Realistic Sorcerer Changes?

[Zenocyde]

We all know that the developers did a horrible job of addressing our grievances for our class. in this thread i'd like to propose just a few changes that i'd like to see sorcerers receive, i feel as though they are realistic changes as far as not being over powered.

 

I'd like to propose that that the following talents be switched in the trees, 'Lightning Effusion' and 'Chain Shock', as well as 'Fadeout' and 'Force Suffusion'.

 

Here's a bunch of talent suggestions:

'Lingering Nightmares' affect the duration of Crushing Darkness, Affliction, and Creeping Terror all by 3 seconds.

'Focal Lightning' needs to be fixed as in certain situations Lightning Strike doesn't actually have a 100% chance to proc as the talent specifies.

'Lightning Effusion' for this talent Affliction, Creeping Terror, and Crushing Darkness should all be considered 'force attacks'. this ability also needs to reverted back to 50% from 75%

'Fadeout' to be changed to have a slightly longer duration, 1-3 seconds on top of what it is already. have it additionally grant immunity to knockdowns and physics. I'd also suggest that this talent apply an additional visual effect so it can be clearly seen.

'Chain Shock' be buffed to 75% damage up from 50%.

'Dark Mending' be altered slightly from [0.25/0.5] to [0.35/0.7] reduced cast time on Dark Infusion, and Dark Heals reduced force cost from [2/4] to [5/10]

 

Here's a few ability suggestions:

Unnatural Preservation should be percent life, 20% without the Dark Resilience talent and 35% with it. obviously criticals cannot be eligible for this ability if this is changed to percent life.

Static Barrier should also be percent life, without the Lightning Barrier talent it would be 15% of maximum life of the recipient being protected, if the casters maximum life is more significant it would take priority. The Lightning Barrier talent should then supply an additional 2%.

Force Barrier should no longer be required to be channeled, as it has a 3 minute cooldown and is essentially a self CC.

 

it needs to be mentioned. give Sorcerers 10% more base damage reduction, or have this percentage apply as a +.181% flat damage reduction per level. (then round up)

 

bare in mind that these are just ideas that i have had / had some influence from reading the forums.

 

EDIT: a few things have been edited, as they were oversights

Edited September 4, 2013 by Zenocyde

[skarlson]

There have been plenty of realistic sorc changes proposed including those in the thread you mentioned. They have no plans to listen nor did they in those threads so don't bother. In fact don't even turn their gaze our way as they will simply find something else about us that is OP and nerf that too; that is the the only thing they seem capable of doing.

[countpopeula]

I don't know enough about the class to voice anything other than damage reduction. They need to straight remove light armor from the game, it doesn't make sense. Incoming raid and PvP damage increase at a rate faster than armor scales, this problem is exacerbated by the fact Sorcs have no % based damage reduction cooldown. The only 1 of the 4 base classes that uses light armor gets destroyed in both of it's advanced class forms, if they removed light armor and made it so there is only standard and tank armor levels I think everyone wins. Either that or make Static Barrier/Force Armor be a %HP protection rather than a static number. At a certain point it will no longer make sense to even waste GCD's on the ability as it will protect a negligible amount of health per GCD spent. This change would effectively give all Sorcerer/Sages a defensive cooldown, as well as raid utility. Both Warrior classes have an offensive raid buff, Snipers have a defensive and offensive raid buff, Hunters have offensive buffs and their knockback is practically required to kill NiM Styrak. The only two classes without utility are Operative and Sorc, both healing classes need some utility outside of "offheal to full". There isn't room for offhealing with tight enrages, a %HP bubble = win. Edited September 1, 2013 by countpopeula

[Ghost_Spectre]

There have been plenty of realistic sorc changes proposed including those in the thread you mentioned. They have no plans to listen nor did they in those threads so don't bother. In fact don't even turn their gaze our way as they will simply find something else about us that is OP and nerf that too; that is the the only thing they seem capable of doing.

 

Exactly. It is a wastw of time to even venture a thought, entertain, or put forth any thing that would help either the Sorcerer or Sage in any shape, form, or fashion. If they were serious about improving these classes they'd done something immediately as they did in the case of the Vanguard & Power Tech. Their actions always speak louder than their words. If they truly cared about the Sorcerer/Sage classes, they'd made necessary QoL changes to help where they sorely lack. They did not. All they did was pay lip service...again with their famous statement, "We'll watch, wait, and see."

Edited September 2, 2013 by Ghost_Spectre

[kennethdale]

To address that a majority of sorcerers feel as though madness spec deals less damage than lightning spec i suggest the 'Lingering Nightmares' talent to affect the duration of Crushing Darkness, Affliction, and Creeping Terror all by 3 seconds. (change 'Creeping Terror's CD to 10/10.5 seconds)

 

I don't honestly think this will bring Madness into line with Lightning, simply because you're actually decreasing the amount of damage per tick, thus nerfing even more the burst of Madness. Then again, Madness is very clearly a DoT spec similar to Shadow Priests in WoW (who through vanilla and 2 expansions had burst only on par with Madness via Mind Blast) and I'd argue that it shouldn't have burst for that reason.

 

i'd like to see 'Lightning Effusion' be nerfed back to 50% from 75% as the talent is overpowered. the talent also specifies that it applies to 'force attacks' correct me if i'm wrong but i'd assume that Affliction, Creeping Terror, and Crushing Darkness should all be considered 'force attacks'.

