Why I disagree with the dark side in this game

[Abbyssion]

How do you explain light-sided Sith PCs, who regularly use the dark side without suffering moral corruption? Or Kyle Katarn?

 

Kyle Katarn uses the beard side of the force

[StarMagus]

How do you explain light-sided Sith PCs, who regularly use the dark side without suffering moral corruption? Or Kyle Katarn?

 

Lies and propaganda.

 

We all know that Jedi never lie.. except when they are setting you up to kill your own father.. then they only tell you things "from a certain point of view".

[StarMagus]

Delve a little deeper. There is only one instance where the Jedi carried out "genocide", and that belongs to a small note on a non-G-canon source. But of course, you're right. The Jedi slaughtered millions everytime, just like the Sith did. Yeah, they're murderous bastards, invariably killing without necessity.

 

Every war the Jedi were involved in were not started by them. Every war.

 

Umm.. it's in the Holonet from Bioware...

 

 

 

AS THE REPUBLIC FLEET WIPED UP WHAT REMAINED OF THE SITH MILITARY, NAGA SADOW FLED AGAIN, THIS TIME INTO PERMANENT EXILE ON YAVIN-FOUR.

 

IT WAS AT THIS MOMENT THE REPUBLIC MADE WHAT MIGHT NOW BE CONSIDERED A MISTAKE:

 

THE SITH NO LONGER POSED A THREAT TO THE REPUBLIC, BUT THE SUPREME CHANCELLOR WAS UNSATISFIED. JEDI AND REPUBLIC FORCES WERE SENT TO KORRIBAN AND OTHER SITH PLANETS TO ENSURE NO REMNANTS OF THE SITH EMPIRE REMAINED.

 

IT WAS THIS ACTION WHICH DROVE THE SURVIVING SITH TO FLEE INTO DEEP SPACE WITH THE NEW DARK LORD WHO ROSE TO TAKE NAGA SADOW’S PLACE…

 

Enemy is defeated and retreats and you and your forces chase them down to wipe them out? Ouch... so much for being all about peace.

[Stinghen]

How do you explain light-sided Sith PCs, who regularly use the dark side without suffering moral corruption? Or Kyle Katarn?

 

Fanciful departures from the lore. Channelling the Dark Side requires being corrupted by it.

[Xilizhra]

Fanciful departures from the lore. Channelling the Dark Side requires being corrupted by it.

Not, clearly, so much that one becomes irredeemable. Given that one can come back from darkness even when one's fallen as deep as Anakin, the dark side evidently doesn't destroy one's potential to perform good acts. With that being the case, one could do good even after having used the dark side extensively.

[StarMagus]

Fanciful departures from the lore. Channelling the Dark Side requires being corrupted by it.

 

That makes no sense, the game is as much the lore as the EU stuff, as the Reven stuff , and the like.

[Stinghen]

Lies and propaganda.

 

We all know that Jedi never lie.. except when they are setting you up to kill your own father.. then they only tell you things "from a certain point of view".

 

Because big bad Obi-wan wanted poor Vader dead so bad, he had to send Luke to do it. He wanted Vader dead so bad he let himself be struck down by him. He wanted Vader dead so bad that he killed him himself on Mustafar.

 

No Jedi every instilled the sense of need for revenge upon their pupils. So, when Obi-wan tells Luke Vader killed his father, he is not trying to infuse that sentiment, but to warn him Vader was one evil mofo.

 

 

Umm.. it's in the Holonet from Bioware...

 

Enemy is defeated and retreats and you and your forces chase them down to wipe them out? Ouch... so much for being all about peace.

 

Do you know the source for that entry? I do. It is the 1994-95 comics called Tales of the Jedi, The Great Hyperspace War story arc, comprised of two parts: Golden Age of the Sith and The Fall of the Sith Empire. In the latter, the Sith attack of the Republic fails (because of the Jedi, and Gav Daragon's interference with Naga Sadow's illusions). After the Sith are sent running from Republic space (a war the Sith themselves started), it wasn't the Jedi Order chasing them. It was the forces from the Koros system, led by Empress Teta. The Jedi remained on Coruscant and Koros, and did not participate in the final assault.

 

After the destruction of the Sith fleet, and the flight of Naga Sadow and his exile on Yavin IV, the Koros fleet returned home. It was only after that, after the Great Hyperspace War was officially over (it ended with the battle above Korriban), the Republic conducted an invasion of the Sith Empire under orders from its Supreme Chancellor. It was stated the Chancellor himself believed the Sith should be extinct, but the further conflict is not rigorously developped upon, and the exact role of the Jedi in the aftermath of the GHW was never developped further than saying they participated in the ensuing battles. That was the small note I mentioned, from The Essential Atlas to SW, a non-G canon source.

