Jedi Guardian Changes - Game Update 2.5

[olcraft]

For pvp -UNRANKED- Warzones I'm currently playing Juyo Marauder, with 15% AoE dmg reduction.

I put 2 points into offhand dmg (second row carnage tree), and two into +force crit from rage tree.

So far, so good, in objective matches Juyo is still awesome for attacking a node; with good use of cooldowns, stealth to get a health pack, etc, it takes 3 derps to down you, at least. 2 if they're competent, which still means someone had to leave another node, and a third probably left too just in case you had a stealth friend with you.

I do intent to start Ataru again at some point, which I played before 2.0.

 

Shadow: my assassin is level 14 atm and feeling extremely underpowered. :-(

Needs far more abilities, and defensive cooldowns.

Regardless, most Shadows/assassins AFAIK spec either center tree for burst, or a hybrid. Pure tank shadow seems rare pvp-wise, pure 'madness' assassin is simply non-existant.

 

In vanguard I currently pvp, again unranked, mostly as assault, sometimes shield.

Tactics feels dirty, whilst assault can still burst. (and, in assault I've never felt as Braindead as playing Smash: assault doesn't have an autocrit AoE, in fact, no autocrit at all)

Assault also doesn't have 30%AoE dmg reduction.

 

 

Thank you for your advice, perhaps you should try it sometime.

 

 

I do think, at some point, the current 30% AoE reductions should be scaled down to 15%, like the reductions against DoT damage.

Yes, smash is a problem: it is a force attack, autocrit, and ignores 30% armor. The above means it can't be defended, shielded, and pierces a chunk of armor. Likewise, tri-stack flamethrower: no defense, no shield, no armor.

-> These abilities need to be looked at. Highest burst atm could be Ataru's gore'd force scream. If smash would no longer autocrit, or on a crit only reach 2/3'rds as high, would that be ok? So, if force scream hits for 9k, smash can reach 6k max.

'Hail of bolts': fine, lightning storm: not exactly imba op. Sticky grenade? Eh. Explosive surge? Cyclone slash? LooL. Future AoE specs should buff the actual AoE abilities, not create undefendable AoE bursts.

And giving full 30% AoE dmg reduction further nullifies the point of the less powerfull AoE's.

 

Oh please, I've lvled every Advanced Class to lvl 55 except shadows/assassins. By playing underpowered, underappreciated classes such as vigilance guardian, gunnery commando most of the time, i know fully well how broken smash spec is. I played as a smash juggernaut before. It was stupidly easy to put out insane dps while AOE/Single target taunting everyone like a potty mouthed 8 year old kid. As long as you are protected by a competent healer you can decimate your enemies while still putting out great protection numbers. But again i've seen a fair amound of idiots too whose dps is worse than any other decent single target dps players.

 

Also Don't compare 3 stack flamethrower to smashes, you are supposed to stun/knockback/mezz whatever you can to deny him from spitting fires at you. Once you interrupt his flamethrower it's on CD for 18 secs. Smashes ,however, can and will be used again as soon as stun/knockback runs out and still inflict its maximum damage. It cannot be interrupted whatsoever and you are forced to pop defensive CDs early. So ya smash is the most broken AOE burst in this history of all MMOs.

[NuRhoPhi]

Oh please, I've lvled every Advanced Class to lvl 55 except shadows/assassins. By playing underpowered, underappreciated classes such as vigilance guardian, gunnery commando most of the time, i know fully well how broken smash spec is. I played as a smash juggernaut before. It was stupidly easy to put out insane dps while AOE/Single target taunting everyone like a potty mouthed 8 year old kid. As long as you are protected by a competent healer you can decimate your enemies while still putting out great protection numbers. But again i've seen a fair amound of idiots too whose dps is worse than any other decent single target dps players.

 

Also Don't compare 3 stack flamethrower to smashes, you are supposed to stun/knockback/mezz whatever you can to deny him from spitting fires at you. Once you interrupt his flamethrower it's on CD for 18 secs. Smashes ,however, can and will be used again as soon as stun/knockback runs out and still inflict its maximum damage. It cannot be interrupted whatsoever and you are forced to pop defensive CDs early. So ya smash is the most broken AOE burst in this history of all MMOs.

 

I'd say gunnery commando is actually decent at the moment, if supported.

Smash-wise, Guardian 'smash' is IMO much more balanced than sentinel, due to less effective defensive cooldowns.

Both can lose however to certain comps. All melee dies vs an all ranged team typically, despite the gap closers and interrupts.

