20 bucks for a one use dye, REALLY?

[Laendser]

This is the really funny part about being labeled a bioware fanboy.

 

When you try to explain why something is, or how a free market works, you get labeled a fanboy.

 

I wish bioware gave out free dyes and we could just color our gear to the end but I'm smart enough to know why things are priced the way they are.

 

The market will support it. Customers will support it. Gamers talk but they don't walk. They buy everything in front of them.

 

Competition is what makes a free market work. Where is the competition here in the artificial scarcity, known as the Cartel Monopoly, err Market?

 

For all practical purposes, in today's world, there are no real free markets. The closest thing to a free market in action within SW:ToR is price undercutting on the GTN. With no way to offer a better product or service (since all items for sale are identical), the only avenue left is to lower the price.

 

Explaining the free market, and blathering on about it with no real knowledge, are two totally different things. Doubleplusgood Fanboy Fail!

Edited September 7, 2013 by Laendser

[Brewski]

All this talk about the dyes and...wth are they?

 

Doing the sensible thing and ignoring the vocal minority screaming in this thread so that the topic can die (or maybe dye) and the rest of us can go back to enjoying the game. There's nothing they can say that will make the posters in this thread happy. Even lowering the cost would do nothing but bring more derision and scorn from people who seem to hate the game, but somehow continue to pay a monthly subscription so they can come on the forum and tell us how much they hate the game, and why we are stupid for playing it.

 

Conspiring at their evil table of doom to make you feel angry about dyes because your tears sustain them.

Or it could be this. Take your pick.

[LordArtemis]

Law of demand is generally known as when a price falls, the corresponding quantity demanded tends to increase. Since price is an wall, the higher the price, the less it is demanded. When the price goes down, demand increases. There is an inverse relationship between price and quantity demanded.

 

The extent to which demand changes with price is known as price elasticity of demand.

 

Inelastic products tend to be those that people must have, but they use only a fixed quantity of it. Dyes are a good example: if Bioware lowers the price of dyes, players may be happy, but they probably won't use more dyes because they already consume the amount they would normally use, regardless of price. Other items are more elastic perhaps, like unlocks and the like.

 

Price elasticity also affects supply on the GTN. Products with an inelastic supply caused by high prices usually have a long lead time, with little control over the price provided and set since it is based on expected demand AND rarity or difficulty to acquire.

 

While demand explains the consumer side of purchasing and selling on the GTN, supply relates to Bioware's desire to make a profit. As price rises, the profit rises as well. As price falls, so does profit. This is a "direct" relationship.

 

To determine the price goods on the CM, Bioware needs to find the price point where playerbase demand equals the amount that they are willing to pay. This is called the equilibrium model.

 

Equilibrium is the point where the demand equals the acceptable price point. This means that there's no lack of interest and no shortage of buyers. A shortage occurs when demand is lower than value based on price point.

 

The great thing about the free market system is that prices and demand tend to move toward equilibrium and, for the most part, keep the market stable. If folks are not happy with a price, the item does not receive patronage and the price falls. A price to value point can only exist against demand for so long before equilibrium will force a lower price.

 

For now, the value to price ratio may be driven by profit desires and may not be supported by demand. If the market requires a correction one will likely occur.

 

Just my slant.

Edited September 7, 2013 by LordArtemis

[Kissakias]

doesnt matter the price ... its the 1 use only problem

prefer 1 use only be the crafted dyes, rest be unlimited uses and we will pay the removal fee like the rest of armor mods

 

in those MMO times when older games had much much better dye systems with more complex color sets (SGW still is the king in dye system) its vital EA to do as i said above (at least)

Edited September 7, 2013 by Kissakias

[DarkSaberMaster]

I find it funny that people are actually defending this lol. But then again. With all the other bs that EAware has done and the same people have defended it to death, I'm not surprised at all.

[Arkerus]

So following this logic, why not remove the Unify Colors feature? Bioware are killing their profits by allowing one $20 dye to make all your gear black. Surely it's much better to make players need to spend $140 to dye all their gear black. It's a free market right? Put it in front of them and they'll buy it.

 

Actually, why stop there? Instead of a combined primary & secondary dye slot, why not implement two separate dye slots. So if you want total black you'll need to fill both slots with black dye, for each armour piece. That would bring in $280 per character. Now we're talking! It's a free market after all, surely no-one will mind?

 

And following that logic, bioware has every right to. And if it falls on its face and forces people out of the game, then they made the wrong choice.

 

By being a better consumer you can help drive the system. So by making a totally assanine point you actually just made the same point I was making.

[Heal-To-Full]

So following this logic, why not remove the Unify Colors feature?

