You know you're trying to be milked when...

[AlaricSevGirl]

No, TUXs I am not offended. Stop projecting.

 

This is a gaming forum. There is NO general consensus about anything. Which is why this discussion about the price of the dyes in direct sale continues. If there was consensus.. there would be no continuing discussion.

 

Stop conflating.

 

By the way... how is it greedy that they sell something for a price that is notably less then the cost to acquire the same item before it was offered for direct sale? How's that work exactly? It sounds a lot more like they changed the cost to acquire DOWNWARD both in terms of CCs and ultimately in game credit prices on the GTN.

 

I've noticed you pile on to the discussion multiple times in multiple threads declaring the price outrageous or ridiculous.. yet you have never provided comment as to what price would be acceptable.

 

Disagree and I am a TOR addict, spend every free minute in the game. Yup, I don't have a life, but anyway....

 

There would be a consensus if BW dropped the prices to a reasonable rate and I spent 180.00 on cartel packs so it isn't about the money, it's about the principle of a one time use dye going for such a ridiculous, gouging price.

Edited September 9, 2013 by AlaricSevGirl

[CosmicKat]

A dye pack can be used for the life of the game as well. If you decide to change your armor or change the color that's on you.

 

I don't see why people are so stuck up about BioWare trying to create a "luxury" level with some items. They picked these two colors to be rare, and have made their availability. There are plenty of good color combos that are cheaper, or craftable, heck, even the security key dye isn't bad.

 

None of which explains WHY anyone would choose to make dyes a rare luxury item.

 

Or why a game that is really becoming a laughing stock for its perceived gouging would go into full turbo mode with the gouging.

 

EA/Bioware may not care or pay attention to the horrible press and attention these moves draw, but the recent announcements that Wildstar and ESO are not going to be F2P would seem to indicate that their competition do pay attention and that they are learning "what not to do".

[Andryah]

A dye pack can be used for the life of the game as well. If you decide to change your armor or change the color that's on you.

 

I don't see why people are so stuck up about BioWare trying to create a "luxury" level with some items. They picked these two colors to be rare, and have made their availability. There are plenty of good color combos that are cheaper, or craftable, heck, even the security key dye isn't bad.

 

/Agree.

 

I think the unspoken issue here is that there is a conflict within the player as follows:

 

1) super rare dye is super desired

2) super desire is not backed up by willingness to pay for fulfillment BECAUSE dyes are undervalued in the players minds as a disposable entity.

 

In essence the players desire is incongruent with the players value assessment of what is desired.. so they expect the developer to fix that incongruency for them.

 

Then the above digresses to.. Bioware should do it like GW2.. or <insert your favorite MMO here>. Which while there is a certain truth to the statement.. is not relevant as this is not GW2.

 

Like everything inside an MMO.. you either value it enough to pay for it (in time, credits, CCs, whatever) OR you don't. Simple value assessment by the player.. and it's OK if you cannot justify it on your value equation. The problem is now days.. players demand that any value equation that is broken for the player.. they insist the devs fix it for them. Why not just do without? Seriously... value not met.. do without.

 

Personally, the B/B and W/W dyes will never pass my personal value equation.. so I simply do without and use other dyes instead.

Edited September 9, 2013 by Andryah

[Aizen]

You completely disregarded the first part of my comment so that you could try to school me on allegedly not reading and understanding what you wrote. Could you be any more ironic?

 

So again... why is this new sales model so rage worthy.. when the old sales model (which typically cost a player 5x as much for a B/B dye) not rage worthy?

 

Absolute fail Andryah. disappointing and pathetic.

 

School you? WTH are you talking about? You made assumptions not me and this is how you respond when that is pointed out?.. Stop acting like I am challenging you when you challenged me and wrongfully so. This isn't a forum war. What is wrong with you?

 

At this rate you are being silly.

 

Next you'll say you didn't assume or accuse me of anything. I didn't make a mistake here you did. You've got to be kidding me.. .

[Andryah]

Absolute fail Andryah. disappointing and pathetic.

 

School you? WTH are you talking about? You made assumptions not me and this is how you respond when that is pointed out?.. Stop acting like I am challenging you when you challenged me and wrongfully so. This isn't a forum war. What is wrong with you?

 

At this rate you are being silly.

 

Next you'll say you didn't assume or accuse me of anything. I didn't make a mistake here you did. You've got to be kidding me.. .

 

Now you have just devolved into an ad hominem. Really? Is that where you are going with this now?

 

A discussion where two parties disagree does not need to be degenerated into ad hominems. Just stop it.

 

I disagree with you.. and I did not attack you in the process. I continue to disagree with you, even though you have gone onto an ad hominem path.

 

/dismiss.

Edited September 9, 2013 by Andryah

[AlaricSevGirl]

/Agree.