Vigilance has a disadvantage in terms of survivability not just in terms of AoE dmg, it is also that there is no combat stealth, (no secondary root/snare break, and/or cd reduction for cc break), no rebuke, no pacifiy, and of course no 'guarded by the force'.

A knockback, unremitting, enure, saber reflect and a costly focused defense only go so far. Still, the length of the list isn't enormously different, so it is in the quality of cooldowns.

Even with 30% AoE dmg reduction, overall survivability advantage remains in sentinels camp atm, if that is the only survivability change.

Despite taunts, I think most groups would benefit more from a combat or focus sentinel then still.

 

By the way: just like you can only cc a smasher so long, the same goes for tri-stack flamethrower. Thanks to hold the line/ hydraulic override, gl with that knockback too. Sure, smash is functionally imba. But again, smash can lose in arenas against a competent team. At the moment, I think I'd be happier to see a good vanguard on my team than a smasher. Even commando, in abscence of a sage is typically the focus target. But commando can electronet one enemy, insta-cc another (without giving everyone resolve) and in randoms typically survive just long enough for the rest of the team to down an enemy first. It is true that this isn't rewarded with medals though.

Commando-turret= the commando that stands still hard-casting grav round whilst two melee are in his face is going to get his team killed, sure. Special-forces-backpedal too.

[olcraft]

I'd say gunnery commando is actually decent at the moment, if supported.

Smash-wise, Guardian 'smash' is IMO much more balanced than sentinel, due to less effective defensive cooldowns.

Both can lose however to certain comps. All melee dies vs an all ranged team typically, despite the gap closers and interrupts.

Vigilance has a disadvantage in terms of survivability not just in terms of AoE dmg, it is also that there is no combat stealth, (no secondary root/snare break, and/or cd reduction for cc break), no rebuke, no pacifiy, and of course no 'guarded by the force'.

A knockback, unremitting, enure, saber reflect and a costly focused defense only go so far. Still, the length of the list isn't enormously different, so it is in the quality of cooldowns.

Even with 30% AoE dmg reduction, overall survivability advantage remains in sentinels camp atm, if that is the only survivability change.

Despite taunts, I think most groups would benefit more from a combat or focus sentinel then still.

 

By the way: just like you can only cc a smasher so long, the same goes for tri-stack flamethrower. Thanks to hold the line/ hydraulic override, gl with that knockback too. Sure, smash is functionally imba. But again, smash can lose in arenas against a competent team. At the moment, I think I'd be happier to see a good vanguard on my team than a smasher. Even commando, in abscence of a sage is typically the focus target. But commando can electronet one enemy, insta-cc another (without giving everyone resolve) and in randoms typically survive just long enough for the rest of the team to down an enemy first. It is true that this isn't rewarded with medals though.

Commando-turret= the commando that stands still hard-casting grav round whilst two melee are in his face is going to get his team killed, sure. Special-forces-backpedal too.

 

HAHAHA!Do you really think we would try to knockback a vanguard with hold the line/hydraulic override on? Knockback is only an option, if knockback doesn't work you should stun him instead. The fact is that flamethrower is easily interruptible just as master strike is easily interruptible. Smash, however, cannot be interrupted only delayed.

 

Stop stating the obvious will ya? no competent commandos will stand still while melees are jumping on him.

 

Vigilance spec has a lot of problem. Low burst damage, low survivability, low mobility, no group utility whatsoever the list goes on and on. We are not particularly good against any spec. I mean what spec you can consistently defeat with ease no matter how skilled your opponent is? lightning sorc? I can't think of anything else. It's sad really.

[olcraft]

How about modifying our gather strength talents to enable us to drain our enemy's resources such as focus, ammo, energy, heat whenever our damage is mitigated with their DCDs. If our overhead slashes are as strong as the lore says, wouldn't blocking and parrying such powerful blows make our foes exhausted over long fights?

[NuRhoPhi]

HAHAHA!Do you really think we would try to knockback a vanguard with hold the line/hydraulic override on? Knockback is only an option, if knockback doesn't work you should stun him instead. The fact is that flamethrower is easily interruptible just as master strike is easily interruptible. Smash, however, cannot be interrupted only delayed.

 

Stop stating the obvious will ya? no competent commandos will stand still while melees are jumping on him.