 

I honestly don't see the reasoning for this. Nerfing it by that much still won't create meaningful resource issues for Lightning Sorcerers.

 

'Fadeout' to be changed to an ability with a longer cd, 30 seconds, and duration, 8-10 seconds, have it remove movement-impairing effects and grant immunity to movement-impairing effects, knockdowns, physics, and give a cool animation where it looks like you're actually fading out of existence. (not invisible, obviously)

'Chain Shock' be buffed to 150% damage instead of 50% damage. or buff shocks damage, and make it 100% damage.

 

Not going to take these individually because I disagree with all of them. First off, basically you want Hydraulic Override which is kind of ridiculous. I mean, there is sort of a comparison to Dispersion in WoW but dispersion had a much longer CD than 30 seconds. So you are asking to have Force Speed (which to start off with is the biggest speed increase in the game) and on TOP of that that you get an ability which is Hydraulic Override. As for Chain Shock...You are asking for an instant that has the chance to deal 15k damage with one button click? What other class can do that much damage in 1 GCD for such a low resource cost?

 

'Dark Mending' be altered slightly from [0.25/0.5] to [0.35/0.7] reduced cast time, and dark heals reduced force cost from [2/4] to [5/10]

 

I agree with Dark Mending, but Dark Heal is by far the most throughput of any heal in the game. It is extremely resource inefficient because it NEEDS to be. If it was even slightly viable for spam it would make Sorcs the most OP healers in the game without question.

 

it needs to be mentioned. give inquisitors 10% more base damage reduction, or have this percentage apply as a +.181% flat damage reduction per level. (then round up)

EDIT: turns out 10% MAY be a little extreme, feel free to voice your opinion.

 

It really doesn't need to be mentioned. Sorcerers, in their current iteration, wear light armor. Why on God's green earth would light armor mitigate damage? How does that work? Should my t-shirts be deflecting bullets and knives now because if so, I feel that is something we need to be telling the police to save them a HELL of a lot of money on Kevlar vests.

 

with these changes you would see a dps increase in madness, shock may become relevant in the lightning rotation (pending). madness would no longer suffer from force management issues, and healers would have ...slightly less to complain about. keep bumping so the dev's can see this and make it happen!

 

No, what these changes accomplish is to make Sorcerers extremely over-powered. While I have seen a few changes that seemed reasonable, very few of the ones listed here can be counted as anything close to reasonable. Someone pointed out that a Marauder is going to go after a Sorcerer every time and that that is wrong, but it is absolutely not. That Sorcerer is either going to be dealing out a ton of damage spread over a lot of players (Madness), a ton of damage to one player (Lightning), or be healing and in any of those cases that person needs to die. That is why Sorcerers get focused.

 

If they truly cared about the Sorcerer/Sage classes, they'd made necessary QoL changes to help where they sorely lack. They did not. All they did was pay lip service...again with their famous statement, "We'll watch, wait, and see."

 

What exactly do you mean by "quality of life changes"? Because the changes I've seen mentioned and whined about are not simple "QoL" changes. They are massive overhauls. I seriously cannot even begin to understand how so few other people can see why sorcerer's have gotten the answers they have. Every single class out there is sitting back and saying "Bioware hates us. All they do is nerf us. Its not fair!" When the reality is that there are some changes that need to be made (Sin DPS, Sin Mitigation via cooldowns, and Merc/Mando resource management) every other class is performing on par with each other.

 

You go ahead and say "Well all the top Ranked teams don't use this or that". How many "top" Ranked teams are there? Are you on a top Ranked team that has subsequently kicked you out because of your class? No? Then ****. Try and tell me "But guilds aren't taking X class because Y is better!" Really? How about the world first NiM DG kill that had a Sin tank and a Merc DPS? How about the hundreds of progressions groups that use Sorc DPS, mine included? How about the fully cleared NiM guilds that run with Sin DPS? Are you in a guild that kicked you off of a team because of your class? If not, then ****, if yes, find a better guild or get better at your class. Its as simple as that. People cried and complained that NiM DG was impossible...and then a guild did it. People said "Well you can only do it with Sniper/Mara DPS and Jugg tanks" except they didn't. Go look at ON BOSS dps and tell me if there is a huge disparity because then it won't just be you crying about what you think/feel without any regard to reality.

Edited September 2, 2013 by kennethdale

[countpopeula]

I don't honestly think this will bring Madness into line with Lightning, simply because you're actually decreasing the amount of damage per tick, thus nerfing even more the burst of Madness. Then again, Madness is very clearly a DoT spec similar to Shadow Priests in WoW (who through vanilla and 2 expansions had burst only on par with Madness via Mind Blast) and I'd argue that it shouldn't have burst for that reason.

 

Not going to take these individually because I disagree with all of them. First off, basically you want Hydraulic Override which is kind of ridiculous. I mean, there is sort of a comparison to Dispersion in WoW but dispersion had a much longer CD than 30 seconds. So you are asking to have Force Speed (which to start off with is the biggest speed increase in the game) and on TOP of that that you get an ability which is Hydraulic Override. As for Chain Shock...You are asking for an instant that has the chance to deal 15k damage with one button click? What other class can do that much damage in 1 GCD for such a low resource cost?

