Darth Vader vs Darth Nox

[Aurbere]

Yet you won't type out these flaws, and respond that I am ignorant for not seeing the flaws.

 

That's like if I decided to look at you and make the claim that you are stupid, and ignorant for not realizing you are stupid. So no, I am not ignorant but you are possibly proving that you are with your lack of creating an actual counter.

 

Do you really need me to hold your hand? Fine.

 

There is no comparison between Nox and Maul, least of all Nox and Sidious. That argument has no ground to stand on. Also, you are making a very big assumption in saying that Nox uses a double-bladed lightsaber, when there is no evidence to suggest this other than game mechanics.

 

Secondly, we have no idea what lightsaber forms Nox uses, nor what kind of lightsaber he uses. There is no information on Nox's lightsaber skill, thus comparing him to Maul is literally impossible.

 

And finally, we have no idea how powerful Nox's Force lightning actually is, and comparing this to Sidious' Force lightning is yet another argument that has no ground to stand on.

 

Nox has no canon information on his combat skills. We have no idea how he fights, nor what his combat responses are. Your argument has no substance and his comprised of pure speculation.

[skarlson]

Any discussion on vader vs anyone is pointless as the retort will always be the same. Just replace his name with chuck norris and you have what amounts to the counter for any suggestion someone else was more powerful. In my honest opinion though Vader does not hold a candle to Darth Nox. Darth Nox was a master of the dark side, the guardian of all things sith being that was his domain on the dark council, in the words of another dark councilor the most powerful sith born in generations and the only known individual able to hold the massive amount of power generated by multiple force ghosts.

 

Darth Sidious himself was cowed by angry sith spirits when he did not demonstrate the appropriate level of respect. Darth Nox on the other hand binds and forces them into service adding their power to his already formidable potential. We do not actually get to see the full potential of Darth Nox because for balance reasons he is kowtowed. His power only grows through the maturing of his own natural potential, through methods used by other sith to increase their power like Darth Thanaton, through the acquisition of force ghosts and through the use of various artifacts such as used by Kun.

 

Darth Nox not only has a knowledge like that of Sidious of sith lore but has a natural affinity for it. He is also keeper of that sith knowledge during a time when it has not been broken by thousands of years of few or no sith. He lives as a ruler of the original sith people himself being a possible pure blood. He has access to and is the keeper of knowledge sith in later times are able to acquire only with great effort if at all. Vader simply cannot compete regardless of his potential, which he never met, even if you want to remove from the table discussion whether it should be said no one has ever been as powerful.

 

Nox wins imo but that is moot; in this argument one side basically states chuck norris wins because he is chuck norris.

Edited October 27, 2013 by skarlson

[Makoto_Shishio]

Cutting out the majority of your "argument" to the point here that you basically use to crash your entire argument.

You mean you don't have a response to anything the rest of us argued about and thus resort to another baseless argument?

I would completely agree, 95% of the EU is really just attempts to make the original characters of SW have more powerful feats for specific writer ego measuring proportions. It directly contradicts the movie characters' story purposes and overall capabilities, so yes, I would agree that almost every feat Vader has accomplished in the EU is not canon.

Wait, so you actually think you have the authority to declare what's canon and whats not? You really are a joke of a debater.

 

You haven't even offered a single shred of evidence, and now you're trying to proclaim whats canon, and what isn't. This is the typical movie hating kotor playing kids last resort of an argument. Your whole arguments revolving around Nox are nothing but assumptions that hasn't even been declared canon, you're assuming a great deal of things with absolutely nothing to back you up, its no wonder you resort to this kind of argument that because they didn't do it in the movies, therefore you won't accept the evidence thats been given and shown to you.

 

First off there wasn't an opponent dangerous enough for Vader to even unleash his full powers on. Secondly, since when do you actually get to declare whats canon and what isn't? Third, just because the movie characters hasn't displayed feats like that on film, doesn't mean they couldn't.

