Jedi Guardian Changes - Game Update 2.5

[volander]

And how can non-Englsh speakin foreigners as yew said 'mastr' this language on a daili basis? That made no sense.

 

I teach English playing TOR. And already read chat and forum as a native language and very well understand your gibberish. At first it was funny but now ... I think joke dragged on.

 

on the subject

It seems to me that we have gone too far in our fantasies. Devs will never go to such a big change. And I think we need to go back to probleme and try to fix them first. I'll write briefly what problems I see:

- strongest dependence on randomness

- frequent inability to deal full damage to the core ability

- very limited utilities in raid

Also, I have heard from many about resourse menegment problem and that the Vig/Veng easily kite. But since I mostly solo pvp I do not see the problem as a whole and can not be judged objectively. By this I beg to supplement or correct the abstracts for completeness.

Each of our proposal should address only one problem from the list that will be key to the inability to perform their class role. For example:

1 RNG problem - raise the chance to proc / or lover cooldown / or ability XX reduces the active cooldown by 5(any other) seconds / or...

2 MS fix - root / or reduce of channeling / or ...

3 Utilities - offensive guard / or long term buff / or short burst buff on long cooldown abilitys / or ...

etc

So, we need to write out the problem and gather all the ways of their solutions in one place, otherwise the topic turned into a garbage dump unrealizable fantasies.

By the way I like the idea of ​​a offensive guard. And I'd add that for that would have parity with Sent/Mara, I think we lack a short group buff. Like this: When activated, restores 50% of resources reduces all active cooldowns by 5 second and increasing regeneration resources by 25% over the next 6 seconds.

 

ps many apologies for my English, I'm not a bad translate, but grammar still at school level:rolleyes:

[JonnyMadDog]

Don't quite get the last comment if it's a insult or not, am not joking/troln, not gibbrish either.

 

Anyways, rly think it's hi time devs respond to 23 pages of feedback to this thread, at least acknoledge they've read it and may implement some of these changes later.

[Hell_Kaiser_Fett]

What about this for Vigilance/Vengeance:

 

:csw_bluesaber:Guardian's Resolve/Warrior's Might:wea_03: (respectively)

2 points

Grants all players within 10 meters (15 seemed like too much) a 5%/10% damage increase and a 5%/10% damage reduction, raising the determination of all nearby allies for 30 seconds. Targets must remain within 10 meters during the duration to keep the buffs. Requires Shien form. Cooldown 2 minutes.

 

This way, with the 10-15 meter limit, it doesn't buff the whole raid group, only those nearby, so its not op. And with the restriction to stay within the limit, there's no way to buff the whole group and then let them all fan out, again preventing it from being op. 2 minute cooldown prevents it from being spammed, but allows it to be used more than just once during a boss battle, possibly twice depending on the boss.

 

We could probably just do away with Preparation, since its kind of just a meh skill anyways, instead of adding another skill to the tree and clogging it up.

 

But, I'm just a player with an idea, so I've done my part. It's up to the devs to decide.

Edited November 5, 2013 by Hell_Kaiser_Fett

[K_osss]

We don't need any more defensive abilities. We don't need heals. We don't need utility that revolves around those 2 skills. We don't need to become single saber Sents or a heavy armor support class.

 

We need a DPS increase. There have been pages and pages of ideas about what they could do. I feel they should keep it simple for the time being, leave the extensive tuning for the future. Here is a small list of things that would help our dps.

 

1.) Dot % damage increase

2.) 10-15% armor pen passive or 25-35% armor pen for next MS.

3.) Zen strike to 45%, keep the rate limit currently.

4.) Flat damage increase either from stance or skill bases increase.

5.) Offensive Guard, utility skill

6.) Focused Defense force cost removed

 

That is just a small sample of the ideas put forth by many people in this thread. I would be happy with any 2 from the list, 3 maybe (depending on which 3), but anymore than that would be asking for TOO much. I think that is what we as a community need to realize, if we go asking for 27 different things and each more outlandish than the next, we'll probably never get the attention we need from the devs.

