This is ... SADNESS

[senatorkn]

So here we go ... your thoughts and ideas about makin this spec usefull ? Ofc i know about problems of other specs and really curious about Sin Tanks but at the same time tired of all Deception whine( yeah yeah yeah im not fan of this fotm).

I was first and still tryin to promote this idea about Madness Phase Walk changes. It can be really good for PVP/PVE to make PW an AOE DOT (just like Plasma Probe from Engineer Snipers) with many kinds of secondary effects. It can slow targets/heal yourself depending on how many targets in the area/put an armor or heal debuff or you can suggest your ideas.

As you know atm every Sadness Idiot like me is kinda Sorc who goin melee almost naked so i guess Defensive abilities will be welcome aswell. (hi Deception fotm! can you share some cds with us)

Btw feel free to punish me if im wrong ^_^

[Evolixe]

How to make the spec useful?

 

By making it for PvE.

 

Deception has everything that comes most useful as a stealth class, there is absolutely no reason to play madness even if it does proper damage. Just look at pre 2.0.

[senatorkn]

facepalm...just facepalm... Edited August 31, 2013 by senatorkn

[Evolixe]

We lost some comments here? What's going on?

[thejollygreenone]

We lost some comments here? What's going on?

 

lol, i did something along the lines of b*tt (only with actual "profanity") in my post and it got taken down with a warning for trying to get around the profanity filter. /shrug. if you care what i have to say i'll restate,

 

i was saying i strongly disagree, and that i believe that madness deserves a solid place in pvp as deception deserves a solid place in pve.

 

in an ideal world every talent tree should have a spot in both pve and pvp, i'd like to try to work towards that ideal state instead of ignoring something like madness being inadequate in pvp and saying it's fine because there are other specs to play as a sin to do well in pvp.

 

personal preference i guess, it's not like i can control these things

[Evolixe]

I never said it didn't deserve a spot, I said it simply doesn't have any.

[thejollygreenone]

I never said it didn't deserve a spot, I said it simply doesn't have any.

 

no you never said it didn't deserve a spot, nor did you really imply it, i suppose i was exaggerating a bit.

 

How to make the spec useful?

 

By making it for PvE.

 

this just struck me as you suggesting we should do nothing about madness' sad state in pvp. i took that to the extreme by thinking you were implying it shouldn't have a spot in pvp (didn't deserve one). however my point still remains in a less extreme sense.

 

if we just make it the pve spec and do nothing about it's inadequacy in pvp, then that goes against my belief that all talent trees should have a spot in both pve and pvp, which i feel somewhat relates to BW's position when they stated they wanted all pve content to be able to be completed by any group composition. anyway i dont really know what i'm trying to say here, besides the fact that we should work towards making madness better in pvp i like equality.

 

EDIT: similarly i would hate if deception's pve shortcomings got ignored because they are seen as the pvp tree.

Edited August 31, 2013 by thejollygreenone

[Rafe_Vidar]

no you never said it didn't deserve a spot, nor did you really imply it, i suppose i was exaggerating a bit.

 

 

 

this just struck me as you suggesting we should do nothing about madness' sad state in pvp. i took that to the extreme by thinking you were implying it shouldn't have a spot in pvp (didn't deserve one). however my point still remains in a less extreme sense.

 

if we just make it the pve spec and do nothing about it's inadequacy in pvp, then that goes against my belief that all talent trees should have a spot in both pve and pvp, which i feel somewhat relates to BW's position when they stated they wanted all pve content to be able to be completed by any group composition. anyway i dont really know what i'm trying to say here, besides the fact that we should work towards making madness better in pvp i like equality.

 

EDIT: similarly i would hate if deception's pve shortcomings got ignored because they are seen as the pvp tree.

 

I agree. What's more, if you read the sentinel questions/answers it doesn't seem Bioware is interested in dividing class trees into pvp/pve compatability. Sentinel is divided on HOW it does damage and balanced on that basis. Watchman = king of sustained and single target. Focus = queen of burst and aoe. Combat = a blending. More burst than Watchman(less sustained) and more sustained than Focus(less burst). Ideally this should transfer over all classes and to a certain extent I believe it does, it just needs some tuning for Assassins/Shadows.

 

I think the biggest problems we face is our reliance on crit and RNG. I also think that as a class we should see what crit-fix Bioware has in mind, prior to shouting doomsday and shipping out. Do I think this makes the predicament we're in now ok? Surely not, we are currently an underdeveloped AC but we aren't broken beyond tuning. As for madness, I truly think allowing an execute proc would be a quick simple fix. Thrash has XX% to allow Execute to be refreshed and used no matter what health current target has. Dots could be tuned but this may be fixed when the crit-fix happens.

