If Bioware spent one whole patch on fixing ability delay...

[Arkerus]

I think that a major code refinement pass would help many of the current bugs in the game. Not to mention that there are still seams that need to be connected in the environment, rendering is still a problem (especially static rendering).

 

The loading of objects and textures has improved, but certain objects, like mailboxes and GTN kiosks are treated like resource spawns instead of static objects, and I think that needs to change.

 

I have noticed that with the way it was designed, since those objects have triggers, they don't appear until some kind query or data is received from the server.

 

Functional but odd. I really don't care either way but the way the engine works is odd at times.

[Aries_cz]

I've got a quote from someone in the industry:

 

This, Malastare is one of the few people that have time to debate on forums and who understands how developer companies work.

 

Definitely one of the best posts around here.

 

This is another one of my favorites...

 

http://mrlizard.com/rants/why-havent-they-fixed-this-bug/

 

People who understand it...get it. People who don't...make ridiculous assumptions and bad threads asking for bug fix mega patches.

 

And this. The only difference between Malastare and Mr.Lizard is that Mr.Lizard spices his answers with delicious sarcasm and snark sauce.

[gorstram]

I'm commenting on the premise of the OP title.

 

What the OP suggests is that the developers STOP doing everything else and work on ability delay ( which yes, ultimately needs fixed).

 

What I am telling you is that game development doesn't work that way. Not everyone has the same set of skills nor do they ever look at portions of the game or code that they have nothing to do with. You have modeler a, map designers, class balance designers, server code maintenance, client maintenance, animation specialists. Its all specialized and normally these people are organized into cross functional teams.

 

Joe Bob the modeler has NOTHING to do with ability delays. He just fixes and creates models. Asking him to STOP making content because of the ability delay is absurd and a terrible waste of time.

 

Its not a assembly line. The teams don't stop making content because one issue is still open.

 

Get it?

 

Look, I don't know why ability delay doesn't work but asking for a big patch to just fix bug issues is not realistic nor should you ever expect unless bioware specifically says it is. They might from time to time make small bug fixes but the modelers and designers don't stop working on their content.

 

I completely get it. Thank you for breaking that down for me. I just wish we could get some kind of word on if this is still actively being worked on, or if it's something that can't be fixed... anything is better than the bleak nothingness that we have received so far.

[Arkerus]

I completely get it. Thank you for breaking that down for me. I just wish we could get some kind of word on if this is still actively being worked on, or if it's something that can't be fixed... anything is better than the bleak nothingness that we have received so far.

 

I agree with you. I still get ability misfires all the time. I have an avg ping of about 60ms. When I talk about the development cycle its not to defend bioware. Its to explain we won't see some mega fix patch dedictated to just the ability delay and it announced as such. It will come with other patches if we see it fixed. Modelers don't fix ability delays.

 

Its still happening and bioware needs to keep it on their radar.

[ShiningKnights]

Painfully ignorant.

 

Someone who designs content or armor or costumes can't work on the ability delay because he would have no clue what to look for.

 

I can take 100 professional chefs and ask them to engineer a car. That would be a terrible, awful car.

 

And if you want to bring resources in now it will take 3-6 months to get them up to speed and then maybe that can have an impact.

 

Welcome to real life, enjoy your stay.

 

Here's what I know: WOW, RIFT, and every other MMORPG I have played does not have ability delay. I don't know why those games are fine, but I judge based on results and all I know is that this game is broken in that respect. You can give me all the technical reasons & excuses in the world till I'm blue in the face-and at the end of the day, something is broken and has been broken for the last 2 years. If it was fixed in 6 months or even 1 year, I'd be cool with that. But 2 years???

 

All I ask is that they fix it and make it a priority. And before you say to me "Go play WOW then," I like this game a lot which is why I'm still here; I just wish they could make it better.

[Projawa]

I wonder how much of this GCD skipping is due to server cluster inadequacies as a result of the "superserver" consolidation last year and how much is due to less than optimal netcode (http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=4095498). My memory could be off but I don't remember there being this many ability delays prior to the 1st round of server merges last year.

[micnevv]

Absolutely, and now with arenas coming up we need it fixed more than ever.

