Jedi Guardian Changes - Game Update 2.5

[Riivan]

Design is a little tougher than you'd think. It's not as simple as copy this mechanic from this class and paste it here. That said it's going to take time. The best thing we can do is get evidence of what's wrong which we have and take our concerns to the devs. Sure we can provide an idea or two, but I wouldn't bring a mechanics rework to the table. That's a little much for a 0.X patch.

 

I think we should just keep it simple. Work with the mechanics we have to minimize Master Strike's role in our dps. That means boosting our dot damage, moving the biggest portion of Plasma Brands damage up front, maybe lengthen our Overhead/Bladestorm dots to 9 seconds, and boost Dispatch's damage. I don't mind increasing the Zen proc chance either, but I personally liked Vigi better when MS was a nice little boost to damage rather than a focal point.

Edited December 13, 2013 by Riivan

[lordbadtamaru]

the problem with shifting away from MS, is that it almost borderline requires a page one rewrite on the tree.

 

Unless we upgrade burns/dots of course.

 

I would not be surprised if they are already working on changes just they have shut up about them until 3.0. We have been just as Vocal as shadow tankss after all, and shadows took forever to get changes.

And upgrading dots, is similar to what Shadows got from upgrading attacks, it doesn't help a whole lot.

Edited December 13, 2013 by lordbadtamaru

[Riivan]

I wouldn't be surprised if they had something brewing either. I am pretty sure the team is rather small and covering all the classes rather than a designer for 1 or 2 that can focus his/her time.

 

But I think the dot damage would be a great start. Lengthening our other dots will help our sustained in highly mobile fights. There's only really 2 talents that make MS the focus. I think shifting more damage to Overhead, Plasma, and Blade Storm would be better short term. I like the free Dispatch outside of execute, but just not a fan of MS. Maybe I am just being a little too nostalgic for pre-2.0 Vigi.

 

I'm up for whatever keeps our class unique and puts us better in line with other classes.

[lordbadtamaru]

I actually don't like lengthening the dots. The problem with that is that we deal with things like PRE 2.0 plasma brand where we had to wait for the duration of dots. Cooldown of ability should match dot. In addition, Plasma and Overhead should have same cooldown, same duration burns but condensed. That simple.

 

The dots can use a buff though, in sheer damage.

[Marb]

I'm going to revisit a related point.

 

Frankly, we need more spare focus to hit abilities outside of a master strike for when we have to keep on the move, and burn damage needs to be increased for the same reason (upfront damage would have to be adjusted). We are punished too much for moving off target, changing targets, or just moving at all for whatever reason. When we aren't fighting against simple things that shouldn't be issues for melee dps in the first place (uh oh, I have to move!), we then have to contend with fickle rng when we can finally plant two feet on the ground and start a proper ability string.

 

With what is going on with the pyro spec and it's railshot reset proc, I think that shows how a reliable proc could improve the feel of the spec tenfold. If zen strike's rate limit were to be increased as well, it would have to be considered very carefully, as the cooldowns on both overhead slash and plasma brand already provide a hard rate limit along with the current zen strike proc limit. With the staggered cooldowns attached to both of our proc abilities, we should be able to proc master strike sometimes on overhead slash and almost guaranteed on plasma brand. The "sometimes" overhead slash proc should feel like a bonus, and the plasma brand proc should be anticipated if no proc was granted by overhead slash.

 

I'm a little cynical about what the combat team intents to do. They will probably look at a proc/rate limit adjustment, but to be honest, that just seems like a zero sum change without any substance. Vigilance needs a lot more then a cursory glance to get it off the ground and competitive.

Edited December 14, 2013 by Marb

[Riivan]

I actually don't like lengthening the dots. The problem with that is that we deal with things like PRE 2.0 plasma brand where we had to wait for the duration of dots. Cooldown of ability should match dot. In addition, Plasma and Overhead should have same cooldown, same duration burns but condensed. That simple.

 

The dots can use a buff though, in sheer damage.

 

That's what I meant and have been saying since well before you decided to join us haha. Lengthen our Overhead and Bladestorm dots to match the CD, not lengthen them beyond the time, though I didn't mind that myself pre-2.0.

[olcraft]

That's what I meant and have been saying since well before you decided to join us haha. Lengthen our Overhead and Bladestorm dots to match the CD, not lengthen them beyond the time, though I didn't mind that myself pre-2.0.

 

Overhead and Bladestorm dots inflict minimal damage(500 to 1000). They are liabilities too. One thing I really don't like about dots is that I cannot use my awe liberally(despite us having reduced 45seconds cooldown). I have to watch out for any sign of dots applied on my target before i decide to mezz him. Most of the time, i lose my cc opportunity because the dots are still on my target and I cannot put my enemy out of action when i really need to.

 

Also many players have been asking for burstier overhead slash and blade storm. I would gladly trade those dots off to improve my burst. They would have to increase the keening proc chance accordingly to keep our dps same however.

[lordbadtamaru]

The problem with the make us burst approach, is that we are the only guardian sustained tree. focus is the burst tree. Its kind of that simple. If we want more PVP viability most of what we can do is upgrade dots and 1 vs 1 viability.