[thejollygreenone]

I think the biggest problems we face is our reliance on crit and RNG.

 

this hits the nail on the head. deception doesn't need much, but to me it's pretty obvious what we could do to help with that RNG. mostly i see much more potential in maul and discharge than we are given to use, many times stacks of static charge get wasted through shock double procs( which are avoidable somewhat, but ultimately happens when the ICD of surging charge gets largely disrupted ) and through discharge proccing surging charge but not building a stack of static like any other ability.

 

basically what it comes down to with discharge is we're not using it as much as we should be because we lose so many stacks of statics due to bad timing. if discharge just got a fix to properly build stacks if proccing surging charge, and preferably we would get a higher % chance to proc surging charge (even could change darkness talent sweltering shadows to include all charges), it would greatly regulate the amount of discharges used and gives them a more solid spot in our rotation.

 

getting maul to be used at full potential is a simple fix, reduce the force cost and damage done by low slash, the reason being with low slash costing 30 force, it's detrimental on your force pool to use it in pve, and will get equal or better dps by spamming CS instead. that's a problem, bring the force cost of low slash down to 20 force or below and lower the damage done accordingly. what matters is the proc it gives, and being able to use it when maul refuses to proc otherwise. which is our other source of RNG.

 

these 3 simple changes/fixes coupled with the coming change to crit DR should be enough to get deception back on track for pve. (sorry to make that longer than it had to be, i feel like i've said this a hundred times and that people are just tired of it )

 

as to what you said about madness, that seems like the best route to go for what madness seems to lack, which is a touch of burst. it has death field but one hard hitting ability doesn't seem to cut it. in pve i'm not sure how much if at all this could take de-emphasize the crazy precision needed to refresh dots, but i never seem to come up with solid ideas for a spec that i don't play primarily so i'll leave that to someone else.

[Rafe_Vidar]

as to what you said about madness, that seems like the best route to go for what madness seems to lack, which is a touch of burst. it has death field but one hard hitting ability doesn't seem to cut it. in pve i'm not sure how much if at all this could take de-emphasize the crazy precision needed to refresh dots, but i never seem to come up with solid ideas for a spec that i don't play primarily so i'll leave that to someone else.

The emphasis on keeping and properly maintaining our dots would still be there, and I'd make it a request to lessen how detrimental a dot falling off kills our dps. The request was largely to add a possible spike to our dps, and break the monotony of Thrash-Thrash-Thrash etc until DF and dots need refreshing, with respect to Raze procs.

 

Personally, I would enjoy a procable attack capable of spreading our dots to x5 targets, but I lack any proper info to provide a recommendation and it could be vastly OP. However, I could see that as a proper edge to pvp madness sins doting several people simultaneously with one(or more) of our dots.

[kennethdale]

I agree. What's more, if you read the sentinel questions/answers it doesn't seem Bioware is interested in dividing class trees into pvp/pve compatability. Sentinel is divided on HOW it does damage and balanced on that basis. Watchman = king of sustained and single target. Focus = queen of burst and aoe. Combat = a blending. More burst than Watchman(less sustained) and more sustained than Focus(less burst). Ideally this should transfer over all classes and to a certain extent I believe it does, it just needs some tuning for Assassins/Shadows.

 

I think the biggest problems we face is our reliance on crit and RNG. I also think that as a class we should see what crit-fix Bioware has in mind, prior to shouting doomsday and shipping out. Do I think this makes the predicament we're in now ok? Surely not, we are currently an underdeveloped AC but we aren't broken beyond tuning. As for madness, I truly think allowing an execute proc would be a quick simple fix. Thrash has XX% to allow Execute to be refreshed and used no matter what health current target has. Dots could be tuned but this may be fixed when the crit-fix happens.

 

The issue with your comparison to Mara/Sent is that while that may well be what the devs THINK it is not what is reality. Combat/Carnage puts out slightly better sustained damage than Annihilation in PvP and has enough burst/utility to be somewhat viable in PvP. Rage/Focus on the other hand is completely inviable for PvE and while it has very CONTROLLABLE burst, it is not higher than Carnage/Combat. The major difference being AoE and controllability of burst. Annihilation/Watchman on the hand is played by people like me who enjoy the playstyle (long-term planning versus split second decisions) in PvE and is played by some in PvP only because against bad players who don't cleanse it is hilarious. Asking for the devs to "balance" sins the same way they "balance" Mara/Sents is just ASKING them to screw up MORE of the class since they will just assume that things are good but need to be "balanced". Keep in mind, I'm not arguing that Sins don't need buffs, just that this comparison is going down a bad road.