 

I agree with Dark Mending, but Dark Heal is by far the most throughput of any heal in the game. It is extremely resource inefficient because it NEEDS to be. If it was even slightly viable for spam it would make Sorcs the most OP healers in the game without question.

 

It really doesn't need to be mentioned. Sorcerers, in their current iteration, wear light armor. Why on God's green earth would light armor mitigate damage? How does that work? Should my t-shirts be deflecting bullets and knives now because if so, I feel that is something we need to be telling the police to save them a HELL of a lot of money on Kevlar vests.

 

Increasing the duration of a DOT does not reduce the tick damage, it adds additional identical damage ticks. It's free damage, especially if the resource cost remains the same it becomes even more resource efficient.

 

You are referencing a different MMO as justification for why changes should not be in this one. Don't, just stop. Also, Orbital Strike and DST have no upper target limit, I've hit 10 mobs with "one button click" DST for a cumulative 35k damage. My Operative healer can add in ridiculous amounts of damage with properly timed Orbitals.

 

The problem is Sorcs don't have any ability to put off a quick succession of high end heals at a burst rate without completely destroying their resource pool. Ryz is the best Sage/Sorc healer I've played with and I can't tell you how many times I've heard "The heal was .2 seconds from going off". Agreed that anything extreme will push the class into the overpowered category, but something needs to be done about this issue in particular.

 

You clearly do not do current NiM content. Light armor issues combined with the fact Sorcs don't have a defensive cooldown based upon % damage redux = a lot of wipes due to dead Sorcs. Barrier's cooldown is too long to effectively protect current NiM damage. If a Sorc/Sage has less than 34005 hitpoints KTU's Dread Bomb attack is a one shot, even through a healer Static Barrier. The same applies to the bots in Olok and the Snipers in Thrasher, there isn't enough mitigation to save a Sorc if RNG takes a dump on your face, which it will quite often. No other class suffers from this because they all have Medium or Heavy armor. As the current attacks scale in damage, % based damage redux becomes more and more powerful. Sorcs have nothing but a single use 100% redux ability, which takes them completely out of the fight for the duration. This is the single greatest issue with Sorc/Sage in PvE.

Edited September 2, 2013 by countpopeula

[kennethdale]

Increasing the duration of a DOT does not reduce the tick damage, it adds additional identical damage ticks. It's free damage, especially if the resource cost remains the same it becomes even more resource efficient.

 

You are correct, I seem to have forgotten that DoT damage is calculated as an amount per tick as opposed to a specific amount over X ticks. My apologies.

 

You are referencing a different MMO as justification for why changes should not be in this one. Don't, just stop. Also, Orbital Strike and DST have no upper target limit, I've hit 10 mobs with "one button click" DST for a cumulative 35k damage. My Operative healer can add in ridiculous amounts of damage with properly timed Orbitals.

 

I'm not 100% sure what you are arguing against here except for your reference to my Chain Shock comment and comparing an ability that hits a single target for 4-5k on crits (DST) to an ability that hits 5-6k on crits (Shock) is completely justified. Keep in mind though, that the AoE portion is completely irrelevant and while DST is free it also has a 17s CD so is significantly less usable in a PvE environment.

 

The problem is Sorcs don't have any ability to put off a quick succession of high end heals at a burst rate without completely destroying their resource pool. Ryz is the best Sage/Sorc healer I've played with and I can't tell you how many times I've heard "The heal was .2 seconds from going off". Agreed that anything extreme will push the class into the overpowered category, but something needs to be done about this issue in particular.

 

And Mercs do? Emergency Scan is a 20s CD. Supercharged Gas requires 30 stacks and even so spamming Healing Scan will make your heat shoot up. Ops are the only ones who can spam big heals without a huge penalty to resources and even so their direct throughput is rather low.

 

You clearly do not do current NiM content.

 

Actually, I do. I have never seen either our Sorc healer or Sorc DPS die to a 1 shot. I once died to a 1-shot but that was Doom on DG because it was our first attempt, I got Doomed twice in a row, and we were sloppy with puddles so there weren't enough up for the second Doom.

 

Light armor issues combined with the fact Sorcs don't have a defensive cooldown based upon % damage redux = a lot of wipes due to dead Sorcs. Barrier's cooldown is too long to effectively protect current NiM damage. If a Sorc/Sage has less than 34005 hitpoints KTU's Dread Bomb attack is a one shot, even through a healer Static Barrier. The same applies to the bots in Olok and the Snipers in Thrasher, there isn't enough mitigation to save a Sorc if RNG takes a dump on your face, which it will quite often. No other class suffers from this because they all have Medium or Heavy armor. As the current attacks scale in damage, % based damage redux becomes more and more powerful. Sorcs have nothing but a single use 100% redux ability, which takes them completely out of the fight for the duration. This is the single greatest issue with Sorc/Sage in PvE.

 

I've seen other people make these claims but I'm having trouble validating them. First, Kephess' Dread Bomb is a giant red circle on the ground, so why are you standing in it? Thrasher's Snipers need to be killed ASAP and shouldn't ever be allowed to get more than one shot off on a player before being picked up or DPS'd. I'm struggling to find parses that align with the claim that Sorcs just up and die and added to that my own personal experience differs. I should note that my Sorcerer is my PvP toon and not my raider. I raid on my Mara but absolutely hate him in PvP. I tried raiding on my Sorc but my guild at the time wanted a melee so I switched and I love the class so I never went back.

