him with the force, then throwing him around.

And what is this nonesense, the ghosts let you drain their power. Lorewise, you cannot let them leave. It's 100% wrong, 100%. The ghosts are a source of incredible power, and Vader would be crushed.

All Vader ever did was beat Dooku (Dooku was toying with him) and murder a lot of Jedi Padawans.

Vader is not capable of murdering Darth Nox, Nox would toy with him. Throw him across the room, then ruin him. This discussion isn't really important.

 

Again; Vader would never defeat Nox. Nox would use the power of his spirits to throw Vader around, ruining his armor and body.

If Vader had NOT being mutilated, then he would've been much more powerful in his prime and who knows what would've happened then?

Still, no chance. He's no master of the Dark side, he's purely a martial expert. While Nox know countless rituals and secrets of the Force, all Vader can do is to kill.

 

Face it, Sidious is the real deal. Not Vader.

 

Vader is just his "apprentice", if you like. Like the Sith Warrior for Baras before Chapter 1 is over., but without the rise from Apprentice to master. He's the henchman, doing all the dirty work. And that's that. He's nothing compared to Malgus, Nox, the Wrath, Marr, Angral. Vader would likely be one of the lower Darths in the SWTOR empire at best. Stop overrarting him.

Just because he's the "main guy" doesn't make him "the best".

[Rhyltran]

What is this nonesence? Darth A has a huge grave, he's powerful. If not, nobody would've buried him. His children did after all murder him, so he has to be powerful enough to attract others.

Ergast has a huge monument in Kaas city, he's powerful. And the Mystic that created "dreamwalking" (Voss) is also powerful. And Horak Mul is a strong man as well. And the alien, well he's nothing special. Still, this is foolish.

Nox would destroy Vader with a storm of force. You know, he could even stop Thanaton from striking at him with the force, then throwing him around.

And what is this nonesense, the ghosts let you drain their power. Lorewise, you cannot let them leave. It's 100% wrong, 100%. The ghosts are a source of incredible power, and Vader would be crushed.

All Vader ever did was beat Dooku (Dooku was toying with him) and murder a lot of Jedi Padawans.

Vader is not capable of murdering Darth Nox, Nox would toy with him. Throw him across the room, then ruin him. This discussion isn't really important.

 

Again; Vader would never defeat Nox. Nox would use the power of his spirits to throw Vader around, ruining his armor and body.

If Vader had NOT being mutilated, then he would've been much more powerful in his prime and who knows what would've happened then?

Still, no chance. He's no master of the Dark side, he's purely a martial expert. While Nox know countless rituals and secrets of the Force, all Vader can do is to kill.

 

Face it, Sidious is the real deal. Not Vader.

 

Vader is just his "apprentice", if you like. Like the Sith Warrior for Baras before Chapter 1 is over., but without the rise from Apprentice to master. He's the henchman, doing all the dirty work. And that's that. He's nothing compared to Malgus, Nox, the Wrath, Marr, Angral. Vader would likely be one of the lower Darths in the SWTOR empire at best. Stop overrarting him.

Just because he's the "main guy" doesn't make him "the best".

 

Sorry. There's a lot of things wrong with this. "Powerful for their time." doesn't mean "Powerful now." there's a lot of Sith that were powerful for their time but don't mean anything. Example, if the Emperor didn't exist the current strongest Sith is likely Darth Marr. Marr has NOTHING on Exar Kun. Powerful as he might be. Vader is canonically 80% of Sidious. Capable of killing people from systems away with force choke via a view screen. He was able to demolish an entire citadel with the force alone. Take blasts, from Galen Marek, who helped bring down a star destroyer. Tanked force lightning capable of disintegrating acolytes. I have a huge list of Vader's fleets but he was never weak.

 

Also Dooku wasn't toying with him. All text. From the novelization and more points to Dooku going all out on him. Dooku in the novelization realized near the end fighting him was HOPELESS. Also most of those Sith Spirits? Are weaklings compared to some of the top Sith. Care to prove otherwise? Forget their monuments. Start pulling from their feats and prove they were more accomplished than Vader.

[Leaveshill]

Sorry. There's a lot of things wrong with this. "Powerful for their time." doesn't mean "Powerful now." there's a lot of Sith that were powerful for their time but don't mean anything. Example, if the Emperor didn't exist the current strongest Sith is likely Darth Marr. Marr has NOTHING on Exar Kun. Powerful as he might be. Vader is canonically 80% of Sidious. Capable of killing people from systems away with force choke via a view screen. He was able to demolish an entire citadel with the force alone. Take blasts, from Galen Marek, who helped bring down a star destroyer. Tanked force lightning capable of disintegrating acolytes. I have a huge list of Vader's fleets but he was never weak.

 

Also Dooku wasn't toying with him. All text. From the novelization and more points to Dooku going all out on him. Dooku in the novelization realized near the end fighting him was HOPELESS. Also most of those Sith Spirits? Are weaklings compared to some of the top Sith. Care to prove otherwise? Forget their monuments. Start pulling from their feats and prove they were more accomplished than Vader.

 

Marr did "drive back armies on his own" in his early twenties... We are yet to see his true power.

 

And Ergast did create Force-walking. This is no small feature, he did create a way to devour ghosts. This makes the user incredibly powerful. He can pacify ghosts, and we have no records of anyone else doing so. He's one of the "great" dark side users because of this. He's a pioneer, creating an entire new style of Darkness.

 

We don't know anything about the others, as history doesn't "add" too much information on all of them. But we know that Horak-mul is powerful.He was Kressh(Sadow's rival)'s left hand, but we do not get any information as Sadow has likely "destroyed" his rival's story.

 

Darth Andru is likely something in the same "gate", probably a bit weaker. he's powerful enough to get his little grave but he's nothing "special" compared to the greatest. But we can not doubt that he's still a powerful figure. You don't need to

fill your soul with Darth Vaders/Malguses/Marrs in order to be the greatest. You need someone strong in the force, so you can drain their power.

 

Zavros is probably the weakest of this four. He's the "jedi master" fallen ot the dark side, but we don't know much about him. Only that his blood is strong with the force (as Ashara is "the best figher in her "padawan class", and that it's likely decent servants):

 

The mystic (fifth spirit) is the creator of "dream walking", unless I'm mistaken. The feat that he alone created this ritual by himself shows that he's powerful. If I'm mistaken, then he's just a little "extra" to add.

