Jedi Guardian Changes - Game Update 2.5

[Hell_Kaiser_Fett]

1) Having an extra move isn't going to help us, and frankly MS should remain an integral part of our rotation and abilities, just not be so blatantly dependent upon it that if we need to move we're instantly gibbed. Guardians excel at burn phases from what I've experienced, more so than most, easily. The idea, it's second version, the one I like the most, not only works extremely well with our current set up, but fits into it without making our DPS busted good and helps with mobility issues.

 

2) Another idea which struck me as I was playing my Vanguard was how they have a talent that increases the damage done to a target by your attacks by 3%. Triumph as it's called is a 2 point talent devoted specifically to the Gut bleed, and it's previously mentioned effect would play well with our DoTs as well should we gain something for Burning Blade or Plasmabrand or Burning Purpose, any one of those three could easily have a talent devoted to it in order to increase our damage done and make our DoTs an even bigger priority than just simple bonus bits of damage to buffer our main striking abilities.

 

Take your pick on any of the "useless" talents we have floating around to choose from to replace it.

 

3) You're right Kaiser-Fett, that name does suck. How about Veiled Vigilance instead? Or maybe Empowering Light?

 

I'm not a fan of the term "veiled", though something with Vigilance works fine. Maybe a term showing either a) our mastery of Shien/saber combat, or b) our mastery of the Force/light side.

 

As far as Master Strike goes, I really like the move, but we do need more procs for it, if not then less focus on it. But I definitely don't want another ability on my bars. I don't like more than 2 on the bottom of my screen, but I've had to add a 3rd bar on the right side of the screen so I can have everything I could ever need in any situation, just in case. I don't have this problem with any other class, 2 normally is more than enough. But for my Guardians/Juggernaut I have to have 3.

 

As far as useless talents, Vigilance has more than any other spec that I've ever played. Stagger, Gather Strength, and Preparation are all crap imo. Stagger sounds ok for pvp (never pvped so...) and I rather like Defiance, since I get knocked back or stunned quite a bit in endgame, and its far better than the 3 I mentioned above. But if I'm putting points in something to ascend to the next skill tier, it'll be Defiance.

[Creslan]

The problem I have with adding any buff to strike is that it is only about 0.49%-1.5% of our Total Dps on a 5 min parse. The way things go atm, you rarely need to use strike between combat focus, saber throw, stasis, sundering strike and zen strike, Strike is a last resort focus builder/filler. Any damage buff to strike would be a wasted buff IMO unless if concerned focus generation, if you buff strike to give us 4-5 focus per use that would transfer into more total dps than just buffing the damage of strike by a large amount overall. Even then, I feel that we could use scrutiny elsewhere concerning buffs.

 

I think we should face the Elephant in the room, Master Strike. I know some people don't like it, but any hope for a tree rework won't happen til 3.0 at the earliest to see about moving away from MS as the cornerstone of our damage.

We need to come together and just ask for a Zen Strike buff, options could be:

A.) 45% chance for Zen Strike for OH and PB

B.) 45% increase for OH, 60% chance for PB(due to longer Cooldown) for zen strike

C.) 35% chance for OH and PB, but add Slash into the list.

keep the rate limit at 9 secs for the above ( higher rate limit than other classes on their reset abilities).

 

or Ask for a passive Armor Pen in the 25%-35% range.

 

That's about as much of a quick fix we can expect til a full class/tree rework come a new story arc expansion similar to Makeb.

[ArenCordial]

The problem I have with adding any buff to strike is that it is only about 0.49%-1.5% of our Total Dps on a 5 min parse. The way things go atm, you rarely need to use strike between combat focus, saber throw, stasis, sundering strike and zen strike, Strike is a last resort focus builder/filler. Any damage buff to strike would be a wasted buff IMO unless if concerned focus generation, if you buff strike to give us 4-5 focus per use that would transfer into more total dps than just buffing the damage of strike by a large amount overall. Even then, I feel that we could use scrutiny elsewhere concerning buffs.

 

I think we should face the Elephant in the room, Master Strike. I know some people don't like it, but any hope for a tree rework won't happen til 3.0 at the earliest to see about moving away from MS as the cornerstone of our damage.

We need to come together and just ask for a Zen Strike buff, options could be:

A.) 45% chance for Zen Strike for OH and PB

B.) 45% increase for OH, 60% chance for PB(due to longer Cooldown) for zen strike

C.) 35% chance for OH and PB, but add Slash into the list.

keep the rate limit at 9 secs for the above ( higher rate limit than other classes on their reset abilities).

