Time to ungimp assassins

[mmjarec]

Bioware has the metrics. And the metrics ARE valid and genuine. I would bet my life on it.

 

If this issue was one that either was as serious as presented or contrary to how Bioware designed it it would likely already have been adjusted. Obviously Bioware intended some kind of DPS reduction in ability with utility classes. My main is a Sorc...so i understand reduced DPS.

 

It will likely be adjusted if Bioware deems it necessary. For now it seems they are going to wait for more info.

 

Then if their metrics were right they would have perfectly balanced classes but they dont. Sorcs are crying about their dps too. And get off the utility crap there is no such thing as utility in asassins. Either their metrics calculations are wrong or they suck at balancing or both. If they were as good as you said then there wouldnt be balance issues

Edited September 16, 2013 by mmjarec
Sp

[Reno_Tarshil]

Then if their metrics were right they would have perfectly balanced classes but they dont. Sorcs are crying about their dps too. And get off the utility crap there is no such thing as utility in asassins. Either their metrics calculations are wrong or they suck at balancing or both. If they were as good as you said then there wouldnt be balance issues

 

Last time I checked stealthing to apply a CC was considered a Utility...

[danielearley]

Sorry but without validation i refuse to beleive you seeing how every legit parse shows them on bottom. And how exactly are they a utility class what utility do they provide that warrAnts a drastic drop in dps. Please dont say stealth

 

They arent a utility class they are a dps class. Too bad just saying you saw a parse that you cant prove had sins in top dps slots doesnt make it true

 

For every parse you claim to see but fail to provide evidence of i can provide evidence of ten parses that habe them on bottom. Once again its beyond dispute. They are gimp The facts prove it. Your opinion proves nothing. Especially when you see a parse of a class you dont play or provide proof that it happened. In that case i saw a talkig bear making sammiches for a giraffe. Wow see how easy lying is

 

Actually I have a Shadow which I enjoy playing and have never considered it gimped. Although I agree that compared to my Gunslinger it has lower damage, but as mentioned I expect that as the Gunslinger is Pure DPS.

I generally play my Gunslinger in OPs as we already have a shadow in our group, but I much prefer my Shadow for PVP where it is OP. If you don't think so watch You Tube there are loads of Shadow/Sin Vids to watch, you never know you might L2P watching it.

With regards to showing Parses, sadly I don't have any, but even if I did you would just say the other classes were under geared or weren't playing well as it doesn't suit your requirements.

I've not noticed but has anyone actually agreed with you on this thread?

[kidatwood]

Last time I checked stealthing to apply a CC was considered a Utility...

 

 

Now here is something I can agree on in this thread. I guess the other thing I don't get is that about a year ago there nerfed this class why wait so long to complain?

[keimox]

Stealth and CC. Lol. Even operatives do better DPS than Assassins.

[kidatwood]

Stealth and CC. Lol. Even operatives do better DPS than Assassins.

 

Because they are the true steath class. Inquiz are the Druids of tor!!

[Vaerah]

Sorry but I've seen MOX Raids where Shadows have been 2nd and 3rd on the DPS table for Boss fights, so once again I return you to L2P.

I didn't say that moving was a game balancer, was pointing out that it's easy to have good rotation for a slinger on a Dummy as you don't have to concentrate on anything else, it never moves out of your AOE and you don't have to move out of its.

Good DPS figures come from play in a dynamic situation not sitting in front of a Dummy.

As pointed out by other posters, Shadow/sins have other utility compared to pure DPS, so I would not expect them to have the same DPS. But their DPS is not that far behind. So once again if yours is L2P

 

PvE speaking, I have way much more CC and utility on my sniper and on short CD than on my shadow. Just saying...

[Vaerah]

Last time I checked stealthing to apply a CC was considered a Utility...

 

I can apply pre-battle CC with my sniper from 35m away without even risking to get unstealthed. So?

Edited September 16, 2013 by Vaerah

[Reno_Tarshil]

I can apply CC with my sniper from 35m away without even risking to get unstealthed. So?

 

Uhm Snipers can't stealth and they can only CC Droids which puts that person into combat with you. So?

[Vaerah]

Bioware has the metrics. And the metrics ARE valid and genuine. I would bet my life on it.