 

I agree that asking for too much will net you nothing. 1 or 2 of the above is reasonable and would help improve dps. I'm no expert on Guardian dps or the gap between them and other melee dps such as Sentinels. But Bioware wants Guardians to be within 5% of pure dps classes right? So I think guardians need another 5-10% and they'll be golden. That's no a drastic overhaul of the class. That's a tweak here and a tweak there. The list above presents so good ideas. Personally I like the changes to the combat flow and a slight shortening up of the dot durations but keeping the damage.

[Keleus]

BioWare needs to pull their head out of their *** if that's their honest thought on the subject. A class should do what the class user chooses to spec in to, not what the class can do as a whole. If anything, if you want to get into the nit and grit of it, Sentinels should have the exact same DPS as Guardians but yield more utility to help bolster the raid whereas the guardian yields more more utility to help the group survive.

 

Example: The sentinel uses Inspiration to buff the healing and damage done by the raid's members, the guardian would pop a skill to grant a shield to all the raid to soak up a very healthy amount of damage or make sure the main tank/off tank doesn't get hit nearly as hard. Similar would go for Commando/Gunslinger and Sage/shadow and whatever else.

 

This whole Pure DPS Class BS needs to go because you don't see a Pure Tank or Pure Heals class do you? Didn't think so.

 

Moving on however the majority of the people on this forum are not only correct but agree in honest harmony that 4 things need to happen to our class:

 

1) Plasmabrand/DoT's need to be upped in damage

2) Master Strike needs to be made to proc more if it's going to be our cornerstone ability.

3) Armor Penetration needs to be added to us and not just from a single debuff. (Albeit, this one we can sacrifice for the greater good if it means getting the others)

4) A new Utility Skill that actually makes us useful for our Raid Group.

[Riivan]

There isn't a hybrid tax really. I mean there is somewhat just because of the way things have worked out. The 5% damage number that people toss around isn't the range of hybrid to pure, but rather the deviation between all dps classes. If slingers were doing 8% more damage than a sent they would be knocked down 3 or the sents brought up 3. Just so happens that some of the hybrid classes are a little low.

[UglyStik]

Focused defense should automatically have the 15% damage reduction if they want it to cost so much focus. If it doesn't automatically have it, then it should be free because right now it is a waste of a keybind unless you're Vigilance. I played quite a bit of both DPS specs...Vigilance is my favorite but it needs some love.

 

Plasma Brand is a good idea for a skill but the dot is too weak for how long the dot goes on for. Focus is the easier for a bunch of reasons but look at force exhaustion. The dot is three seconds long and does a max of 3,558 total damage(1,186 per second) while Plasma Brand is 12 seconds long and does a max of 3973 total damage(331.08 per second).

 

I would probably run Vigilance 24/7 if they fixed Plasma Brand to have more use than to just proc Master Strike. Theoretically Focus should have more utility(ranged skills, slows, etc) while Vigilance is the melee spec and has more survivability. Making master strike root targets is nice and all but a half *** fix. Instead of theoretical fixes what are they actually changing in this giant update?

[Keleus]

Just the root, that's it, that's why we're all flipping balls at BW for being a bunch of jack asses.

 

 

Also, I couldn't agree more with both of you.

[Creslan]

The real problem is Bioware doesn't test their classes how the players play them. They run their program and go by those metrics. The issue is, what if we as players don't play the same way the computer does? It's been mentioned by Bioware once already, in the smuggler thread about how saboteur roll bombs weren't meant to be used offensively so that damage wasn't part of their metrics for class balance. It goes to show that Bioware doesn't test the player rotations in their DPS metrics.

 

And as they sit there numbers keep going up and up. Gunslingers at around 3700, Vanguards at around 3300-3400 in their hybrid spec(that is an amazing spec BTW 2/22/22). Sentinels at around 3500-3600, Scoundrels at around 3400+ with those classes pulling those numbers, why bring a guardian as a dps? The gaps will continue to grow as more of the guilds that are running Hm Fortress and Palace get geared with their main hands weapons. The Best guardian parse with a 78 main hand is around 3300, that is below some of the 72 Main hand parses from the above classes. Suddenly that 5% turns into 10% or 15% or even in the shadows case 30%. With some of these suggested changes we'll end up shouting "Looking for HM raid group, have an alacrity buff."??? No thanks, you people need to get your heads out of your arses and smell what you've been shoveling as ideas, cause it stinks.