 

"I sense great fear in you, Skywalker. YOu have hate. You have anger. But you don't use them" - Trying to get Skywalker "dark", as it was his and Palpatine's plan. And I'm not saying that Skywalker isn't much stronger than Dooku, just that Dooku really did want to "toy" to make him angry. At least in the beginning.

 

FInal note;

One of the ghosts alone aren't "more powerful than Vader", and that's never the intention.

The intention with these ghosts are to draw power, different from anything else. Create storms of force that no Sith has ever made, to make powerful Sith lords crawl on the floor in fear. To stop the charging attacker (Thanton gets stopped like this) in his charge, then throw him back. Toying with powerful Sith without even lifting the Light saber. Had Vader been "all-powerful" then he'd never lose to Luke, Luke almost had no training whatsoever. He's weakened by his body's loss, and some unlogical "destruction of temples" with the force doesn't change that. We can take if as a fact that Vader was weakened after ROTS.

 

Nox wouldn't beat Vader "Because every ghost in him is stronger", none of the ghosts have the potential Skywalker had. He doesn't need them to be, he needs them to have a source to drain power from, more power than most Sith can imagine. Also, Nox is a superior lightsaber-warrior as well. Probably not as Vader's "Prime level", but he doesn't need to worry about lightsabers when he can stop you from touching him.

 

Keep in mind that having ghosts like Palpatine or other "Sith'ari" isn't needed. You need powerful sith to draw your power from, they don't need to be "galactic superheroes" to forfill this. They must be far above average, and very far. Not "Top 10 in 10 000 years". Having the Emperor's rival's left hand is a great asset to your personal power. Of course the Emperor would be even better, but you don't need him. The left hand is an asset by itself, you can draw a lot of power from five "great" ones, without having "the best".

 

*And Baras also "force-chokes" someone through a holo. It's probably "as long as I see your entire form, then I can choke you" type of deal. Not really anything special. Not like Vader can go around murdering people from out of nowhere...

 

Yet Vader is strong, don't get me wrong. But he would not win, you cannot crush Nox with the force. He must use his lightsaber skills, and it won't come to that as we all know for a fact that Nox is stronger in the Force due to his forcewalking and the five spirits.

[Rhyltran]

Marr did "drive back armies on his own" in his early twenties... We are yet to see his true power.

 

And Ergast did create Force-walking. This is no small feature, he did create a way to devour ghosts. This makes the user incredibly powerful. He can pacify ghosts, and we have no records of anyone else doing so. He's one of the "great" dark side users because of this. He's a pioneer, creating an entire new style of Darkness.

 

We don't know anything about the others, as history doesn't "add" too much information on all of them. But we know that Horak-mul is powerful.He was Kressh(Sadow's rival)'s left hand, but we do not get any information as Sadow has likely "destroyed" his rival's story.

 

Darth Andru is likely something in the same "gate", probably a bit weaker. he's powerful enough to get his little grave but he's nothing "special" compared to the greatest. But we can not doubt that he's still a powerful figure. You don't need to

fill your soul with Darth Vaders/Malguses/Marrs in order to be the greatest. You need someone strong in the force, so you can drain their power.

 

Zavros is probably the weakest of this four. He's the "jedi master" fallen ot the dark side, but we don't know much about him. Only that his blood is strong with the force (as Ashara is "the best figher in her "padawan class", and that it's likely decent servants):

 

The mystic (fifth spirit) is the creator of "dream walking", unless I'm mistaken. The feat that he alone created this ritual by himself shows that he's powerful. If I'm mistaken, then he's just a little "extra" to add.

 

"I sense great fear in you, Skywalker. YOu have hate. You have anger. But you don't use them" - Trying to get Skywalker "dark", as it was his and Palpatine's plan. And I'm not saying that Skywalker isn't much stronger than Dooku, just that Dooku really did want to "toy" to make him angry. At least in the beginning.

 

FInal note;

One of the ghosts alone aren't "more powerful than Vader", and that's never the intention.

The intention with these ghosts are to draw power, different from anything else. Create storms of force that no Sith has ever made, to make powerful Sith lords crawl on the floor in fear. To stop the charging attacker (Thanton gets stopped like this) in his charge, then throw him back. Toying with powerful Sith without even lifting the Light saber. Had Vader been "all-powerful" then he'd never lose to Luke, Luke almost had no training whatsoever. He's weakened by his body's loss, and some unlogical "destruction of temples" with the force doesn't change that. We can take if as a fact that Vader was weakened after ROTS.

 

Nox wouldn't beat Vader "Because every ghost in him is stronger", none of the ghosts have the potential Skywalker had. He doesn't need them to be, he needs them to have a source to drain power from, more power than most Sith can imagine. Also, Nox is a superior lightsaber-warrior as well. Probably not as Vader's "Prime level", but he doesn't need to worry about lightsabers when he can stop you from touching him.

 

Keep in mind that having ghosts like Palpatine or other "Sith'ari" isn't needed. You need powerful sith to draw your power from, they don't need to be "galactic superheroes" to forfill this. They must be far above average, and very far. Not "Top 10 in 10 000 years". Having the Emperor's rival's left hand is a great asset to your personal power. Of course the Emperor would be even better, but you don't need him. The left hand is an asset by itself, you can draw a lot of power from five "great" ones, without having "the best".

 

*And Baras also "force-chokes" someone through a holo. It's probably "as long as I see your entire form, then I can choke you" type of deal. Not really anything special. Not like Vader can go around murdering people from out of nowhere...

 

Yet Vader is strong, don't get me wrong. But he would not win, you cannot crush Nox with the force. He must use his lightsaber skills, and it won't come to that as we all know for a fact that Nox is stronger in the Force due to his forcewalking and the five spirits.

 

Founders of things in star wars aren't always the best at it. He founded it. Can you prove he was the best at it or significant at it? Remember, he could only bind one at a time. It was considered foolish for a Sith to bind more than one. So clearly this proves Nox is better than him but him being able to bind one still says nothing about his power. Only that he came up with a rare technique. Nor does it say how strong the spirits were that he was able to bind.

 

Being someone's right hand doesn't make you all that powerful either. Remember, Darth Bandon from KOTOR is Malak's right hand. That doesn't say much. Again, inventing a rare technique does not make one powerful. It just means that you invented a rare technique.