 

So no, the aftermath of the GHW was not engineered by the mischievous Jedi so they could conduct widespread murder. The battle over Korriban had no participation from Jedi, and the aftermath "purge" was ordered by the Supreme Chancellor.

 

Not, clearly, so much that one becomes irredeemable. Given that one can come back from darkness even when one's fallen as deep as Anakin, the dark side evidently doesn't destroy one's potential to perform good acts. With that being the case, one could do good even after having used the dark side extensively.

 

I'm not saying that they're beyond redemption. But do you think, if he had survived, Vader would keep using Force choke indiscriminately? Or, assuming someone like Dooku would have been redeemed, that he would keep Force lightning? Don't give me Revan, he's a pop hero for fanboys, so they give him the cool abilities and say "he's not a Darksider". And every other EU example that has the same just wants an antihero sort of character (a la Wolverine), giving them the cool powers of the Dark Side, a questionable morality while still counting him among the "good guys".

 

That makes no sense, the game is as much the lore as the EU stuff, as the Reven stuff , and the like.

 

KotOR was filled with undue exaggerations, but the big bad continuity team gives it oversight over popularity. Nobody argues with KotOR because it's a sin. I'm well-known for being a sinner. Kreia wiping the memory of several Jedi Masters from the Jedi High Council, an endless fleet-spawning space station,

 

expanded upon to be able to generate everything, from weaponry to droids to fleets to universes, as Revan theorises on the quest on Nar Shadda,

 

a Sith Lord that never dies, another who can just suck up the entire life force of whole worlds, filled with Jedi Masters...

 

Many of these exaggerations were remedied with TOR. It feels much more Star Wars, rather than Dragon Ball/D&D mashup. Although they made some forgiveable mistakes (like giving Revan Force lightning, which is not stated elsewhere but in the battle with him), the only "god" in TOR is really the Emperor, and it doesn't take another "god" to deal with him (like the Exile being able to slay Nihilus only because she herself was a wound in the Force, and he couldn't drain her) - it took a powerful, but without overblown abilities, Jedi Knight to kill his Voice. And it throws into stark relief the fact the Emperor could outlive his years, but he wasn't truly immortal.

 

The point is that the EU is often prone to exaggeration. Sometimes, it's harmless, other times, their drive exactly this type of thorn into the side of established, G-canon facts. Like this one: the Dark Side corrupts, and those who wield it, or walk towards it, are inevitably corrupted, unless they're swerved suddenly (like Vader was, when he killed Palpatine to save his son).

 

Moreover, Revan always had a questionable grasp of morality, willing to go to any lengths to achieve his goals. It's what caused his fall to begin with in the Mando Wars, and after his rescue from the Maelstrom, he does it again, building a doomsday army to use against Vitiate and his empire. There is no indication he wasn't close to falling to the Dark Side again: people simply see what they wanna see because of the Revanite quests, and prefer to believe their folk hero can use lightning, he's not a Darksider but he doesn't abide by what they call "the stupid rules of the Jedi". If you ask me, Revan had half fallen to the Dark Side anyways.

[StarMagus]

Because big bad Obi-wan wanted poor Vader dead so bad, he had to send Luke to do it. He wanted Vader dead so bad he let himself be struck down by him. He wanted Vader dead so bad that he killed him himself on Mustafar.

 

No Jedi every instilled the sense of need for revenge upon their pupils. So, when Obi-wan tells Luke Vader killed his father, he is not trying to infuse that sentiment, but to warn him Vader was one evil mofo.

 

Keep in mind that when Obi-Wan left vader in Episode 3 he was 100% convinced that he was going to die. In fact he was such a **** about it that instead of giving him a clean death, he left him limbless on the ground next to a flow of lava that was already causing Vader's body to catch fire. That's not just killing somebody that's making sure that the last few moments of their life is a living hell of pain.

 

Yeouch!

 

By the time of the fight on the Death Star, Obi-Wan was old and weak and wasn't going to win that fight anyways.

[Stinghen]

Keep in mind that when Obi-Wan left vader in Episode 3 he was 100% convinced that he was going to die. In fact he was such a **** about it that instead of giving him a clean death, he left him limbless on the ground next to a flow of lava that was already causing Vader's body to catch fire. That's not just killing somebody that's making sure that the last few moments of their life is a living hell of pain.

 

Yeouch!

 

By the time of the fight on the Death Star, Obi-Wan was old and weak and wasn't going to win that fight anyways.

 

Obi-wan - the real villain. The novelisation of the Episode III had Sidious' shuttle arriving right at that moment. That's not what happened in the film. But Darth Vader was the good guy, regardless. That's obvious. It's not like the Jedi watched their entire order be wiped out, even the bloody kids murdered in cold blood before they decided to tear the root of the problem and kill the Sith Lords responsible. Not to say Obi-wan's methods were not questionable, and not like Obi-wan hadn't previous brushes with Dark-side-ish sentiment, like in his duel with Maul. But he would learn to bitterly regret not committing any final action against Vader, seeing the continuation of the Great Jedi Purge that followed.