[Riivan]

Also something that I and others have been saying in this thread for some time is to minimally increase the direct damage and substantially increase the dot damage on Overhead and Bladestorm. The awe excuse doesn't really hold much weight considering all the other tools at your disposal to incapacitate or distance yourself from a mob.

 

And like Lord said, Vigi is the primarily single target, moderately armored sustained dps spec. Focus is our aoe, bursty glass cannon spec.

[olcraft]

The problem with the make us burst approach, is that we are the only guardian sustained tree. focus is the burst tree. Its kind of that simple. If we want more PVP viability most of what we can do is upgrade dots and 1 vs 1 viability.

 

Dots are exactly what hurt our 1 vs 1 performance against other specs. If your opponent pops his DCDs immediately after you use plasma brand, you cannot mezz him for next 10 seconds at least.(due to its long 12s duration) Considering that most defensive cooldowns(Sabre Ward, Deflection, Reactive Shield) last 12 seconds, 10 seconds is way too long to effectively shut down these abilities. Awe is devastating against these defensive cooldowns if and only if your opponent is not knowledgeable enough about your class to delay their DCDs till you apply your plasma brand dots. If you add OH and BS dots to that, you really have little window to use your awe effectively against a single target.

[olcraft]

Also something that I and others have been saying in this thread for some time is to minimally increase the direct damage and substantially increase the dot damage on Overhead and Bladestorm. The awe excuse doesn't really hold much weight considering all the other tools at your disposal to incapacitate or distance yourself from a mob.

 

And like Lord said, Vigi is the primarily single target, moderately armored sustained dps spec. Focus is our aoe, bursty glass cannon spec.

 

Combat sent spec works well despite being bursty and single target.

[lordbadtamaru]

Combat sent IS bursty. it is the BURST spec. Most classes have sustained and burst, with pure dps classes getting an extra, aoe.

 

Vigilance needs sustained, NON burst dps, or FOCUS needs to be turned into sustained dps and Vigilance into burst (Not a good idea)

 

We work with what we are given.

 

Heck if we need to ask for uncleasable unmitigatable dots.

 

Not too many remember that Watchman used to be THE 1vs1 spec. Dot Specs can be the king of one versus one if built right.

[ArenCordial]

 

Not too many remember that Watchman used to be THE 1vs1 spec. Dot Specs can be the king of one versus one if built right.

 

That was more a result of the heals they received from said dots not the dots themselves though if I remember correctly. Which is why the self-heals got nerfed not the dots.

Edited December 14, 2013 by ArenCordial

[olcraft]

Combat sent IS bursty. it is the BURST spec. Most classes have sustained and burst, with pure dps classes getting an extra, aoe.

 

Vigilance needs sustained, NON burst dps, or FOCUS needs to be turned into sustained dps and Vigilance into burst (Not a good idea)

 

We work with what we are given.

 

Heck if we need to ask for uncleasable unmitigatable dots.

 

Not too many remember that Watchman used to be THE 1vs1 spec. Dot Specs can be the king of one versus one if built right.

 

Ah well watchman's dots last 6s at most. It doesn't interfere with mezzing as much.

 

I've always thought that OH slash is supposed to be the burstiest of all melee attacks. But based on my parse the burstiest hit comes from the last tick of master strike and dispatch. It is rather disappointing. I was hoping that devs replace burning purpose with "falling avalanche" to make it as bursty as dispatch or master strike.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Form_V:_Shien_/_Djem_So(Read Djem So section)

 

How about asking devs to buff guardian's parry chance? Whenever we successfully parry a blow we receive slight damage bonus just as mentioned in the Wookieepedia.

[Creslan]

Parry does nothing for us in a PVE operation setting as a DPS, would only work for PVP. Armor pen as suggested earlier , A copy of Target Lock from the Commando Assault tree, Except the armor pen would be on Overhead Slash and Master Strike, would increase OH and MS to be more bursty for PVP and PVE.

 

Add riposte to Keening and let it proc off dots for free(while I would like keening to be increased to 45% since all other execute procs are at 45% currently) then increase zen strike by 15% would be great changes til a they do complete spec overhauls probably in 3.0.

 

As for mezzing, they could make our dot's not affect sleeping/mezzed targets similar to the Concussion Talent in the Gunslinger Dirty Fighting Tree, this would allow you do dot someone and hit Awe, to let it tick away essentially.

Edited December 15, 2013 by Creslan

[lordbadtamaru]

Being Vigilance in PVP, all we really need is quasi going the watchman route, upping our consistency and dot damage and increasing our survivability. That's REALLY all we need for PVP.

 

PVE concerns have been discussed to death.

[Creslan]

Yeah, there isn't anything new that can be discussed about PVE here. There are 50 pages with ideas, discussions and concerns about guardians, mainly vigilance, but guardians in general. I feel the devs should have more than an adequate measure of how the community feels and MORE than enough ideas to go forward with any changes.

[Riivan]

Yeah, there isn't anything new that can be discussed about PVE here. There are 50 pages with ideas, discussions and concerns about guardians, mainly vigilance, but guardians in general. I feel the devs should have more than an adequate measure of how the community feels and MORE than enough ideas to go forward with any changes.