 

As for Vader's defeat to luke? Several factors. The movies are old. The novelization makes it clear that Luke was a full fledged Jedi on par with other full fledged Jedi in the prequel movies. They didn't have the choreography that we have now. Second, Luke admitted in the Jedi Academy novels that he was NOT a match for Vader. Not in the slightest. Sith get their power from their anger/hatred. Vader did not and could not hate Luke and therefore not bring the might of the dark side against him. He was conflicted and his inner battle was more powerful than his battle with Luke.

 

Luke admitted if he could bring forth his hatred and fight him at full power? Luke wouldn't have stood a chance. He outright admits Vader would have destroyed him. Vader, in force power, is 80% as strong as Sidious. Capable of crushing starfighters, destroying entire citadels with the force, killing people across great distances, and more. You're seriously underestimating Vader here. Also when Nox ragdolls Thanaton? It's after Thanaton was beaten down and defeating someone without a lightsaber doesn't mean as much when..

 

Thanaton himself doesn't really use one either. Nox is not some unstoppable force and honestly the council wasn't absolutely shocked by his power. We've seen Sith shocked at raw power but they weren't. Nox is worthy to sit on the council don't get me wrong but his power wasn't so strong the council's never seen it before either. By claiming Vader cannot take on Nox you're claiming Vader can't take on most of the council. This is laughable because even in Vader's suit he is stated in out of character sources to be one of the greatest Jedi killer of ALL time.

 

In the comics he was attacked by 8 Jedi in an ambush. 2 masters. A bunch of knights and a padawan. He killed all of them. He fought Galen Marek to a standstill not once but twice. Vader may not be the strongest Sith ever but he does make it to people's top 10 lists. I can list 6-8 sith stronger than him but out of all the Sith we've seen in the entirety of star wars? That's impressive.

 

Nox has never shown enough power to destroy a starship or level a citadel. Nox is not the strongest Sith and there's plenty of Sith above him. Same with the sith warrior. He too has people above him. Also just because he focuses on force use doesn't suddenly make him untouchable. We've seen Sith who are primarily sorcerers lose to warriors. Nothing Nox has shown was incapable of being blocked, dodged, or otherwise avoided by a clever sith and while Vader's powers aren't as flashy? His raw displays of power have been nothing short of impressive.

Edited January 8, 2015 by Rhyltran

[tunewalker]

For the Luke Defeating Vader, it was Luke's opinion that Vader wasnt trying, but the RotJ Novelization makes it fairly clear that he WAS trying, but that's not a mark against Vader. Luke wasnt holding himself back like he does at pretty much every other time. If you want an idea of how powerful Luke was in RotJ look into Courtship of Princess Leia. Where he finds out that he has no need to hold himself back, the Force isnt that Fragile.

 

 

All-in-all Luke was ALWAYS powerful. Shadow's of the Empire makes it clear that even in Empire Strikes Back, Luke was one of the most powerful people Vader ever fought. So Luke in ESB, was probably on par with some one like Dooku or Maul. By RotJ, Vader is "stronger then he has ever been" while yes his POTENTIAL was curbed by the loss of the limbs, the refinement and Knowledge Vader gained from being Anakin had him STRONGER then Anakin. By this point Vader was likely stronger then Windu, if not near on par with RotS Yoda, since remember RotS Palps was also weaker then RotJ Palps. When Yoda sends Luke to kill Vader AND His Emperor, he is under the full belief Luke can, if and ONLY IF, he doesnt underestimate them and doesnt hold back. So its very possible Luke and Vader are close to RotS Sidious/ on par with Yoda.

 

Now some will say he doesnt really have the feats to back this up, but again I kind of beg to differ. Several of Vader's most powerful feats that we know of come from Pre-ANH when he was SEVERELY weakened and those still include flinging Star Fighters around like they are nothing. By the time of RotJ EVERYTHING is easy to him he was easily almost twice that strong by that point.

 

But hey that's just my interpretation, but it has seemed to be a fun kick everyone is on lately with the whole "hate movie era force users" especially "hate all Force users (save palps) beyond PT" and the ever prevalent "OR is greater then all, always"

[Leaveshill]

Founders of things in star wars aren't always the best at it. He founded it. Can you prove he was the best at it or significant at it? Remember, he could only bind one at a time. It was considered foolish for a Sith to bind more than one. So clearly this proves Nox is better than him but him being able to bind one still says nothing about his power. Only that he came up with a rare technique. Nor does it say how strong the spirits were that he was able to bind.

 

Being someone's right hand doesn't make you all that powerful either. Remember, Darth Bandon from KOTOR is Malak's right hand. That doesn't say much. Again, inventing a rare technique does not make one powerful. It just means that you invented a rare technique.

 

As for Vader's defeat to luke? Several factors. The movies are old. The novelization makes it clear that Luke was a full fledged Jedi on par with other full fledged Jedi in the prequel movies. They didn't have the choreography that we have now. Second, Luke admitted in the Jedi Academy novels that he was NOT a match for Vader. Not in the slightest. Sith get their power from their anger/hatred. Vader did not and could not hate Luke and therefore not bring the might of the dark side against him. He was conflicted and his inner battle was more powerful than his battle with Luke.

 

Luke admitted if he could bring forth his hatred and fight him at full power? Luke wouldn't have stood a chance. He outright admits Vader would have destroyed him. Vader, in force power, is 80% as strong as Sidious. Capable of crushing starfighters, destroying entire citadels with the force, killing people across great distances, and more. You're seriously underestimating Vader here. Also when Nox ragdolls Thanaton? It's after Thanaton was beaten down and defeating someone without a lightsaber doesn't mean as much when..

 

Thanaton himself doesn't really use one either. Nox is not some unstoppable force and honestly the council wasn't absolutely shocked by his power. We've seen Sith shocked at raw power but they weren't. Nox is worthy to sit on the council don't get me wrong but his power wasn't so strong the council's never seen it before either. By claiming Vader cannot take on Nox you're claiming Vader can't take on most of the council. This is laughable because even in Vader's suit he is stated in out of character sources to be one of the greatest Jedi killer of ALL time.

 

In the comics he was attacked by 8 Jedi in an ambush. 2 masters. A bunch of knights and a padawan. He killed all of them. He fought Galen Marek to a standstill not once but twice. Vader may not be the strongest Sith ever but he does make it to people's top 10 lists. I can list 6-8 sith stronger than him but out of all the Sith we've seen in the entirety of star wars? That's impressive.