 

Metrics are worthless if you don't use them properly.

 

Guess how good have done ~metrics~ to retain millions of subs to BW?

[Vaerah]

Uhm Snipers can't stealth and they can only CC Droids which puts that person into combat with you. So?

 

I have done 8 and 16 men on my shadow and stealth has always had a marginal value at best.

 

"Only CC droids" considering they mix in droids and humans, it's the other half of the CC-able mobs.

 

Anyway my much less played sniper (actually gunslinger) is 3 times easier to play than my shadow main and gets *at least* twice as good results with no effort. That's clearly balanced on ~stealth~

Edited September 16, 2013 by Vaerah

[Vaerah]

I am sorry to see many are so delusional and grasp at straws (lolstealth): in SWTOR there are just better classes and worse. If that's too harsh for you, deal with it AND reroll accordingly OR quit the game like millions have done before you.

 

I am still not done having fun with SWTOR so I am now playing a proper, AAA, first grade citizen class. Keep playing the runt if you want, and sweat like a madman just to stay afloat. Nobody will care for sins, they are hated because they ~stealh and gank~ your level 22 alts on Tattooine.

Edited September 16, 2013 by Vaerah

[Eitetsu]

Okay. So we are claiming assassin is a "utility class." Sure. I can agree with that. Sorcerer as well. As a result, their DPS is slightly lower. Not sure I agree with that, but alright. However, it is also generally agreed that all classes should be within a certain margin of each other, none too strong or weak as compared to another. The number I see mentioned a lot is 5%. All DPS specs should be within 5% of each other. Sounds about right.

 

I am pretty sure assassin DPS is more than 5% off from other classes. Dummy or boss fight. On the dummy it's obvious. But even on boss fights, if you look at Torparse statistics on individual boss fights, assassins are less than stellar. Maybe they're only 7% off, and just need some slight tweaks to bring them within that 5% (same with tank spec--apparently they just need the equivalent of a 4% damage reduction to bring them in-line).

 

No one is arguing that they need a huge overhaul. They only need a tuneup.

[Reno_Tarshil]

I have done 8 and 16 men on my shadow and stealth has always had a marginal value at best.

 

"Only CC droids" considering they mix in droids and humans, it's the other half of the CC-able mobs.

 

Anyway my much less played sniper (actually gunslinger) is 3 times easier to play than my shadow main and gets *at least* twice as good results with no effort. That's clearly balanced on ~stealth~

 

I think you're confusing your sniper/gunslinger's utility with that of an operative, which can do the droid cc and a non-droid cc.

 

Oh and your Sniper/Gunslinger does more DPS because it's a Pure DPS class and not a Hybrid Class like a Shadow Which is Tank and DPS. And you yourself said it's 3 times easier, which is true because I have my own Sniper and it's pretty faceroll to play to success.

 

So, try again?

[oaceen]

this thread is a prime example of how this type of thing can backfire if handled poorly.

 

what is a commonly-accepted truism: assassins/shadows need some work, is argued with such hyperbole and lack of understanding that people are simultaneously arguing that 1, it's not true, and 2, it should be that way.

 

 

there are so many misconceptions over this conversation that i don't even know where to begin and if i'll even cover them all, but here goes:

 

 

 

saying that assassins need help and shadows are fine is just ludicrous. assassins and shadows are mirrors and mechanically work the same.

 

 

 

shadow/assassin spikiness is an issue. the problem with this stems from bioware's metrics: time to kill (ie: just hitting a tank until it dies) and how that doesn't really apply with actual boss mechanics.

 

to clarify, shadows/assassins are actually better in the time to kill metric than the other two tanks, but due to their designed spikiness, have a tendency to just blow up from specific big energy/kinetic attacks such as terminate from the operations chief. if they simply changed the damage type of these big attacks to internal/elemental (and lowered the value to compensate), shadows would probably be back on top as best tank class again since they do much better against this type of damage than the other two tank classes.

 

 

 

bioware's stated goal of dps is 5%, not 15%. are they within this goal? in practice, no. snipers/gunslingers are performing much more above metrics due to the fact that orbital strike/flyby are so powerful in a single-target rotation.