 

I think the unspoken issue here is that there is a conflict within the player as follows:

 

1) super rare dye is super desired

2) super desire is not backed up by willingness to pay for fulfillment BECAUSE dyes are undervalued in the players minds as a disposable entity.

 

In essence the players desire is incongruent with the players value assessment of what is desired.. so they expect the developer to fix that incongruency for them.

 

Then the above digresses to.. Bioware should do it like GW2.. or <insert your favorite MMO here>. Which while there is a certain truth to the statement.. is not relevant as this is not GW2.

 

Like everything inside an MMO.. you either value it enough to pay for it (in time, credits, CCs, whatever) OR you don't. Simple value assessment by the player.. and it's OK if you cannot justify it on your value equation. The problem is now days.. players demand that any value equation that is broken for the player.. they insist the devs fix it for them. Why not just do without? Seriously... value not met.. do without.

 

Personally, the B/B and W/W dyes will never pass my personal value equation.. so I simply do without and use other dyes instead.

 

 

Making it available in collections would change perception of it completely I think. I know I'd fork over the coins for both dies if they did.

[Aizen]

Now you have just devolved into an ad hominem. Really? Is that where you are going with this now?

 

A discussion where two parties disagree does not need to be degenerated into ad hominems. Just stop it.

 

/dismiss.

 

Again. Nice try.

 

Your assumptions accusations and overall reaction this my quoting has been a serious let down.

 

You are indeed dismissed.

[Andryah]

Making it available in collections would change perception of it completely I think. I know I'd fork over the coins for both dies if they did.

 

I agree. However... why these two dyes.. and why now? Why not all dyes and why not since day one?

 

Why can't dyes be pulled from gear as other mods are?

 

Someday.. all of this will change probably. For now.. it is what it is and it is known up front before you spend a single CC or credit on a dye. IMO.. play it for what it offers.. IF it fits your personal value equation. If not.. don't touch it.. period... pass on it. Plenty of game to play here. Dyes are not the center of the universe.

[jorill]

I agree. However... why these two dyes.. and why now? Why not all dyes and why not since day one?

 

Why can't dyes be pulled from gear as other mods are?

 

Someday.. all of this will change probably. For now.. it is what it is and it is known up front before you spend a single CC or credit on a dye. IMO.. play it for what it offers.. IF it fits your personal value equation. If not.. don't touch it.. period... pass on it. Plenty of game to play here. Dyes are not the center of the universe.

 

I feel the move is pretty greedy by ea/bioware but my only recourse at this time is not to buy it. If they see no one is buying it or less than expected then they would probably modify the price or how its implemented. Blame the other players for buying it as is if you want to scream at someone.

[AGSThomas]

The point is.. there are numerous people in each of the groups I listed. The additional point is that when it comes to a complaint about something in an MMO.. the complainers are more vocal then the people without complaint.

 

It is pointless and completely subjective to declare any popular consensus position of 500K+ players on the basis of a few threads in a forum where only a minority of players every post anyway and those that do post tend to over-represent the negative consensus (because that is human nature.. complain when upset.. when fine, just play).

 

If we don't speak out, who will? Aside from the obvious trollers who complain about things like "theres no holo crafting trainer, this game sucks" We, the forum users are the dedicated players of SWTOR. The vocal community who want to be here longer than a couple of months. The direction of the game is what we care about. You think some F2P player who doesn't visit the forums, doesn't even know what the cartel market is, is going to buy a 20$ dye? its us they are targeting.

[AlrikFassbauer]

If we don't speak out, who will? Aside from the obvious trollers who complain about things like "theres no holo crafting trainer, this game sucks" We, the forum users are the dedicated players of SWTOR. The vocal community who want to be here longer than a couple of months. The direction of the game is what we care about. You think some F2P player who doesn't visit the forums, doesn't even know what the cartel market is, is going to buy a 20$ dye? its us they are targeting.

 

No. I don't believe so. Because the number of people posting here is scaringly low compared to EVERYONE playing SWTOR, currently.

 

No, you overestimate your importance grossly.

 

It's the Sheep that outnumber the Wolves (sometimes by large),

yet the Wolves drive the Sheep.

 

It has never been any different in MMO forums.

 

Just look at the graphic here : http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VocalMinority

 

Also this : http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PanderingToTheBase

Edited September 9, 2013 by AlrikFassbauer

[Arkerus]

If we don't speak out, who will? Aside from the obvious trollers who complain about things like "theres no holo crafting trainer, this game sucks" We, the forum users are the dedicated players of SWTOR. The vocal community who want to be here longer than a couple of months. The direction of the game is what we care about. You think some F2P player who doesn't visit the forums, doesn't even know what the cartel market is, is going to buy a 20$ dye? its us they are targeting.