 

Nox has never shown enough power to destroy a starship or level a citadel. Nox is not the strongest Sith and there's plenty of Sith above him. Same with the sith warrior. He too has people above him. Also just because he focuses on force use doesn't suddenly make him untouchable. We've seen Sith who are primarily sorcerers lose to warriors. Nothing Nox has shown was incapable of being blocked, dodged, or otherwise avoided by a clever sith and while Vader's powers aren't as flashy? His raw displays of power have been nothing short of impressive.

 

The Jedi Vader kills are weaker, they're not prepared for war. That's their weakness, they're "peacekeepers", not warriors. And he doesn't need to hate his target, he can use the hate he has for, let's say, himself and fuel his power like that. Hating your enemy is not what you need, you must use your hatred for all things.

 

And it's only a few persons proven to use force-walk. And it's proven that binding more than one ghost will not just ravage your body, but also your mind. Force-sickness, and no man can escape it. The only escape is through rituals, as well a way to escape your body (Mother-machine is one try, another would be to clone yourself and "Do a Sidious", but that technology isn't available here. ANd I never said that Nox is untouchable, just that I don't see him loosing to Vader.

 

Keep in mind that the fledling-Jedi Luke isn't anything, just some talented Jedi. He should be killed easily, or at least defeated. He's not trained well, and you don't need to hate him. A Sith can defeat enemies he doesn't hate, he can even defeat enemies he love if he has to. The Dark side doesn't need you to hate your enemy to succeed, it needs you to draw power from all emotions. Hatred included, and it doesn't have to be "hating the one you're fighting now", but it has to be "the hatred you have" inside of you, fuelling your power. And THanaton uses his lightsaber, he's a martial arts expert as well as a sorcerer. He tries to charge Nox, and he gets stopped with ease. And this spirits do give so much power, it's hard to see really.

 

Vader barely has any personality after his wife dies, he's a result of madness. The random cartoons where he ruin temples with his thoughts etc are ridiclous, had he been that strong then he'd never have trouble with Luke. "Starkiller" is also just some random game-hero without any logic at all. This little boy defeats the Emperor as well as Vader with minimum training, "because he was born to do so". Accepting that is like accepting that one Sith can destroy 100 other siths in half an hour due to game-mecanics in SWTOR, it's not how it is. The Force unleashed is and will always be a ridicilous game. With maniac jedi raiding on force-made droids... I mean, c'mon.

Also, Obi-Wan defeats him when he's in his prime. Vader has really been over-glorified to pleasure the "old school" fans. He is the henchman, and he is really weakened after his body gets destroyed.

Vader is not in the top 10. He's far from it. His weakness is exposed time and time again, he's unstable and as stated, losing to his son is a sign of pure weakness.

Nihilus would consume him. Sion would destroy him. Malgus, Marr, Angral as well. The Emperor(SWtor), Sidious, probably a lot of other SIth Lords as well.

 

And yes, Nox and the Wrath aren't "the strongest ever". But I'm pretty certain that they would beat Skywalker. After all, he lost to the "third most powerful" Jedi in the movies (Both Windu and Yoda is above him), and this generation of Jedi is filth. Weak minded, not prepared for war.

Nox does defeat powerful Jedi as an Apprentice, (Master Organa, stops the invasion of House Thul as well by defeating lots of Jedi). This with at maximum 2 years of training at the SIth Academy, and no training from his master as she's content with sending him around for her little Ritual.

As does the Wrath, defeating Master Karr. What did Anakin ever do until he defeated Dooku? Little, at best.

 

This generation of Jedi is weak, and while Vader is a very powerful figure, his feats are overrated. That it's a "valuable trait" that he could "fight his own apprentice" twice is pure and simple garbage as well. His little apprentice should not prove a problem at all. After all, this apprentice has much less experience and to top it of, Vader know all his tricks.

And the fact that this little kid can "fight the emperor" just shows how garbage that game is. He's no Master Windu, how can he hope to level the Emperor?

 

And why should the Council act shocked? Then they would say "Hey, you're our superior"

Both Nox and the Wrath get a "I've never seen such power" moment (Paladius and Rathari), but people never bow unless forced. The council wasn't shocked because they are brilliant at deception. You can never read a dark Council member's weakness, looking weak at the DC is a pure and simple death-wish.

 

And yes, Thanaton wasn't "beaten" down until he was dragging himself over the floor. He was shocked by the outcome, shocked that someone toyed with him. That's all.

 

And sure, maybe Vader is a bit stronger than I imagine. But things like "crushing starfighters" etc are made purely for the fans, if he could do that, then they'd never lose the war vs a few rebels. As is the "ruined a temple", it doesn't fit the lore of Star Wars. Then Vader would throw his son around like a plaything as well, which he cannot. He lost to an "average" (Luke without any training) because he's not as strong as people think. Pure and simple.

He's not intelligent enough to defeat Nox. Nox would know his enemy better than the other way around, and he would use his own strenghts; speed, wits and the force, while trying to avoid Vader's (Raw strenght), and he would likey win. I cannot really imagine Nox getting beat by an undertrained Luke Skywalker... I'm pretty sure Skywalker would die in the first five seconds. He'd probably not even raise his lightsaber, just make a small storm of lightning over his target. Or defeat him with lightsaber if he feels like "having fun"

[Rhyltran]

The Jedi Vader kills are weaker, they're not prepared for war. That's their weakness, they're "peacekeepers", not warriors. And he doesn't need to hate his target, he can use the hate he has for, let's say, himself and fuel his power like that. Hating your enemy is not what you need, you must use your hatred for all things.

 

And it's only a few persons proven to use force-walk. And it's proven that binding more than one ghost will not just ravage your body, but also your mind. Force-sickness, and no man can escape it. The only escape is through rituals, as well a way to escape your body (Mother-machine is one try, another would be to clone yourself and "Do a Sidious", but that technology isn't available here. ANd I never said that Nox is untouchable, just that I don't see him loosing to Vader.

 

Keep in mind that the fledling-Jedi Luke isn't anything, just some talented Jedi. He should be killed easily, or at least defeated. He's not trained well, and you don't need to hate him. A Sith can defeat enemies he doesn't hate, he can even defeat enemies he love if he has to. The Dark side doesn't need you to hate your enemy to succeed, it needs you to draw power from all emotions. Hatred included, and it doesn't have to be "hating the one you're fighting now", but it has to be "the hatred you have" inside of you, fuelling your power. And THanaton uses his lightsaber, he's a martial arts expert as well as a sorcerer. He tries to charge Nox, and he gets stopped with ease. And this spirits do give so much power, it's hard to see really.