Why, good morning!

http://www.swtor.com/free/features

 

All right, it's not there. Check your local GTN for [unlock: Unify Colors], that's how it's called I believe. Only subs get it otherwise and only while subbed.

[LordArtemis]

BTW, the fact that folks do seem to mind is part of the free market mechanism. Enough folks mind and do not pay it and the price drops.

 

So we will see if this is acceptable or not...based on patronage. Personally I think it would have been nice if it was cheaper but BoP like the SK vendor dyes. That way it couldn't be sold.

 

The good news, IMO, is this should drive down the price of the dyes on the GTN eventually. Looking forward to that.

[Cernow]

And following that logic, bioware has every right to. And if it falls on its face and forces people out of the game, then they made the wrong choice.

 

By being a better consumer you can help drive the system. So by making a totally assanine point you actually just made the same point I was making.

 

How can you be a better consumer in a closed economy? You can't drive a system that is a monopoly. You only have two options, to buy at the price demanded, or decline to buy. Sure, if enough people decline the price might drop, but it just as easily might not because there's no competition.

 

IRL most products have competition, either between retailers or between rival manufacturers. So if I don't like the price for Product X I can either shop around for a retailer offering it at a lower price, or I can perhaps choose a competing Product Y at a lower price point.

 

Most countries have regulations about monpolies and cartels to prevent price fixing and consumer exploitation. But this mostly applies to physical goods and doesn't extend to cash shops operating in online games. There is ery little consumer protection inside these virtual economies. It's largely unregulated and all the balls are in play are in the hands of the retailer (quite literally).

 

So the only options a consumer has here are to agree to the purchase price or walk away. Buying for in-game currency from another player is just agreeing to the purchase price by proxy.

Edited September 7, 2013 by Cernow

[Arkerus]

How can you be a better consumer in a closed economy? You can't drive a system that is a monopoly. You only have two options, to buy at the price demanded, or decline to buy. Sure, if enough people decline the price might drop, but it just as easily might not because there's no competition.

 

IRL most products have competition, either between retailers or between rival manufacturers. So if I don't like the price for Product X I can either shop around for a retailer offering it at a lower price, or I can perhaps choose a competing Product Y at a lower price point.

 

Most countries have regulations about monpolies and cartels to prevent price fixing and consumer exploitation. But this mostly applies to physical goods and doesn't extend to cash shops operating in online games. There is ery little consumer protection inside these virtual economies. It's largely unregulated and all the balls are in play are in the hands of the retailer (quite literally).

 

So the only options a consumer has here are to agree to the purchase price or walk away. Buying for in-game currency from another player is just agreeing to the purchase price by proxy.

 

What in the world are you talking about?

 

That's my point entirely...walking away.

 

If bioware were to make a move so assanine as to charge for practically everything and take away convenience like "match to chest color" then people would walk away from the game, thus proving to bioware that they no longer provided a value to their customer, thus the system is working.

 

Stop acting like this a closed market. No one is forcing you to play TOR. There are 1000s of other games out there and plenty of MMOs. Just because this is Star Wars does not force you to play it. To make that claim is ridiculous.

 

If bioware charges for XYZ, and people buy it and still complain then they aren't really saying anything at all. Talking the talk but not walking the walk is the gaming communities biggest issue. Companies don't nickel and dime because they can, they do it because the market supports it.

[Andryah]

How can you be a better consumer in a closed economy? You can't drive a system that is a monopoly. You only have two options, to buy at the price demanded, or decline to buy. Sure, if enough people decline the price might drop, but it just as easily might not because there's no competition.

 

Actually you have more then two options.

 

1)You can buy on the CM

2) You can choose not to buy on the CM

3)You can buy on the GTN

4) You can choose not to buy at all

5) You can also choose not to play this MMO at all, and play one that meets your personal needs and requirements.

 

And to be more specific about your complaint about "monopoly" and free market...... Microtransaction shops in MMOs are ALWAYS closed markets. In most cases.. they don't even let you trade/sell in game with other players..period. This particular MMO allows players to access all CM content through the in game free market economy where real supply/demand forces dictate actual prices. AND.. the in game economy surrounding CM content is in fact thriving and doing well for players. Very well in fact... both for buyers and for sellers.

 

Personally, I think you are nuts to buy these dyes off the CM if you don't have the free coins from subscription to do so. Many players however do have the coins, and many do indeed use them via the GTN to convert their free coins to credits in game. Why not stop whining, complaining, and demanding.. and just take advantage of the price drops coming inside the game on these once they go on direct sale in the CM? Why not use the system to your advantage instead of digging in you heels and pretending the only way you can get B/B is to pay $20 in incremental real dollars to buy them off the CM? Why not show some basic common sense for a change on this?