 

That said, they'll take all of that and in 3.0 our rotation will be changed and centered around riposte.

[ArenCordial]

That said, they'll take all of that and in 3.0 our rotation will be changed and centered around riposte.

 

If that's the case I'm blaming you Creslan

[AndrewanCyabos]

Would being centered around Riposte really be that bad of an idea? It would fit with the Form's lore.

 

"Form V combat was characterized by power attacks and defense immediately followed by a counter-strike. " Quoted from Wookiepedia.

 

Riposte itself is a counter-strike so it makes sense to me, just have to get the Dev's to make Riposte activate based on the burns or something. It hits hard, and if it were proccing off burns with say a 5 sec ICD (1.5 GCD+3.5 ICD) it would work. It would just need an absurdly high proc rate in order to compensate for not having MS every 15-20 seconds (you would still have it every 30) so the rotation would be PB, OS, BS, Rip (builders) and every 30 seconds PB, OS, BS, MS, Rip. That would give us a bit of "burst" IF Riposte were to have a second feature for Vigilance that gave us a bit of Armor Pen.

 

Canonically speaking, this isn't that bad of an idea. Form V users would "Create their own openings" in combat to strike. That sounds like Sunder + Riposte to me, almost perfectly. Although, I would like something a bit more "Flashy" for our primary damaging attack, Say the Animation of GS only with a Red flash(ie Burn) rather than blue. Or maybe, just maybe add a new Top Tier ability, Removing PB and attaching a hard hitting burn to Riposte, (Call the talent Searing Wounds or something) Someone mentioned one way back, Warrior slash or something. Have it enabled by using Riposte.

 

Yes, this would change the rotation quite a bit, and more to the complex side. Is that really a bad thing? We have all said we don't want this to be a faceroll spec. We have focus for that.

 

As it has been said, a lot of these changes wont happen, but the spec does pretty much need to have itself re-written from page 1. The talent tree needs to be scraped and rebuilt. That won't happen until 3.0 or later, if ever.

[lordbadtamaru]

See, I like the feel of the spec now, it just needs to be stabilized.

 

Riposte could be fun, but only as a proc off of burns, and it ignores the GCD and if made free, its practically a flat damage boost.

[Riivan]

See, I like the feel of the spec now, it just needs to be stabilized.

 

Riposte could be fun, but only as a proc off of burns, and it ignores the GCD and if made free, its practically a flat damage boost.

 

More free skills haha.

 

Entirely joking about the riposte thing. I am aware of what the lore says, but meh. I'd rather the spec be fun than follow the lore to a T. I like parts of 2.0, it was a step in the right direction, but just hasn't scaled well and the warts are showing.

[lordbadtamaru]

2.0 improved many things about the spec, but knocked off the feel a bit. We used to feel more unique. I'd rather restore SOME of that uniquity (if thats a word -_-)

[olcraft]

Haven't seen Anakin skywalker using riposte much. He's more about brutally battering away at his enemies and not giving them a chance to attack. My vigilance guardian......... well his animations and damage look Meh.....

[NuRhoPhi]

The problem with the make us burst approach, is that we are the only guardian sustained tree. focus is the burst tree. Its kind of that simple. If we want more PVP viability most of what we can do is upgrade dots and 1 vs 1 viability.

 

I do not agree:

Focus is not just 'the burst tree'. Focus offers a secondary 10m leap while rooted, and snares on both leaps, armor pen for everything,..

Control abilities, which play little role in bossfights are precisely important in pvp, and IMO a major contributor to the view of 'smash'.

Smash has:

AoE burst

Simple/forgiving rotation as so much is tied to smash

unescapability: root, snared.. rooted, snared etc.

 

So, vigilance CAN become more like carnage, in fact carnage is arguable less kiteable than vigilance: deadly throw roots, the option to give +80% run speed, a root break from force camo, and maintainable +6% def/damage taken, and 30% AoE dmg reduction. (considering vigi has 4% dr, carnage takes 32% less damage from Force in Balance I think? Focus sentinel takes 35% less.)

 

--> Give vigilance similar (if still slightly less) burst (if not 'automatic' like the 100%armor pen autocrit +30%surge force scream, or without a zen/berserk mechanic), but do not give a 10m ranged root on short cooldown, a root break, ..

 

Instead, give vigilance 15% dmg reduction from DoT abilities (just to be different), and make masterstrike and/or bladestorm snare the target for 3s.

Dmg reduction while stunned could also be very nice; or, a system like tactics tree vanguard: getting attacked reduces the cooldown of saber ward, or standard reduce the cooldown of saberward to 2m30s. Everytime your movement is impaired, the cooldown of your cc breaker is reduced by 1.5s?

 

In this thread, I also noticed the question to seperate focused defense from the aggro drop, and make it 15% dmg reduction for all.

I disagree.

I agree to reduce/remove the cost; but tanky guardian already has arguably the best cooldown suite.

Adding focused defense to tanky guardian as a 'downside less' cooldown with simply the healing would be absolutely unfair compared to vanguard tank. Adding the 15% damage reduction would be hilarious.