 

Vader barely has any personality after his wife dies, he's a result of madness. The random cartoons where he ruin temples with his thoughts etc are ridiclous, had he been that strong then he'd never have trouble with Luke. "Starkiller" is also just some random game-hero without any logic at all. This little boy defeats the Emperor as well as Vader with minimum training, "because he was born to do so". Accepting that is like accepting that one Sith can destroy 100 other siths in half an hour due to game-mecanics in SWTOR, it's not how it is. The Force unleashed is and will always be a ridicilous game. With maniac jedi raiding on force-made droids... I mean, c'mon.

Also, Obi-Wan defeats him when he's in his prime. Vader has really been over-glorified to pleasure the "old school" fans. He is the henchman, and he is really weakened after his body gets destroyed.

Vader is not in the top 10. He's far from it. His weakness is exposed time and time again, he's unstable and as stated, losing to his son is a sign of pure weakness.

Nihilus would consume him. Sion would destroy him. Malgus, Marr, Angral as well. The Emperor(SWtor), Sidious, probably a lot of other SIth Lords as well.

 

And yes, Nox and the Wrath aren't "the strongest ever". But I'm pretty certain that they would beat Skywalker. After all, he lost to the "third most powerful" Jedi in the movies (Both Windu and Yoda is above him), and this generation of Jedi is filth. Weak minded, not prepared for war.

Nox does defeat powerful Jedi as an Apprentice, (Master Organa, stops the invasion of House Thul as well by defeating lots of Jedi). This with at maximum 2 years of training at the SIth Academy, and no training from his master as she's content with sending him around for her little Ritual.

As does the Wrath, defeating Master Karr. What did Anakin ever do until he defeated Dooku? Little, at best.

 

This generation of Jedi is weak, and while Vader is a very powerful figure, his feats are overrated. That it's a "valuable trait" that he could "fight his own apprentice" twice is pure and simple garbage as well. His little apprentice should not prove a problem at all. After all, this apprentice has much less experience and to top it of, Vader know all his tricks.

And the fact that this little kid can "fight the emperor" just shows how garbage that game is. He's no Master Windu, how can he hope to level the Emperor?

 

And why should the Council act shocked? Then they would say "Hey, you're our superior"

Both Nox and the Wrath get a "I've never seen such power" moment (Paladius and Rathari), but people never bow unless forced. The council wasn't shocked because they are brilliant at deception. You can never read a dark Council member's weakness, looking weak at the DC is a pure and simple death-wish.

 

And yes, Thanaton wasn't "beaten" down until he was dragging himself over the floor. He was shocked by the outcome, shocked that someone toyed with him. That's all.

 

And sure, maybe Vader is a bit stronger than I imagine. But things like "crushing starfighters" etc are made purely for the fans, if he could do that, then they'd never lose the war vs a few rebels. As is the "ruined a temple", it doesn't fit the lore of Star Wars. Then Vader would throw his son around like a plaything as well, which he cannot. He lost to an "average" (Luke without any training) because he's not as strong as people think. Pure and simple.

He's not intelligent enough to defeat Nox. Nox would know his enemy better than the other way around, and he would use his own strenghts; speed, wits and the force, while trying to avoid Vader's (Raw strenght), and he would likey win. I cannot really imagine Nox getting beat by an undertrained Luke Skywalker... I'm pretty sure Skywalker would die in the first five seconds. He'd probably not even raise his lightsaber, just make a small storm of lightning over his target. Or defeat him with lightsaber if he feels like "having fun"

 

Bolded part? Wrong. The prequel era is considered the golden age of Jedi. This is G-Canon and cannot be disputed. Some of the Jedi Vader kills are some of the BEST in history. He kills Dooku who is one of the greatest duelists in the entire history of the Jedi order and matched by Windu. Vader grows more powerful since then. His apprentice defeated some of the greatest Jedi masters only to lose his first duel with Vader. Rituals aren't the only way to do anything. Sidious, as well as others, have stated that rituals allow you to tap into power you yourself normally cannot. This doesn't mean no one else is capable of doing it. Rituals are NOT needed for everything and things can be done without them.

 

As for Luke being a fledgling weak jedi? Read the novelization. Read some of the novels other posters posted here. You're wrong here.

 

Starkiller = Canon and he never defeats the Emperor. He loses to the Emperor. Sorry. You're essentially stating now "I'm going to ignore parts of the Legends canon I don't like and keep what I do." doesn't work that way. Starkiller is Canon. Vader destroying an entire citadel? Canon. This is one of his greatest displays of power.

 

Italicized: Vader would lose to Nihilus. He would kill Angral, Malgus, Thanaton, and Marr. Yes he would lose to the Emperor and Sidious.

 

You claim Yoda and Windu are weak? Yoda is second ONLY to Grandmaster Luke Skywalker. Windu is probably the greatest duelist the Jedi order has EVER seen.

 

"Crushing starfighters" = Canon. Learn the levels of Canon.

 

You're blatantly ignoring Canon in your fanboy attempt to beef up characters from SWTOR. Sorry, in an unbiased view their feats don't match up to Vader. The most powerful character who can truly rival most in SWTOR are Revan and the Emperor. If you compared Revan to Vader? You'd have a far greater argument on your hands. The Sith Emperor? Would destroy Vader. But nox? There's not enough evidence that Nox can beat Vader. His greatest feat is destroying Thanaton who's feats don't come close to Vader.

Edited January 8, 2015 by Rhyltran

[dcaleb]

Founders of things in star wars aren't always the best at it. He founded it. Can you prove he was the best at it or significant at it? Remember, he could only bind one at a time. It was considered foolish for a Sith to bind more than one. So clearly this proves Nox is better than him but him being able to bind one still says nothing about his power. Only that he came up with a rare technique. Nor does it say how strong the spirits were that he was able to bind.

 

Practically speaking, Kallig had to have their body 'rebuilt' by ancient rakata magical science to be able to hold more then 1 ghost without it tearing them apart. Maybe they could have found another way if they had dedicated their life to doing it instead of scrambling around because they already bound more then 1 and the clock was ticking, but as it stands it wasn't shown to be within their innate abilities to do so and might have been totally impossible for anyone not so augmented.

 

Edit: Also, The Force Unleashed is contradicted by pretty much every other thing which mentions that point in time within the Star Wars universe. And now that Star Wars: Rebels is apparently going to show the founding of the rebellion it is pretty much toast.