 

No MMO is all things to all people. There are plenty of choices in the market. Play an MMO for what it offers you in the forum of entertainment, and play the one that best meets your needs. There is no monopoly in the MMO market, not even WoW.

 

Make a choice.

 

And.. protip: if the dyes for some wild and unlikely reason do not sell well on the CM.. Bioware will do what they do with any item that does not sell well.. they reduce the price (often permanently). As players.. we have the ability to influence the prices on the CM indirectly and at a macro level. Your problem is.. you know these are going to sell well and there will be a truckload of them for sale in game. You know it.. and you don't like it.

Edited September 7, 2013 by Andryah

[branmakmuffin]

I find it funny that people are actually defending this lol. But then again. With all the other bs that EAware has done and the same people have defended it to death, I'm not surprised at all.

I find it funny that people are actually upset about the price. Since, you know, it's an entirely optional feature in a game.

[Cernow]

Your problem is.. you know these are going to sell well and there will be a truckload of them for sale in game. You know it.. and you don't like it.

 

Your problem is you think you know what other people are thinking and make too many assumptions. Stick to talking about what you know for sure and don't put words in other peoples mouths. I have no interest in buying, selling or indeed wearing black/black or black/white dye. And I don't give a fig if every player and his/her grandmother is running around the game wearing black. Quite simply I don't like the pricing model on black dye because I see it as the thin end of the wedge and if they get away for charging high prices for this it'll open the door for more nonsense further down the road.

 

One thing we can agree on though, is if EA to continue down this road then the best policy is to walk away from this game permanently. The game is changing, and not for the better. If the only way to keep the game afloat is with the cartel market, let it sink.

[Ayelinna]

I find it funny that people are actually upset about the price. Since, you know, it's an entirely optional feature in a game.

 

No ones saying they're forcing you to pay it, no ones saying it's not optional, that has nothing to do with this thread. This entire game is optional, you might as well say that too. It's an old and boring argument that is used when you have nothing better to say.

 

People are upset about how expensive it is. Maybe you need to realize that.

[Laendser]

Your problem is you think you know what other people are thinking and make too many assumptions. Stick to talking about what you know for sure and don't put words in other peoples mouths. I have no interest in buying, selling or indeed wearing black/black or black/white dye. And I don't give a fig if every player and his/her grandmother is running around the game wearing black. Quite simply I don't like the pricing model on black dye because I see it as the thin end of the wedge and if they get away for charging high prices for this it'll open the door for more nonsense further down the road.

 

One thing we can agree on though, is if EA to continue down this road then the best policy is to walk away from this game permanently. The game is changing, and not for the better. If the only way to keep the game afloat is with the cartel market, let it sink.

 

Hear hear!

 

Let's burn a Tortanic in effigy and let her finally rest at the bottom of the sea!

[CaineSoto]

Your problem is you think you know what other people are thinking and make too many assumptions. Stick to talking about what you know for sure and don't put words in other peoples mouths. I have no interest in buying, selling or indeed wearing black/black or black/white dye. And I don't give a fig if every player and his/her grandmother is running around the game wearing black. Quite simply I don't like the pricing model on black dye because I see it as the thin end of the wedge and if they get away for charging high prices for this it'll open the door for more nonsense further down the road.

 

One thing we can agree on though, is if EA to continue down this road then the best policy is to walk away from this game permanently. The game is changing, and not for the better. If the only way to keep the game afloat is with the cartel market, let it sink.

 

well said...... just as I said on another post if they have to resort to this type of marketing then it is apparent that the in game content is not giving them there bang for the buck!!!

[LordArtemis]

Being upset, IMO, is not only justified, it is part of the mechanism of the free market system in place. If this price is too high folks will prove it by not purchasing the dye as often as Bioware would like.

 

Then they will reduce the price.

 

I think the complaints are justified as ANY disagreement with price is part of the system. It is the only way that equilibrium can be achieved...the acceptance or rejection by potential patrons.

 

Expecting them to change the price now, before market forces have had a go might be premature, but I don't think it's a bad thing to try, nor do I think it would be a bad thing if the price was adjusted.

 

I do, however, find it odd that folks would generally criticize a commercial company for pursuing profit...gouging, sure, thats not good...but general criticism? Bioware is a commercial company and this is a vehicle for profit...that is a reality that people probably should embrace.

 

Again, due to the fact that people are not FORCED to purchase at this price point, refraining from doing so will send a clear message to Bioware about the price.

[Brewski]

No ones saying they're forcing you to pay it, no ones saying it's not optional, that has nothing to do with this thread. This entire game is optional, you might as well say that too. It's an old and boring argument that is used when you have nothing better to say.