[countpopeula]

And Mercs do? Emergency Scan is a 20s CD. Supercharged Gas requires 30 stacks and even so spamming Healing Scan will make your heat shoot up. Ops are the only ones who can spam big heals without a huge penalty to resources and even so their direct throughput is rather low.

 

Actually, I do. I have never seen either our Sorc healer or Sorc DPS die to a 1 shot. I once died to a 1-shot but that was Doom on DG because it was our first attempt, I got Doomed twice in a row, and we were sloppy with puddles so there weren't enough up for the second Doom.

 

I've seen other people make these claims but I'm having trouble validating them. First, Kephess' Dread Bomb is a giant red circle on the ground, so why are you standing in it? Thrasher's Snipers need to be killed ASAP and shouldn't ever be allowed to get more than one shot off on a player before being picked up or DPS'd. I'm struggling to find parses that align with the claim that Sorcs just up and die and added to that my own personal experience differs. I should note that my Sorcerer is my PvP toon and not my raider. I raid on my Mara but absolutely hate him in PvP. I tried raiding on my Sorc but my guild at the time wanted a melee so I switched and I love the class so I never went back.

 

Both Operatives and Mercs have an emergency resource cooldown that costs nothing, the Sorc's energy cooldown has a huge penalty or a still pretty serious penalty. Ops and Mercs can burst insanely when needed, Sorcs cannot with serious penalties.

 

NiM Thrasher, NiM Olok Assault Droids, and before Kell Dragon gearing KTU all one shot our Sorcs on a fairly regular basis. You cannot just "walk out of" Dread Bomb when it targets you buddy. When the group is 1/4 Sorcs, you can bet one of them will target a Sorc. Snipers cannot be taunted from the ground reliably, and WILL get shots off by the time the tank can taunt. We have two top 1% Sorcs in our raid group, they both have the exact same gripes about their inability to survive RNG based damage, or unavoidable raid damage. Every NiM T6 Lots of Missiles phase our Sorcs go from full health to 30%, the rest of us sit anywhere from 60-80%. That's all you need to see to know there's an issue.

Edited September 2, 2013 by countpopeula

[skarlson]

Whining about whiners. A classic response. KN, I do believe this has been stated enough that if you spent less time whining about whiners and more time reading you would have read this more than once but here you go. Doable and optimal are entirely different things. What are the top reasons you would take a suboptimal class to get the job done? You don't have anyone on who runs the optimal class or enough of said class. You place fellowship of your guild above optimal and so your team does more work for the same end.

 

That doesn't mean things are fine in candy land. It simply means there are other factors that determine or force certain compositions. You get stuck in a ranked pvp match with all sorc healers, would op healers not have been better? Ofc they would and anyone who says otherwise shouldn't be playing PVP. To say see they did it ur fine so eat cake is both irrelevant and a copout.

 

::EDIT::

 

I forgot to add this. I have never seen it therefore it didn't happen because I see all and know all; you are liars! No? Then stow it because that is what you must be prepared to say if you are going to dispute what other's say. Choose, arrogance or abandon your current line of reasoning.

Edited September 2, 2013 by skarlson

[countpopeula]

Whining about whiners. A classic response. KN, I do believe this has been stated enough that if you spent less time whining about whiners and more time reading you would have read this more than once but here you go. Doable and optimal are entirely different things. What are the top reasons you would take a suboptimal class to get the job done? You don't have anyone on who runs the optimal class or enough of said class. You place fellowship of your guild above optimal and so your team does more work for the same end.

 

That doesn't mean things are fine in candy land. It simply means there are other factors that determine or force certain compositions. You get stuck in a ranked pvp match with all sorc healers, would op healers not have been better? Ofc they would and anyone who says otherwise shouldn't be playing PVP. To say see they did it ur fine so eat cake is both irrelevant and a copout.

 

::EDIT::

 

I forgot to add this. I have never seen it therefore it didn't happen because I see all and know all; you are liars! No? Then stow it because that is what you must be prepared to say if you are going to dispute what other's say. Choose, arrogance or abandon your current line of reasoning.

 

lolwut?

[OldSpiceSwag]

doesnt matter, game will be dead until the next class balancing anyways, good or bad

[Prototypemind]

It's clear something needs to be done for both Inquisitor ACs. There are parses showing the OHKs that we suffer that no one else does on a regular basis. My Jugg is still not geared to the extent of my Sin and even with no augs, low level relics, and no set bonuses he is continually easier to keep in 55HM FPs and SM raids. It's easy to understand that each class has to have pros and cons, but damage that is incapable of being offset no matter how skilled the players involved are is ridiculous.

 

The "I've never seen it so it can't be true" argument has no place in any of these discussion threads. If you want the proof, the parses exist and the posts of experienced raiders discussing this are everywhere.

[Chemic_al]

I tried raiding on my Sorc but my guild at the time wanted a melee so I switched and I love the class so I never went back.

 

Says it all right there, they didn't want a sorc dps.... now why was that? Edit; I'm going to call bs on "they wanted a melee"*. And then you raid on a mara of all classes and have the gall to say sorcs are wanted and viable.

 

Incredible.

 

*I'm going to wager they wanted the utility and crazy dps of a mara over a sorc, becuase if it was just melee dps, you could have chosen powertech, assassin, juggernaut or even operative but no, you plumped for the overperforming overpowered one.... Curious isn't it?