[spectreclees]

Except they don't prioritize like that. The same people who do content don't work on the engine/bugs. The problem with ability delay is because of the poorly optimized engine causing hiccups and slowdowns of the interface.

[Marb]

Part of the reason why the false gcd/ghost abilitiy bug is so frustrating, is exactly the reason it's hard to fix.

 

There isn't much consistency as to when it happens. At one point I thought it was due to some weird sync issues with the client and server caused by low fps and higher client-side latency, but those factors don't seem to make it any more prevalent. It isn't as simple as an ability not responding to being activated, it's the fact that these misfire's TRIGGER THE HARD GLOBAL COOLDOWN, which is a really annoying bug, especially when a high APM is important (PvP and Ops).

 

My guess is that it is to do with activating abilities during a short client/server desync caused by high server load. This leads to discrepancies between what the server and client thinks happened:

 

 

• The client is convinced the ability was activated and triggers the gcd.
  
• The server thinks the ability wasn't fired and doesn't apply any damage.
  
• The client thinks the ability was fired and plays the animation without the server applying damage or triggering the cooldown.
  
• The server and client conflict as to where a gap closer should put the player, causing the gap closer to leave the player well short of their intended target.
  

 

This is probably a pretty bad run down and is ignorant of how data is actually sent and intercepted from client to server, but the point is that the server thinks things are happening that aren't happening.

Edited September 17, 2013 by Marb

[SleepyKing]

Basically it's a lag between you pressing a button and the ability going off, keyword lag. People are complaining about it without bothering to understand what causes lag, which can't be fixed with a patch.

 

No, that is NOT what people are complaining about. People understand lag. There are two issues, probably related:

 

- An ability is pressed, and the GCD fires, but nothing actually happens. You don't lose the ability, and can use it again once the GCD finishes, but you've effectively wasted a GCD. If you're doing NiM content, that really, really hurts.

 

- A channeled ability (master strike, series of shots etc.) is pressed, and the animation triggers but no damage is actually being done. Again, you lose the GCD, although the ability itself does not go on cooldown. Effectively you're getting an "empty" animation. This is perhaps even more annoying, since you may not immediately realize that it has happened - the animation is going and you think all is good in the world, until you see that the ability is not doing damage or has not gone on cooldown.

 

I would guess that Marb above is right - that it has something to do with client-server communications, where your client thinks you have activated the ability and thus triggers the GCD/animation, while the server does not recognize it happening.

It may have to do with hitting an ability in the lag window between when your client thinks the last GCD finished and when the server thinks it did. It does seem to get worse with higher lag; I didn't experience it much on Dalborra at 15ms lag, but I get it a lot on Harbinger at 250ms.

Whether or not they can fix the network code is another matter. They may no longer have the expertise in house to do that, and it may actually be there as a tool against cheaters using modified clients. That said, it would be good if they could invest some resources into looking into it. It's maddening to lose dps in NiM content when enrage timers are already so tight.

Edited September 17, 2013 by SleepyKing

[Blackardin]

Man. You just don't get it.

 

If they are going to re-tool and hire additional resources or shuffle the deck that takes time and money. Time and money. Time...and...money. That doesn't happen overnight. This industry is extremely prone to layoffs so development studios never hire beyond what they need.

 

Everything in business takes "time and money". What is your point? The only point that is relevant is whether that time and money yields positive results. That is where your lack of understanding of business practice is showing. It has been done in this industry, and is done in the electronic industry as a matter of norm. In fact, it is a standard practice in business as one of the most basic rule of business is that a company must re-invent itself on a continual basis in order to survive and expand.

 

This has less to do with whether it can be done then your assumption regarding how business functions in an ever changing marketplace.

 

Look bub, I don't care if you own your own space shuttle. You obviously don't understand how these environments work. If you did, you wouldn't be arguing the point. And what point ARE you arguing? That we should see a bug fix only mega patch? That would be a ridiculous waste of resources.

 

I'm sure that you do not care to hear any voice of experience that may counter your assumptions.

 

What I am arguing is your pompous, arrogant, adolescent attitude directed at others based on little more then your own personal belief and assumed understanding of business practices, noting more or less. I've said nothing about a "super patch" or its implementation and have had no part of that discussion beyond suggesting that it would be a good topic for discussion. You've interjected that, as you have with the entirety of the subject.