 

or Ask for a passive Armor Pen in the 25%-35% range.

 

That's about as much of a quick fix we can expect til a full class/tree rework come a new story arc expansion similar to Makeb.

 

You're right of course no tree rework is coming until 3.0 and quite frankly who knows even then if any other those issues would be resolved, considering all we really received was a copy and paste job not something that actually addressed the issue.

 

Yeah its the most realistic expectation to work around the current model. Still I think we really need to push for roughly a second off the channel in addition to the proc % buff, otherwise were still going to be too mobility handicapped in PvE.

 

Also A or B. Throwing Slash into the mix isn't going to help, we can barely fit it in as it is now as it is.

Edited November 9, 2013 by ArenCordial

[Keleus]

Such nay-sayers =P Just because it's slightly difficult doesn't mean it's impossible to have or do. Our tree has been reworked quite a few times, and we're not the only class to have it done either. The Strike is easy to fit into our rotation, idk what world you live in where you have 0 downtime not to throw up at least one strike, lord knows I do. The idea behind it is to make it help feel more like a stable rotation than one of waiting for a proc then leaping at it like a rabid dog.

 

As for Master Strike, that's a given. Of course it isn't going anywhere, with or without a tree rework because BioWare loves the move entirely too much, plain and simple. However like you two have repeatedly said and I have repeatedly agreed with, among others no less, is that Zen Strike needs a buff big time, and I prefer the 45% chance for OS and 60% chance for PB when it comes down to that.

 

That said, I still think a passive armor debuff needs to happen in addition with the above, but instead of the 25-35% ranged, we should be aiming for the 10-20% range.

[Creslan]

While it isn't impossible, it is very improbable. They won't go out of their way to rework just our tree unless other classes are getting tree reworks as well, they would be burned in effigy. It would be much more efficient to just rework a talent or two and much easier for them to internally test it.

 

Strike and slash. Depending on the fight and how it goes, I do use slash. Examples from my parses are Nefra HM- strike once, slash 3 times, compared to Grob'Thok HM. I used strike once and slash 13 times in that fight as vigilance (including 22 PB, 25 OH and 25 BS), just personal examples to understand why I am resistant to a strike damage increase.

 

Zen strike, yeah, even though I've put forth 45/60% I know that won't happen, I throw that number out there since it is equal to the sage reset on their ability. I would be happy with a 45% zen strike with 9 sec rate limit, this would be equal to commandos yet still retain a higher rate limit than them.

 

Armor pen, with the same as zen strike, I started high, I said 25-35% if we don't get a change to zen strike, so no changes to zen at all, they could throw us a bone of 25-35% armor pen to satisfy us. But yeah, I would prefer 10-15% and a tweak to zen strike, even if only on white (melee) attacks.

[Creslan]

I'll throw out an idea that I posted over a year ago having to do with Riposte.

 

Riposte would change depending on what stance you are in.

Soresu- no change, keep current skill

Shien- make it proc off dots or defense. When used it does normal damage as well as puts a stack buff that increases the damage of your next MS by 5%, stacks twice.

Shii-cho- proc off of force lash or defense. When used it does normal damage as well as puts a stack buff that increases the damage of your next Force sweep by 5%. Stacks twice.

 

That way it is still useable at lower levels for the dps specs, but grows at later levels. It would need to cost 1 focus for all specs though at base or be reduced to 1 via talents in each tree.

 

EDIT: or just lose the extra MS/Sweep part and let it proc off dots and lash for 1 focus in dps stances.

Edited November 9, 2013 by Creslan

[ArenCordial]

I'll throw out an idea that I posted over a year ago having to do with Riposte.

 

Riposte would change depending on what stance you are in.

Soresu- no change, keep current skill

Shien- make it proc off dots or defense. When used it does normal damage as well as puts a stack buff that increases the damage of your next MS by 5%, stacks twice.

Shii-cho- proc off of force lash or defense. When used it does normal damage as well as puts a stack buff that increases the damage of your next Force sweep by 5%. Stacks twice.

 

That way it is still useable at lower levels for the dps specs, but grows at later levels. It would need to cost 1 focus for all specs though at base or be reduced to 1 via talents in each tree.

 

EDIT: or just lose the extra MS/Sweep part and let it proc off dots and lash for 1 focus in dps stances.