Edited November 5, 2013 by Creslan

[Keleus]

The real problem is Bioware doesn't test their classes how the players play them. They run their program and go by those metrics. The issue is, what if we as players don't play the same way the computer does? It's been mentioned by Bioware once already, in the smuggler thread about how saboteur roll bombs weren't meant to be used offensively so that damage wasn't part of their metrics for class balance. It goes to show that Bioware doesn't test the player rotations in their DPS metrics.

 

And as they sit there numbers keep going up and up. Gunslingers at around 3700, Vanguards at around 3400-3700 in their hybrid spec(that is an amazing spec BTW 2/22/22). Sentinels at around 3500-3600, Scoundrels at around 3400+ with those classes pulling those numbers, why bring a guardian as a dps? The gaps will continue to grow as more of the guilds that are running Hm Fortress and Palace get geared with their main hands weapons. The Best guardian parse with a 78 main hand is around 3300, that is below some of the 72 Main hand parses from the above classes. Suddenly that 5% turns into 10% or 15% or even in the shadows case 30%. With some of these suggested changes we'll end up shouting "Looking for HM raid group, have an alacrity buff."??? No thanks, you people need to get your heads out of your arses and smell what you've been shoveling as ideas, cause it stinks.

 

Because I'm sure the fact that BW also plans to nerf sents and slingers as well as a good amount of the earlier suggestions I listed were shot down by others because they said it'd be too strong.

 

Yea, ok.

 

Still though, you hold a valid point, a very, very valid point. As I have been saying along with a few others in addition to basic things such as the Raid Utility and Plasmabrand/MS Proc Dependency tweaks, we need a basic increase to damage across the board and some sort of extra edge to maintain us being useful. As of right now I'm barely keeping up with/beating out the Commando and Sage DPS my guild has, and BARELY within the 5-7% margin with my sentinel friend. Everyone else is dead even or just behind me and those are vanguards and lesser geared slingers. Sad fact is though BioWare doesn't like listening to it's playerbase as often as it should nor does it use us as free testing. God damn it, we would love to test stuff out for you, let us do it >_<

[Creslan]

And why should vigilance have more survivability? We already have 4 defensive cooldowns in Vigilance, a damage reduction talent and 20% less damage after a leap. If you want more survivability than that, there is a whole tree to the left dedicated to it.

 

The DPS trees should be looking for just that, DAMAGE. We need to increase our damage to be useful as a damage dealer. We are not tanks if specced as DPS. Why do we need more defense to do DPS? That's like a Commando asking for better heals so he can dps more.

 

Master Strike will never ever be instant. Getting Master Strike to 1.5 Secs channel, probably never, considering that a sent with zen is still at 2.3 secs. Any kind of utility that is group/raid wide more than 10% in anything, probably never. Vigilance will revolve around Master Strike til 3.0 at the earliest and still then probably never be changed, put this request up there with Hood Toggle.

 

What we can ask for, I've posted this list before. It's resonable and address some of our DPS issues, some more than others and we can't even ask for all 6, like 3 of them max

1.) Dot % damage increase

2.) 10-15% armor pen passive or 25-35% armor pen for next MS.

3.) Zen strike to 45%, keep the rate limit currently.

4.) Flat damage increase either from stance or skill bases increase.

5.) Offensive Guard, utility skill

6.) Focused Defense force cost removed (this should be a given, no other class has to pay resources to use their agro dump)

 

Could even ask for a "target takes more damage from X while Y is active" type ability based off something in the tree.

 

While the above is 99% about Vigilance, I realize that Focus also has its own issues. As for Defense. I've spoken with Defense guardians and Juggernauts, their biggest complaint is alacrity on tank gear, go figure.

[Creslan]

Because I'm sure the fact that BW also plans to nerf sents and slingers as well as a good amount of the earlier suggestions I listed were shot down by others because they said it'd be too strong.

 

Yea, ok.