 

They aren't targetting YOU. They are targetting all the users of the game, many of which never say a word on the forums but yet log in and play every day. How do they know what those users want? Easy, they look at their spending habits and in game metrics.

 

The data speaks volumes. The forums actually provide only a very small piece of the entire picture.

[jedip_enguin]

Until BW makes buying the dye packs mandatory for play you;re not being milked.

[Andryah]

If we don't speak out, who will? Aside from the obvious trollers who complain about things like "theres no holo crafting trainer, this game sucks" We, the forum users are the dedicated players of SWTOR. The vocal community who want to be here longer than a couple of months. The direction of the game is what we care about. You think some F2P player who doesn't visit the forums, doesn't even know what the cartel market is, is going to buy a 20$ dye? its us they are targeting.

 

When you start a thread with the title You know you're trying to be milked when... you are being deliberately provocative, and not seeking to be taken seriously as a dedicated player wanting to be heard by Bioware.

 

As for any item in the CM that you (or anyone else) feels is not fairly priced.. don't buy. That is the most objective and sure form of feedback you can give any business. IF.. as some have magnanimously claimed on behalf of everyone.. this price is absurd.. then surely nobody will pay the price asked right? Surely that in turn means the price will fall into a line where buyers will see value and buy, right?

Edited September 9, 2013 by Andryah

[CosmicKat]

They aren't targetting YOU. They are targetting all the users of the game, many of which never say a word on the forums but yet log in and play every day. How do they know what those users want? Easy, they look at their spending habits and in game metrics.

 

The data speaks volumes. The forums actually provide only a very small piece of the entire picture.

 

They are targeting two groups of people...

 

Adults with more money than they need, which is perfectly fine and acceptable.

 

And children with no concept of "value", intensely susceptible to peer pressure (vanity items), and limited impulse control. This is not acceptable, and in fact, illegal in almost every commercial endeavour that isn't an online game.

[Andryah]

They aren't targetting YOU. They are targetting all the users of the game, many of which never say a word on the forums but yet log in and play every day. How do they know what those users want? Easy, they look at their spending habits and in game metrics.

 

The data speaks volumes. The forums actually provide only a very small piece of the entire picture.

 

Correct.

 

In general.. the forums, particularly the vocal negative segment, believe they are a majority and will be listened to just because they are. When in fact.. even this segment knows it is not.. but wishes it was.

[Andryah]

And children with no concept of "value", intensely susceptible to peer pressure (vanity items), and limited impulse control. This is not acceptable, and in fact, illegal in almost every commercial endeavour that isn't an online game.

 

You mean children who cannot legally own and use credit cards or other forms of electronic payment without parents permission? Children that cannot lawfully make internet purchase unless they are 18 years old? Are these the children you are conflating to speak for?

Edited September 9, 2013 by Andryah

[AGSThomas]

They aren't targetting YOU. They are targetting all the users of the game, many of which never say a word on the forums but yet log in and play every day. How do they know what those users want? Easy, they look at their spending habits and in game metrics.

 

The data speaks volumes. The forums actually provide only a very small piece of the entire picture.

 

I've made this argument in a previous thread. Their vaunted "data" isn't as good as you think it is. If it were they wouldn't have went free to play. They would have used "data" to make the perfect game for the majority of those players you say we don't represent. The real case is, they have very little idea. This is a money grab plain and simple. It will not enhance the game in anyway like an expansion would. More likely their pack sales have dipped so they want to milk whats left of it.

Edited September 9, 2013 by AGSThomas

[TUXs]

When you start a thread with the title You know you're trying to be milked when... you are being deliberately provocative, and not seeking to be taken seriously as a dedicated player wanting to be heard by Bioware.

Stop looking for fights. I say that because it's only "provocative" if you're looking for a fight. It's an attention grabbing thread title that has succeeded in pulling many people, including yourself, into the debate...I'd even bet Bioware employees have been sucked into it because it leaves you wanting to know WHAT it is.

[ImpactHound]

When you start a thread with the title You know you're trying to be milked when... you are being deliberately provocative, and not seeking to be taken seriously as a dedicated player wanting to be heard by Bioware.

 

As for any item in the CM that you (or anyone else) feels is not fairly priced.. don't buy. That is the most objective and sure form of feedback you can give any business. IF.. as some have magnanimously claimed on behalf of everyone.. this price is absurd.. then surely nobody will pay the price asked right? Surely that in turn means the price will fall into a line where buyers will see value and buy, right?

 

I'm also offended of the guy who made millions in the 70's selling Pet Rocks. People will literally buy ANYTHING, and subjectively it's worth campaigning against something really bad to keep it from setting a bad precedent. I understand this is subjective and open to interpretation, I'm sure others (you already do)could make the counter-arguement that it's no one's business to provide negative reviews to an over-priced product in an attempt to encourage better items and prices.

