Jedi Guardian Changes - Game Update 2.5

[lordbadtamaru]

Long is good. It stabilizes our rng, so we can see how we do on "average." We aren't the only class that needs a buff though, not by a long shot.

[Manweth]

I should start by clarifying. When I said raptus and grob is a joke, I meant that. Meaning they are jokes you laugh at and then decimate. They are easier than easy. And I will bet good money that they will be certifiable pain in the backside when NiM comes. Coz that's usually how it goes.

 

We don't need a cleanse. Giving everyone a cleanse is a cheap cop out that MMOs stopped doing with Everquest. This limits the "need for variety" that I was speaking about earlier. If you give everyone a cleanse, you are taking a valuable tool away from TK sages and Commando DPSers. That's their job, to emergency offheal, bubble, kolto bomb, and yes, cleanse.

 

A big NOOOOOOooooooooooooooooooooooooo for cleanse from me.

 

As for PUG rejection, you don't PUG with your mainchar except for commendation 16man SMs. Everyone knows that. Coz a PUG usually doesn't guard me, and voila! An instant aggro maniac Vigilance on the premises gentlemen! Or a TK sage or an assault commando that's simply uncontrollable. YOu don't PUG. YOu find a good raiding endgame guild for HMs and NiMs. That's the correct way.

 

Now here is the really dirty little secret:

 

Have you ever seen a 4 slinger NiMclearing guild run? Ever?

 

The answer correlates to why World First killers on US have Vengeance Juggs in them. Coz at the end of the day, 4 ppl pulling 3.5k+ doesn't mean a single penny when ***** hits the fan. That's when they cry for Sage to rez/bubble/offheal, to guardian to taunt an add or boss itself, to scoundrel to stealth rez.

 

Every sane raider and their mothers should know that you NEVER take an all RDPS grp. Ever. And when you go in with the ideal 2 MDPS - 2RDPS setup ( 8man), you don't want both melee to be sents, coz you can't even Inspiration-chain anymore! That second one is free folks.

 

That's where you are gonna be fighting for. That spot is why you train endlessly so you can overtake sentinels and make the raid leader simply go "take him and guard him, and we'll make through this."

 

Now for the other thing. The 3.476 Kishekzun pulled ( I'm gonna wait till I get dread forged implants and earpieces till I parse endlessly) is what we Vigis call a "lucky parse." Meaning you get an average 15-sec- Zen Strike proc average. Zen Strike procs averagely around 20 seconds overall, and some really unlucky parses make it go to 25-sec-average.

 

No other class has this issue. That's why we have been crying for MS cooldown for vigilance to simply become 15ish, OR fix the RNG so we get that 15-second-average-procrating at ALL times.

 

BTW: It's not that a lot of classes need a buff, it's just that we need a buff, and Slingers need a HUUUUUGEEE Nerf. Maniacs are now at 4.4k. And counting.

Edited December 12, 2013 by Manweth

[lordbadtamaru]

If there is a slinger that is doing 4.4, link it.

 

This isn't my first time playing vigi. Kisheksun had a 15 second master strike. If we had a standard cooldown on Ms, that would be basically what we would be getting, more or less. THAT IS AMAZING.

 

All best parses are a combination of lucky crits and procs, its just we get the ****** end of the stick with having to deal with more than just crits for rng.

 

The solution to class balance is not nerf other classes. Its buff everyone up to the top.

[lordbadtamaru]

That World First, had a War Hero geared Vigilance/Veng I believe.

 

And stacking endless ranged is bad, yes. you deal with certain mechanics.

 

At this point, we need rng buffs, and our execute. Our execute, is FAR from adequate. We have one of the worst executes in game, (on the training dummy) and if you call the boss execute potent (which it is if your getting hit by aoe damage) remember, other classes gain advantages from incoming damage, IE sentinels and their centering mechanics.

 

At the end of the day, if we don't meet dps barriers, utility is irrelevant.

[SwordEmpire]

If there is a slinger that is doing 4.4, link it.

 

This isn't my first time playing vigi. Kisheksun had a 15 second master strike. If we had a standard cooldown on Ms, that would be basically what we would be getting, more or less. THAT IS AMAZING.