 

Vigilance spec has a lot of problem. Low burst damage, low survivability, low mobility, no group utility whatsoever the list goes on and on. We are not particularly good against any spec. I mean what spec you can consistently defeat with ease no matter how skilled your opponent is? lightning sorc? I can't think of anything else. It's sad really.

 

What spec can you consistenly defeat with ease no matter how skilled your opponent is?

At the moment, I don't think the game truly works as a rock-paper scissors, unless you count some classes having rock and scissors combined for good measure. Regardless, it would be a quite boring pvp game if your class is defined by 'this spec I can defeat with ease, regardless of skill'.

Vigilance can pummel dps operative into the ground normally (not exactly a credit to vigilance, I know), operative can also try to break of the fight which vigilance can't do.

Sorc healer should eventually die due to interrupts,

 

 

Against dps powertechs it depends, pyrotech for example, timing saber reflect just right can bring a nice start. Sure pyrotech will try to kite, play for survivability, so use focused defense, despite focus cost.

Advanced prototype: as you put it, interrupt the flamethrower, again kiter, lots of elemental damage etc. This one can be harder, due to movement speed bonus, longer hydraulic override etc. But I wouldn't consider it an automatic loss either.

 

Rest: pfft. Sure, vigilance isn't 'top dog', never was.

[NuRhoPhi]

How about modifying our gather strength talents to enable us to drain our enemy's resources such as focus, ammo, energy, heat whenever our damage is mitigated with their DCDs. If our overhead slashes are as strong as the lore says, wouldn't blocking and parrying such powerful blows make our foes exhausted over long fights?

 

IMO: won't happen.

1) pvp-only. How much pvp attention has this game received? I don't think such code already exists in game.

2) Very dependant on enemy spec: Take lightning sorc. Even if you drain 100 force power, it'll get regenerated back without real issue. Drain a 100 force power from a madness sorc, and he'll want to uninstall.

The specs with more troubled focus/resource generation, are hit harder.

Which means, ironically, this could be used quite effectively against a vigilance player. Focus's force sweep becomes free however, so smash players can continue without issue, scratching a slash or so from their rotation.

[NuRhoPhi]

The main PVE problems we are having right now are that:

 

Master Strike and the reset proc is EXTREMELY inconsistent.

 

We have a terrible execute (sub 30 percent phase) in PVE.

 

Somewhat range constricted (Some feel it more than most, I just want our leap to not be 10 meters, the situations where you are 9 meters from the boss are annoying as you have to split second decide whether to walk back and leap and risk the boss leaping even farther or just charge normally. 0 or even 5 meter leap would be amazing.

 

Couple of things, several people have mentioned the execute phase already etc.

Range-wise: tbh I'd sooner lower minimum range of saber throw by default, than the leap. Lowering minimum range of leap brings vigilance closer to Juyo, or even Focus. Cd reduction, maybe.

 

At the moment, regardless of survivability, vigilance might not be bringing the required (burst, or even sustained) damage to an arena to be 'desired' in a team comp.

 

Execute phase wise:

what is focus sweep doing in our rotation? Vigilance is supposed to be a single target spec I thought.

Also, lets look at what gunslinger gets in two specs: sharpshooter and dirty fighting. (By which I'm not saying gunslinger is perfect for pvp. But let's consider pve aswell)

Sharpshooter: execute cost -3 energy, crit chance +15%, (+ another 3 general ranged crit), +30% 'surge' bonus,

10% armor pen,

Dirty fighting: Damage dealt by wounding shot has a 45% chance to enable the execute.

Now, gunslinger's execute IS on a 15s cooldown instead of 6s, but still, the sharpshooters package looks quite tasty from this side of the grass.

 

Focus sweep in single target rotation+ execute envy:

Effluence changed: instead of force sweep, it makes dispatch free. (I know other posters asked for a free dispatch too).

Keening: each point beyond the first reduces lockout time by 2s, for a dispatch every 16s at most (until 30% health).

Per DoT on your target, keening produces one focus? Maybe not necessary.

 

Best wishes for the new year;

[olcraft]

IMO: won't happen.

1) pvp-only. How much pvp attention has this game received? I don't think such code already exists in game.

2) Very dependant on enemy spec: Take lightning sorc. Even if you drain 100 force power, it'll get regenerated back without real issue. Drain a 100 force power from a madness sorc, and he'll want to uninstall.

The specs with more troubled focus/resource generation, are hit harder.

Which means, ironically, this could be used quite effectively against a vigilance player. Focus's force sweep becomes free however, so smash players can continue without issue, scratching a slash or so from their rotation.