Edited January 8, 2015 by dcaleb

[Leaveshill]

Bolded part? Wrong. The prequel era is considered the golden age of Jedi. This is G-Canon and cannot be disputed. Some of the Jedi Vader kills are some of the BEST in history. He kills Dooku who is one of the greatest duelists in the entire history of the Jedi order and matched by Windu. Vader grows more powerful since then. His apprentice defeated some of the greatest Jedi masters only to lose his first duel with Vader. Rituals aren't the only way to do anything. Sidious, as well as others, have stated that rituals allow you to tap into power you yourself normally cannot. This doesn't mean no one else is capable of doing it. Rituals are NOT needed for everything and things can be done without them.

 

As for Luke being a fledgling weak jedi? Read the novelization. Read some of the novels other posters posted here. You're wrong here.

 

Starkiller = Canon and he never defeats the Emperor. He loses to the Emperor. Sorry. You're essentially stating now "I'm going to ignore parts of the Legends canon I don't like and keep what I do." doesn't work that way. Starkiller is Canon. Vader destroying an entire citadel? Canon. This is one of his greatest displays of power.

 

Italicized: Vader would lose to Nihilus. He would kill Angral, Malgus, Thanaton, and Marr. Yes he would lose to the Emperor and Sidious.

 

You claim Yoda and Windu are weak? Yoda is second ONLY to Grandmaster Luke Skywalker. Windu is probably the greatest duelist the Jedi order has EVER seen.

 

"Crushing starfighters" = Canon. Learn the levels of Canon.

 

You're blatantly ignoring Canon in your fanboy attempt to beef up characters from SWTOR. Sorry, in an unbiased view their feats don't match up to Vader. The most powerful character who can truly rival most in SWTOR are Revan and the Emperor. If you compared Revan to Vader? You'd have a far greater argument on your hands. The Sith Emperor? Would destroy Vader. But nox? There's not enough evidence that Nox can beat Vader. His greatest feat is destroying Thanaton who's feats don't come close to Vader.

 

I did not mean that Windu and Yoda was weak. Just that he couldn't possibly hope to fight them, and how can he be amongst the greatest sith then?

Also, it's not a fact that they're "the best" jedi, they are naive, have no training in war, no knowledge about it what so ever. They're probably "better at spiritual guidance" and have more "knowledge"; but they're much less capable of fighing than ever. That's because they haven't been in any wars, and people gain strenght by warring.

 

And as stated here, Unleashed is now not relevant as they're even making a new series from the same period. And it pretty much contradicts everything ever in SW that this little "starkiller" from nowhere can challenge everyone. Even his master, who is considered to be "the one". It should be disregarded.

 

And maybe it is cannon. Even though I would assume that everything between the third and fourth movie is removed as they're making series about that period(as also stated here). Makes sense that everything you have ever read from this period is now nothing but scrap. But I might be mistaken, I haven't really spoken with Lucas or anyone else about it.

 

And Rituals are a huge side, you need to find new powers, to evolve.

Has Vader ever done anything? Ever tried something new, maybe tried to evolve? He's busy killing and following, without thinking much for himself. He's not a scholar, he cannot possibly hope to master the Force as a whole without studying it for ages as well as the martial arts.

Stating that "But he's chosen so he can just wreck temples" doesn't really seem fitting. Has he evolved something that could make him do so? I doubt it. He just decided "Oh I'm gonna ruin this ******** because I'm mad" and it happened. It's a "Legend", in reality he ordered his fleet to bomb it I bet. Then he told everyone how we ruined it with his bare cyborg hands!

 

Hoho. But ye, I still don't see how Vader, with his limited knowledge of the Force would defeat a cunning master of the Dark side with five spirits to draw strenght from. But it would've been interesting to see.

[Wolfninjajedi]

So Luke in ESB, was probably on par with some one like Dooku or Maul.

 

I wouldn't go THAT far with ESB Luke, he was plenty powerful, but not on that level. By ROTJ it's more closer than ESB.

Edited January 8, 2015 by Wolfninjajedi

[Wolfninjajedi]

 

Italicized: Vader would lose to Nihilus.

.

 

Not sure on that, Nihilus' Drain is pretty useless and Vader could speedblitz him before he even warrants Vader as a threat.

[Rhyltran]

I did not mean that Windu and Yoda was weak. Just that he couldn't possibly hope to fight them, and how can he be amongst the greatest sith then?

Also, it's not a fact that they're "the best" jedi, they are naive, have no training in war, no knowledge about it what so ever. They're probably "better at spiritual guidance" and have more "knowledge"; but they're much less capable of fighing than ever. That's because they haven't been in any wars, and people gain strenght by warring.

 

And as stated here, Unleashed is now not relevant as they're even making a new series from the same period. And it pretty much contradicts everything ever in SW that this little "starkiller" from nowhere can challenge everyone. Even his master, who is considered to be "the one". It should be disregarded.

 

And maybe it is cannon. Even though I would assume that everything between the third and fourth movie is removed as they're making series about that period(as also stated here). Makes sense that everything you have ever read from this period is now nothing but scrap. But I might be mistaken, I haven't really spoken with Lucas or anyone else about it.

 

And Rituals are a huge side, you need to find new powers, to evolve.

Has Vader ever done anything? Ever tried something new, maybe tried to evolve? He's busy killing and following, without thinking much for himself. He's not a scholar, he cannot possibly hope to master the Force as a whole without studying it for ages as well as the martial arts.

Stating that "But he's chosen so he can just wreck temples" doesn't really seem fitting. Has he evolved something that could make him do so? I doubt it. He just decided "Oh I'm gonna ruin this ******** because I'm mad" and it happened. It's a "Legend", in reality he ordered his fleet to bomb it I bet. Then he told everyone how we ruined it with his bare cyborg hands!

 

Hoho. But ye, I still don't see how Vader, with his limited knowledge of the Force would defeat a cunning master of the Dark side with five spirits to draw strenght from. But it would've been interesting to see.

 

Your knowledge on jedi is wrong. Again, the prequel era was the golden age of Jedi. Regardless how you feel about it that is G-Canon. Unleashed is still relevant. It's contradicted in clone wars but so what? Disney changed how Canon works. Legends has nothing to do with disney continuity and vice versa. According to Disney TOR is NOT Canon. To Disney there is no Nox. If you go by legends continuity then the EU applies and the force unleashed isn't the only place I pulled from in terms of Vader's feats. Truth is Vader has bigger force accomplishments than Nox. He doesn't need sorcery. He was the chosen one and while a lot of his potential is lost he has quite a bit of raw power.