[Rafe_Vidar]

The issue with your comparison to Mara/Sent is that while that may well be what the devs THINK it is not what is reality. Combat/Carnage puts out slightly better sustained damage than Annihilation in PvP and has enough burst/utility to be somewhat viable in PvP. Rage/Focus on the other hand is completely inviable for PvE and while it has very CONTROLLABLE burst, it is not higher than Carnage/Combat. The major difference being AoE and controllability of burst. Annihilation/Watchman on the hand is played by people like me who enjoy the playstyle (long-term planning versus split second decisions) in PvE and is played by some in PvP only because against bad players who don't cleanse it is hilarious. Asking for the devs to "balance" sins the same way they "balance" Mara/Sents is just ASKING them to screw up MORE of the class since they will just assume that things are good but need to be "balanced". Keep in mind, I'm not arguing that Sins don't need buffs, just that this comparison is going down a bad road.

 

I understand what you're saying, and you're correct. We don't want to be "like maras". My point though still stands as the dps capabilities should be balanced and the trees should change HOW that damage is applied. I used the sentinels because they were a very simple example, with dev response no less.

 

As far as buffs are concerned I think it would be stupid to implement serious changes to the class until the crit-fix, though Madness does need something and like I was saying earlier I think a procable execute would perfectly fill that need.

[thejollygreenone]

I understand what you're saying, and you're correct. We don't want to be "like maras". My point though still stands as the dps capabilities should be balanced and the trees should change HOW that damage is applied. I used the sentinels because they were a very simple example, with dev response no less.

 

As far as buffs are concerned I think it would be stupid to implement serious changes to the class until the crit-fix, though Madness does need something and like I was saying earlier I think a procable execute would perfectly fill that need.

 

i've said this a million times by now, infiltration/deception has a clear answer to buff pve consistency while causing no disturbance of pvp performance. lower force cost and damage of low slash so it's appealing to use in pve, and fix the discharge bug where it doesn't build a stack if it procs surging charge.

 

in regards to madness, you're basically right. any changes that would be effective in helping madness where it lacked would be generally be too drastic to think about before something as game changing as the crit DR change will be.

 

the things i've mentioned so many times about deception need to happen regardless of the crit DR change and i believe will have little effect in relation to each other. but madness, we need to tread lightly. but that doesn't mean we shouldn't keep brainstorming ideas about madness, the more the merrier IMO, eventually someone will come up with a great idea that will fit if they haven't already ^.^

Edited September 2, 2013 by thejollygreenone

[kwestone]

To fix madness easily:

 

1. Give us a talent (make it top tier, since we wouldnt want any "low hanging fruit") that helps with force regen so we dont have to spam saber strike a billion times .

 

2. Move conspirators cloak into the madness tree, as assasin tanks dont need the dps. It just doesnt need DPS, (we already do better than Juggs or PT's anyways)....

OR

3. Create a new talent, that just like conspirators cloak, gives a proc that allows assassinate at any health level.

 

4. Create DPS option for Phase walk like many here have suggested that would either boost crit or power or apply a AOE dot.

 

Either 2 or 3 would put some burst back into the spec, give you another option, and 1 would allow the use of shock or thrash more and less saber strikes. 4 gives us a reason to use our 51 ability outside of PVP or datacron farming.

 

Done, fixed.

[Majspuffen]

How to make the spec useful?

 

By making it for PvE.

 

Deception has everything that comes most useful as a stealth class, there is absolutely no reason to play madness even if it does proper damage. Just look at pre 2.0.

 

Deception had higher burst but Madness had more control and better up-time. Pre 2.0 was wonderful. That's what they should go back to.

Edited September 4, 2013 by Majspuffen

[Evolixe]

Deception had higher burst but Madness had more control and better up-time. Pre 2.0 was wonderful. That's what they should go back to.

 

And I support you in that sentiment by all means.

[thejollygreenone]

And I support you in that sentiment by all means.

 

i'll also put my hat in and agree. however, (not that the person was intending this) i think that just reverting back to pre 2.0 is an idea that is near impossible and probably should be thrown out the window. if you meant it more generally, in the sense of what the specs could achieve, then that's where i will agree with you.