 

So? they shouldn't pop their DCDs then. They should disengage, go stealth or whatever to avoid fighting vigilance guardians, just as we are forced to whenever a smash monkey is on our tail. Whenever Vigilance guardians attack with overhead slash on a foe with any defensive cooldown on(whether the attack is dodged, deflected, parried whatever), an energy debuff is applied. It would last about x seconds(i would say 6 but whatever works) and your energy cannot regenerate(not even with abilities like adrenaline probe) for the duration. But if you continue to attack/heal(any abilities other than regular attacks) while this debuff is applied, you will lose 33%-66%-100% of your energy pool. So that they cannot effectively fight/heal while their DCDS are on. This would make vigilance spec more useful against healers and marauders(cloak of pain). If this sounds too OP, you could make it so that all healing and damage output is decreased by 50% while the debuff is on. Or you could restrict the DCDs affected only to Sabre Ward, Deflection, Evasion. Since these DCDs are the only ones capable of deflecting, dodging, parrying the Overhead Slash completely. And they are least likely to affect sorcs and commandos.

 

Strongest DCDs last for 12 seconds at most(except marauders). You can land only one overhead slash in that window. So this energy debuff would only be temporary as long as they are smart enough to restrain themselves from attacking/healing.

[lordbadtamaru]

Yeah as a single target tree, having sweep as part of our single target rotation is stupid.

 

The effluence talent should be changed to making SLASH AND DISPATCH free versus sweep. Slash hits for about the same as sweep, and sub 30 percent we get a REAL execute

[Riivan]

Have a free sweep helps with our AoE output though. Plus it turns it into a decent focus builder when you need it. I wouldn't mind seeing it boosted to reduce the cost of slash or dispatch as well.

 

As for your energy drain idea I think one of the short falls has already been mentioned. You could turn it into a slow maybe that increases the cast time of abilities. Your intention is to make the other player feel like they have been drained by slogging through a fight with us. So maybe think of other ways mechanically to evoke that feeling. I think a mechanic that added say a second onto the cast time of all abilities would achieve that aim. Something that makes abilities cost more. Etc. Interesting idea, I wouldn't want it for our class but the thought experiment is fun.

[lordbadtamaru]

Meh if I wanted aoe output I'd go focus. But we need sweep as a filler unless we have something to replace it, and slash hits just as hard so making it free plus dispatch free would solve the filler problem AND make said filler spammable.

[Riivan]

We need some AoE. You don't get much with just Cyclone Slash.

 

And you can't make every ability free haha. I'd just reduce their cost.

[lordbadtamaru]

Meh at least make dispatch free for execute reasons.

[NuRhoPhi]

We need some AoE. You don't get much with just Cyclone Slash.

 

And you can't make every ability free haha. I'd just reduce their cost.

 

Why do you need AoE?

What bonuses to AoE abilities does Juyo have? Ataru? Deception assassin? Pyrotech mercenary?

AoE CAN be something vigilance brings, but simply a non-boosted smash on a 12s cd ain't exactly getting me exited over say.. a gunslinger, commando with mortary volley, etc. Those are 'operation AoE skills'.

I'd rather have more single target dps, more single target burst, and/or more survivability. If not, if AoE should be a 'perk' of vigilance, it needs some boost in this department. (not to the level of focus, but still)

 

Slash can not be made free however: when short on focus, you would spam it instead of strike as a focus builder.

Smash was picked as our 'free' skill because it actually has a cooldown.

Besides dispatch, I'm not sure what else could be picked.

 

Edit:

You know, if we're really only annoyed with regards to tight focus management a 'vigilance' fitting partial solution could be a reduction to the cd of combat focus. Of course, focus has that already..

Edited January 2, 2014 by NuRhoPhi

[lordbadtamaru]

I have an idea. Make blade storm free as well as dispatch. dump sweep being free.

 

I notice that there are times where you have 5 focus in vig and have to choose between overhead or blade storm, and if you get lucky you can do both.

[NuRhoPhi]

I have an idea. Make blade storm free as well as dispatch. dump sweep being free.

 

I notice that there are times where you have 5 focus in vig and have to choose between overhead or blade storm, and if you get lucky you can do both.

 

Making bladestorm free instead of force sweep would already be a buff:

-bladestorm is more necesarry for the rotation (autocrit and DoT)

-bladestorm costs more focus

-bladestorm has a shorter cooldown. 9s vs 12.

-bladestorm does more damage baseline.