 

there is also a fallacy in looking at dummy parses when, converted to a raid setting, many classes would gain a lot: armor debuff, execute moves and talents, etc. and in fact, shadows/assassins have the most to gain from dummy parse to actual boss fight. the only spec in the entire game that loses/gains absolutely nothing from dummy to boss fight is arsenal mercenary / gunnery commando because they have a built-in armor debuff and no execute talent or ability.

 

what's more, engineer/saboteur can 'wall bang' the dummy, creating super-inflated parses.

 

the problem as a result of this is that people use the highest-possible parses as the 100% marker that other classes should fall in line with, not taking into account that it's performing above intended design metrics. they then completely ignore the fact that many of the numbers can be slightly misleading, due to the fact that there will never be an execute phase, and many classes parse without an armor debuff.

so, are shadows within 5% of other classes. probably not, but there's a lot of inflated numbers out there, and the most salient point i can give, the world first kill for dread guards (pre-nerf when they had more health, did a lot more damage, and had a 30s tighter enrage timer) completed it with a balance shadow, where no one was allowed to be carried in that fight. even if they are performing outside of the 5% target, they are still perfectly viable for the hardest content in the game.

 

 

 

in terms of progression viability, wild-berry is a very good example of someone who's not only completing nightmare content as a shadow, but doing so in balance and infiltration, and ranking on the current 2.0 NiM progression leaderboards

 

 

 

there is no 'utility class' and i don't know where this idea started. all classes have utility (though some more than others, which has been stated will be addressed), but no class is useless on its own and only exists to buff the efficacy of others. kinetic combat is a tank spec, infiltration is a dps spec, and balance is a dps spec. shadows have no healing spec (not sure where this one came from either).

and that said, there is no design philosophy that classes that can heal or tank are specifically intended to do less dps (there was an ambiguous statement in the sorcerer answers that led players to suspect the devs might feel this way that was blown way out of proportion, but that was clarified later in the juggernaut answers).

as i said earlier, all dps specs are intended to be within 5% of each other.

 

 

 

TL;DR: assassins are fine. they need a little bit of a help, but threads like this are hurting the cause rather than helping it.

Edited September 16, 2013 by oaceen

[fire-breath]

Heres your proof naysayers oh sins are fine. Read it and weep

 

Commando/Mercenary

1. Pizza'dah'hutt - Mercenary Arsenal - 6/36/4 - 3179.33

Log Link: http://www.torparse.com/a/398227/tim...0/Damage+Dealt

AMR Profile: http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/characte...cyCompCount=20

 

Scoundrel/Operative

1.Invinc - Operative - Lethality - 4/6/36 - 3248.72

Log Link: http://www.torparse.com/a/353755/tim...0/Damage+Dealt

 

Shadow/Assassin

1. M-knightrider - Shadow - Balance - 8/2/36 - 2836.74

Log Link: http://www.torparse.com/a/395977/tim...0/Damage+Dealt

AMR Profile: http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/characte...7-c98ef2f12ee6

 

Modifing the dps using the scalers from KBN:

 

Commando/Mercenary

1. Pizza'dah'hutt - Mercenary Arsenal - 6/36/4 - 3179.33

Log Link: http://www.torparse.com/a/398227/tim...0/Damage+Dealt

AMR Profile: http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/characte...cyCompCount=20

 

Scoundrel/Operative

1.Invinc - Operative - Lethality - 4/6/36 - 3459,89

Log Link: http://www.torparse.com/a/353755/tim...0/Damage+Dealt

 

Shadow/Assassin

1. M-knightrider - Shadow - Balance - 8/2/36 - 3265,09

Log Link: http://www.torparse.com/a/395977/tim...0/Damage+Dealt

AMR Profile: http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/characte...7-c98ef2f12ee6

 

Sry? what point were you trying to make here mate? I know the scalers can't be used exactly as I did, however it does show you keep forgetting about the armorpens and 30% executions/buffs.

Ohw, and sents/marauders? something about using inspiration?

 

Anyway ... point being, if you calculate in the dps difference when shadows can make use of armorpen+<30%skills they can outperform commando's and/or will at least perform about equally. The dps-difference between the shadow and scoundrel parses is about 6%, which isnt to big a deal and certainly not a 'gimp'.