 

Last but not least, you do realize that the way the movie characters were portrayed in the EU(like lifting mountains, blasting armies of droids etc etc) were what lucas actually intended and stated, but couldn't showcase it in the films due to budget constrains?

 

But your argument that timelines such as TOR don't exist because the feats original characters have in the EU suddenly means they can't exist? The entire storyline that TOR, KOTOR, and etc. take place in have no mention in the original films, meaning that they can co exist amongst the films legitimately because they aren't the same characters that in the films are shown incapable of performing some feats.

Your whole argument was that the characters in the movie has feats which contradicts what they performed in the EU(this applies not just to vader, but to luke, mace, yoda and palpatine) therefore you think they are not canon or applicable in a debate.

 

What you ignored was Lucas stated that these Jedi and Sith were the prime order in the sw history where they were at their strongest so if you're trying to use this argument that "it contradicts the movies", then you should know that the powers showcased in all of the EU(which includes TOR, DE, TOTJ KOTOR) are contradicted by what powers has been displayed in the movies and thus shouldn't be canon too right?

I find that to be logical, as to say these characters are the best duelists, masters of the Force in combat, and overall are more powerful in an age where it really comes down to about 3 actual Force users in the galaxy at one point, to an era like TOR where you have two prime orders of the Sith and Jedi where there are literally two factions at war to enhance the capability of warriors based on the concept of escalation that the competition in war brings?

 

Yeah, that's plausible. So no, your point that these eras can't exist are incorrect, as unlike the expanded chronicles of Vader and other original film characters, they are successful additions to the SW universe that aren't contradicted by the films.

The timeline of TOR shouldn't cease to exist, maybe not. But by your own argument and logic, even their powers are contradicted by the movies thus their displays of prowess shouldn't be considered canon either.

 

Anyways your whole argument is pointless, you don't get to decide whats canon and whats not, Lucasarts or Disney now, or the writers get the authority to declare what is canon and what isn't and not some guy desperate to downplay the PT/OT characters to suit his argument.

Edited October 27, 2013 by Makoto_Shishio

[Selenial]

Btw, noxs force storm wasn't actual force storm.

 

It was a lightning field, loads of NPC's have something called force storm, but it's just a lightning field, nothing as special as actual force storm.

[LadyKulvax]

Btw, noxs force storm wasn't actual force storm.

 

It was a lightning field, loads of NPC's have something called force storm, but it's just a lightning field, nothing as special as actual force storm.

 

You've got no idea how many times I've had to correct people who actually thought others could replicate Sidious' Force Storm ability, in general chat, on youtube, on theforce.net, ugh....

[Beniboybling]

Oh boy. I'm not sure I care about this topic to get into such a lengthy debate here so I'll try to make this short.

 

1. In regards to Vader vs Maul, Dun Moch does not have to be used when you are winning, in fact it would be more likely to be used if you were not. Taunting your opponent is a way of unbalancing them, if you aren't making any ground using Dun Moch can lead them to expose weaknesses and then you can take the advantage. There are multiple occasions of this happening e.g. Unduli used it against Ventress (though it backfired) and Marek used it against Vader. In both situations up until that point neither party had a significant advantage over the other. Why did Maul score a hit on Vader? I expect it was a combination of Maul's personal skill (which is close to Vader's) and the unorthodoxy of the saberstaff - which as far as I'm aware Vader had never encountered at the time. But not because Vader was slow, because that just doesn't make any logical sense. Vader ain't slow, he's schooled many agile opponents.

 

2. Vader has such a high fortitude that in doesn't really matter, even if Nox lands some critical blows it won't bring him down. Whereas with his inferior lightsaber abilities and inferior Force Ability its only a matter of time before Nox crumbles under Vader's onslaught - if he chooses to engage him and maintain such an engagement in lightsaber combat. Indeed one could argue that the blows he deals will only make Vader strong, providing him with more pain to fuel his Force rage, the effect in his duel with Maul was that Maul was overwhelmed and blade destroyed.