 

To delve further into that area would be a greater exercise in futility then is this as even the basic premise of how such would be accomplished is being constructed so as to fit neatly into the disparaging, and uniformed argument put forth to the contrary. It is so far skewed from how such implementation is, or would be executed that it would take page after page to establish prior to any logical discussion ensuing. The amount of assumptions and misinformation I would have to wade through in order to do so would be far more staggering then trying to unravel and entire database of random spaghetti code.

Edited September 17, 2013 by Blackardin

[Blackardin]

Here's what I know: WOW, RIFT, and every other MMORPG I have played does not have ability delay. I don't know why those games are fine, but I judge based on results and all I know is that this game is broken in that respect. You can give me all the technical reasons & excuses in the world till I'm blue in the face-and at the end of the day, something is broken and has been broken for the last 2 years. If it was fixed in 6 months or even 1 year, I'd be cool with that. But 2 years???

 

All I ask is that they fix it and make it a priority. And before you say to me "Go play WOW then," I like this game a lot which is why I'm still here; I just wish they could make it better.

 

Wow, Rift, and other games have also already utilized the "bug fix patch" approach. The process is not at all what is being presented here as a means of disparaging such. Hell, we re-tooled entire companies back in the 80s when the IBM compatible revolution (or evolution depending on one's point of view) occurred, and did so in less time then that.

[Blackardin]

Definitely one of the best posts around here.

 

This is another one of my favorites...

 

http://mrlizard.com/rants/why-havent-they-fixed-this-bug/

 

People who understand it...get it. People who don't...make ridiculous assumptions and bad threads asking for bug fix mega patches.

 

 

This is the issue. This is your supporting documentation?

 

This is why I would not begin to waste my time trying to explain the formatting of these types of "fixes", as it would be an exercise in futility equatable to a school yard argument.....as evidenced by such eloquent "proof" of one's argument that begins as such

 

"Why They Haven’t Fixed Your Bug Yet And, Why You’re A Moron For Asking"

 

Though I can assert that executive meetings regarding such endeavors are often begun in such ways, I'll have to bow out of this. I'll yield the last insult and leave you to your intellectual banter and fascinating discussion. ;p

Edited September 17, 2013 by Blackardin

[Malastare]

I would guess that Marb above is right - that is has something to do with client-server communications, where your client thinks you have activated the ability and thus triggers the GCD/animation, while the server does not recognize it happening.

 

This has been suggested before, but it was shot down pretty quickly because a bunch of armchair developers were certain that it was just bad coding and couldn't have anything to do with network communication.

 

The reality is that it behaves a lot like standard multiplayer-game client-server desync. There's a good chance that its also directly related to at least some of the rubber-banding and random instances of mobs being drawn in one location on the client but recorded in a slightly different location on the server (sometimes resulting in seemingly nonsensical "You must be behind the target" error messages). It would also explain why some people say they see it a lot, while others --for example: me-- see it very, very rarely. I live about 5 miles from the servers. My latency is low and I rarely see any latency spikes. As with most other games that see this sort of situation, it is more likely to occur at higher latencies.

 

Sadly, the fix isn't as simple as checking the "Avoid desync issues" checkbox on your compiler. This usually ends up being the result of optimization, and a good example of a case where making code run faster involves making it less tolerant of various error conditions. To fix it, you either have to come up with some clever solution, or do more error checking and lose some of the performance you gained with the optimization. The later is quick, but has design tradeoffs. The former is better, but may take anywhere from a day to a year. Again, if any of our local armchair developers have a good way of synchronizing a client and server across a link where latencies can vary by upwards of 300% across a few minutes, then they should speak up because they've got a bright career in development ahead of them.

[Aries_cz]

This is the issue. This is your supporting documentation?

 

This is why I would not begin to waste my time trying to explain the formatting of these types of "fixes", as it would be an exercise in futility equatable to a school yard argument.....as evidenced by such eloquent "proof" of one's argument that begins as such

 

"Why They Haven’t Fixed Your Bug Yet And, Why You’re A Moron For Asking"

 

Though I can assert that executive meetings regarding such endeavors are often begun in such ways, I'll have to bow out of this. I'll yield the last insult and leave you to your intellectual banter and fascinating discussion. ;p

 

If you bothered to read the entire post, you would find that Lizard is talking about very specific types of stupid questions and explains why people are moronic to think that graphics can work on server debugging.

