A petition for my sanity

[Noodlegotagun]

Whenever I'm tanking, whether it be on my Vanguard, Powertech, Guadian or Assassin, There is always that one or two consulars/inquisitors constantly running up beside me and scattering enemies all over the place with wave/overload, even when asked to stop. Because "It's an AOE, it damage them."

 

Problems? First and foremost, you're making it harder for your tank to maintain threat, and keep enemies in a neat pile for your allies to AOE to death. Second, well. I've already said it. It screws with everyone else's AOE, making everything slower than it has to be.

 

That should be explanation/reason enough to stop, right? Not for some. So I come to the table with a compromise that I think works for everyone. Here goes.

 

Add a single point talent to each advanced classes' talent trees (probably healing tree for sage/sorc, and tanking tree for shadow/assassin) that REMOVES the knockback effect of overload/force wave. you still get your AOE damage, and everyone else gets to keep from pulling their hair out in frustration. Win/Win. (also, for shadows, you could likely alter a talent further down the tree to increase the threat generated by overload as well, just to make it even more tempting to use)

 

Now I know a lot of people are going to point out issues with this, as I've even toyed with the idea of combining the effect into the sorc healign tree's ability that makes overload heal party members (PVP being the biggest potential problem, as that knockback can be a lifesaver) but again. It's an idea, and I know for a fact I'm not the only tank getting frustrated by this.

 

Just because I know how frustrating it can be, I keep overload on a very obscure keybind, and only use it when it's absolutely necessary (which in all honesty is mostly just when I want to knock an enemy off a cliff to save time.) Is it really worth it though? For a single talent point, you can get so much more out of the ability for the other 99% of the game, that's not knocking enemies off cliffs for a giggle.

[DarthSpekulatius]

in the end the people that do AOE knockback and Scatter stuff around just for the sake of scattering won't take the skill point, for that would make it impossible to scatter stuff around.

*shrug* that's just how it is if they don't listen then it's up to you if you think you'll be able to finish whatever you're doing together with them.

 

 

the AOE damage from Overload/Force wave is so laughably small just tell them not to use it/only use it if they can Bump stuff off cliffs (I assume the only reason why it deals any damage is for destealth Purposes)

your proposed change won't change anything nobody will take the Point unless they were forced to do so (effectively nerfing their utility)

the knockback is the only Reason to use that Skill and it's not easily turned on/off for the times you do need it so even if there was a Reason to use the skill without the knockback people won't take the point because sometimes you might need it.

 

Edited September 12, 2013 by DarthSpekulatius

[Noodlegotagun]

in the end the people that do AOE knockback and Scatter stuff around just for the sake of scattering won't take the skill point, for that would make it impossible to scatter stuff around.

*shrug* that's just how it is if they don't listen then it's up to you if you think you'll be able to finish whatever you're doing together with them.

 

 

the AOE damage from Overload/Force wave is so laughably small just tell them not to use it/only use it if they can Bump stuff off cliffs (I assume the only reason why it deals any damage is for destealth Purposes)

your proposed change won't change anything nobody will take the Point unless they were forced to do so (effectively nerfing their utility)

the knockback is the only Reason to use that Skill and it's not easily turned on/off for the times you do need it so even if there was a Reason to use the skill without the knockback people won't take the point because sometimes you might need it.

 

Yeah, that's the biggest problem/fear I have with it too. The people who need it, won't take it. Too many times I've begged and pleaded (along with the rest of the DPS in the instance) for them to stop, but 9 times out of 10, they get spiteful, and do it even more... It's so excrutiatingly hard to fix problems like this, simply because the only sure-fire way to do it would be to require an IQ test before you can play the class. XD

[Grumpftard]

Here's where I'm different. I'm a tank, and I use the ever living ***** out of Overload. It is the main ability I use on the pull for almost every trash pack. It makes it that much easier to build threat, position mobs exactly where I want them and just makes life fun.

The down side? Arty see, Arty do. DPS sees me use it, so they start using it. Now the efforts I just put into positioning mobs has been thwarted by a knucklehead. Granted it rarely happens in my groups. I do not seem to have been caught in the overload epidemic you describe, by typically however, after I explain that I'm doing it to position the mobs and for them not to do it, they usually stop.

On the rare occasion i get an arseclown that won't stop, he just gets kicked.

 

But hands down...I lurves me sum Overload!