 

Owh? and have you checked what Wildberry is doing? (S)He is doing NiM-content on a regular basis. Appearently shadows/sins are just fine since else wildberry would have been kicked long time ago for being a burden (I assume, no offence intended)

Edited September 16, 2013 by fire-breath

[Avicii]

this thread is a prime example of how this type of thing can backfire if handled poorly.

 

what is a commonly-accepted truism: assassins/shadows need some work, is argued with such hyperbole and lack of understanding that people are simultaneously arguing that 1, it's not true, and 2, it should be that way.

 

 

there are so many misconceptions over this conversation that i don't even know where to begin and if i'll even cover them all, but here goes:

 

 

 

saying that assassins need help and shadows are fine is just ludicrous. assassins and shadows are mirrors and mechanically work the same.

 

 

 

shadow/assassin spikiness is an issue. the problem with this stems from bioware's metrics: time to kill (ie: just hitting a tank until it dies) and how that doesn't really apply with actual boss mechanics.

 

to clarify, shadows/assassins are actually better in the time to kill metric than the other two tanks, but due to their designed spikiness, have a tendency to just blow up from specific big energy/kinetic attacks such as terminate from the operations chief. if they simply changed the damage type of these big attacks to internal/elemental (and lowered the value to compensate), shadows would probably be back on top as best tank class again since they do much better against this type of damage than the other two tank classes.

 

 

 

bioware's stated goal of dps is 5%, not 15%. are they within this goal? in practice, no. snipers/gunslingers are performing much more above metrics due to the fact that orbital strike/flyby are so powerful in a single-target rotation.

 

there is also a fallacy in looking at dummy parses when, converted to a raid setting, many classes would gain a lot: armor debuff, execute moves and talents, etc. and in fact, shadows/assassins have the most to gain from dummy parse to actual boss fight. the only spec in the entire game that loses/gains absolutely nothing from dummy to boss fight is arsenal mercenary / gunnery commando because they have a built-in armor debuff and no execute talent or ability.

 

what's more, engineer/saboteur can 'wall bang' the dummy, creating super-inflated parses.

 

the problem as a result of this is that people use the highest-possible parses as the 100% marker that other classes should fall in line with, not taking into account that it's performing above intended design metrics. they then completely ignore the fact that many of the numbers can be slightly misleading, due to the fact that there will never be an execute phase, and many classes parse without an armor debuff.

so, are shadows within 5% of other classes. probably not, but there's a lot of inflated numbers out there, and the most salient point i can give, the world first kill for dread guards (pre-nerf when they had more health, did a lot more damage, and had a 30s tighter enrage timer) completed it with a balance shadow, where no one was allowed to be carried in that fight. even if they are performing outside of the 5% target, they are still perfectly viable for the hardest content in the game.

 

 

 

in terms of progression viability, wild-berry is a very good example of someone who's not only completing nightmare content as a shadow, but doing so in balance and infiltration, and ranking on the current 2.0 NiM progression leaderboards

 

 

 

there is no 'utility class' and i don't know where this idea started. all classes have utility (though some more than others, which has been stated will be addressed), but no class is useless on its own and only exists to buff the efficacy of others. kinetic combat is a tank spec, infiltration is a dps spec, and balance is a dps spec. shadows have no healing spec (not sure where this one came from either).

and that said, there is no design philosophy that classes that can heal or tank are specifically intended to do less dps (there was an ambiguous statement in the sorcerer answers that led players to suspect the devs might feel this way that was blown way out of proportion, but that was clarified later in the juggernaut answers).

as i said earlier, all dps specs are intended to be within 5% of each other.

 

 

 

TL;DR: assassins are fine. they need a little bit of a help, but threads like this are hurting the cause rather than helping it.

 

This is a great post. Not sure I am in complete agreement they are fine however I do believe BW should balance around the top 10% and let the rest trickle down. If we are balanced so be it let's adapt and get an arena spot although I think the meta needs to be shaken up to change some preception currently about the FoTM classes small changes like push Undyings cd out ect. Stuff that minimally affects PvE DPS.

 

Anyway off on tangents great post read it people.

Edited September 16, 2013 by Avicii

[oaceen]

This is a great post. Not sure I am in complete agreement they are fine however I do believe BW should balance around the top 10% and let the rest trickle down. If we are balanced so be it let's adapt and get an arena spot although I think the meta needs to be shaken up to change some preception currently about the FoTM classes small changes like push Undyings cd out ect. Stuff that minimally affects PvE DPS.