 

All best parses are a combination of lucky crits and procs, its just we get the ****** end of the stick with having to deal with more than just crits for rng.

 

The solution to class balance is not nerf other classes. Its buff everyone up to the top.

 

http://www.torparse.com/a/514435/27

Kuroyukihime who pulled 4385 dps.

[lordbadtamaru]

That parse does not count.

 

The reason is, it is Sabatuer spec. The majority of that damage comes from scatter bombs. Scatterbombs is a trail aoe that comes from the slinger roll. Basically, when rolling, 5 meters behind you are all covered with scatter bombs. Because the dummy is right in front of a wall, when you roll you leave a trail of bombs RIGHT ON TOP of the dummy. This leads to artificially inflated dps.

 

When people think that a certain class or spec is OP, please consider and actually learn about the spec. I'm a firm believer in you cannot say a class is truly overpowered unless you have played the class yourself. Simple as that.

[SwordEmpire]

That parse does not count.

 

The reason is, it is Sabatuer spec. The majority of that damage comes from scatter bombs. Scatterbombs is a trail aoe that comes from the slinger roll. Basically, when rolling, 5 meters behind you are all covered with scatter bombs. Because the dummy is right in front of a wall, when you roll you leave a trail of bombs RIGHT ON TOP of the dummy. This leads to artificially inflated dps.

 

When people think that a certain class or spec is OP, please consider and actually learn about the spec. I'm a firm believer in you cannot say a class is truly overpowered unless you have played the class yourself. Simple as that.

 

oh, I fully well know that. fact of the matter was that you asked for the parse someone else mentioned and I linked it. also, the whole thing with the scatter bomb rolls is also viable in fights where the boss has a large hit box. heck, the slingers/snipers who parsed over 4k dps on the boss fights in hm dp and df have scatter bombs and flyby accounting for 40-50% of their overall damage. just look at all the ones pewpewthethird of hatred is leading on.

[lordbadtamaru]

That post wasn't neccesarily directed towards you I was just curious where Manweth was getting 4.4k slingers from.

 

Its a situational spec. I'd love to see what a fair parse in it would look like.

[Riivan]

The solution to class balance is not nerf other classes. Its buff everyone up to the top.

 

The way you do balance isn't to just move everyone up to the highest parsing class. You create a baseline that you want everyone to be at and you make everyone within 5% of that. If you move everyone up to where Slingers are you might as well just make every NiM DP/DF boss a chest that you run up to and loot haha. The top needs to be brought down and the bottom needs to be brought up.

[Creslan]

You can't just make Master Strike 15 sec cooldown either and call it a day, You need to re-evaluate our focus management at that point, you would be losing focus over time w/o a zen strike proc, we need that 3 focus return currently to maintain our damage with zen strike, doesnt sound like much, but it adds up.

 

You would need to drop plasma to a 4 focus ability, Overhead to a 3 focus ability and make Blade Storm cost 2. This along with a 15 sec Master strike would fix 2 issues, RNG and Focus management. Add a crit multiplier to blade storm and and our dots, and some passive armor pen (10-20%) on melee attacks(white damage). To boost execution phase, add a 30% increase to DOT damage on targets below 30%.

 

The above may be overkill, testing would be needed to see how it would really affect our damage. The MS at 15 and focus changes would be a wash honestly, what you can aquire now with super lucky RNG, those 2 changes would make it standard. We would still be behind the parse atm, at about 3400. The other changes, crit multiplier on dots and Blade storm, the passive armor pen, would probably only boost us up about 100--150 max dps if that. Tack on the dot crit damage increase on execution and we would still be behind sentinels on the dummy, but the gap would be alot narrower. So we would lose the RNG, gain about 150 dps. I don't think that's OP still, considering the 4k parses from Non-gimmick specs (IE Pyro Mercs, not sab gunslingers)

Edited December 12, 2013 by Creslan

[lordbadtamaru]

My answer to that, is make force rush also make blade storm free. Bam. Focus management, easy, as its a 4 focus ability, in Vigi, its -4+1, so making it free makes it give is 1 focus. If we include an autocrit execute and remove keening, make the execute free, meaning it actually gives us 1 focus.