 

The point is this - Obi-wan was a punctual example, and you generalise his "misbehaviours", so to speak, over the entire Jedi Order. Which is an unacceptable argument any way you look at it. The only "perfect Jedi", so to speak, was Yoda. And even Yoda is not a whole picture of the entire Order. But implying that Obi-wan was a wily schemer wanting to set father against son, that's just laughable in my opinion.

[StarMagus]

Obi-wan - the real villain.

 

Huh, and Obi-Wan accused the Sith as always thinking in black and white.

 

The point wasn't that Obi-Wan was the "real" villain it's that Jedi can be just as evil as any Sith when it suits them. Leaving a guy to die while slowing being consumed by fire as you scream at him how much you loved him and he was your brother is without a doubt an act of pure evil.

 

Add on: The holonet was pretty clear that

 

JEDI AND REPUBLIC FORCES WERE SENT TO KORRIBAN AND OTHER SITH PLANETS TO ENSURE NO REMNANTS OF THE SITH EMPIRE REMAINED.

 

Not that the Jedi went home to be all chill on their home planets, but that they went with the Republic forces in their purge the Sith cruise. So I guess they can go with "I was only following orders." Which as we know is a perfectly acceptable excuse for Genocide. Even more so when we know from this game that not all Sith are evil or follow the Dark Side or even are force users.

[Stinghen]

I won't bother replying to that. It's gone too far out of the topic of the thread.

[Xilizhra]

I'm not saying that they're beyond redemption. But do you think, if he had survived, Vader would keep using Force choke indiscriminately? Or, assuming someone like Dooku would have been redeemed, that he would keep Force lightning? Don't give me Revan, he's a pop hero for fanboys, so they give him the cool abilities and say "he's not a Darksider". And every other EU example that has the same just wants an antihero sort of character (a la Wolverine), giving them the cool powers of the Dark Side, a questionable morality while still counting him among the "good guys".

In the former case, no, as Force Choke does not seem to be a combat-useful power and killing off your own subordinates would likely be a no-no. In the latter, yes. There are even Jedi who've never fallen to the dark side at all, who've used Force lightning (Plo Koon and Luke Skywalker, IIRC).

[StarMagus]

In the former case, no, as Force Choke does not seem to be a combat-useful power and killing off your own subordinates would likely be a no-no. In the latter, yes. There are even Jedi who've never fallen to the dark side at all, who've used Force lightning (Plo Koon and Luke Skywalker, IIRC).

 

Didn't Yoda chuck a bunch of force lightning at Palp during the 3rd movie?

 

Just watched it on Youtube. I guess he didn't. Hmmm...

[Xilizhra]

Didn't Yoda chuck a bunch of force lightning at Palp during the 3rd movie?

Technically, that was just a reflection of Palpatine's own lightning.

[Xakthul]

Obi-wan - the real villain. The novelisation of the Episode III had Sidious' shuttle arriving right at that moment. That's not what happened in the film. But Darth Vader was the good guy, regardless. That's obvious. It's not like the Jedi watched their entire order be wiped out, even the bloody kids murdered in cold blood before they decided to tear the root of the problem and kill the Sith Lords responsible. Not to say Obi-wan's methods were not questionable, and not like Obi-wan hadn't previous brushes with Dark-side-ish sentiment, like in his duel with Maul. But he would learn to bitterly regret not committing any final action against Vader, seeing the continuation of the Great Jedi Purge that followed.

 

The point is this - Obi-wan was a punctual example, and you generalise his "misbehaviours", so to speak, over the entire Jedi Order. Which is an unacceptable argument any way you look at it. The only "perfect Jedi", so to speak, was Yoda. And even Yoda is not a whole picture of the entire Order. But implying that Obi-wan was a wily schemer wanting to set father against son, that's just laughable in my opinion.

 

Yoda was an angry bastard in some of the EU. Along with most of RoTS.

[Argonloris]

A person can use dark side abilities without being corrupted. Luke was quite capable of using force lightning and other dark side powers in his later years. Force lightning would probably be considered a lesser dark side ability though considering some of the jedi that used it. Beyond Luke there was Anikin Solo shortly before his death (though I think they called it something else in that novel). Also Jedi Master Plo Koon used it at one point (He later became one of the members on the Jedi Council if you don't know who he is). There are a number of other powers that are thought as being borderline dark side abilities such as malacia, sever force, morichiro (oddly enough though it would be a powerful ability for the sith, no sith ever used morichiro). In similar fashion there are dark side users that are able to do things similar to light side abilities. Vergere could make what basically amounted to a cure-all with her tears (she could also make deadly toxins) The idea that abilities were exclusive to one side or the other is flawed in form. Yes one side is more apt to use an ability than the other but anyone who could wield the force was able to use any ability.

