HoboWithAStick Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 2.0 came out over 6 months ago and my Sin tank is still a piece of junk, I get totally destroyed in 16 man hardmode ops and all NM content. Sin dps is still not viable for progression ops and is the worst dps in the game by far (outside of pvp) basically making it the least wanted advanced class in the game for pve. Then we have operatives, concealment is barely useful in pvp against anyone that isn't a bad and is totally junk for pve. But then we look at their heals and they are best in class for pve and pvp making the sorcs and especially merc healers look bad side by side. And then we have sorcs, squishest class in the game by far and don't even have that great of dps. Sure they can blow you up in pvp if you let them, but are very easy to shut down and are almost worthless when it comes to progression pve as they don't offer better dps then a merc and don't even give an armor debuff. Oh and lets not forget marauders and snipers, best range and melee dps in the game. They have the most and best cooldowns in the game along with the best utility. This fact has even been admited by bioware and guess what? They are not even going to give them the needed nerf in 2.5, just keep them as is. I guess bioware wanted to change the name from flavour of the month to flavour of the year? So here is my question for you bioware, Why does class balance take you so long? You have said in the past class balance takes time, while I can somewhat understand that but what I would also like to point out that other MMO's and moba games do class balance on at least a bi-weekly to monthly basis and never any less then that. It took the bioware austin crew 6 months just to do some class balance on ONE class. This clearly all needs to change as it creates a endless numbers of issues for the subscriber base. I'm sure just like me a very large portion of the player population use to really enjoy this game as some point and just like me I'm sure many of you are only subbed because of your friends or guild. sadly enough for me this soon will not be enough to keep me in the game, I do not enjoy the pvp because of class balance and I do not enjoy getting destoyed on my sin tank in pve because it takes almost a year to balance even after the community told you that this would happen before you even did it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZETA_SCORPII Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 Stick to automatics and leave the 16 Wheelers to those who know how to drive them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordArtemis Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 Your speaking of PVP as it is the feature that holds the majority of players to the game. I am of the opinion that it does not. PVP players likely represent a small portion of the playerbase....probably because PVP is not exactly stellar in this game at present, and the PVP community has not been treated well. I do not say this to dispute your points and contentions, only to point out that PVP failure will likely not lead to the games demise or a huge loss in players. If there ever was a huge loss due to poor PVP it likely happened long ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoboWithAStick Posted October 19, 2013 Author Share Posted October 19, 2013 Your speaking of PVP as it is the feature that holds the majority of players to the game. I am of the opinion that it does not. PVP players likely represent a small portion of the playerbase....probably because PVP is not exactly stellar in this game at present, and the PVP community has not been treated well. I do not say this to dispute your points and contentions, only to point out that PVP failure will likely not lead to the games demise or a huge loss in players. If there ever was a huge loss due to poor PVP it likely happened long ago. I would like to believe that at one point the pvp in this game was good and was a valid option for most players. After 2.0 came out though through a combination of the bolster system and bad class balance alot of players do not do pvp anymore. I remember back when after a raid my guild would have serveral groups doing pvp, now even the people that use to pvp don't even do it. Pvp is currently very bad in swtor and until they do some good class balance, do some fixes to bolster and do a huge rehall on resolve its going to stay a very small portion of the player pop that does it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elyx Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 Welcome to SWtOR. game released in Dec 2011, and it took them until 2.0 to finally make the guardian/juggeranut tanking tree worth using. Assassin's/Shadows have had issues since 2.0....while I support your general frustration with the class, it is getting changed soon, and you have yet to beat the top winners for having to wait. this is like complaining after the milk has been spilled and already cleaned up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestXv Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 Welcome to SWtOR. game released in Dec 2011, and it took them until 2.0 to finally make the guardian/juggeranut tanking tree worth using. Assassin's/Shadows have had issues since 2.0....while I support your general frustration with the class, it is getting changed soon, and you have yet to beat the top winners for having to wait. this is like complaining after the milk has been spilled and already cleaned up. What are you talking about I'm pretty sure that juggernauts have always been good tanks as. I've played one since launch and I've always done great at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoboHut Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 What are you talking about I'm pretty sure that juggernauts have always been good tanks as. I've played one since launch and I've always done great at it. Nope, he's referring to the fact that until 2.0 came out, going half up the middle tree had more mitigation for a jug tank than their tanking tree. It took that long for them to fix that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestXv Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 I guess its just that back then it took more skill to be a juggernaut tank if that's what you meant. And to the op Assassins can make great tanks the issue is that most end game assassin gear afaik