 

3. Vader is not lacking in knowledge of the Force. According to canon Sidious mastered every Force ability ever known, some unknown, and created new ones. His library likely makes Nox's look like the Children's Section. From that knowledge Sidious gave all Vader would need to become the ultimate warrior. Let's remember that a Sith Warrior does not insta-lose against a Sith Inquisitor due to lack of knowledge in the Force - in game and outside of it. Because mastery over the basics if great enough can be enough to overwhelm a more knowledgeable opponent. And Vader has a high level mastery over all the necessary powers he needs to defeat Nox. Whereas I can think of no special abilities that Nox possess that Vader would be unable to counter.

 

4. Galen Marek is not untrained, he underwent intense training from a very young age at the hands of Darth Vader - for over a dozen years. Just like Darth Maul who was 17 when his training was complete. He achieved a high level mastery over Juyo, Shien and Soresu and has mastered many high level Force Abilities. Some example being charging his lightsaber with lightning, using precise applications of lightning to short out machinery, tutanimis, the ability to create Sith Seekers and Lightning grenades. And the rare and high level ability to create the Force Maelstrom, which was a stepping stone towards the most powerful Force ability known - the Force Storm.

[Kaedusz]

Any discussion on vader vs anyone is pointless as the retort will always be the same. Just replace his name with chuck norris

 

lol

 

/5char

[dcaleb]

Vader suffers from not really getting much screen time in the EU, we mostly have to go with the slow moving kendo Vader from the original trilogy who got chumped by a single blast of force lightning. There is The Force Unleashed, but that one is so non-canon it hurts since Rebels is apparently going to be about the founding of the Rebellion and it is extremely doubtful it will follow the path set in those games.

 

Edit: Also, Galen utterly wrecked Vader so why do people keep bringing up how awesome he was like Vader went toe to toe with him instead of being wrecked?

Edited January 3, 2015 by dcaleb

[Wolfninjajedi]

Vader suffers from not really getting much screen time in the EU, we mostly have to go with the slow moving kendo Vader from the original trilogy who got chumped by a single blast of force lightning. There is The Force Unleashed, but that one is so non-canon it hurts since Rebels is apparently going to be about the founding of the Rebellion and it is extremely doubtful it will follow the path set in those games.

 

Edit: Also, Galen utterly wrecked Vader so why do people keep bringing up how awesome he was like Vader went toe to toe with him instead of being wrecked?

 

1. What? Lol he's one of the most explored and featured characters in the EU and he isn't slow at all, even going by the movies he was reacting to Han drawing his blaster faster than a wink of an eye, which is 0.1-0.4 seconds(or 100-400 miliseconds). He was able to fight Luke, who reacted and avoided a full speeding speeder bike going at 310 mph at the last second, and cutting it with precise timing.

 

He also didn't die to a single blast of Force Lighting, it was a prolonged exposure and really the Dark Blast which Sidious emitted was noted as the fatal blow. The fact that Vader was moving at all while carrying Sidious as he was discharging Force Lighting, Lighting which bent Mace's saber back into his face, Lighting which annihilated a small army of Stormtroopers, disintegrated beings and so on is telling.

 

People keep bringing up that as if it's to discredt Vader, that is actually one of his best durability feats, it's not a bad showing at all. Especially since he survived all the way from the throne room and to the hanger bay.

 

2. Galen didn't utterly wreck Vader either and Galen only won due to being faster and having knowledge of how Vader fought. This was also way before Vader's prime, so bringing it up is pointless as he increased and became more powerful by ESB-ROTJ and even then, Vader bested Galen's clone Starkiller who was more powerful than the original.