[Scovina]

Here's where I'm different. I'm a tank, and I use the ever living ***** out of Overload. It is the main ability I use on the pull for almost every trash pack. It makes it that much easier to build threat, position mobs exactly where I want them and just makes life fun.

The down side? Arty see, Arty do. DPS sees me use it, so they start using it. Now the efforts I just put into positioning mobs has been thwarted by a knucklehead. Granted it rarely happens in my groups. I do not seem to have been caught in the overload epidemic you describe, by typically however, after I explain that I'm doing it to position the mobs and for them not to do it, they usually stop.

On the rare occasion i get an arseclown that won't stop, he just gets kicked.

 

But hands down...I lurves me sum Overload!

 

You would build threat so much faster if you would use discharge/force breach and then start tab targeting. Overload is extremely situational and it is almost always a bad idea to use it. There are times when you can use it to push a mob off a ledge or into a wall which is great. However if you want to position your targets then you should be running up to the biggest pack and smacking them with discharge/ force breach and/or hitting them with Wither/Slow Time both of which generate a huge amount of threat then using force pull on the stragglers. Or better yet LOS pull around a corner so they will be grouped up and you can hit them with the skills aforementioned.

 

Overload is soooooo NOT an AOE damage skill though it has a minute amount of damage attached to it or a threat builder. Stop using it as such people. Especially you sorcs that would be better off killing single targets than to waste your time running up and using overload. The GCD you spend using that ability unless you are totally swamped (which means the tank isn't doing their job and you have much bigger problems) is so much better spent doing your normal rotation.

Edited September 19, 2013 by Scovina

[Grumpftard]

You would build threat so much faster if you would use discharge/force breach and then start tab targeting. Overload is extremely situational and it is almost always a bad idea to use it. However if you want to position your targets then you should be running up to the biggest pack and smacking them with discharge/ force breach and/or hitting them with Wither/Slow Time both of which generate a huge amount of threat then using force pull on the stragglers. Or better yet LOS pull around a corner so they will be grouped up and you can hit them with the skills aforementioned.

 

Overload is soooooo NOT an AOE damage skill though it has a minute amount of damage attached to it or a threat builder. .

 

I would have to disagree. Running up to the biggest pack of ranged mobs has no effect on their placement since they don't move. Yes i can LoS and do so quite often to help negate Alpha Strike damage. Drawback is that other people in the group have a propensity to jack up an LoS pull. I can actually generate as much, if not more threat by Overloading before my wither and discharge. There are other small components to consider. Take into consideration that as a Sin tank, in most random groups, the healer is already plugging away at the moment of contact (for some reason they all think Sins are squishy). Some packs are so spread out that if I just run in and Discharge, then a couple might be just out of range and are still likely to start heading towards the healer immediately Can I grab them a different way? Sure....but OL is easier. OL stuns, which in most cases allows the healer an opportunity to start doing their thing without having to worry about severe spike damage from lots of mobs or from alpha strikes.

Now, I'm in no way saying that OL is some kinda "super aggro tool" or anything or that it does all this wonderful damage. And I never use it other than the initial pull, but since it's cast pre-contact, it allows you to stack you main abilities during the fight.

Sin tanking is all about finesse. And bottom line, OL is a tool that people fail to see the advantages of because they are too busy trying to Brute Force tank (which is the main reason why most players totally fail at Sin tanking and switch to Juggs)

 

Side Note* problem with Tab targeting for threat is that the 5th or 6th mob doesn't get hit for 3-4 GCDs. And it never fails that some knucklehead ranged DPS honed in on THAT particular mob and is gonna peel him. Never been a fan of tab-to-threat on large packs. Sin AoE threat is insanely high already. Just no real need for it.

Edited September 19, 2013 by Grumpftard

[Scovina]

I would have to disagree. Running up to the biggest pack of ranged mobs has no effect on their placement since they don't move. Yes i can LoS and do so quite often to help negate Alpha Strike damage. Drawback is that other people in the group have a propensity to jack up an LoS pull. I can actually generate as much, if not more threat by Overloading before my wither and discharge. There are other small components to consider. Take into consideration that as a Sin tank, in most random groups, the healer is already plugging away at the moment of contact. Some packs are so spread out that if I just run in and Discharge, then a couple might be just out of range and are still likely to start heading towards the healer immediately Can I grab them a different way? Sure....but OL is easier. OL stuns, which in most cases allows the healer an opportunity to start doing their thing without having to worry about severe spike damage from lots of mobs or from alpha strikes.

