Thoughts on Riposte

[MBirkhofer]

HEY GUYS.

 

90% OF SENT/MARAS THINK THE CLASS SUCKS.

 

90% OF SENT/MARAS DON'T USE RIPOSTE/RETALIATION.

 

COINCIDENCE? I THINK NOT.

 

 

 

Spend 1 GCD on Vicious, for 900 damage at a cost of 2 rage ...

 

Spend 1 GCD on Assault + Retaliation, for 450 + 800 = 1250 damage at a cost of 1 rage ...

 

 

HMM. DO YOU WANT 450 DAMAGE PER RAGE, OR DO YOU WANT 1250 DAMAGE PER RAGE?

 

OH SNAP.

 

The problem with this math is GCD is irrelevant. You burned 3 rage for 800 damage.

that you striked the same time doesn't matter.

That strike gave +2 rage. Presumably you would have done it anyway.

And you needed 3 rage to retal first.

So option 3?

Spend 1 GCD on assualt, and have 5 rage.

 

Which I then use for merc strike, or force exhaust. Or zealous leap, or blade storm, or blade rush.

Is this pvp? cause if Im actually getting hit, it probably is. Then I need rage for leg slash, crippling throw, and kick, as well.

 

slash is the least efficient rage spender.

You said it yourself. 900 damage for 2 rage, or 800 for 3. and that was an unbuffed slash. As noted focus buffs slash, and blade rush replaces it in combat.

 

We are limited by focus generation and output. Not gcd's.

that exact same reason is why Combats ZEN is garbage, while Focus's is so strong.

shii-cho's zen not only gives you 3x6=18. 18!!! free focus, but with the +1 focus talent it BUILDS 6 focus. What does combats do? lets you deal 6 blade rushs in 6s instead of 9. derp. terrible.

Edited December 23, 2011 by MBirkhofer

[Tamas]

Pointless skill - no point of using over the main skills as it does not provide any benefit.

[Jpope]

I don't know if sentinels get this skill as well but it is a mandatory tanking skill for guardians when properly specc'd into

[Toppins]

Pointless skill - no point of using over the main skills as it does not provide any benefit.

 

This is just so wrong. It's off the GCD. It does respectable damage. The focus cost is an "oppurtunity" cost. It's a great focus dump in PvP.

 

It has limited use in PvE for sentinels (it is a crucial skill for Guardian Tanks), mostly being in sticky situations when you need to burst down a mob... but in PvP it is crucial.

 

As a Watchman I generally have leftover focus from those times I force jump/stasis without being able to land a hit on someone because they CC me... so you have 8+ focus going in against an opponent, you know you have a limited window in which to do damage before you are CC'ed again, you have saber ward up because you're being hammered as you pursue, so Riposte is definitely up... Overload-Jump/Cauterize/Merciless Slash-RIPOSTE... so in the span of 2 GCD's you have applied some of the best burst in the game... even if they apply CC at this point you have hurt them badly.

 

You're telling me that extra 800-1300 damage (base 27% chance to crit with 60% bonus damage on my 50 sentinel) is "useless"? Oh, I could have saved the 3 focus and not been able to use it. Instead my target is actually dead.

 

The same people whine about sentinels not having burst, of course.

Edited December 24, 2011 by Toppins

[Maefly]

Third option: always roll your finger over Riposte-Slash-Strike whenever you press Slash.

 

They take the same Focus to activate. If Riposte is available, you will use Riposte+Strike.

 

If it is not, you will use Slash.

 

Hopefully they will add some type of Macro UI with the ability to check focus levels and make decisions.

 

Protip: You always pool bits of Focus in Watchman, unless you really like delaying your Overcharge Saber by a GCD.

 

If you wouldn't mind reading over this it might actually be better to delay OS by a GCD or 2 in a rotation in order to keep it rolling at 3 stacks.

 

 

Edit: Also, pooling focus has almost no negative impact to DPS if you float at a specific level in general. You simply treat 3 focus as "0" focus. The only net damage to DPS is as the beginning of the fight when you "start" at an effective -3 focus. Bad theorycraft is bad.

 

In spite of your rude tone (come on we're all still trying to figure this out be constructive), I'll respond and hopefully help move this discussion forward. If you plan out your rotation, you should always Force Leap and Immediately Overload Saber (Unless you are purposefully delaying to try to roll stacks) so the required focus is built into Force Leap. They are on the same cooldown when talented in watchman.

 

If you're just hitting OS when ever it comes up and hoping you have enough focus or banking focus because you haven't timed out your generators and spenders, then you are not maximizing your rotation.