 

Still though, you hold a valid point, a very, very valid point. As I have been saying along with a few others in addition to basic things such as the Raid Utility and Plasmabrand/MS Proc Dependency tweaks, we need a basic increase to damage across the board and some sort of extra edge to maintain us being useful. As of right now I'm barely keeping up with/beating out the Commando and Sage DPS my guild has, and BARELY within the 5-7% margin with my sentinel friend. Everyone else is dead even or just behind me and those are vanguards and lesser geared slingers. Sad fact is though BioWare doesn't like listening to it's playerbase as often as it should nor does it use us as free testing. gosh darn it, we would love to test stuff out for you, let us do it >_<

 

If anything, I see Flyby being changed for Gunslingers, but that's about it. I doubt they will nerf slingers and sents at all. With the upcoming change to Inspiration, I bet you'll see more 3 slinger 1 sent set ups dps wise on 8 mans. I've never played a more melee unfriendly game when it comes to raids. With how detrimental it is to run more than 2 melee and if it wasn't for Inspiration, I doubt you would see a sentinel in those groups at all, just 4 ranged DPS.

 

That is the big issue. Why bring any other dps if those 2 classes can do it better with more utility? They either need to do some major buffing to the other classes or nerf those 2 hard unfortunately.

Edited November 5, 2013 by Creslan

[Keleus]

Alacrity, useless to melee. Utter ****, but anyway, that entire list is possible for us and should be given to us. Not sure if that's my sense of entitlement talking or my immense instinct to be treated fairly, but yea. And when I said more survivability I didn't mean exactly for us, I refer to other people. Like make it so they become less squishy such as a tank or something of the sort as a sort of passive or active skill for guardians.

[Keleus]

If anything, I see Flyby being changed for Gunslingers, but that's about it. I doubt they will nerf slingers and sents at all. With the upcoming change to Inspiration, I bet you'll see more 3 slinger 1 sent set ups dps wise on 8 mans. I've never played a more melee unfriendly game when it comes to raids. With how detrimental it is to run more than 2 melee and if it wasn't for Inspiration, I doubt you would see a sentinel in those groups at all, just 4 ranged DPS.

 

I want to say you're full of it and defend melee with fierce conviction, but uhh, yea, melee are really **** on a lot in this game. Like, on a regular basis.

[Hell_Kaiser_Fett]

Alacrity, useless to melee. Utter ****, but anyway, that entire list is possible for us and should be given to us. Not sure if that's my sense of entitlement talking or my immense instinct to be treated fairly, but yea. And when I said more survivability I didn't mean exactly for us, I refer to other people. Like make it so they become less squishy such as a tank or something of the sort as a sort of passive or active skill for guardians.

 

That's what I tried to suggest.

[K_osss]

If anything, I see Flyby being changed for Gunslingers, but that's about it. I doubt they will nerf slingers and sents at all. With the upcoming change to Inspiration, I bet you'll see more 3 slinger 1 sent set ups dps wise on 8 mans. I've never played a more melee unfriendly game when it comes to raids. With how detrimental it is to run more than 2 melee and if it wasn't for Inspiration, I doubt you would see a sentinel in those groups at all, just 4 ranged DPS.

 

That is the big issue. Why bring any other dps if those 2 classes can do it better with more utility? They either need to do some major buffing to the other classes or nerf those 2 hard unfortunately.

 

I main a Sentinel and couldn't agree more. One area I think that you haven't elaborated on is the design of the fights themselves being ranged biased. That's a big point that isn't really addressed in a pure class balance discussion.

[ArenCordial]

Master Strike will never ever be instant. Getting Master Strike to 1.5 Secs channel, probably never, considering that a sent with zen is still at 2.3 secs. Any kind of utility that is group/raid wide more than 10% in anything, probably never. Vigilance will revolve around Master Strike til 3.0 at the earliest and still then probably never be changed, put this request up there with Hood Toggle.

 

An instant Master Strike is ridiculous and 1.5s channel a pipe dream but we should be asking for around a 2 second channel for it. That's what they did for Sharpshooter and Sharpshooter has a h*ll of a lot easier time finishing a channel on Speed Shot and immediately following up than we do with Master Strike. Frankly to center the spec around a 3 second channel for a 4m class is poor design that BioWare needs to be called out on.