 

Focus management, execute, zen strike, all easier, and done.

[NuRhoPhi]

Firstly:

every guardian on this forum wants either a 'fixed cooldown' or a OS/Plasma brand reduce cooldown by X system.

Noted. To be forwarded to developers me thinks.

 

Plasma brand: indeed, very costly move. However, instead of lowering the cost: add to vigilance: gives plasma brand a 33-66-100% chance of returning one extra focus. This means you still need to have 5 focus to use the ability in the first place.

 

Then: Force Rush:

OS/Plasma Brand and Dispatch have a 50-100% chance to increase crit chance of your next Blade storm or dispatch by 15-30%. Stacks up to two times, each stack lowers the focus cost by 1

(So, that would be, at 2 stacks, +60% crit chance. But it makes dispatch very usable in execute phases: Suppose I go OS, Plasma brand, dispatch: Dispatch gets -2 focus cost. And one focus is refunded due to Shien (effectively free dispatch). And Dispatch gives +30% crit to my next bladestorm, and -1 focus cost too :-) )

This is the sort of thing I'd like to see, I do realise it would affect optimum rotation etc.

Note that you'd be running around with at least 20% crit chance from gear, giving a 80-85% crit.

For bladestorm, with crit gear, you can get 25 ish crit chance, then 6% crit to force from focus tree, which would give

a crit chance of 91% at two stacks. But it would not be 'autocrit'.

 

Keeping crit bonus for one stack at 50% and allowing dispatch to consume and create stacks would lead to a very sick execute phase I suspect.

 

 

Execute-phase rotation:

Blade storm: 9s cooldown (specced)

Dispatch: 6 second

Overhead slash: 9seconds,

Plasma brand: 12 seconds

Master Strike cooldown-to-be: about 15 seconds.

 

Suppose I go: (build focus, then)

Masterstrike 1.5-3

Overhead Slash 4.5

Plasma brand 6

Dispatch 7.5

Blade Storm 9

Two focus builders, Then overhead slash, dispatch, Masterstrike euh, Blade Storm, Plasma brand..

 

OS-PB-Dispatch-Blade Storm would cost:

4-1 + 5-2 +1-1 +3-1 = 8 focus.

At the moment, it costs 4-1 5-1 3-1 4-1= 12 focus. Hmmpf, maybe leave plasma brand cost as is.

Basically, 'force rush' would become a much better talent when below 30% due to Dispatch becoming available often at reduced cost, increased crit chance, and in turn reducing cost and increasing crit chance of Blade storm.

This would replace any silly 'your bleeds do 30% more damage when target is below 30% health'.

Guardian HAS an execute. I say we use it in the execute phase.

Focus' execute technically still might hit harder due to +15% surge and 30% armor pen.

Edited December 12, 2013 by NuRhoPhi

[SwordEmpire]

Firstly:

every guardian on this forum wants either a 'fixed cooldown' or a OS/Plasma brand reduce cooldown by X system.

Noted. To be forwarded to developers me thinks.

 

Plasma brand: indeed, very costly move. However, instead of lowering the cost: add to vigilance: gives plasma brand a 33-66-100% chance of returning one extra focus. This means you still need to have 5 focus to use the ability in the first place.

 

Then: Force Rush:

OS/Plasma Brand and Dispatch have a 50-100% chance to increase crit chance of your next Blade storm or dispatch by 15-30%. Stacks up to two times, each stack lowers the focus cost by 1

(So, that would be, at 2 stacks, +60% crit chance. But it makes dispatch very usable in execute phases: Suppose I go OS, Plasma brand, dispatch: Dispatch gets -2 focus cost. And one focus is refunded due to Shien (effectively free dispatch). And Dispatch gives +30% crit to my next bladestorm, and -1 focus cost too :-) )

This is the sort of thing I'd like to see, I do realise it would affect optimum rotation etc.

Note that you'd be running around with at least 20% crit chance from gear, giving a 80-85% crit.

For bladestorm, with crit gear, you can get 25 ish crit chance, then 6% crit to force from focus tree, which would give

a crit chance of 91% at two stacks. But it would not be 'autocrit'.