stacks endurance with low mitigation stat so a lot of assassins can end up with much more health than juggernauts or powertechs but will take much more damage. The way around this is to customize your gear a bit by swapping mods and enhacements around so that you end up with high mitigation with lower endurance gains. This is more expensive and time consuming but if you succeed at it then you're assassin can do just as well as other tanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codycroft Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 Meh, I think Shadow tanks are broken, which is why I don't play mine. Will check it out after the patch and see. That said, OP sounds like he wants NIM tank awesomeness that can respec to PVP awesomeness. Not going to happen. roll an alt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoboWithAStick Posted October 20, 2013 Author Share Posted October 20, 2013 I guess its just that back then it took more skill to be a juggernaut tank if that's what you meant. And to the op Assassins can make great tanks the issue is that most end game assassin gear afaik stacks endurance with low mitigation stat so a lot of assassins can end up with much more health than juggernauts or powertechs but will take much more damage. The way around this is to customize your gear a bit by swapping mods and enhacements around so that you end up with high mitigation with lower endurance gains. This is more expensive and time consuming but if you succeed at it then you're assassin can do just as well as other tanks. Thats not the issue with Assassin tanks, the issue is that in full kell gear I have barely 37% damage reduction and when I'm tanking something like HM 16 Man Bestia I get hit for 27k if I don't shield the attack. At that point all my mitigation stacking is worthless since I have such a low base on damage reduction. So it wouldn't matter if I had 99% Shield chance 99% defense and 99% abosorb if I didn't shield of defend against it I'm still getting hit for 27k. FIY Assassins get a endurence boost even before skill tree, I have 43k and change without endurence stacking. I can't say I know any tanks anymore that do that, maybe just bads? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestXv Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 Thats not the issue with Assassin tanks, the issue is that in full kell gear I have barely 37% damage reduction and when I'm tanking something like HM 16 Man Bestia I get hit for 27k if I don't shield the attack. At that point all my mitigation stacking is worthless since I have such a low base on damage reduction. So it wouldn't matter if I had 99% Shield chance 99% defense and 99% abosorb if I didn't shield of defend against it I'm still getting hit for 27k. FIY Assassins get a endurence boost even before skill tree, I have 43k and change without endurence stacking. I can't say I know any tanks anymore that do that, maybe just bads? Idk but I did an NiM TFB and we had an assassin tank and me a juggernaut and didn't have any problems ehh I guess it just doesn't work as well for some people. And I thought kell would have higher reduction than that if you're using a full set? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoboWithAStick Posted October 20, 2013 Author Share Posted October 20, 2013 Idk but I did an NiM TFB and we had an assassin tank and me a juggernaut and didn't have any problems ehh I guess it just doesn't work as well for some people. And I thought kell would have higher reduction than that if you're using a full set? Only slightly higher per item, I've tanked NM Terror and its fine but Sins get hit so much harder then the other tanks. It really shows on that fight since most of our stats are useless against him. 8 Man Nm is somewhat fine as long as the heals are on top of it. Then you go to 16 Man NM and the damage is just crazy spicky, something like NM thrasher hits Sins crazy hard. I pretty much explain it like if we are not above 60% health we might as well be dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmjarec Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 It would make more sense to buff what needs it instead of nerfing across the board on classes that are already tuned. They over nerf and under buff so just buff what needs it and leave my mara alone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
demonicwarlord Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 (edited) Thats not the issue with Assassin tanks, the issue is that in full kell gear I have barely 37% damage reduction and when I'm tanking something like HM 16 Man Bestia I get hit for 27k if I don't shield the attack. At that point all my mitigation stacking is worthless since I have such a low base on damage reduction. So it wouldn't matter if I had 99% Shield chance 99% defense and 99% abosorb if I didn't shield of defend against it I'm still getting hit for 27k. FIY Assassins get a endurence boost even before skill tree, I have 43k and change without endurence stacking. I can't say I know any tanks anymore that do that, maybe just bads? lol just lol. Yes shadow/assassin tanks need more mitigation but with 43k health you are not optimized at all I wouldn't be surprised if you had endurance augments with that much hp. I am a guardian tank and run with a shadow tank, they do take more damage than me but in HM and NiM he takes nowhere near 27k damage, you are doing something wrong. Oh and also, Bestia puts on a stacking debuff on the tank with threat and yes you will eventually take too much damage to handle, any tank will... Edited October 20, 2013 by demonicwarlord Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmjarec Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 They shouldnt habe went down such a predictable path of just flat boosts and mitigation. The heal mechanic was nice give them some actives and passives instead so they cant boost when they need to otherwise they will just be jugg clones eventually Besides they are ment for dps bioware is going againt the grain otherwise take them out of the inquisitpr base class and put a real dps in there. They now just want them to be tnks so nobody that wants to dps will use them unless they want to suck. Every assassin/stealth class since the beginning of time jas had the ability to be superb burst. Not bioware oh no Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoboWithAStick Posted October 20, 