 

With all the ops repeatedly adding in movement mechanics and/or knockbacks simply put one of two things needs to happen, either Master Strike is removed as the spec cornerstone and something else takes its place or if BioWare insists on having the spec revolve around Master Strike then Vigilance's Master Strike mush be the most reliable Master Strike in the game by far. This shouldn't even be debated.

Edited November 6, 2013 by ArenCordial

[ArenCordial]

I main a Sentinel and couldn't agree more. One area I think that you haven't elaborated on is the design of the fights themselves being ranged biased. That's a big point that isn't really addressed in a pure class balance discussion.

 

Whole heartedly agree.

[Riivan]

And why should vigilance have more survivability? We already have 4 defensive cooldowns in Vigilance, a damage reduction talent and 20% less damage after a leap. If you want more survivability than that, there is a whole tree to the left dedicated to it.

 

The DPS trees should be looking for just that, DAMAGE. We need to increase our damage to be useful as a damage dealer. We are not tanks if specced as DPS. Why do we need more defense to do DPS? That's like a Commando asking for better heals so he can dps more.

 

Because we're the heavy armor melee dps and a medium armor Sent in Combat has just about the same mitigation as us and better defensive cooldowns. If they want to make our heavy armor matter more and mitigate more dmg sweet, but right now we're feelin pretty weak. Running away from a boss to leap in every time it is up is a dps loss. Removing the focus cost of Focused Defense will do a lot to help. But just one extra CD would help, nothing too powerful.

 

Master Strike will never ever be instant. Getting Master Strike to 1.5 Secs channel, probably never, considering that a sent with zen is still at 2.3 secs. Any kind of utility that is group/raid wide more than 10% in anything, probably never. Vigilance will revolve around Master Strike til 3.0 at the earliest and still then probably never be changed, put this request up there with Hood Toggle.

 

It will never be instant or 1.5 seconds. It also probably won't change as the focal point of Vigilance, but I will continue to suggest they make it a nice happenstance rather than the focal point. They need to do something because our class can do the dps, but between RNG, being kited and having to dodge **** we're unable to utilize our "key" skill. 10% is a number I suspect people are just pulling out of their asses like the rest of the numbers.

 

What we can ask for, I've posted this list before. It's resonable and address some of our DPS issues, some more than others and we can't even ask for all 6, like 3 of them max

1.) Dot % damage increase

2.) 10-15% armor pen passive or 25-35% armor pen for next MS.

3.) Zen strike to 45%, keep the rate limit currently.

4.) Flat damage increase either from stance or skill bases increase.

5.) Offensive Guard, utility skill

6.) Focused Defense force cost removed (this should be a given, no other class has to pay resources to use their agro dump)

 

Could even ask for a "target takes more damage from X while Y is active" type ability based off something in the tree.

 

We're just offering up ideas we're not asking for anything aside from no Focus cost on our aggro dump. Everything else we'd present as an idea or what we'd like to see. While we are asking for I guess a utility skill in a broad sense we'd be offering up 3 or 4 ideas for what we'd like to see (Offensive Guard being just one of them).

 

While the above is 99% about Vigilance, I realize that Focus also has its own issues. As for Defense. I've spoken with Defense guardians and Juggernauts, their biggest complaint is alacrity on tank gear, go figure.

 

Not entirely sure what Focus' issues are, but if it is increasing single target DPS then I don't think they understand the purpose of that spec. Tank guards are doing just fine. Maybe a little more passive mitigation.

Edited November 5, 2013 by Riivan

[JonnyMadDog]

Lez try n stay focusd on a healthy solution here (JK Grd dalogue), regarding the random insultn of BWare devs, callin em names isn't gunna get em to respond positivly to this thread, which thy need to...25 pages encountin...tho tru, their combat team should get into it more and as hybrid deeps specs, particularly r spec, it does seem they need to plae as plaers plae not just go about their programs.

 

Have to agree w/ the peopl saying this is not a melee-frendly gam, it rly isn't w/ most bos fights, they need to make more that have a anti-rangd feel to em, less kitin and more spots fallin away from the bos' immediate area, yet no closer then a min range from em, just a thought...