9 and 12 share 36 as multiple value (don't know english terms). Suppose both are used on cd, that is 3x force sweep,

3*3 focus saved= 9

or 4*4 focus saved if bladestorm is free=16.

Theme-wise, or playstyle wise I'm not sure I'd like the second most highest damage contributor to be free however, that happens to be the specs autocrit and a DoT-ing ability.

But definitely not both dispatch AND bladestorm free.

[Riivan]

You can have sweep be free and something else. It doesn't have to be an all or nothing thing given the more singular use of Sweep. I don't care what bonuses to AoE abilities Juyo, Ataru, Deception, or Pyro have. Not everything needs to be buffed to be worthwhile. It's a quality of life thing more than a major perk. And yes, slingers and commandos have our number on AoE. Hell even Sents have our number since Double Saber Throw isn't target limited. That said, Ops aren't the only thing in the game. So let me have my free sweep for when I'm doing dailies, leveling in a new expac or running through a flashpoint.

 

If you want to attach something else to the skill go for it. Don't make Slash free so it builds focus instead make it -2 +1 or -1 +1. Same with Dispatch. As for the Blade Storm idea, I entirely don't know. I'd have to think on it but I think Nu has a pretty good write up on that one.

Edited January 2, 2014 by Riivan

[lordbadtamaru]

I would be cool with a focus neutral approach.

 

But we DO need some kind of resource management fix overall, the burns don't quite line up due to resource constraints. I think force rush could be changed slightly to help with resource management, possibly making BS free.

 

Dispatch being focus nuetral could be nice though yes.

[olcraft]

i use sweep as a filler when waiting for other main attack abilities CDs. I also use it against operatives' dodge ability when i have no other force attacks to use.

 

I'd gladly sacrifice my AOE damage if it would boost up my single target damage however.

[Manweth]

As with always.

 

Fix the RNG, make it proc reliably, and almost everything gets fixed within rotation.

 

Think back to how your rotation plays out if you get 3 MS procs within 30 seconds, and how it plays out if it doesn't proc at all.

 

9 seconds of window used for MS = Skills lining up with Sundering + Combat Focus Buildups

 

No window used for MS = Bland ppatches where you scrounge focus from wherever.

 

RNG RNG RNG.

[lordbadtamaru]

Meh Manweth, analyze some of the leaderboard parses. Fixing RNG helps but not everything is fixed. A 15 second proc rate on master strike is relatively perfect. Thats almost proccing every time. With that kind of luck Guardians are still pretty low. We do need other buffs. If we change the nature of Zen Strike, we need to have focus returned to us elsewhere, as the four focus from proc is invaluable.

 

Like I said, even if we have a stable proc rate of 15 seconds between every Master Strike, we still need 100 or so dps to breach 3.6k, let alone catch up with other classes.

 

RNG fix isn't everything. Not quite.

[Manweth]

And I want that "proc EVERYTIME" rating. Simple.

 

Ours is the only RNG that doesn't proc everytime aside from Scoundrel's energy return stab-like thingy, but their entire rotation doesn't live off on that, so we need

 

"PROC EVERY GODDAMN CHANCE" ratings. Within internal cooldown, ofc. Otherwise it'd be retardedly good

[lordbadtamaru]

well i think its near impossible for it to proc at exactly every 9 seconds. The best i've ever seen is a 13 second from a friend who got REALLY lucky.

[SenatorPalpaTANG]

And I want that "proc EVERYTIME" rating. Simple.

 

Ours is the only RNG that doesn't proc everytime aside from Scoundrel's energy return stab-like thingy, but their entire rotation doesn't live off on that, so we need

 

"PROC EVERY gosh darn CHANCE" ratings. Within internal cooldown, ofc. Otherwise it'd be retardedly good

That would be nice. Whatever they decide though I hope they do keep Zen Strike as a proc rather than a static MS CD reduction (like some people suggested earlier).

 

A static CD might help with PVE, but from a PVP perspective, our burst potential would be seriously neutered. Using MS off CD, proccing a second and following up with our DoTs ticking is the only serious burst this spec brings to the table. A static CD on MS would make us even less relevant in arenas imo.

[lazerxxx]

IMO the vengeance jugg needs the following:

 

DPS

-Ravage on a effective 15sek cd through a guaranteed proc from shatter or impale(or maybe a guaranteed proc after u used both).

-Dispatch rage free and autocrit.

Survivability

-30% AOE dmg reduction

QOL

-Enraged defense resource free(remove self heal if necessary)