 

Anyway off on tangents great post read it people.

 

i think fine as in 'not nearly as bad as the OP is claiming'

able to do the content. have some difficulties, but still viable, etc.

[mmjarec]

Stealth and sap is highly situational at best and doesnt warrant 15% plus dmg decruase. Sorcs have bubble heal. Every class has a cc dont be a fool i dont see them at the bottom of dps chart.

 

And to the guy using creative math to parse. Torparse is considered legit. Your homemade parses are not. You cant pick and choose buffs to apply or not. No class that has massacre can use it on a dummy you get one execute on a mob if you are lucky but as a sin you are dead before it gets to that point so there goes your argument.

 

Do a real parse search of all mobs on all sins highest is 2800 now look at other classes. Around 3200. Thats not within the stated 10% range bioware stated thusly its unbalanced. Nice try

 

You also cant just call a cc utility when every class gets one. Pretty useless for pvp as well. If you consider sap an ability that labels one as a utility class then every class is utility. And guess what snipers hve roll maras have both droid and humie cc and guess what else sorcs and ranged clases do more dmg and at range which limits their vulnerability.

 

Sins on the other hand have to fight face to face so for putting themselves at greater risk they should have greater dmg but hey guess what again. They dont

[kidatwood]

Maybe I missed something on my maurader I know we have the droid cc but a human one what is the name of that skill she is 47 now I'm assuming I got it by now...

[oaceen]

Maybe I missed something on my maurader I know we have the droid cc but a human one what is the name of that skill she is 47 now I'm assuming I got it by now...

 

do you mean intimidating roar?

[Reno_Tarshil]

Stealth and sap is highly situational at best and doesnt warrant 15% plus dmg decruase. Sorcs have bubble heal. Every class has a cc dont be a fool i dont see them at the bottom of dps chart.

 

And to the guy using creative math to parse. Torparse is considered legit. Your homemade parses are not. You cant pick and choose buffs to apply or not. No class that has massacre can use it on a dummy you get one execute on a mob if you are lucky but as a sin you are dead before it gets to that point so there goes your argument.

 

Do a real parse search of all mobs on all sins highest is 2800 now look at other classes. Around 3200. Thats not within the stated 10% range bioware stated thusly its unbalanced. Nice try

 

You also cant just call a cc utility when every class gets one. Pretty useless for pvp as well. If you consider sap an ability that labels one as a utility class then every class is utility. And guess what snipers hve roll maras have both droid and humie cc and guess what else sorcs and ranged clases do more dmg and at range which limits their vulnerability.

 

Sins on the other hand have to fight face to face so for putting themselves at greater risk they should have greater dmg but hey guess what again. They dont

 

This pretty much shows, you have no idea about any of the classes in the game. Let's begin.

 

He can pick and choose what buffs and debuffs to have because that's how it works in the game. As you advance the game your class buff will eventually be able to buff you with all 4 Class Buffs. There are also Stims and Adrenals you can use. Finally not every class can apply an armor debuff, like a Shadow can't. Therefor using a parse on a Dummy as a Shadow or Sin can't provide an Optimal OPs DPS behaviour. So that's out the window as being legit.

 

As for the Execute on the Dummy thing. No Class that has an Execute can trigger their Execute except for Vigilance Guardians/Vengeance Juggernauts who take the talent "Keening"/"Destroyer" which has a chance to grant the ability to use your Execute at any Health Range. So that's disproven.

 

Not Every Class get's a CC. Your Precious Guardians/Juggernauts and Vanguards/Powertechs do not have a CC. Of the Three Tanks only Shadows and Assassins have a CC. So, no, not every class has a CC and in this regard Having a Tank that can CC is an advantage over the other two. All can CC, disproved.

 

Speaking of CC, that's utility. Useless in PvP? No, useful for stealing nodes and messing with would be afkers from stealth or forcing a CC breaker. Snipers have a Roll, but unlike the Operative roll where they can roll continously, this Roll only goes forward once and puts them into Cover, so basically it's not a roll and just a glorified Cover. Also Sentinels and Marauders can only CC Droids. They cannot CC Humanoids.