[tunewalker]

I wouldn't go THAT far with ESB Luke, he was plenty powerful, but not on that level. By ROTJ it's more closer than ESB.

 

I dont know, like I said that mostly comes from the way Vader talks in Shadow's of the Empire about Luke in ESB. He may not be on par with them, but he isnt far off. He is (according to Vader) one of the most powerful people he has ever faced, and when those include Dooku, Obi-wan, Maul, and Starkiller... that's saying something.

[Leaveshill]

Your knowledge on jedi is wrong. Again, the prequel era was the golden age of Jedi. Regardless how you feel about it that is G-Canon. Unleashed is still relevant. It's contradicted in clone wars but so what? Disney changed how Canon works. Legends has nothing to do with disney continuity and vice versa. According to Disney TOR is NOT Canon. To Disney there is no Nox. If you go by legends continuity then the EU applies and the force unleashed isn't the only place I pulled from in terms of Vader's feats. Truth is Vader has bigger force accomplishments than Nox. He doesn't need sorcery. He was the chosen one and while a lot of his potential is lost he has quite a bit of raw power.

 

Of course, he has more accomplishments. His trackrecord is close to perfection, but he also had a lot of years to prove his worth. Nox had 1 year or so at the academy, then around a year as an apprentice, and less than one year until he rises to a Dark Council member. He is around the same age Anakin reaches when he becomes Darth Vader, and he still might have a lifetime of Sith-sorcery in front of him.

I would of course never try to claim that Nox has as many victories as Vader, but that wouldn't be fair as Nox is a young man in his early twenties, and Vader has been given a chance to hunt enemies for 22 more years.

 

I just believe Nox to be more powerful due to his rituals, the sources he can draw power from and the secrets of the Dark side that he know.

Also, it being the golden generation doesn't make them the most powerful warriors, does it? It might be a signal to them being the best "peacekeepers", "scholars", etc. Because there is no way they can be better warriors then the Jedi that actually fought wars, wars that lasted for entire lifespans. War breeds hard men, peace breeds weakness. That's why the republic is defenseless in the start of the first movie, they have no army. How can the Jedi be soldiers, how can they be brilliant army leaders when they don't even have an army to control?

But they're probably the best politcians, peacekeepers etc. And maybe their knowledge of the Force is greater, but their weakness in war is still clear to everyone. Not having a rival makes most evolution difficult, there is no reason to lift yourself and the Jedi are likely no different. Especially since they're not "created for war", but for peace. Not having an enemy makes them weak.

 

And being the Chosen One didn't help Anakin much when he got beat half to death by his former friend, Obi-wan. Neither would it help vs a smarter enemy. Vader is after all not a cunning man, he's a brute. His potential and talent is not on the table for discussion, but his capability to defeat powerful Sith lords of old, enemies who unlike Vader has fought their entire life, not for "honor" but for life itself, being forced to learn rituals or forms of war that might destroy them, but without a choice. Anakin just ran around, complaining about not being a master yet, then ran around murdering as the Bad guy's henchman.

 

I'm not doubting his force-potential, nor his skills in combat. I'm just doubting that he can "float" on his potential when faced by opposition that, while having a high potential, pushes themselves to the edge of what a body can endure for power. Enemies that unlike him has been forced to fight for a place in the galaxy, that unlike him is used to face "more powerful" enemies. The only one more powerful than Skywalker was Dooku in the Clone wars, and after that he never met an enemy he didn't have the edge on. While Nox first had to murder Lord Ogathu (a day or two after leaving his training), Anakin was treated like the special baby. He has never known hardship,all his problems are because of himself. His victories are great, but he has never went into advanded parts of the Dark side. All he ever did was to improve a bit on his murdering.

 

Keep in mind that there's a number of ways to easily beat Vader. You can lure him into a trap and set up a ritual to snap the Force out of him (Lord Paladius's trick vs Nox, yet Nox kills him in a lightsaber duel) , without having any connection with the Force). And unlike Paladius, Nox is too intelligent to toy and he would safely use the force to win.

 

Vader could never prepare an intelligent trap like this. He's the henchman, and he would need his Master to make the arrangments. Vader might at best be able to murder Nox in a fair fight(while I still have my finger's on Nox), but maybe I'm mistaken on that part. Maybe Vader's raw strenght is too much, and maybe he would win. But I have a feeling that Nox will never go unprepared. He has learned from his mistakes (Entering Andru's tomb, confronting Thanaton too early, etc), and he would not walk blindly into a trap. He would likely prepare a ritual like the one Paladius did, and he would cowardly destroy Vader in a matter far from honorable.

 

If I'm mistaken and Vader is the brain of the Empire, then I'd be suprised. But I cannot claim to have read every single book/comic starring Vader.

But we can agree on that Vader has the most feats and the most victories, obviously. That's not something I doubt, and I should of course have mentioned that he has more impressive victories.

[dcaleb]

I don't think it is fair to say that Anakin 'floated' on his power and was protected like some super special baby. The Clone Wars and EU material makes it clear he was very active on the front lines during the war against the Confederacy. It is hardly his fault that his enemy was almost entirely lacking in force users to throw at him and the other jedi.

[Rhyltran]

Of course, he has more accomplishments. His trackrecord is close to perfection, but he also had a lot of years to prove his worth. Nox had 1 year or so at the academy, then around a year as an apprentice, and less than one year until he rises to a Dark Council member. He is around the same age Anakin reaches when he becomes Darth Vader, and he still might have a lifetime of Sith-sorcery in front of him.

I would of course never try to claim that Nox has as many victories as Vader, but that wouldn't be fair as Nox is a young man in his early twenties, and Vader has been given a chance to hunt enemies for 22 more years.

 

I just believe Nox to be more powerful due to his rituals, the sources he can draw power from and the secrets of the Dark side that he know.

Also, it being the golden generation doesn't make them the most powerful warriors, does it? It might be a signal to them being the best "peacekeepers", "scholars", etc. Because there is no way they can be better warriors then the Jedi that actually fought wars, wars that lasted for entire lifespans. War breeds hard men, peace breeds weakness. That's why the republic is defenseless in the start of the first movie, they have no army. How can the Jedi be soldiers, how can they be brilliant army leaders when they don't even have an army to control?