Edited January 4, 2015 by Wolfninjajedi

[Kaedusz]

1. What? Lol he's one of the most explored and featured characters in the EU and he isn't slow at all, even going by the movies he was reacting to Han drawing his blaster faster than a wink of an eye, which is 0.1-0.4 seconds(or 100-400 miliseconds). He was able to fight Luke, who reacted and avoided a full speeding speeder bike going at 310 mph at the last second, and cutting it with precise timing.

 

He also didn't die to a single blast of Force Lighting, it was a prolonged exposure and really the Dark Blast which Sidious emitted was noted as the fatal blow. The fact that Vader was moving at all while carrying Sidious as he was discharging Force Lighting, Lighting which bent Mace's saber back into his face, Lighting which annihilated a small army of Stormtroopers, disintegrated beings and so on is telling.

 

People keep bringing up that as if it's to discredt Vader, that is actually one of his best durability feats, it's not a bad showing at all. Especially since he survived all the way from the throne room and to the hanger bay.

 

Almost all these things come in the force user package that everyone gets.Nothing too fancy.

Edited January 4, 2015 by Kaedusz

[Wolfninjajedi]

Almost all these things come in the force user package that everyone gets.Nothing too fancy.

 

Surviving Sidious' Lighting is normal?.....What? No...and I'm just using those, to say even movie Vader was quick, he wasn't slow like dcaleb and many believe.

Edited January 4, 2015 by Wolfninjajedi

[Kaedusz]

Surviving Sidious' Lighting is normal?

this particularly no, that's why i said almost

 

however if sidious is composed and has full intent to kill Vader i don't think he will survive it.

what happened in the movie was just like when you start peeing and someone pushes you and you end up peeing all over.the stream is not at full power and it's not concentrated

Edited January 4, 2015 by Kaedusz

[Wolfninjajedi]

this particularly no, that's why i said almost

 

Ah...more words to add to fill character length.

[Wolfninjajedi]

this particularly no, that's why i said almost

 

however if sidious is composed and has full intent to kill Vader i don't think he will survive it.

what happened in the movie was just like when you start peeing and someone pushes you and you end up peeing all over.the stream is not at full power and it's not concentrated

 

Except Sidious did ramp up the power with his Lighting and it was going into Vader.

 

'Young fool!' Palpatine rasped at Luke. 'Only now at the end, do you understand. Your puerile skills are no match for the power of the dark side. You have paid a price for your lack of vision. Now, young Skywalker, you will pay the price in full. You will die!'

 

He laughed maniacally; and although it would not have seemed possible to Luke, the outpouring of bolts from the Emperor's fingers actually increased in intensity. The sound screamed through the room, the murderous brightness of the flashes was overwhelming.

 

Luke's body slowed, wilted, finally crumpled under the hideous barrage. He stopped moving altogether. At last, he appeared totally lifeless. The Emperor hissed maliciously.

 

At that instant, Vader sprang up and grabbed the Emperor from behind, pinning Palpatine's upper arras to his torso. Weaker than he'd ever been, Vader had lain still these last few minutes, focusing his every fiber of being on this one, concentrated act - the only action possible; his last, if he failed. Ignoring pain, ignoring his shame and his weaknesses, ignoring the bone-crushing noise in his head, he focused solely and sightlessly on his will - his will to defeat the evil embodied in the Emperor.

 

Palpatine struggled in the grip of Vader's unfeeling embrace, his hands still shooting bolts of malign energy out in all directions. In his wild flailing, the lightning ripped across the room, tearing into Vader. The Dark Lord fell again, electric currents crackling down his helmet, over his cape, into his heart.

 

Vader stumbled with his load to the middle of the bridge over the black chasm leading to the power core. He held the wailing despot high over his head, and with a final spasm of strength, hurled him into the abyss.

 

Palpatine's body, still spewing bolts of light, spun out of control, into the void, bouncing back and forth off the sides of the shaft as it fell. It disappeared at last; but then, a few seconds later, a distant explosion could be heard, far down at the core. A rush of air billowed out the shaft, into the throne room.