 

Personally I take it off my bar when I'm not tanking. And if it procs off MS then you'll probably see more dps spikes/dips from Zen Strike as a result, something I'd rather cut down on than enhance.

 

Random idea. What about a dot on Force Sweep? Makes us a little better with AoE phases, Sweep is free and we use it often enough.

[ArenCordial]

While it isn't impossible, it is very improbable. They won't go out of their way to rework just our tree unless other classes are getting tree reworks as well, they would be burned in effigy. It would be much more efficient to just rework a talent or two and much easier for them to internally test it.

 

Again very true. Personally I feel a lot of the feedback they gather from the top 3 threads is going into ideas for 3.0, probably why we didn't see the proc increase even though they said they were willing. It might be something we could include on a question that basically says here's all the issues so channels for a 4m class might not be the best idea, what ideas to you have to combat this.

 

After all the purpose of those threads were to open a dialogue with the combat designers.

[Hell_Kaiser_Fett]

I'll throw out an idea that I posted over a year ago having to do with Riposte.

 

Riposte would change depending on what stance you are in.

Soresu- no change, keep current skill

Shien- make it proc off dots or defense. When used it does normal damage as well as puts a stack buff that increases the damage of your next MS by 5%, stacks twice.

Shii-cho- proc off of force lash or defense. When used it does normal damage as well as puts a stack buff that increases the damage of your next Force sweep by 5%. Stacks twice.

 

That way it is still useable at lower levels for the dps specs, but grows at later levels. It would need to cost 1 focus for all specs though at base or be reduced to 1 via talents in each tree.

 

EDIT: or just lose the extra MS/Sweep part and let it proc off dots and lash for 1 focus in dps stances.

 

I like this, along with Aren's Sweep idea. If Vigilance relies on procs and dots so much, than those are the two things we need most right?

[Riivan]

@Keleus I probably wouldn't go with ether of the Veiled Fervor mechanics, but it is food for thought on maybe adding in another stacking consumable buff somewhere.

 

@ArenCordial Yes losing MS as the focus is a big gap to fill up, but I'm not too concerned with finding a replacement myself. It wouldn't come from dots for sure and it might mean that slash enters the equation and dispatch gets used more.

Edited November 10, 2013 by Riivan

[Keleus]

Personally I take it off my bar when I'm not tanking. And if it procs off MS then you'll probably see more dps spikes/dips from Zen Strike as a result, something I'd rather cut down on than enhance.

 

Random idea. What about a dot on Force Sweep? Makes us a little better with AoE phases, Sweep is free and we use it often enough.

 

This along with a change to Guard which was also Stance Dependent would go a very long way to fixing what's wrong with us. Also in Shien Form Riposte's damage would be increased by a substantial amount. That, that would make it baller, i think.

[Hornakkan]

Something came to my mind while remembering Warhammer Online sessions with my Choppa. Guardian could also get benefit of having a Raid Wide ability like I used to have on WAR :

 

<insert name> : buff that lasts 20sec and reduces the GCD of every group/raid member by 0.5 to 1 second. Skill's cooldown = 2min, requires 6 Focus.

 

 

This added to a change on MS (lowered CD and/or Zen Strike proc boost) and maybe a bump to Strike's dmg could be great for us

[Keleus]

Something came to my mind while remembering Warhammer Online sessions with my Choppa. Guardian could also get benefit of having a Raid Wide ability like I used to have on WAR :

 

<insert name> : buff that lasts 20sec and reduces the GCD of every group/raid member by 0.5 to 1 second. Skill's cooldown = 2min, requires 6 Focus.

 

 

This added to a change on MS (lowered CD and/or Zen Strike proc boost) and maybe a bump to Strike's dmg could be great for us

 

That would actually be bad because it would jack up a lot of players rotations and screw their moves up lol

[Bare-Giin]

My suggestion instead of the root would be, Gather strength 2/2: Whenever your movement is impaired, you gain a [5 / 10]% bonus to your next attack that costs rage. This effect can stack up to 3 times and lasts 20 seconds. Additionally it also reduces the cooldown of Combat focus by [7.5 / 15] seconds and causes Combat focus to grant 3 stacks of Pooled Hatred and to increasse your critical strike damage of your next attack that cost rage by [15 / 30] %.

 

With my change, Pooled Hatred should be replaced with Seething Hatred wich btw should be reworked as well and that could be Seething hatred 2/2: Whenever you kill your target, the cooldown on Force leap and Combat focus is reduced by [50 / 100]% and also tie the talent to shien form via unstoppable.