 

Yeah if ey had to pick one, woud like and think r spec needs more dmg totls then utility and would take if had to choose just an increase to dmg then any new abilities/changes to DoTz/utility, but would like both as most do.

 

Since focus is rly the area spec def of course the tnker one and Vig the melee/primary singl target deeps spec r spec should conceivably be preffd ovr focus for evrything but maybe p v P, as focus/shared specs r generally the p v P ones, so they should do a bettr job of making the deeps spec/rspec of a build/r build have more totl dmg and variations w/ some abilities, like a bettr mastr strik then focus would have and even more so then a def spec would have, should those 2 specs have mastr strik, same w/ other builds, if multiple specs of a build has the same ability, say a channeled attak they revolve around, or seem to, it makes more sense for the pure deeps/singl target spec to have the bettr version of that ability they share...mastr strik in this case.

 

Yeah it does seem if they choose to not make it revolve around mastr strik it'll be till 3.0 at the earliest to add mroe stuff in break that dwn (Still support and can't wait for hood toggle tho).

 

Am liking the grdian's favor ability someon suggestd, be like an offensiv grd only r spec has it only and may or may not take the place of some of the offensiv grd functions ey've suggested n seen othrs suggest, whether it does or not, not sure about the 10-15m range on it, good for p v P allowing no OPness yet a reason to bring r spec, if it doesn't cover the offensiv grd should that come as well, but if it does take the place of an o g, then think it probly should be op-wide, should the energy buff ey've suggestd that would be r form of inspir not happen, tho would rather have that energy buff/r own form of inspir then grdians favor, enuff w/ op-wide mitigation/heals/dmg, there's enuff of those, BUT w/ an op wide energy replenish that brings the question/debate of if one had to choose between sentl n r spec for op wide utility/wzones w/e, who to bring? Which is bettr? Is an op wide increase to dmg/heals bettr and allowing of a victory mroe so then an op wide energy replenish? It's skill based, so even geared plaers can be bahd and nto so geared could be bettr, so if one can do more dmg totl/more w/ an enery replenish, a grp can, achieve victory more then a grp w/ increase to dmg/heals, then r spec would be more preferabele to have in a grp for pv E/P right? Ey rly think an energy replenish would b a great addition to r Vig spec and if a grp feels they can do more w/ more energy then a flat increase to dmg/heals, r spec would be brought into grps more, if had to choose between em. It wouldn't rly nrf sentls they'd stil b brought in ops grps but this is a good way of gettin r spec in the door and abringing of Vig Grd and Sentl would be a great 1-2 punc h for ops grps to have on boses, an increase to dmg/heals AND energy replenish.

 

Yeah the idea of a pure clas was a bit...eh...and gettin rid of em for op survivability and good deeps w/ hybrid builds and op-dmg bolstering/great deeps w/ sentls would be ok, but they're not gunna rework the whole gam like that the pure clases r here to stay, so best thing is to just fix what's in.

 

Thx for readn!

[volander]

From my point of view both of Defense Guardian and Vigilance Guardian is primarily designed for PVE where they deal in principle is not bad. But in terms of PVP I find they both seriously flawed and both deserve serious rethinking. DG suffers from a lack of serious debuff on the target, so it made sense to stay on target weakening it and making it vulnerable to attack by party members. As for the VG that he has no escape mechanism (such as - Transcendence or Hold the Line + Reactive Shield). I will never believe those who say that the Vigi/Veng is good and its L2P issue. Most likely you have had a great team that could well put pressure on the healer and in time saving your *** while you helplessly tried to get out of the roots, devouring tons of damage. I can be an average player, even bad it does not matter, because it suffices to compare the behavior of the VG and any other class reveals its potential in the same situation. My findings are disappointing:

- the Vigi easy to kite

- damage it easy to bypass

- damage highly spread over time

- impossible to get out of an unpleasant situation

Solution:

Gather Strength Whenever your movement is impaired, you gain Gather Strength incraising your next MS and FS by [10%, 20%] and reduce cheneling by [.5s, 1s]. This effect can stack up to 2 times and consume on use. Additionally Combat Focus grant [1, 2] stack of Gather Strength.