 

Keeping crit bonus for one stack at 50% and allowing dispatch to consume and create stacks would lead to a very sick execute phase I suspect.

 

 

Execute-phase rotation:

Blade storm: 9s cooldown (specced)

Dispatch: 6 second

Overhead slash: 9seconds,

Plasma brand: 12 seconds

Master Strike cooldown-to-be: about 15 seconds.

 

Suppose I go: (build focus, then)

Masterstrike 1.5-3

Overhead Slash 4.5

Plasma brand 6

Dispatch 7.5

Blade Storm 9

Two focus builders, Then overhead slash, dispatch, Masterstrike euh, Blade Storm, Plasma brand..

 

OS-PB-Dispatch-Blade Storm would cost:

4-1 + 5-2 +1-1 +3-1 = 8 focus.

At the moment, it costs 4-1 5-1 3-1 4-1= 12 focus. Hmmpf, maybe leave plasma brand cost as is.

Basically, 'force rush' would become a much better talent when below 30% due to Dispatch becoming available often at reduced cost, increased crit chance, and in turn reducing cost and increasing crit chance of Blade storm.

This would replace any silly 'your bleeds do 30% more damage when target is below 30% health'.

Guardian HAS an execute. I say we use it in the execute phase.

Focus' execute technically still might hit harder due to +15% surge and 30% armor pen.

 

While I personally love this idea, it does strike me as being very similar to the pre 2.0 force rush mechanic. something I have always heard, and correct me if I am wrong, is that it is easier to get something changed then reverted back. what is the ballpark melee crit chance most vigilance guardians run at? Just as an estimate I am gonna say anywhere between 20-25%. at two stacks of force rush we would have anywhere between an 80-85% crit chance on dispatch, at a reduced cost, and have the possibility to work with keening to be able to be used before execute phase. seeing as how they took auto crit dispatches away from us, I dont think they would go for this, and if they did, most other classes would be crying nerf within the week.maybe it will have a better chance seeing as it would be charged based instead of time based, but idk. again, I personally like the idea, I just dont think they would go for it.

[lordbadtamaru]

The one thing I'd be afraid of is Vigilance Guardians stacking the same amount of crit shadows just to ensure procs.

 

This does complicate the rotation semi needlessly. However, I DO like Force Rush being an autocrit dispatch once again, but i still have one opinion, why do we even need stacks for force rush? Why not just keep it a rolling buff? It's simpler, and more fun, and helps mobility!

 

Also, if talented properly you get ANOTHER 7.5 percent crit chance For Dispatch/Slash and 6 percent for force attacks. Make force rush diminish the cost of Blade Storm/Dispatch by 2 focus and increase the crit chance of Blade storm by 35/70, and Dispatch by 30/60. Make the buff roll.

 

Keening will be changed into a burn damage increase talent or something, and condense the tree overall, maybe even tie the root we got to keening, simply cause a 46 point tree is ridiculous.

[lordbadtamaru]

Also, the main reason why we lost autocrit dispatch, is the dummy parse heroes were whinging about not doing as much dps as sentinels, even though we had the best execute in the game and were only 200 dps behind ON THE DUMMY. In actual execute phase i bet we would have been within 100 dps, a reasonable gap.

 

It was NOT due to Overpoweredness. What we got in 2.0 was to be ideal on a dummy, even though our dps is ****.

[lordbadtamaru]

Also, I was thinking

 

For the ultimate execute, if we applied the Overhead Slash and Plasma Brand create stacks of a buff that reduce master strike to 15 second cool down, why not make our execute EVEN MORE potent?

 

what if dispatch gave a buff called, Zen Executioner, that reduced it by ANOTHER 5 seconds, giving us a 10 second cool down at 30 percent, ASSUMING keening's dispatch effects ARE REMOVED.

 

Keening Dispatch is fluff damage. Having a mega execute dispatch and consistency is FAR better.

[Riivan]

Your suggestions are starting to push us more towards overpowered and quite frankly a very boring rotation. Don't get me wrong I want to do dps, but not at the expense of an interesting rotation. If I wanted easy mode I'd go Commando.