 

The wind whipped at Lord Vader's cape, as he staggered and collapsed toward the hole, trying to follow his master to the end. Luke crawled to his father's side, though, and pulled the Dark Lord away from the edge of the chasm, to safety.

 

Even the script makes note of this too..

 

EMPEROR

Now, young Skywalker...you will die.

 

Although it would not have seemed possible, the outpouring of bolts

from the Emperor's fingers actually increases in intensity, the sound

screaming through the room. Luke's body writhes in pain.

 

Vader grabs the Emperor from behind, fighting for control of the robed

figure despite the Dark Lord's weakened body and gravely weakened arm.

The Emperor struggles in his embrace, his bolt-shooting hands now

lifted high, away from Luke. Now the white lightning arcs back to

strike at Vader.

 

Even the movie of course, shows Lighting going directly into Vader. Sure it went around the room, but it wasn't much and it was only near the edge of the pit that it was going all over, before that you had it going directly into Vader's body and even after when it was going all over, you still have it hitting Vader.

 

 

http://share.gifyoutube.com/y0Y2a5.gif

 

At any rate, this is all kind of moot. Vader wins this fight.

 

Anyway off to work, bbl peoples.

Edited January 4, 2015 by Wolfninjajedi

[Kaedusz]

ramp up the power

=

start peeing

 

 

vader grabs the emperor from behind

=

someone pushes you

 

 

 

his hands still shooting bolts of malign energy out in all directions. In his wild flailing, the lightning ripped across the room, tearing into vader.

=

and you end up peeing all over

Edited January 4, 2015 by Kaedusz

[Rhyltran]

=

 

 

 

 

=

 

 

 

 

 

=

 

Sure but since when has your piss ever been strong enough to turn someone to ashes?

[Kaedusz]

Sure but since when has your piss ever been strong enough to turn someone to ashes?

speaking of which, did Darth Peedious pee at all or it's the same as his lack of sleep.

did he use the force to pulverize the pee while it's in the bladder or just used the force to satisfy his water needs hence he never had to

Edited January 4, 2015 by Kaedusz

[Wolfninjajedi]

=

 

 

 

 

=

 

 

 

 

 

=

 

You said that he didn't ramp up the power, but he did.

 

Anyway this is moot, why this thread was bumped I haven't a clue.

Edited January 5, 2015 by Wolfninjajedi

[Rhyltran]

speaking of which, did Darth Peedious pee at all or it's the same as his lack of sleep.

did he use the force to pulverize the pee while it's in the bladder or just used the force to satisfy his water needs hence he never had to

 

Hm. All of the above I'd imagine. He appears to be a master of a great many tricks.

[dcaleb]

1. What? Lol he's one of the most explored and featured characters in the EU and he isn't slow at all, even going by the movies he was reacting to Han drawing his blaster faster than a wink of an eye, which is 0.1-0.4 seconds(or 100-400 miliseconds). He was able to fight Luke, who reacted and avoided a full speeding speeder bike going at 310 mph at the last second, and cutting it with precise timing.

 

Blocking Han's attack was precognition, not speed. Luke's single strike would also be an example of that, not even mentioning it is really unlikely that speeder was going that fast.

 

He also didn't die to a single blast of Force Lighting, it was a prolonged exposure and really the Dark Blast which Sidious emitted was noted as the fatal blow. The fact that Vader was moving at all while carrying Sidious as he was discharging Force Lighting, Lighting which bent Mace's saber back into his face, Lighting which annihilated a small army of Stormtroopers, disintegrated beings and so on is telling.

 

Luke walked off being hit with Sidious's lightning, even his 'increased voltage' lightning mentioned in the laughable novel (didn't it say Owen Lars was Obi-Wan's brother?) and screenplay. And, neither of those things ever actually happened.