Edited September 2, 2013 by Chemic_al

[glocklB]

Some criticism for you

 

To address that a majority of sorcerers feel as though madness spec deals less damage than lightning spec i suggest the 'Lingering Nightmares' talent to affect the duration of Crushing Darkness, Affliction, and Creeping Terror all by 3 seconds. (change 'Creeping Terror's CD to 10/10.5 seconds)

Oh, no, please. Everyone now complains about lack of burst in madness spec, let's spread the damage even more... Let's just make dots duration 90s, so once sorc puts his (4.2k / 30 ticks = 140 damage per tick omg) dots on anyone you can't even dream to cc them soon. but ye, it's awesome 140 damage every 3 seconds.

 

In addition, this skill does not increase base damage of ability afaik (I'm not 100% sure about this point, but I believe it is true), why would anyone want to spread its damage even more then it is right now? I believe I tested it quite long ago, maybe even before 2.0, and it seemed to decrease damage per tick.

 

'Chain Shock' be buffed to 150% damage instead of 50% damage. or buff shocks damage, and make it 100% damage.

Waaaay too much. Right now main shock crits for ~4k, you want off-shock hitting for 6k? Really? This ability is on 6s cooldown. It's just another way to make an auto-win ability.

 

it needs to be mentioned. give inquisitors 10% more base damage reduction, or have this percentage apply as a +.181% flat damage reduction per level. (then round up)

Oh how I would like to have more ways to reduce damage input, but it's definitely too much. Sorcs aren't so much behind other classes in terms of survivability. In fact the only problem with sorc survivability is keeping sorc alive under strong focus fire (current 8v8 ranked wzs), because in 1v1 for example sorcs survivability is much higher then most classes can provide.

 

We have yet to see what's gonna be in 4v4 ranked wzs, but it's clearly gonna be something between 8v8 and 1v1, and it might even happen to be balanced more or less with other classes (with few well known exceptions of course).

[Chemic_al]

As for realistic change: give us shroud/resilience already.

[glocklB]

I don't honestly think this will bring Madness into line with Lightning, simply because you're actually decreasing the amount of damage per tick, thus nerfing even more the burst of Madness. Then again, Madness is very clearly a DoT spec similar to Shadow Priests in WoW (who through vanilla and 2 expansions had burst only on par with Madness via Mind Blast) and I'd argue that it shouldn't have burst for that reason.

 

 

 

I honestly don't see the reasoning for this. Nerfing it by that much still won't create meaningful resource issues for Lightning Sorcerers.

 

 

 

Not going to take these individually because I disagree with all of them. First off, basically you want Hydraulic Override which is kind of ridiculous. I mean, there is sort of a comparison to Dispersion in WoW but dispersion had a much longer CD than 30 seconds. So you are asking to have Force Speed (which to start off with is the biggest speed increase in the game) and on TOP of that that you get an ability which is Hydraulic Override. As for Chain Shock...You are asking for an instant that has the chance to deal 15k damage with one button click? What other class can do that much damage in 1 GCD for such a low resource cost?

 

 

 

I agree with Dark Mending, but Dark Heal is by far the most throughput of any heal in the game. It is extremely resource inefficient because it NEEDS to be. If it was even slightly viable for spam it would make Sorcs the most OP healers in the game without question.

 

 

 

It really doesn't need to be mentioned. Sorcerers, in their current iteration, wear light armor. Why on God's green earth would light armor mitigate damage? How does that work? Should my t-shirts be deflecting bullets and knives now because if so, I feel that is something we need to be telling the police to save them a HELL of a lot of money on Kevlar vests.

 

 

 

No, what these changes accomplish is to make Sorcerers extremely over-powered. While I have seen a few changes that seemed reasonable, very few of the ones listed here can be counted as anything close to reasonable. Someone pointed out that a Marauder is going to go after a Sorcerer every time and that that is wrong, but it is absolutely not. That Sorcerer is either going to be dealing out a ton of damage spread over a lot of players (Madness), a ton of damage to one player (Lightning), or be healing and in any of those cases that person needs to die. That is why Sorcerers get focused.

 

 

 

What exactly do you mean by "quality of life changes"? Because the changes I've seen mentioned and whined about are not simple "QoL" changes. They are massive overhauls. I seriously cannot even begin to understand how so few other people can see why sorcerer's have gotten the answers they have. Every single class out there is sitting back and saying "Bioware hates us. All they do is nerf us. Its not fair!" When the reality is that there are some changes that need to be made (Sin DPS, Sin Mitigation via cooldowns, and Merc/Mando resource management) every other class is performing on par with each other.

 

You go ahead and say "Well all the top Ranked teams don't use this or that". How many "top" Ranked teams are there? Are you on a top Ranked team that has subsequently kicked you out because of your class? No? Then ****. Try and tell me "But guilds aren't taking X class because Y is better!" Really? How about the world first NiM DG kill that had a Sin tank and a Merc DPS? How about the hundreds of progressions groups that use Sorc DPS, mine included? How about the fully cleared NiM guilds that run with Sin DPS? Are you in a guild that kicked you off of a team because of your class? If not, then ****, if yes, find a better guild or get better at your class. Its as simple as that. People cried and complained that NiM DG was impossible...and then a guild did it. People said "Well you can only do it with Sniper/Mara DPS and Jugg tanks" except they didn't. Go look at ON BOSS dps and tell me if there is a huge disparity because then it won't just be you crying about what you think/feel without any regard to reality.