2013 Author Share Posted October 20, 2013 lol just lol. Yes shadow/assassin tanks need more mitigation but with 43k health you are not optimized at all I wouldn't be surprised if you had endurance augments with that much hp. I am a guardian tank and run with a shadow tank, they do take more damage than me but in HM and NiM he takes nowhere near 27k damage, you are doing something wrong. Oh and also, Bestia puts on a stacking debuff on the tank with threat and yes you will eventually take too much damage to handle, any tank will... So first off you clearly didn't read any of the other posts so I will comment again. No endurance stacking, no endurance augments just straight mitigation. Assassins have a passive skill called Assassins training which gives them more endurance which is why you see allot of assassin tanks with high hp. I am also doing HM 16 man and not HM 8 man, the damage is much greater in 16 man then 8 man. The move in question is bestias force push which can be shielded but if its not then it does 27k damage. Once again as I said before, if I have 99% shield, 99% defense and 99% absorb shielded hit from her force push is still going to hit me for 27k because of my low damage reduction. So its not me doing anything wrong its the class, this is why bioware is changing it. It is also why there have been around 50 different threats talking about it since 2.0 pts and why sins currently suck. One last thing, if you are a tank doing endurance stacking, you'd be around 49-53k HP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafaman Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 Lol! So... this is hilarious given that this is being addressed in 2.5. Yup... just read the sticky up right now for more details. So, it took a while. But why whine about it now. Major ups for Shadow tanks are coming. In fact they will soon be the best tanks in the game. BTW, I love my shadow tank and have cleared all on content with her with no major issues. Working through NiM now and having a blast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoboWithAStick Posted October 20, 2013 Author Share Posted October 20, 2013 Lol! So... this is hilarious given that this is being addressed in 2.5. Yup... just read the sticky up right now for more details. So, it took a while. But why whine about it now. Major ups for Shadow tanks are coming. In fact they will soon be the best tanks in the game. BTW, I love my shadow tank and have cleared all on content with her with no major issues. Working through NiM now and having a blast. addressed in 2.5 which isn't out for over a month and all these things have been issues since 2.0 came out. So is it okay for them to leave class balance for this long? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafaman Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 addressed in 2.5 which isn't out for over a month and all these things have been issues since 2.0 came out. So is it okay for them to leave class balance for this long? It took a while, but they moved in the right direction. Not sure if it is OK, but I've been playing my Shadow Tank all that time and not once did I put the toon away because of any deficiencies. I never felt gimped. I loved it and will love it even more now. I'd rather have slow movement than a nerf bat every 30 days based on QQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoboWithAStick Posted October 20, 2013 Author Share Posted October 20, 2013 It took a while, but they moved in the right direction. Not sure if it is OK, but I've been playing my Shadow Tank all that time and not once did I put the toon away because of any deficiencies. I never felt gimped. I loved it and will love it even more now. I'd rather have slow movement than a nerf bat every 30 days based on QQ. Sin tanks are viable options but getting hit for 27k in a 16 man HM is pretty silly. It is good they are finally doing some changes but they are not even addressing everything that they need too. If they are going to wait over half a year to do class balance it should be a big deal and what is coming in 2.5 is hardly a big deal for most. I really just don't think the combat team have any idea what they are doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafaman Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 Sin tanks are viable options but getting hit for 27k in a 16 man HM is pretty silly. It is good they are finally doing some changes but they are not even addressing everything that they need too. If they are going to wait over half a year to do class balance it should be a big deal and what is coming in 2.5 is hardly a big deal for most. I really just don't think the combat team have any idea what they are doing. Well, you are entitled to your opinion certainly, but you are a bit late to the party. This has been covered extensively in the Class threads. The fact that there is a change is a great. I'd rather they be late then not do anything at all. Nevertheless, my Shadow Tank has weathered the storm as a good Shadow Tank does and the rewards are forthcoming. Now, of more relevance is a discussion on what this means for other tanks. And... that discussion has already begun as now Guardians are feeling gimped. Lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmjarec Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 Shoulda fixed dps first since it was an issue a lot longer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafaman Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 Shoulda fixed dps first since it was an issue a lot longer Already told you and showed you, they are fixing it with the same patch. 2.5 is taking care of Shadows across the board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmjarec Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 Slightly increasing voltaic isnt going to close a 500 dps gap or do anything for the WHOLE other spec Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafaman Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 Slightly increasing voltaic isnt going to close a 500 dps gap or do anything for the WHOLE other spec I won't go down the rabbit whole with you so you will have to read about it on your own. But I will tell you they are doing more than a slight increase to Voltaic and they are improving the DoTs for the other specs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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