 

The good news is that some of our generators will over generate at 50. Force leap will give us four and we only need it to provide 3 which gives us a free banking. This will come in handy when Slash resets cauterize and we need an extra 2 focus. But as watchman it seems like spending focus as quickly as possible will maximize our dps.

 

I would welcome some examples or rotations where pooling could potentially do more damage as watchman and am not above admitting I could very well be completely wrong on this issue. But it would have to be more thoughtful and less "bad is bad" nonsense.

[DoomedtoDie]

.. Overload-Jump/Cauterize/Merciless Slash-RIPOSTE... so in the span of 2 GCD's you have applied some of the best burst in the game... even if they apply CC at this point you have hurt them badly.

 

This sounds great on paper, and im sure works fine, but this situation is so rare and 99% of time you are better off saving the 3 focus and adding a GCD for blade storm since you are likely snared to hell and back, and if they are not moving master strike does all that instead.

 

It would not be so unreasonable if it was not part of such an overcrowded hotbar, as it stands it's just too much hassle for too little gain.

Edited December 24, 2011 by DoomedtoDie

[Toppins]

This sounds great on paper, and im sure works fine, but this situation is so rare and 99% of time you are better off saving the 3 focus and adding a GCD for blade storm since you are likely snared to hell and back, and if they are not moving master strike does all that instead.

 

It would not be so unreasonable if it was not part of such an overcrowded hotbar, as it stands it's just too much hassle for too little gain.

 

I don't find it that rare; it's certainly more common than being able to use Oppurtune Strike/Pommel Strike.

 

I have it on my Shift+ bar, next to my defensive/emergency abilities. I use it just as much as Saber Ward. I would certainly consider it part of my top-25 abilities (the amount of abilities I have an easy time with).

[AlkalineKitten]

Phew, I thought it was just me.

[Cancrizans]

I haven't been using it at all lately, besides the fact that I have enough skills to fill all the hotkeys I can think of without it that are more important either as part of a rotation or are necessary to have hotkeyed for quick access, I think the animation is just lame.

 

The Sith Warrior version at least has a cool animation, my Knight always looks like he is giving the mob a reach around and love tapping it with his saber lol.

[OldxLady]

I don't find it that rare; it's certainly more common than being able to use Oppurtune Strike/Pommel Strike.

 

I have it on my Shift+ bar, next to my defensive/emergency abilities. I use it just as much as Saber Ward. I would certainly consider it part of my top-25 abilities (the amount of abilities I have an easy time with).

 

I hope you talk PvE. Because everyone know Pommel Strike does not work in PvP...

 

Ripost is useless, I am sorry. The cost is to much for what you get, not to mention the fact that it almost never proc in PvP. Sure it is of GCD and always hits, but the fact is in PvP it will never proc.

The fact is all players have basic 90% to hit you, which means there is only by default 10% chance that you will be able to use Riposte. Add the fact that Sentinles almost dont have any defence and that higher levels everyone get higher Accuracy, you can see how usefull it is.

But I gues hey, you can probebly save and use Ripost when ever you pop "Saber Ward" or any other awesome long CD ultility skill that we have. It sure is usefull to be able to use that ability once in the blue moon =)

 

But thats me. I have long time ago removed it, and I sure have not been doing wors...

[missingink]

playing from a tank point of view i thought these counterattack type of abilities where generally great agro builders.

dunno how effective it is for building agro in ToR but properly talented it costs 1 focus so it a must i would say

Edited February 16, 2012 by missingink

[Inphyy]

We are limited by focus generation and output. Not gcd's.

that exact same reason is why Combats ZEN is garbage, while Focus's is so strong.

shii-cho's zen not only gives you 3x6=18. 18!!! free focus, but with the +1 focus talent it BUILDS 6 focus. What does combats do? lets you deal 6 blade rushs in 6s instead of 9. derp. terrible.

 

Sorry, but not garbage at all. It's very good burst and you didn't take into account combat's random offhand strikes which proc for additional damage and lower the focus cost as well.

 

You can say one might be 'better' (Although it's entirely respective on the situation) but combat's is not garbage when it's pretty much a free kill on anyone in pvp. It's good enough for pve as well as the burst it gives is quite high (Quicker hits also = higher% for guaranteed crit for sabre throw).

 

If you just look at any one ability it might look good or it might look bad, until you look at it with respective to other tools available.

 

Same w/ riposte, I feel it has its uses. It's nice that it stays there for awhile so you can use it pretty much in the ideal situation when it's up.