 

+++ hell a lot

[Zenocyde]

Oh, no, please. Everyone now complains about lack of burst in madness spec, let's spread the damage even more... Let's just make dots duration 90s, so once sorc puts his (4.2k / 30 ticks = 140 damage per tick omg) dots on anyone you can't even dream to cc them soon. but ye, it's awesome 140 damage every 3 seconds.

 

yeah, sorry, but you're wrong, increasing the duration doesn't lower the damage at all, it just increases the amount of ticks. you're right however that sorcs lack burst, but madness is hardly designed for burst, this could be slightly fixed by making the application of affliction apply a tick of damage instead of having the tick be delayed by 1.5 seconds

 

Waaaay too much. Right now main shock crits for ~4k, you want off-shock hitting for 6k? Really? This ability is on 6s cooldown. It's just another way to make an auto-win ability.

this is actually true and was an oversight, editing my post.

 

Oh how I would like to have more ways to reduce damage input, but it's definitely too much. Sorcs aren't so much behind other classes in terms of survivability. In fact the only problem with sorc survivability is keeping sorc alive under strong focus fire (current 8v8 ranked wzs), because in 1v1 for example sorcs survivability is much higher than most classes can provide.

 

they actually are, very far behind in fact, for instance, this is just one example out of ...a lot but, 'Lots of Missiles' from Titan 6 in nightmare mode hits the entire raid for the same amount of damage, however it can easily be seen that sorcerers take almost twice as much damage as every other class from that ability.

Edited September 2, 2013 by Zenocyde

[usernamexists]

Wow. this is going nowhere. despite what some say, Sorc isn't any easy class. i choose it for this reason and its potential. Dramatic and Op changes are going to be ignored and have us taken much less seriously. every class needs some sort of support from another class to make things go smoothly. thats what inspires more groups. may i also suggest if you choose a skill tree, use the advantages and accept the downsides.

 

lets work together on ideas. if you don't like someones idea, comment on an idea you do like instead of wasting energy on explaining why someone is wrong.

 

now i'm going to try to take my own advice.

[kennethdale]

Says it all right there, they didn't want a sorc dps.... now why was that? Edit; I'm going to call bs on "they wanted a melee"*. And then you raid on a mara of all classes and have the gall to say sorcs are wanted and viable.

 

Incredible.

 

*I'm going to wager they wanted the utility and crazy dps of a mara over a sorc, becuase if it was just melee dps, you could have chosen powertech, assassin, juggernaut or even operative but no, you plumped for the overperforming overpowered one.... Curious isn't it?

 

You really haven't learned to shut your mouth? My Sorc is a HEALER they didn't need another Sorc HEALER. I raid with a Sorc DPS. Are you really THAT massively stupid? Even if I had been dps we already HAD a Sorc, a Merc, and a Sniper. Having 4 ranged doesn't have any downsides but for the sake of balance (And because I suspect our RL still doesn't quite believe that not bringing melee would relieve some pressure on the healers just from his long history) asked me to CHOSE between my Juggernaut and my Marauder. My Juggernaut, though decently geared, is a tank and I didn't want to spend time gearing her for DPS and learning a new rotation so I CHOSE my Marauder. My RL did not. He wanted me for my ability, not the class I was brining. I'd bet that if I had had my sin at 55 and geared he would have let me bring that too. You need to REALLY learn when to take your foot out of your mouth because you keep spewing BS and getting it alllllll over yourself.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

Now Sorcs. You want a realistic change? Let's talk about that. First off, don't compare Sorc resource management to Mercs. Merc RM is abysmal and becomes a game of "How long can I spam Rapid Shots without anyone dying". Operative RM on the other hand is waaaaaay too easy at this point to the extent that there really isn't any need to manage anything. That is a problem. But the other issue we run into here is the size of the resource pool. Sorcs have at the least 600 force power, maybe more depending on set bonuses. Also, aside from the debuff from Consumption there is no DR on Sorc regen whereas Ops and Mercs both have smaller pools that penalize them for dipping low. Resource management is tough, but entirely doable. It is entirely possible to manage force as a Sorc, it just gets tough to do sometimes as it should. I have played a healer with infinite mana and that gets boring FAST (Paladin up until 3.2).

 

So another complaint with healing is that since we have very few instant hit heals, our instant throughput is low. There is some validity here but the issue becomes that unless you homogenize the healing classes there are always going to be strengths and weaknesses to each class and the fact is that in high-end Ops, Sorcs are truthfully in a good spot. A lot of negativity gets said about Static Barrier and while I disagree with 99% of it, the fact is that is doesn't scale well. I'm having trouble finding the coefficient listed somewhere but a possible fix is to make it more affected by bonus healing since that would bring it more in line with an actual heal.

 

As for damage, I have posted information about Sorcs parsing on par with every other class in NiM content so I see no reason for a buff there. I was unable to find a parse that supported one-shots but if someone can provide one (for the person who said something like "if I don't see it, I don't believe it" you're an idiot, I looked at my experience and through parses to find evidence that supported 30k+ Dread Bombs, etc and found none) I'd be more than happy to re-evaluate my stance that deaths are happening to people who make mistakes. Ergo, you make a mistake you SHOULD die. Its Nightmare, and it should be a Nightmare. Its not called Fairy-dreamland-fun-times Mode.