 

People are upset about how expensive it is. Maybe you need to realize that.

 

Out of curiosity, why do you still play this game? I've never seen a positive post from you. Maybe I'm missing them, but it seems to me like there's nothing in the game you like. If that's the case, why do you continue to subscribe to a game you hate?

 

This isn't a troll, but an honest question. People you call "defenders" or "fanbois" obviously continue to play and pay because they are enjoying themselves, but I'm curious about the opposite. By this point it should be obvious that your crusading will not change the game in the ways you seem to want, so why not spend the $15 a month on something you will enjoy?

[Reno_Tarshil]

You people are still talking about this? Some things never dye....

[Andryah]

Again, due to the fact that people are not FORCED to purchase at this price point, refraining from doing so will send a clear message to Bioware about the price.

 

I agree with you.

 

Thing is...the people that are so worked up about this, the same people that fail to even casually assess and realize that the current prices for B/B and W/W dyes just took a heavy nerf by this ... they really really really don't like to be told that they are in no way forced to buy them and to just not buy them. I'm not sure why.. but they clearly feel offended by logic.

 

I guess... because they know that these will actually sell like gang busters.. and that means the price they want to pay on the CM isn't going to happen. The market (ie: players) will have spoken.. and their voice is louder then the minority complaining about prices. Most people can see that while still rare and expensive.. these two dyes are now a whole lot less rare and a lot less expensive to acquire.. both in game and on the CM.

Edited September 7, 2013 by Andryah

[Andryah]

You people are still talking about this? Some things never dye....

 

Haha... well played RT.

[Andryah]

Your problem is you think you know what other people are thinking and make too many assumptions. .

 

Wait.. are you saying these dye won't sell well?.. I think you and I both know they will... it's only a question of how well. And given past history with cartel packs and dye packs.. which are complete chance buys.. there are guaranteed deliverables.. which many people in fact asked for.. some even demanded.

 

... or are you saying that the fact that they will sell well does not bother you? Because all of your posts indicate otherwise.

Edited September 7, 2013 by Andryah

[Arkerus]

I agree with you.

 

Thing is...the people that are so worked up about this, the same people that fail to even casually assess and realize that the current prices for B/B and W/W dyes just took a heavy nerf by this ... they really really really don't like to be told that they are in no way forced to buy them and to just not buy them. I'm not sure why.. but they clearly feel offended by logic.

 

I guess... because they know that these will actually sell like gang busters.. and that means the price they want to pay on the CM isn't going to happen. The market (ie: players) will have spoken.. and their voice is louder then the minority complaining about prices. Most people can see that while still rare and expensive.. these two dyes are now a whole lot less rare and a lot less expensive to acquire.. both in game and on the CM.

 

I'm so sick of trying to explain that. The market will drive wether these stay at their current price of fall. This isn't defending bioware. Its just explaining how things work. If no one buys them then bioware will change the approach. But we all know what's going to happen. Gamers talk but they can't walk.

[Laendser]

...

 

Thing is...the people that are so worked up about this, the same people that fail to even casually assess and realize that the current prices for B/B and W/W dyes just took a heavy nerf by this ... they really really really don't like to be told that they are in no way forced to buy them and to just not buy them. I'm not sure why.. but they clearly feel offended by logic.

 

...

 

What you well know but won't ever talk about is that many people just might be getting upset because there is no in-game way, outside of CM and GTN means, to acquire certain artificially scarce dyes.

 

This is a game. People pay a subscription to access and participate in said game. The constant nickle and dimeing by EA/BioWare to things that many other games provide as due part of the subscription is what makes me upset, I image others as well.

 

For the love of Palpatine, is it so hard to give players in-game content, without trying to monetize everything? If not, then the ruse of subscriptions should be removed completely, and the rotten game in all decency should go freemium only, so we know what we're getting into.

Edited September 7, 2013 by Laendser

[LordArtemis]

I would say something else if I could....

 

The game launched in a state that some folks seemed to find unacceptable. The solution to that was to vote with their feet, which they did in a resounding way. The game lost...I don't remember exactly now, I used to know the correct range but I believe it was 750k to 1.4 million players in less than a year.

 

Approximately 3/4 of the playerbase voted with their feet (speculative, naturally there could have been a wide array of reasons, including normal attrition). Then, and only then, did the game begin to transform into the game that it is today, for better or worse...much wider appeal, most of the draconian restrictions gone.

 

The two biggest ways you can send a message to those you wish to hear it...vote with your feet, vote with your wallet.

 

It is my hope, of the two, you choose the latter.