Now, I'm in no way saying that OL is some kinda "super aggro tool" or anything or that it does all this wonderful damage. And I never use it other than the initial pull, but since it's cast pre-contact, it allows you to stack you main abilities during the fight.

Sin tanking is all about finesse. And bottom line, OL is a tool that people fail to see the advantages of because they are too busy trying to Brute Force tank (which is the main reason why most players totally fail at Sin tanking and switch to Juggs)

 

Coming from a healer standpoint you could not be more wrong. Point blank bro there is no spot for Overload in a tanks rotation. At the start of a fight or anywhere else unless absolutely needed for some odd reason. You obviously do not watch your healers health bar if you think this is correct. I can't tell you how many times I have had to pop cd's just to heal through all the aggro because as soon as you get hit by 4 to 5 mobs and I have to drop a few big heals on you they are now on me because your front loaded threat is too weak.

 

You say that you explain to the dps and heals not to use the skill when you are in a FP. Tell me exactly how much harder it is if they agree with you to say hey I am going to los this pack stand at point X? Check the parses of any top assassin tank and you will almost never see overload used at all let alone to start a pull. There is a reason for that.

Edited September 19, 2013 by Scovina

[Scovina]

Side Note* problem with Tab targeting for threat is that the 5th or 6th mob doesn't get hit for 3-4 GCDs. And it never fails that some knucklehead ranged DPS honed in on THAT particular mob and is gonna peel him. Never been a fan of tab-to-threat on large packs. Sin AoE threat is insanely high already. Just no real need for it.

 

The problem you are having is because the dps isn't focus firing so that is everyones queue to get them doing it. It doesn't excuse being a lazy tank. Yes tanks threat gen in this game is high but when you use subpar abilities then that is the reason a dps peels off you. If you had followed a proper rotation starting the pull then nothing they would do would pull the mob off you unless they severely outgear you or you don't do your rotation properly.

 

This is all I will say on this as I don't have time to waste on it further.

Edited September 19, 2013 by Scovina

[ChrisRedmond]

No one ever thinks about the tank. It's just always his fault.

 

After 2 years almost since I abandoned tanking, I have now gotten back into it. It is truly for masochists.

 

I should point out, I'm enjoying it though!

[Grumpftard]

Coming from a healer standpoint you could not be more wrong.

 

You obviously do not watch your healers health bar if you think this is correct.

 

I can't tell you how many times I have had to pop cd's just to heal through all the aggro because as soon as you get hit by 4 to 5 mobs and I have to drop a few big heals on you they are now on me because your front loaded threat is too weak.

 

Check the parses of any top assassin tank and you will almost never see overload used at all let alone to start a pull.

 

Coming from a TANK, I'm not wrong

 

I DO watch their health bars....they are always full

 

If you are having to pop CDs because a sin tank lost threat to a HEALER, then that tank should really consider suicide as an option.

 

I DO check parses, and I AM one of the top tanks in one of the top guilds.

 

I also get the privilege of getting comments from groups such as "How come OUR sin tank can't do what you do"

I'm not saying everyone should do what I do, I am and always have been the exception to the rule on things and I agree that DPS has no business using OL in a group setting.

But I have learned the vast subtleties of Sin tanking and will always outperform. Everyone *****es about how Sins are no longer competitive and broken and you can't do content with them. I'm the outlier that says otherwise.

So feel free to reply and flame away. I know better, so do my guildies, and the others I play with.

[Grumpftard]

The problem you are having is because the dps isn't focus firing so that is everyones queue to get them doing it. It doesn't excuse being a lazy tank. Yes tanks threat gen in this game is high but when you use subpar abilities then that is the reason a dps peels off you. If you had followed a proper rotation starting the pull then nothing they would do would pull the mob off you unless they severely outgear you or you don't do your rotation properly.

 

This is all I will say on this as I don't have time to waste on it further.

 

You mean the problem I'm NOT having....because as I stated... I don't play the tab target game, and i don't get pulled from. Because while OL might be a subpar "talent" that gets used before the fight starts....trying to tab thru targets to build threat is a subpar "tactic" that leads to stuff getting pulled.

 

And since this is all you will say on this and don't have time to waste on it further. I gotta go find another thread

Was a good convo though....thanks.