 

Ranged DPS, do more DPS, because they're ranged and can stand at range to do DPS, where as Melee have to either take a moment to leap in or run over before they can DPS.

 

In a 1 on 1 Situation all classes have to fight Face-to-Face. In an OPs Situation, the only people that should be face-to-face with the Boss are the tanks, so idk where you're getting this crazy idea from.

 

So you have been called out for not knowing anything about the game, but please I can't wait to be told I'm wrong some more, when I know I'm right.

[Reno_Tarshil]

Maybe I missed something on my maurader I know we have the droid cc but a human one what is the name of that skill she is 47 now I'm assuming I got it by now...

 

It's more of Short Duration Stun, than a full fledged one minute CC.

[kidatwood]

do you mean intimidating roar?

 

What I would consider a true cc is 60 second stopping something for 6 seconds I wouldn't consider it a cc tool. What good is it situational at best maybe fleeing a fight.

[mmjarec]

This pretty much shows, you have no idea about any of the classes in the game. Let's begin.

 

He can pick and choose what buffs and debuffs to have because that's how it works in the game. As you advance the game your class buff will eventually be able to buff you with all 4 Class Buffs. There are also Stims and Adrenals you can use. Finally not every class can apply an armor debuff, like a Shadow can't. Therefor using a parse on a Dummy as a Shadow or Sin can't provide an Optimal OPs DPS behaviour. So that's out the window as being legit.

 

As for the Execute on the Dummy thing. No Class that has an Execute can trigger their Execute except for Vigilance Guardians/Vengeance Juggernauts who take the talent "Keening"/"Destroyer" which has a chance to grant the ability to use your Execute at any Health Range. So that's disproven.

 

Not Every Class get's a CC. Your Precious Guardians/Juggernauts and Vanguards/Powertechs do not have a CC. Of the Three Tanks only Shadows and Assassins have a CC. So, no, not every class has a CC and in this regard Having a Tank that can CC is an advantage over the other two. All can CC, disproved.

 

Speaking of CC, that's utility. Useless in PvP? No, useful for stealing nodes and messing with would be afkers from stealth or forcing a CC breaker. Snipers have a Roll, but unlike the Operative roll where they can roll continously, this Roll only goes forward once and puts them into Cover, so basically it's not a roll and just a glorified Cover. Also Sentinels and Marauders can only CC Droids. They cannot CC Humanoids.

 

Ranged DPS, do more DPS, because they're ranged and can stand at range to do DPS, where as Melee have to either take a moment to leap in or run over before they can DPS.

 

In a 1 on 1 Situation all classes have to fight Face-to-Face. In an OPs Situation, the only people that should be face-to-face with the Boss are the tanks, so idk where you're getting this crazy idea from.

 

So you have been called out for not knowing anything about the game, but please I can't wait to be told I'm wrong some more, when I know I'm right.

 

If i dont know much the. You know nothing.most Every class gets at least a snare which is cc

 

On parses you cant rely on all four buffs because in "real" gameplay not everyone has all four. Brish up on your definition of cc its not just sap. Intimdating roar being an example

 

Say your right and not every class hass cc. So why arent we on par with the classes that do

 

It boils down to being able to mitigate incoming damage thats essentially what it is. And if roll gets you out of range or heal mitigates damage its just as good as sap that has to be used out of combat

 

You are sayig low dps is justified with an ability that is not usuable in pvp and highly situational in pve? Sheesh no brainer id give it up for constantly higher dps like other classes ave c that also happen to have cc

 

So maybee its you that dont know the classes i never claimed to i claimed to know about sins maras and sorcs ops and juggs. Obviously you know nothing of pvp because there is no such thing is face to face 1v1 pvp in warzones

 

Your argument makes no sense to say a ranged class with less detriment from their range is ok to do so much more insane dmg that someone who has to melee and is guaranteed to wipe

 

Like i said it doesnt matter anyone its not a discussion if they are gimp. They are and torparse proves it. Nobody with a brain beleives your cherry picked parses when they can go do a general search on their own and see this

 

Sins 2800 dps

Other classes 3000 plus dps

 

Thats balance!!

Edited September 16, 2013 by mmjarec
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