[Manweth]

Riivan is right. Too complicated and too over the top changes are being proposed.

 

They'll never do that kinda rework on a .x numbered patch. That can only happen with a full exp. pack.

 

So aim for simple and basic increase. Fixed cooldown on MS or MUCH more consistent RNG.

 

OR

 

HIGHLY increased DoT damage.

 

Everything else is simply too much work to do for them in a patch.

[lordbadtamaru]

simply following the train of thought.

 

Although it IS unrealistic to expect crazy changes.

 

Frankly, an RNG change and some kind of change that makes it possible to actually use the execute is all I want.

 

We have one of the worst executes in the game and not enough dps to justify it.

Edited December 13, 2013 by lordbadtamaru

[SwordEmpire]

Riivan is right. Too complicated and too over the top changes are being proposed.

 

They'll never do that kinda rework on a .x numbered patch. That can only happen with a full exp. pack.

 

So aim for simple and basic increase. Fixed cooldown on MS or MUCH more consistent RNG.

 

OR

 

HIGHLY increased DoT damage.

 

Everything else is simply too much work to do for them in a patch.

 

lol, if we cant expect much from a .x patch and all we got in a full blown balance patch was a root, i dont even think we should expect an answer for our questions.

Edited December 13, 2013 by SwordEmpire

[NuRhoPhi]

Riivan is right. Too complicated and too over the top changes are being proposed.

 

They'll never do that kinda rework on a .x numbered patch. That can only happen with a full exp. pack.

 

So aim for simple and basic increase. Fixed cooldown on MS or MUCH more consistent RNG.

 

OR

 

HIGHLY increased DoT damage.

 

Everything else is simply too much work to do for them in a patch.

 

Euhm.. just how much work do you think it takes to change in the code for vigilance and vengeance the working and wording of zen strike to

'reduces cooldown of masterstrike by X seconds'

I think I would be fine with a masterstrike cooldown of 18s. We should not have a massive reliance on a melee channel, though it should remain important and consistent.

 

And the force rush to, as mentioned:

OS/Plasma brand have a 50-100%chance to increase crit chance of next dispatch/blade storm by 15-30%, and reduce cost by 1. Stacks up to two times.

 

Don't tell me a decent programmer can't make that change in ONE day. Otherwise, they're programming in assembly or something?

 

Balance wise: YES, you can get the +7.5 crit talent, get two stacks, and get pretty close to an autocrit. BUT it still isn't one. (you would need 32.5 melee crit chance, plus the 7.5 talent, and two stacks to reach 100%)

Moreover, if you have done that, dispatch will build one stack, still giving bladestorm a +30% crit chance, but not an autocrit by a long shot. So you LOSE the autocrit for bladestorm.

More-over: as mentioned: since 'focus' gets +9% dmg after using smash, 30% armor pen, and 15% surge, a crit from focus with dispatch will hit harder. Assuming 70% surge native, 20% armor target, focus dispatch crit hits

17% higher. If a crit in vigilance hits for 8k damage, focus hits at 9.36k.

And remember, with current tree design, vigilance should parse higher.

 

Execute time: 6s cd for dispatch.

9 bladestorm

9 overhead slash

12 plasma brand.

Try making that into a rotation. 6s cd: means I use dispatch, three abilities later, again.

 

-OS

-Di (1 stack/two stack depending on PB)

-BS (1 stack)

-fill

-PB

-Di (1 stack)

-OS

-fill

-BS (2 stack)

-Di (zero stack.. unless you switch places and let BS's DoT fall of)

-fill

-OS

-PB

-Di (two stacks, one stack wasted; damn, unless again you switch PB and dispatch here?)

-BS (one stack)

 

Presuming a dispatch every 9s, even in execute, is a much easier rotation, and leaves room for masterstrike.

In that case, you would go OS-Dispatch-Blade Storm (optional filler in between, occasional plasma brand between OS and dispatch).

Plasma brand has a 12s cooldown, so not every dispatch would be at 2 stacks either.

 

I'd say, with an fixed cooldown for masterstrike, managing bleeds, focus and these stacks would be what the specs damage output is all about.