 

on a side note, i'd like to know from someone who played the spec pre 2.0, was infiltration viable in pve? if not then we haven't changed very much since then and that's something we should also work towards i would ask the same about madness being viable in pvp pre 2.0, but i'm pretty sure it was so i won't ask. correct me if i'm wrong ^.^

Edited September 4, 2013 by thejollygreenone

[mmerry]

i'll also put my hat in and agree. however, (not that the person was intending this) i think that just reverting back to pre 2.0 is an idea that is near impossible and probably should be thrown out the window. if you meant it more generally, in the sense of what the specs could achieve, then that's where i will agree with you.

 

on a side note, i'd like to know from someone who played the spec pre 2.0, was infiltration viable in pve? if not then we haven't changed very much since then and that's something we should also work towards i would ask the same about madness being viable in pvp pre 2.0, but i'm pretty sure it was so i won't ask. correct me if i'm wrong ^.^

 

I think my best balance parse pre 2.0 was ~1975ish and I think my best infiltration parse was ~1700 or 1750. Granted I didn't really practice infiltration outside of pvp and didn't need to use it on any boss fight so I never seriously parsed with it. Pre 2.0 Balance was a lot of fun in regs generally. If played to potential it wasn't the mindless tab dot that alot of people portrayed it as. In my opinion it was a fun "pressure" spec that had a good but not great back loaded burst.

[thejollygreenone]

I think my best balance parse pre 2.0 was ~1975ish and I think my best infiltration parse was ~1700 or 1750. Granted I didn't really practice infiltration outside of pvp and didn't need to use it on any boss fight so I never seriously parsed with it. Pre 2.0 Balance was a lot of fun in regs generally. If played to potential it wasn't the mindless tab dot that alot of people portrayed it as. In my opinion it was a fun "pressure" spec that had a good but not great back loaded burst.

 

so it's somewhat how i thought. maybe a little less drastic. 200 dps difference is a decent gap, especially back then when the number game was lower due to lower level cap. we're seeing a difference of about 100 now between you as balance and aerre as infiltration.

 

my point also goes for balance in pvp, it wasn't necessarily the go-to spec for pvp but people could use it and do well under at least casual circumstances. i wouldn't say it was viable, because that implies it was appealing to use on the highest level of content (rankeds) which you didn't mention. anyway that's better than can be said for now.

 

back to infiltration, it's now possible to achieve close numbers to the other shadow dps spec, but the chance of doing so is so unrealistically low that barely anyone get's the chance to do so. look at aerre for example, his last standing record was in the early-mid-2600s, then all of a sudden the stars assembled and he pulled a 2730ish. these passable numbers can occur, but our problem is how utterly unreliable it is to do so. i'm not sure if that was the case in 2.0.

[roshakai]

Honestly I can't for the life of me figure out why Balance/Madness got changed at all, why the rotation was gutted, and why the resource management system was changed. I can't really comment on the actual difference of Force Suppression vs Rippling Force as for the effectiveness of force management because shortly after 2.0 went live I refused to continue to play this class, but I do know that before 2.0, if you played the spec correctly, there were no serious issues. As for the Rotation, I tried all the other DPS specs in game and I didn't enjoy any of them as much as Balance/Madness for Shadows/Sins. I'm not a huge PvP'er, but from what little I did do, Balance/Madness even pre 2.0 never had the burst or survivability to be very effective at killing or maintaining pressure as well as many other classes. I played all 3 specs, and I enjoyed all 3 specs, I also understand that all 3 specs currently need some love, but reading the forums I can't help but feel as if Balance/Madness is getting the least amount of attention regarding its lack of performance.

 

My questions/concerns are:

 

Why was Infiltration Tactics/Duplicity taken away so that Shadow Strike/Maul is no longer a viable option to use instead of continuously spamming Double Strike/Thrash, especially considering it's our signature class ability...? Not only was it cheaper than Double Strike/Thrash, it also did more damage than Double Strike/Thrash when it crit.

 

Why was the talent for +10% melee damage from Project/Shock removed...? Yes, Project/Shock was quite expensive, but as long as you only used it to maintain the buff, the payoff was well worth it.

 

We are getting increased damage to some melee abilities, but for this spec it only effects Double Strike/Thrash, the one ability that people are so sick of spamming because it makes the play style mind numbingly boring, it also significantly drains force because there is no more Infiltration Tactics/Duplicity procs to make Shadow Strike/Maul only cost 13 force instead of spending 23 force for each use of Double Strike/Thrash. Slightly more damage to 1 ability doesn't = any more appeal.

Edited October 6, 2013 by roshakai