[XanderDet]

This is why neutral is the best alignment , or you know, make the choices you want to make and manipulate your total alignment with Flashpoint decisions (or diplomacy). Or finally, who cares, it's purely aesthetic and Dark side corruption looks silly on most characters anyway (sure, excluding low level relics... but relics are hardly essential until endgame anyway).

[Prototypemind]

A person can use dark side abilities without being corrupted. Luke was quite capable of using force lightning and other dark side powers in his later years. Force lightning would probably be considered a lesser dark side ability though considering some of the jedi that used it. Beyond Luke there was Anikin Solo shortly before his death (though I think they called it something else in that novel). Also Jedi Master Plo Koon used it at one point (He later became one of the members on the Jedi Council if you don't know who he is). There are a number of other powers that are thought as being borderline dark side abilities such as malacia, sever force, morichiro (oddly enough though it would be a powerful ability for the sith, no sith ever used morichiro). In similar fashion there are dark side users that are able to do things similar to light side abilities. Vergere could make what basically amounted to a cure-all with her tears (she could also make deadly toxins) The idea that abilities were exclusive to one side or the other is flawed in form. Yes one side is more apt to use an ability than the other but anyone who could wield the force was able to use any ability.

 

You can spin it as you like, but consuming entire worlds to increase your power: evil. Enslaving entire planets because they crossed you: evil. Crushing children in front of their father so that you can sustain yourself on their suffering: evil. Lucas himself spoke to the fact that while some use of the Dark side isn't evil, Sith in general are. Did I have more balanced decisions with my Sin, especially with Ashara in tow? Yes. Am I evil? Yes I am. =p

 

The Sith want to conquer the galaxy for the sake of conquest. This was Sadow's Plan, Horde's plan, Palpatine's Plan, etc. Bane laid the groundwork to plot revenge against the Jedi over centuries, with the "follow-on" plan to include galactic domination once again.

 

Back to the original discussion, yes, it makes little sense that a number of what are clearly choices that will further your and the Empire's goals are light side when they are in no way being done out of a sense of altruism for one's fellow man.

[StarMagus]

Keep in mind that Lucus wrote Star Wars as a homage to early Sci-Fi movies he loved as a kid where black and white morality was just the way things were presented. The entire Jedi/Sith Light Side/Dark Side of the force falls apart when people try to make it more "real" and pull it out of it's Space Opera origins.

[BradTheImpaler]

You can spin it as you like, but consuming entire worlds to increase your power: evil. Enslaving entire planets because they crossed you: evil. Crushing children in front of their father so that you can sustain yourself on their suffering: evil. Lucas himself spoke to the fact that while some use of the Dark side isn't evil, Sith in general are. Did I have more balanced decisions with my Sin, especially with Ashara in tow? Yes. Am I evil? Yes I am. =p

 

Well, things like that on such a massive scale (i.e. Katarr) bring a deadness to the Force more than a strong dark-side presence. As for Lucas, he's the authority on canon (maybe a bit less so now than before) but not an authority on morality. Even if we agree that Sith are evil because Lucas says they are, it is still possible for an evil group to do good (as well as to do evil).

 

The Sith want to conquer the galaxy for the sake of conquest. This was Sadow's Plan, Horde's plan, Palpatine's Plan, etc. Bane laid the groundwork to plot revenge against the Jedi over centuries, with the "follow-on" plan to include galactic domination once again.

 

Not for the sake of conquest, no. They have their own philosophical views, politics, etc. just as Jedi have theirs (not saying they're equal or making a judgement of either side here, just saying the Sith are far from all motivated by a desire to "conquer for conquering's sake).

 

Back to the original discussion, yes, it makes little sense that a number of what are clearly choices that will further your and the Empire's goals are light side when they are in no way being done out of a sense of altruism for one's fellow man.

 

Well, the writers certainly argued as much. You can disagree with them all you like, but:

 

The universe is at war, the Republic and the Empire are mortal enemies, they are in a kind of cold war,” he said. “And we didn’t think it would make any sense for you to kind of leave one side and go and work for the other. If you don’t like what your government is doing typically you don’t go and join the enemy, you try to change your government. And so that’s what we’ve explored. So if you’re born in the Sith Empire you’re not necessarily evil, that’s just where you’re born and because there’s a war going on you care about your people and you don’t want them hurt. So you will fight the Republic who are trying to bomb you into oblivion. But you will also fight the government and all the decisions that they are taking that are terrible and very aggressive.

 

But as a Republic person you will have Light Side and Dark Side choices. You can be a terrible, and I mean terrible, person working for the Republic.

Edited October 7, 2013 by BradTheImpaler