 

2. Galen didn't utterly wreck Vader either and Galen only won due to being faster and having knowledge of how Vader fought. This was also way before Vader's prime, so bringing it up is pointless as he increased and became more powerful by ESB-ROTJ and even then, Vader bested Galen's clone Starkiller who was more powerful than the original.

 

BS, Galen flat out overpowered Vader in usage of the force. And the 'he just knew how Vader fought' thing is double BS, Vader trained Galen not the other way around. If anyone had an advantage born from knowing how the other fought it was Vader, not Starkiller. And, by 'bested' his clone do you mean 'there was an ending where another Starkiller clone ganked the clone you were playing as while you were about to finish Vader off'?

[Aurbere]

Palpatine's lightning had long term effects on Luke's physical body that required a great time recovering.

[dcaleb]

Palpatine's lightning had long term effects on Luke's physical body that required a great time recovering.

 

I haven't read The Truce at Bakura in awhile, but I'm pretty sure it really wasn't that long at all. He had to spend a night in the bacta tank and it was recommended he use a cane for a day or two, as I recall. By Star Wars standards that is basically an outpatient procedure like the time I got my toenail removed.

[Aurbere]

I haven't read The Truce at Bakura in awhile, but I'm pretty sure it really wasn't that long at all. He had to spend a night in the bacta tank and it was recommended he use a cane for a day or two, as I recall. By Star Wars standards that is basically an outpatient procedure like the time I got my toenail removed.

 

That was to get rid of the long term effect it had on him. I forget what it was called, but it was some fancy medical science term.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Blocking Han's attack was precognition, not speed. Luke's single strike would also be an example of that, not even mentioning it is really unlikely that speeder was going that fast.

 

 

BS, Galen flat out overpowered Vader in usage of the force. And the 'he just knew how Vader fought' thing is double BS, Vader trained Galen not the other way around. If anyone had an advantage born from knowing how the other fought it was Vader, not Starkiller. And, by 'bested' his clone do you mean 'there was an ending where another Starkiller clone ganked the clone you were playing as while you were about to finish Vader off'?

 

1. It was rather speed actually..

 

Faster than the wink of an eye, Han draws his blaster and pops off a

couple of shots directly at Vader. The Dark Lord quickly raises his

hand, deflecting the bolts into one of the side walls, where they

explode harmlessly. Just as quickly, Han's weapon zips into Vader's

hand. The evil presence calmly places the gun on the table in front of

him.

 

- ESB script

 

Also the speeder bike did pick up full speed.

 

Luke stumbled out of the bushes as the speeder was bearing down on him full throttle, laser cannon firing.

 

ROTJ novel

 

Speeder bikes are excellent scout vehicles because they can reach up to 500 kilometers per hour.

 

- Taken from New Essential Guide to Vehicles/Vessels

 

Yeah...310 mph.

 

Even still Luke has moved in blurs, has attacked faster than though, performed multiple afterimages of his blade, etc. So even disregarding this, Luke was pretty fast by ROTJ.

 

2. No, it wasn't the DS scene. Vader did win against the Clone, he only lost due to the injury he received at the chest before the fight started and wasn't expecting the Clone to target it when he was right infront of him, kneeling down

 

Even then it took a full power, directed shot at that wound and all it did was make Vader take to his knees, he tanked the Lighting pretty well, which also disintegrated Stormtroopers and other things.

 

Also yeah...it is BS, because Vader should know how Galen fought, but he didn't, so can chalk that up to WIS/PIS.

Edited January 5, 2015 by Wolfninjajedi

[dcaleb]

Just read it, turns out I remembered wrongly. His treatment didn't even require immersion in a bacta tank (though it was an option), they basically just gave him a few shots and told him to take it easy a couple of days.

 

As for what they said was wrong with him, 'sudden and massive calcification of the skeletal structure' that for some reason caused an 'abrupt drop in blood minerals' that was giving him 'micro-seizures'. I have no idea if that is how getting hit by lightning actually works or not, though.