[Bare-Giin]

sry for the mix of jugg and guard terms, was copying my post form the jugg forum and missed to correct it entirely

[Keleus]

That seems a bit....Alright, but still more of a band-aid then anything else.

[Riivan]

My suggestion instead of the root would be, Gather strength 2/2: Whenever your movement is impaired, you gain a [5 / 10]% bonus to your next attack that costs rage. This effect can stack up to 3 times and lasts 20 seconds. Additionally it also reduces the cooldown of Combat focus by [7.5 / 15] seconds and causes Combat focus to grant 3 stacks of Pooled Hatred and to increasse your critical strike damage of your next attack that cost rage by [15 / 30] %.

 

With my change, Pooled Hatred should be replaced with Seething Hatred wich btw should be reworked as well and that could be Seething hatred 2/2: Whenever you kill your target, the cooldown on Force leap and Combat focus is reduced by [50 / 100]% and also tie the talent to shien form via unstoppable.

 

Heh, that's a lot of addons, procs and whatnot to one skill. Split up I could see something like one or two of those parts working.

[Keleus]

Welp, I attempted to view and post on the Sentinel Forums, and those guys are total douchebags, so **** them, nerf them into the ground for a couple of seasons XD

 

 

Seriously though I'm starting to think that BW supports the lesser intelligence of that class because every time someone tries to say something to them that's either helpful or a good argument, they flip their **** and show just how little they know about their own class, thus BW throws them a bag of bones to compensate.

 

Yes this is an angry version of me talking because I've had it up to -here- with dumb people and bad luck -__-

[banehammer]

Wow MMO players complain alot :/

 

All I can think is its gonna be fun to front load someone with dots then break out a master strike and watch their hp drain like a mo'fo ;D

 

But yes, ideally I would also love to see some PvE dps love and more utility (though I think we have decent utility compared to some classes but pitiful compared to others. All part of the never ending balance game).

[Keleus]

Wow MMO players complain alot :/

 

All I can think is its gonna be fun to front load someone with dots then break out a master strike and watch their hp drain like a mo'fo ;D

 

But yes, ideally I would also love to see some PvE dps love and more utility (though I think we have decent utility compared to some classes but pitiful compared to others. All part of the never ending balance game).

 

You have no idea.

 

 

"Never will you find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy"

[Hell_Kaiser_Fett]

I assume since we haven't heard anything from bioware, that 2.5 is just going to stiff us no matter what we suggest.

[Keleus]

Sadly this is most likely going to be the truth of the matter since BioWare is lazy and hates us. I still think it's total ******** not to fix our tree because it isn't 3.0 or some ****. Our tree has been reworked plenty of times, so has Vanguards, so I don't want that BS excuse!

[Hell_Kaiser_Fett]

Sadly this is most likely going to be the truth of the matter since BioWare is lazy and hates us. I still think it's total ******** not to fix our tree because it isn't 3.0 or some ****. Our tree has been reworked plenty of times, so has Vanguards, so I don't want that BS excuse!

 

My thought is, why do they ask us what's wrong with our class or what might fix it if they aren't even going to acknowledge the thread THEY post for us? They ask what we think is wrong as the people who play the class, we tell them. They ask us for ideas to fix it, we give them. We sit and discuss and debate and dismiss things too over the top to get down to a handful of little things to help us become competitive with other classes, and they don't even read it. We get no reply, no "hey that sounds great" or "no we it to revolve around this", we instead get ignored on their own thread. That doesn't seem right to me.

[Creslan]

I don't want a whole tree rework, but a couple of talent changes would be nice. If all we are getting come 2.5 is the root that addresses none of our PVE issues that will be extremely annoying. They could at least take the focus cost off Focused Defense, just out of fairness to other agro dump abilities. If all they got from our Q&A of guardians and juggernauts was "we need a root" then I think they need to reread those questions.

[RyderQuanTy]

So I have decide that I hate the guardian now I will rerolle a sentinel and started to look over what spec I would play and Vigilance is toatly a copy of the combat spec same as the sunder changes plays just like a sent now W T F are they doing some one tell me why the Vigilance and guardian in general have become sentinals why what was wrong with 2 different styles

 

Lets be clear in pvp there is no issue with getting in range the issue is if there are multiple ranges they can switch targets and hit you from all over when your are flat footed/ leap on cool down in pve if sents and guardian have the same range mechanics so please explain the changes