[judgeender]

As for damage, I have posted information about Sorcs parsing on par with every other class in NiM content so I see no reason for a buff there. I was unable to find a parse that supported one-shots but if someone can provide one (for the person who said something like "if I don't see it, I don't believe it" you're an idiot, I looked at my experience and through parses to find evidence that supported 30k+ Dread Bombs, etc and found none) I'd be more than happy to re-evaluate my stance that deaths are happening to people who make mistakes. Ergo, you make a mistake you SHOULD die. Its Nightmare, and it should be a Nightmare. Its not called Fairy-dreamland-fun-times Mode.

 

I have mentioned in many prior posts that this is a real problem. When we first did Kephess, I was in full 72s and could barely survive (couple hundred health). One of our other sages that still had 2 pieces that weren't 72s did die. I don't have their logs, but I was able to find this (again, this was when we were learning the fight and we figured out having a healer bubble would offer a little more leeway than using my own - which is what the Devs seem to be suggesting is part of our Defensive CDs):

 

23:24:36.774 Kephess the Undying's Dread Bomb hits Magister for 39633 kinetic damage, causing 39633 threat. (5311 absorbed)

 

No other class faces the same type of close call or potential one-shot from this than a Sage/Sorc.

[gpassucc]

That is why Sorcerers get focused.

 

No. Sorcs get focused because a warrior will look at you and say "oo piece of candy!" and unless you happen to be in your madness 1v1 spec you are basically toast. On my jugg I rarely lose to sorcs/sages unless they are extremely good at madness/balance. Yes I play a sorc as well and love it, they can do decent dps:

http://i.imgur.com/mDG80aH.jpg

But the fact remains that they could really use some type of defensive cd. A few options I think are viable is to

1. Reduce the cd on Unnatural Preservation by 10-20s. Entirely serious the amount of instant cast heals that sorcs have vs ops is pretty ridiculous.

2. Make force surge usable on dark infusion letting sorc healers get a heal in on the run if they have spare stacks. Nothing is worse than getting focused by a warrior as a sorc healer since you really should get few heals off if the warrior is good.

3. Let us cast helpful spells while in Force Barrier.

4. So we don't have too many defensive cds replace Force Barrier with a dmg reduction cd with a 1-2min cd.

[kennethdale]

I have mentioned in many prior posts that this is a real problem. When we first did Kephess, I was in full 72s and could barely survive (couple hundred health). One of our other sages that still had 2 pieces that weren't 72s did die. I don't have their logs, but I was able to find this (again, this was when we were learning the fight and we figured out having a healer bubble would offer a little more leeway than using my own - which is what the Devs seem to be suggesting is part of our Defensive CDs):

 

23:24:36.774 Kephess the Undying's Dread Bomb hits Magister for 39633 kinetic damage, causing 39633 threat. (5311 absorbed)

 

No other class faces the same type of close call or potential one-shot from this than a Sage/Sorc.

 

Can you link the log? Sorry, its part of my job to be suspicious and to investigate and that's what I want to do.

[Chemic_al]

You really haven't learned to shut your mouth? My Sorc is a HEALER they didn't need another Sorc HEALER. I raid with a Sorc DPS. Are you really THAT massively stupid? Even if I had been dps we already HAD a Sorc, a Merc, and a Sniper. Having 4 ranged doesn't have any downsides but for the sake of balance (And because I suspect our RL still doesn't quite believe that not bringing melee would relieve some pressure on the healers just from his long history) asked me to CHOSE between my Juggernaut and my Marauder. My Juggernaut, though decently geared, is a tank and I didn't want to spend time gearing her for DPS and learning a new rotation so I CHOSE my Marauder. My RL did not. He wanted me for my ability, not the class I was brining. I'd bet that if I had had my sin at 55 and geared he would have let me bring that too. You need to REALLY learn when to take your foot out of your mouth because you keep spewing BS and getting it alllllll over yourself.

 

What a charming individual you are. Instead of arguing you spew forth vitriol and insults because you lack anything competent to say and deflect attention away from the core argument.

 

No, I'm not stupid, but the more you comment the more ignorant, arrogant, and clueless you sound. You constantly gainsay players with proven pedigree, and contradict yourself.

 

I should note that my Sorcerer is my PvP toon and not my raider. I raid on my Mara but absolutely hate him in PvP. I tried raiding on my Sorc but my guild at the time wanted a melee so I switched and I love the class so I never went back.

 

Does not mention dps or healer, so anyone would infer you were dps, given you switched to a mara, (ie had 2 healers in Raid already). Of course I wouldn't expect you to understand reasoning or making an inference from given data, but whatever dude. So, I got the inference wrong, doesn't mean it wasn't a reasonable inference. Something you really can't understand, and just show how pathetic you are with your torrent of unwarranted abuse. All because you need to wave that little e-peen of yours about.

 

If ranged doesn't have any downsides, you could (or should have been able to) just have easily convinced them taking sorc dps was fine over your mara. But see, you keep adding more BS to your story. If it was YOU they wanted and not the class, then yet again your sorc should have been fine. Takes just as long to gear one toon as another, no? The more you talk the less your arguments hold water.