But they're probably the best politcians, peacekeepers etc. And maybe their knowledge of the Force is greater, but their weakness in war is still clear to everyone. Not having a rival makes most evolution difficult, there is no reason to lift yourself and the Jedi are likely no different. Especially since they're not "created for war", but for peace. Not having an enemy makes them weak.

 

And being the Chosen One didn't help Anakin much when he got beat half to death by his former friend, Obi-wan. Neither would it help vs a smarter enemy. Vader is after all not a cunning man, he's a brute. His potential and talent is not on the table for discussion, but his capability to defeat powerful Sith lords of old, enemies who unlike Vader has fought their entire life, not for "honor" but for life itself, being forced to learn rituals or forms of war that might destroy them, but without a choice. Anakin just ran around, complaining about not being a master yet, then ran around murdering as the Bad guy's henchman.

 

I'm not doubting his force-potential, nor his skills in combat. I'm just doubting that he can "float" on his potential when faced by opposition that, while having a high potential, pushes themselves to the edge of what a body can endure for power. Enemies that unlike him has been forced to fight for a place in the galaxy, that unlike him is used to face "more powerful" enemies. The only one more powerful than Skywalker was Dooku in the Clone wars, and after that he never met an enemy he didn't have the edge on. While Nox first had to murder Lord Ogathu (a day or two after leaving his training), Anakin was treated like the special baby. He has never known hardship,all his problems are because of himself. His victories are great, but he has never went into advanded parts of the Dark side. All he ever did was to improve a bit on his murdering.

 

Keep in mind that there's a number of ways to easily beat Vader. You can lure him into a trap and set up a ritual to snap the Force out of him (Lord Paladius's trick vs Nox, yet Nox kills him in a lightsaber duel) , without having any connection with the Force). And unlike Paladius, Nox is too intelligent to toy and he would safely use the force to win.

 

Vader could never prepare an intelligent trap like this. He's the henchman, and he would need his Master to make the arrangments. Vader might at best be able to murder Nox in a fair fight(while I still have my finger's on Nox), but maybe I'm mistaken on that part. Maybe Vader's raw strenght is too much, and maybe he would win. But I have a feeling that Nox will never go unprepared. He has learned from his mistakes (Entering Andru's tomb, confronting Thanaton too early, etc), and he would not walk blindly into a trap. He would likely prepare a ritual like the one Paladius did, and he would cowardly destroy Vader in a matter far from honorable.

 

If I'm mistaken and Vader is the brain of the Empire, then I'd be suprised. But I cannot claim to have read every single book/comic starring Vader.

But we can agree on that Vader has the most feats and the most victories, obviously. That's not something I doubt, and I should of course have mentioned that he has more impressive victories.

 

You don't know much about Vader. Remember when he set a trap for Luke Skywalker and his friends? Even turning Han Solo's own friend against him? Vader isn't some idiot brute like many believe. As Anakin he learned his short comings. He learned patience. A genius? The brains of the empire? Nah, I wouldn't try arguing going that far but he also did train apprentice's in secret (other than Galen Marek.) he has been plotting and devising ways of trying to be rid of Sidious despite Sidious superior strength. He can think, he can plot, and he can plan.

 

Thing is Vader's raw power feats surpass what we know of Nox. He's also a skilled tactician and expert fighter. A master of lightsaber combat and extremely powerful in the force. Rituals don't matter. They help boost one's power but when someone's power far exceeds another it doesn't matter. Let's look at it this way. Sith can use similar techniques to a Jedi correct? Why is it some of the top Jedi can defeat the top Sith without knowing the sith rituals themselves? Because it's not required when it comes to defeating the sith. You don't need mastery of sith rituals to defeat a Sith.

[ScottenPL]

Nox stomps. He/She was the most powerful force-user in The Old Republic era right after Vitiate thanks to Force-Walking.

I don't see it going any other way. Vader is simply out of league in this one. No amount of lore-digging will change that. Give me Sidious vs Nox, that would actually be interesting.

Edited August 9, 2015 by ScottenPL

[Kaedusz]

The suit hampers too much of the resources Vader would need, based on his force talents, to beat Nox. Edited August 10, 2015 by Kaedusz

[PadsterPwns]

Nox stomps. He/She was the most powerful force-user in The Old Republic era right after Vitiate thanks to Force-Walking.

I don't see it going any other way. Vader is simply out of league in this one. No amount of lore-digging will change that. Give me Sidious vs Nox, that would actually be interesting.

 

First off, Sidious would stomp Nox so badly its not even funny. Secondly what proof do you have of Nox being second only to Vitiate? The Inquisitor may have beat Thanaton but its fairly clear, that while powerful, most of the other DC members considered Thanaton to be weaker than them. Also Nox needed the ghosts to even survive fighting Thanaton, as shown at the end of chapter 2 where Thanaton would have killed them if it weren't for the ghosts. Besides even if Nox is more powerful than Thanaton without the ghosts, I'm fairly certain that in Annihilation it says that Nox (in power levels) is fairly near the bottom of the council.

 

Hell, just compare the speed feats of Vader and Nox, its fairly possible that Vader could blitz. Now add in Vader's feats of endurance, lightsaber combat and force application and its fairly clear that Vader is at least a league above Nox, if not leagues ahead.

 

OT: Has anyone else noticed that the movie characters are being really underrated recently? I'm also starting to think that Nox is being overrated recently, if this thread and the Nox and Wrath vs Dooku and Vader thread is anything to go by.

[cs_zoltan]

OT: Has anyone else noticed that the movie characters are being really underrated recently? I'm also starting to think that Nox is being overrated recently, if this thread and the Nox and Wrath vs Dooku and Vader thread is anything to go by.

 

This forum was always infested with OR fanboys. They think any player character > The Ones. They usually don't know anything of the EU. If you read the right threads though you can see we have a few sane posters over here

 

On topic: Even Kenobi would whoop Nox's ***.

[PadsterPwns]

This forum was always infested with OR fanboys. They think any player character > The Ones. They usually don't know anything of the EU. If you read the right threads though you can see we have a few sane posters over here

 

On topic: Even Kenobi would whoop Nox's ***.

 

Ha, sanity on a star wars forum? Impossible!

 

Seriously though, I wouldn't mind if the arguments had any basis but half the time the arguments go against G-canon, which is why I enjoy the various tournaments you guys go because they make sense (well usually).

 

On topic: Even Coleman Trebor would whoop Nox's ***.

 

Fixed