[jedip_enguin]

And children with no concept of "value", intensely susceptible to peer pressure (vanity items), and limited impulse control. This is not acceptable, and in fact, illegal in almost every commercial endeavour that isn't an online game.

 

Are you actually for real with this? Or are you attempting a satire on moral guardians and idiots?

[Andryah]

Their vaunted "data" isn't as good as you think it is. If it were they wouldn't have went free to play.

 

Nor is it anywhere near as bad as you wish it to be.

 

At the end of the day... data is data. If you have good objective data, in depth, you are able to actually make sound business decisions based on broad data (rather then minority interests expressing passion on a gaming forum). While data itself is not sacred by any means... good telemetry about what goes on inside a game in terms of player interests and use is very valuable in the hands of qualified personnel, and infinitely better then any forum discussion about the game.

 

They have free to play, NOT because of bad data. The data clearly showed that the market was dominated by player tastes moving heavily to flexible access business models. We as players can see this ourselves if we simply set bias aside and look at publicly available data and research. They simply chose to over-ride the data and make a run for subscription only in the face of data warning them not to. They took a gamble, and lost, and adjusted for it.. adjusted for it based on what DATA was telling them. And here we are today.

 

Personally, I think they knew the sub model was very risky and likely to fail.. BUT EA is a boxed sales distribution company that likes to make 50-60$ per sale on a new game title.. and you can't do that very well with a freemium model at launch. You can go sub, or you can go Buy-2-Play, but you cannot go MMO Freemium. Why? Because with an MMO Freemium model.. the players have an expectation that the client is free an they get to play for free up to some threshold. If they launched Freemium.. they would have forgone most of the revenue from multiple millions of box sales (be they actual boxes or digital boxes).

Edited September 9, 2013 by Andryah

[Andryah]

Stop looking for fights. I say that because it's only "provocative" if you're looking for a fight. It's an attention grabbing thread title that has succeeded in pulling many people, including yourself, into the debate...I'd even bet Bioware employees have been sucked into it because it leaves you wanting to know WHAT it is.

 

You are funny TUXs.

 

The title sets the thread in a biased context.. from the title onward. I did not pick any fight. I am simply calling a rabbit a rabbit. This thread could have very easily gone in a much more objective discussion direction if the OP had not chosen to use catnip for the title.

 

But I do grant that the choice of title is very attractive to those that are enraged by the sale of dyes on the CM and invites them to pile on. Why can't you just admit it and own it.

Edited September 9, 2013 by Andryah

[AGSThomas]

Nor is it anywhere near as bad as you wish it to be.

 

At the end of the day... data is data. If you have good objective data, in depth, you are able to actually make sound business decisions based on broad data (rather then minority interests expressing passion on a gaming forum). .

 

Why do you assume that in every thread someone that complains about an aspect of the game that they somehow want things to be bad? As if we want the game to fail? You're wrong a great many times, lumping all people that express concerns about where the game we like is headed, into one QQ take or leave it pile. I know what you do. You probably don't even believe half the points you argue, you just want to argue against someone who complains about the product.

 

Most of the people who complain do more for the game than you who blindly defend every aspect. EA wants people like you, hundreds of thousands of them, to blindly eat up anything they put in front of you. We see serious flaws in a game (and its direction) and point them out. If BW/EA doesn't care to listen to their customers, then they will fail. Its as simple as that, and some of us see that and don't want it to happen. So get off your horse and stop arguing to argue. The price for a single use dye being double the rate of what the expansion costs is absurd.

[Andryah]

I'm also offended of the guy who made millions in the 70's selling Pet Rocks. People will literally buy ANYTHING, and subjectively it's worth campaigning against something really bad to keep it from setting a bad precedent. I understand this is subjective and open to interpretation, I'm sure others (you already do)could make the counter-arguement that it's no one's business to provide negative reviews to an over-priced product in an attempt to encourage better items and prices.

 

We as forum members have no control over precedent in an MMO. That's crazy talk IMO.

 

We have a public forum to discuss between ourselves what we like/dislike about the game, why, etc.. and by doing it here in Bioware's living room.. the chances that they see that discussion is greatly improved over <pick your random game forum on the internet>. Which is precisely why they sponsor a forum to discuss the game. But no discussion, regardless of any of our views is by definition any sort of control over the state of the game. They listen to us, sometimes they comment, sometimes they agree with us, sometimes they don't. Regardless.. they run their game in the best manner they see as owners.. for the broadest cross section of the player base. They know they will see all fractions from the player base in the forum.... but they design and progress for the broad player base.. not any single disaffected minority segment.