[Marb]

This has been suggested before, but it was shot down pretty quickly because a bunch of armchair developers were certain that it was just bad coding and couldn't have anything to do with network communication.

 

The reality is that it behaves a lot like standard multiplayer-game client-server desync. There's a good chance that its also directly related to at least some of the rubber-banding and random instances of mobs being drawn in one location on the client but recorded in a slightly different location on the server (sometimes resulting in seemingly nonsensical "You must be behind the target" error messages). It would also explain why some people say they see it a lot, while others --for example: me-- see it very, very rarely. I live about 5 miles from the servers. My latency is low and I rarely see any latency spikes. As with most other games that see this sort of situation, it is more likely to occur at higher latencies.

 

Sadly, the fix isn't as simple as checking the "Avoid desync issues" checkbox on your compiler. This usually ends up being the result of optimization, and a good example of a case where making code run faster involves making it less tolerant of various error conditions. To fix it, you either have to come up with some clever solution, or do more error checking and lose some of the performance you gained with the optimization. The later is quick, but has design tradeoffs. The former is better, but may take anywhere from a day to a year. Again, if any of our local armchair developers have a good way of synchronizing a client and server across a link where latencies can vary by upwards of 300% across a few minutes, then they should speak up because they've got a bright career in development ahead of them.

 

I can't remember who said it or find a quote, but I do remember hearing something about the old ability delay issue being related to some sort of buffer the server has, and a throttle to prevent too many actions being performed within a very short amount of time. This was during the peak of the really bad animation/ability delay issues that plagued launch, but I can't help but wonder if they closed the book on that issue too soon.

 

Firing most of the people who did their head in trying to work with the engine during development probably wasn't the best idea, considering the alleged difficulty of adding multi-player features, which has been cited as one of the main contributors to the development cost blowout. If we or Bioware's QA could effectively diagnose and reproduce the issue, it would be a matter of prioritizing when to look into a fix for it. I fear that the issues are to do with the server, and as such, we as players can do little to help them diagnose it other then remind them with new forum threads that it's still an issue.

Edited September 18, 2013 by Marb

[Arkerus]

Everything in business takes "time and money". What is your point? The only point that is relevant is whether that time and money yields positive results. That is where your lack of understanding of business practice is showing. It has been done in this industry, and is done in the electronic industry as a matter of norm. In fact, it is a standard practice in business as one of the most basic rule of business is that a company must re-invent itself on a continual basis in order to survive and expand.

 

This has less to do with whether it can be done then your assumption regarding how business functions in an ever changing marketplace.

 

 

 

I'm sure that you do not care to hear any voice of experience that may counter your assumptions.

 

What I am arguing is your pompous, arrogant, adolescent attitude directed at others based on little more then your own personal belief and assumed understanding of business practices, noting more or less. I've said nothing about a "super patch" or its implementation and have had no part of that discussion beyond suggesting that it would be a good topic for discussion. You've interjected that, as you have with the entirety of the subject.

 

To delve further into that area would be a greater exercise in futility then is this as even the basic premise of how such would be accomplished is being constructed so as to fit neatly into the disparaging, and uniformed argument put forth to the contrary. It is so far skewed from how such implementation is, or would be executed that it would take page after page to establish prior to any logical discussion ensuing. The amount of assumptions and misinformation I would have to wade through in order to do so would be far more staggering then trying to unravel and entire database of random spaghetti code.

 

You typed a lot of words but you failed to understand my point.

 

What I find mildly amusing about the whole thing is that you have NO idea who I am. And I'm not saying you should. What I can tell you is that I live, breathe and eat project management and development for living. Its what I do. And yes, I manage people. I'm probably saying too much already.

 

And what I can tell you is that the premise that bioware just sit down and "patch" the ability delay by supposedly putting all their resources on it is painfully ignorant and honestly, really really silly.

 

Those who get it...do. Those who don't....make forums posts about it.

Edited September 18, 2013 by Arkerus