 

You need to REALLY learn when to take your foot out of your mouth because you keep spewing BS and getting it alllllll over yourself

 

I'll assume given your limited intelligence and demonstrated lack of coherent logical thought, that that is probably the best you can do. Poor thing. Arrogance and limited intellect are not a good combination. My condolences.

 

Can you link the log? Sorry, its part of my job to be suspicious and to investigate and that's what I want to do.

 

Your job? Lol. Just who do you think you are? You might want to go to a doctor and get checked out, because you are showing signs of being delusional.

[judgeender]

I don't have the link handy at this time. You are welcome to find it on torparse. You can also try to find logs by Mirin and/or Straye.

You can sit here and pretend that sages/sorcs don't take more damage than others, but you are simply wrong. Just to be clear, this is a problem on many fights with randomly targetted damage and AOEs: Sages/Sorcs take more damage.

Edited September 3, 2013 by judgeender

[kennethdale]

Does not mention dps or healer, so anyone would infer you were dps, given you switched to a mara, (ie had 2 healers in Raid already). Of course I wouldn't expect you to understand reasoning or making an inference from given data, but whatever dude. So, I got the inference wrong, doesn't mean it wasn't a reasonable inference. Something you really can't understand, and just show how pathetic you are with your torrent of unwarranted abuse. All because you need to wave that little e-peen of yours about.

 

You didn't infer, point of fact. You assumed. There is a colloquialism about assumptions somewhere, just wish I could remember it...

 

If ranged doesn't have any downsides, you could (or should have been able to) just have easily convinced them taking sorc dps was fine over your mara. But see, you keep adding more BS to your story. If it was YOU they wanted and not the class, then yet again your sorc should have been fine. Takes just as long to gear one toon as another, no? The more you talk the less your arguments hold water.

 

More assumptions: 1) My Sorcerer has DPS gear. 2) My Marauder has similar DPS gear to that of my Sorcerer. Based on assumptions (What is that darned colloquialism...?) your argument makes perfect sense. But rather than ask or even think out possibilities, you assume (Just wait, it will come to me...) the worst possible answer to make me seem foolish. If you're curious as to why this is, my vitriol towards you comes from prior experience with you. Prior experience in which you continued to make assumptions (tip of my tongue...) and based opinions on those assumptions (Grrr! So close to remembering!) without any discourse.

 

I'll assume given your limited intelligence and demonstrated lack of coherent logical thought, that that is probably the best you can do. Poor thing. Arrogance and limited intellect are not a good combination. My condolences.

 

Geez, what is that darned saying!

 

Your job? Lol. Just who do you think you are? You might want to go to a doctor and get checked out, because you are showing signs of being delusional.

 

For someone who uses such eloquent diction, you have a surprising small ability to read between the lines. Alright, I will spell it out for you. Outside of gaming (that includes SW:tOR, just so we stop with those nasty assumptions) the job that a company pays me to complete is to investigate internal and external fraud and/or theft. As a result of this, my particular perception of people has been negatively skewed in terms of my ability and desire to 1) take people's word as evidence (as I frequently am lied to by people who are seeking to prove, in the face of indisputable evidence, that that indisputable evidence is in fact disputable) 2) believe others research without first validating it on my own. Let me try and make it a little more clear: By "job" I meant, the role I perform outside of gaming in order to receive money (whether it be in the form of cash or electronic funds).

 

AH! I remember now:

 

Assumptions make and *** out of U and ME! Interesting how that works. You made an assumption about my Sorcerer being DPS, and went all fire and brimstone about how that is the point when in reality, at the time I was filling in for a healer who came back. This, in and of itself, is your issue. You approach the situation as if you are absolutely correct. You ignore all other factors and assume, more often than not wrongly, that anyone who disagrees must be doing it out of ignorance when in fact you are the agnostic.

 

I don't have the link handy at this time. You are welcome to find it on torparse. You can also try to find logs by Mirin and/or Straye.

 

I will do just that when I get a minute or two. Its odd to me though that you can quote directly from a specific parse but not be able to tell me anything else ABOUT that specific parse.

 

You can sit here and pretend that sages/sorcs don't take more damage than others, but you are simply wrong. Just to be clear, this is a problem on many fights with randomly targetted damage and AOEs: Sages/Sorcs take more damage.

 

I am not "pretending" anything. In my own personal experience and that which I have been able at this point to research, I have not seen this. I asked you for evidence so that I could check into because, frankly, you posted words. You didn't give me anything outside of words in a text box that given a small bit of knowledge you could easily have typed to prove a point. I'm sorry if not my not believing someone I have never met, talked to, or know anything about when they make a claim I have personally seen the contrary of but that is who I am.

 

When I saw a lot of claims that Sorcs were underperforming in NiM raids, I researched it and found that it was quite the opposite. Sorc DPS on boss is extremely on par with all other DPS, including and even exceeding on some fights Sentinel/Marauder and Gunslinger/Sniper on some bosses. Yet people made these claims based on what this person said or another and that is how hysteria starts. I want hard factual evidence before I advocate any change and the only hard facts I have seen to this point have been that Sorcs are still included in almost all high-end Operations groups and they are still included in many high-end PvP situations, which is directly opposite what many are claiming. That is the issue and making claims about my intelligence or my actions does nothing but further my own personal belief that these claims are mostly made up and back by fiction.

Edited September 3, 2013 by kennethdale