Sure, not the simplest rotation. But that is kinda the whole point... the stacks come with 100% certainty, the cooldowns come with 100% certainty, it is only the crit that is not guaranteed.

If you want really easy dps, roll a gunslinger or go focus.

[Manweth]

You? The point? Totally missed it dude.

 

Programming is easy. Balance is harder.

 

But most importantly, every spec out there will RIGHTFULLY cry out since vigilance is getting such an extensive rework and fundamental change while other classes are getting simple white dmg. increases or uncleansable dots.

 

They said that changes will come out small and over time, and an extensive "balance patch" was not going to happen unless it was a level cap increase with new skills.

 

Corporate accountability prohibits them from changing anyone so extensively. Theshadow tank changes they rolled out was pushing on that barrier, and that was just a rework of a single mechanic.

 

What you guys are saying is... simply won't happen.

 

And as long as majority of GRD forum users are pushing for unrealistic demands, our "lovely" devs will never see beyond the fluff , thus never modifying the RNG or increasing DoTs.

 

Accept it already. Unless 3.0 comes out (May 2014, according to rumors), you won't get those changes. So settle for increases that will tide us over in upcoming Dread NiM modes.

 

Or go to certain pvp sorc and merc forums and see how they want Vigi / Veng. to be nerfed such that we get a 2min Master Strike cooldown with no root& no unshakeable and no Zen strike.

 

Because we failed to make our pleas heard correctly, we got stuck with a stupid root, which now is becoming the cause of us getting nerfed even further. Wake up.

Edited December 13, 2013 by Manweth

[NuRhoPhi]

You? The point? Totally missed it dude.

 

Programming is easy. Balance is harder.

 

But most importantly, every spec out there will RIGHTFULLY cry out since vigilance is getting such an extensive rework and fundamental change while other classes are getting simple white dmg. increases or uncleansable dots.

 

What the hell is the point of a test server then? Balance wise, don't they have a computer tool to automatically generate the optimum rotation? (Heh, excel solver with a 'maximise dps' with some effort could probably dictate the optimum rotation, and spit out theoretical dps too) I also do not consider this an 'extensive rework' tbh.

With that lovely quote of 'small changes only', you're not really touching class balance for pve or pvp until.. May 2014? After the supposed 2.4 pvp patch, then the 2.5 balance patch. Laaawl.

Holy ****... heaven forbid that vigilance becomes competitive in pvp with focus, and competitive with sentinel for operations.

Guess I'll go play whoosh miiieeuw pewpewpew around some asteroids .

My subscription runs out this month. Will see what I do.

 

Honestly, if class balance is screwed up anyway, in my view it is completely fine to screw up class balance again, overpowering a new spec, as long as you are 'oscillating' towards balance. Not fine is doing nothing for months and months, or calling the 2.5 patch the 'balance patch'. Only spec truely adressed was shadow tank.

[lordbadtamaru]

If they had a script to determine optimum rotation, its not working well, considering so many viable hybrid specs exist that they never even thought of. They RELY on people like KBN and dipstik to figure out most of their trash.

[Manweth]

There is a simulation program that runs on an algorithm, that I believe that they use....

 

Which doesn't work AT ALL for RNG specs.

 

Because frankly, the algorithm works out as if the Zen Strike procs exactly after each internal proc timer of 13 seconds, and burns working all the time, and MS cast exactly ever 13 seconds.

 

IF that were to happen, we would have 3.5-3.6k dps, all well, but we all know that never happens.

 

Frankly, that was the reason why they thought Infilt. shadows were fine for the longest time.

 

Anyone with a cursory programming background knows that the algorithm they use sucks.

 

As for your thinking of "it's not extensive rework" or " make it lean towards balance but make one spec overpowered"....

 

Well. This is a game company that runs on a projected profit-loss margin. Neither the devs nor the producers can afford to be so gallant with their asset, i.e. the game itself.

 

In the long run, losing a few like you is an acceptable move as long as they sidestep the bad rep they'd get from doing what you suggest and face a Ragestorm.

 

Acceptable losses.

 

Welcome to the Game Industry. Where weak die and profits matter above all.

Edited December 13, 2013 by Manweth