Commanding Awe Reduces all damage taken by [2%, 4%]% at all times and by an additional [7.5%, 15%] and and increases movement speed by [15%, 30%]. while Focused Defense is active. Additionally reduces the cooldown of Awe by [7.5, 15] seconds.

Focused Defense - remove any focus cost.

Zen Strike - Overhead Slash, Plasma Brand and Saber Throw have reduce active cooldawn of MS by [2, 4, 6] second.

Shien Form - Enters an offensive lightsaber form reducing cooldawn of MS by 5 second, increasing all damage dealt by 6% and movement speed by 15%. All attacks that cost focus will refund 1 focus when used.

Remove Preparation and replace it Close Quarters - Reduces the minimum range of Force Charge by 5 meters.

Force Rush - return the crit chance for Saber Throw.

Edited November 6, 2013 by volander

[MarkusBiggus]

compared to other tanks like vanguard and shadow guardians seem to be missing basics like a cleanse or purge to remove debuffs, a resistance to movement impairing like hold the line.

protections don't seem to make up for that - is too expensive with long cool down and short duration for the cost - reflect is too weak - sabre ward far too ineffective for the cool down time it suffers

[JonnyMadDog]

Ey like the idea of shin form reducing the cd on mastr strik n maybe making it more powrful, but only in the context of improveing mastr strik, as to implement this, which may take awhile if they decide to tie certain 'anchor' abilities to forms, all builds would want/get the treatment meaning each form will now need to have an ability tied to it, so if r spec gets shin form to help out mastr strik it means more work to balance the gam as all other forms will get an ability tied to their forms. Ey'd prefer just reducing the cd on mastr strik flat out and increasing the dmg flat out, and polishing the animat a tad a good .2 to .4 secs (depending on one's latency/connect) could b shaved off, as previously noted.

 

Ey think making one of if not mey fav ability in gam and of many others, sabr reflect (so awesom) longer would make it a tad OP, but that's mainly for offensiv JK Grds, am thinkin for tnking/def Grds agree sabr reflect n sabr ward could be longer/strongr by a teeny tad bit, say a sec each, and that includes the, blade turnin is it?, immunity ability sabr ward grants at start, but for offensiv/Vig/Foc Grds think sabr reflect is fien as it is, tho of course it'd be awesom to make it longer, lol, tho sabr ward's blade turnin/immunity could be a teeny tad bit longer not as much longer as def Grds' sabr ward's blade turnin ability could be, that'd be by a sec, would say a half sec for offensiv Grds.

 

Ey like the idea of combat focus, r energy replenish being, not necessarily tied to an ability, as then all builds may need to get their replenishes tied to one, but also activate/surge an increase in dmg in one's next attak/mastr strik mainly wat r spec would use aftr gettign that, s suggested recently above. Also think 'aw' r area stun ability could activate a buff that will increase dmg in r next attak/an attak as well, and not just be a stun, maybe do same w/ stasis, but also give the Grdian a reprieve enuff time to gather strngth huh huh? Yeah.

 

Thx for readn!

[RyderQuanTy]

I have been playing vigilance since launch and mainly pvp. Currently the random nature of the class is a serous weakness and it was not always that way. Why was the random dispatch proc introduced? Was it to help mid range fights in the kite game if so why did gather strength get nerfed because that was what it was for. Lets be clear if you got 5 stack it was usualy some other guardian spaming slow If the class needed a dps boost why not give blade storm a bump specific to the tree or make sunder spamable so it provides a raid utility and spread the damage out to limit burst and removes strike.

I find the changes to cool down time so they no longer alighn neatly creates more a random rotation ad reduces the probability of MS procs the additional time to PB reduces the probability of MS procs over time that is much harder on pvers that pvp In long fight this rotation is just sloppy/clunky. In fact I feel the play went from smothe and predictable to random and clunky.

 

At launch MS was a filler/ extra dps on powerfull enemys and that filler was improved and nice in 1.2 and actualy created a situation where the vigilance could just overpower most in pvp. as far as the kite game in pvp adding a root to MS creats more problem for sages and commandos For ex force leap a sage PB OHS slow sunder force knock back/ root if they sprint stasis till sprin wears off sill slow and 5 m away blade storm dispatch now u closed the gap ms and repeat the rotation no ned for fp or anything obviously there are many varations of how this will go but it the classes that are struggling vs melee will be the ones that are easyier to kill. the Vigilane need stronger fillers and make it steady damage through its rotation. Remove the dispatch proc and return its crit proc. Even out the dps with blade storm dps increase so when 10m range you can hit hard and chose to move in or back off to set up a leap. Put Pb and sunder cool down in line with OHS so the rotation is clean. Remove the reliance on MS and remove the addition MS proc Make burns proc dps boost to MS so you have a major burst every 30 seconds and put a dps bump on slash so the fillers are strong and steady. And put gather strength back to where it was so when you are chain knockbacke by a group between leaps you come back in with some thunder that is dps that was a dirick result of being kited so you get a boos when you need it the most.

[Keleus]

Can I just ask why everyone is so hellbent on using Vigilance to PvP with? It's not meant to be a PvP spec yet everyone is trying to make it that way lol And Guardian Tanks do lack the basics, but again, built for PvE, not PvP XD That said though, you do have a point in that we're missing the basics of any tanking class, and if we really are meant to not have a self-cleanse or a Movement Negation Skill, then our Defensive CD's need to be a hell of a lot stronger than what they currently are right now.

 

Back to the issues with Vigilance DPS: Last night I ran DF and DP 16sm, and somehow people were complementing me for doing good DPS and how much of a rareity I was for pulling aggro even with a guard up through sheer DPS and still managing to survive (I'm not proud of the aggro, really I'm not, that's a bad thing) and somehow pull the same numbers as the two commandos, sentinels, sages, and most of the gunslingers, on occasion going right clearly past them (staying alive does wonders for your parses, who knew). This should not be happening. People shouldn't be surprised by the class doing the deed, they should be surprised by the player and their gear level doing the deed.

 

That said, I encountered and was reminded of, yet again, the issues that are constantly presented to us as a melee DPS that is in a sense a Hybrid Class, and remembered a short list of things I thought of ages ago when talking with a friend about the difference, or should-be-there-difference between Guardians and Sentinels.

 

For starters, Sentinels are more weapon and technology masters before anything else, so all their skills being focused around straight melee damage and CCing makes sense, I'm ok with that, go on, word, more power to you, BUT that leaves us Guardians in a Lore-Loop, because we're meant to be masters of war and lightsaber combat, but also be in touch with the Force, which sounds a lot like a Shadow to me though, no? The mixing of lightsaber techs and force powers? Left me at a bit of am impasse I'll admit, but there's still a way to beef us up and remain true to our lore. Sort of.

 

Mechanically Speaking Guardians need to wear heavy armor, it's a symbol, it sets us apart from the rest, makes sense since we're on the front lines and we use the force as we fight our enemies and buff our allies. That said, why not make that heavy armor work to increase our dps? Say through a passive learned skill that makes it so that for X amount of Armor we have, we gain Y amount increase to our Power? something along the lines of that to start.

 

Next step would be to make all of our stances also do something for the Operations Group as a whole. Nothing gigantic of course, but something that would be useful and help out everyone and be enough to count as "Raid Utility". Soresu form increases a tanks armor by a pretty hefty amount (15 I think it was?), but what if it reduced the damage done to the operation as a whole by 3%? Shi-Cho form is pretty damned useful for PvP no? Well let's make sure everyone gets 4% extra armor pen while a guardian is nearby in Shi-Cho form. Shien form? Increases the damage done by the entire raid by 2% while also increasing a healers healing done by 2%. All this can be built right into Single Saber Mastery.

 

Lastly, before anyone proposes another change to Master Strike (which I still want damn it but I'll let you guys petition that) make so that we have Force Lash as a passive Guardian Skill so everyone can use it, and after doing that make it so that it accompanies every melee attack the Guardian does (maybe with a slight increase in damage) and have a new talent in the Focus Tree to increase the damage Force Lash does and/or have it that a Force Lash crit slows the target.

 

These, and earlier proposed ideas I had in mind, would do our class well I believe.