Official Juggernaut Questions

[Alec_Fortescue]

I don't know what you're on about. The threat dumping skill, while giving a damage reduction boost, is the ultimate focus waster. Using it in PvP is really only possible in conjunction with enrage otherwise you're running out of rage and can't execute your damaging abilities :l

[HoboWithAStick]

PvP

We the community believe that the most outstanding issue with the juggernaut dps tree's are their lack of adequate cooldowns with an emphasis on "Enraged Defense." In the Vengeance Tree "Enraged Defense" is arguably one of the best cooldowns for dps juggernauts. In the rage tree however it is almost useless when fighting 1v1 and incredibly useless when being focused by multiple enemies. When "Enraged Defense" is active in the Rage Tree the amount of healing you receive vs the amount of damage taken is very lopsided in favor of the damage taken. A solution to the Rage Tree "Enraged Defense" would be to increase the amount of healing received by the skill or to make it similar to the Vengeance Tree "Enraged Defense." Also it will be extremely important to remove the resource cost of the skill and the resource cost while the skill is active in both trees. As it stands by using "Enraged Defense" for both trees you are inhibiting your ability to put out dps. We understand that in PvP scenarios rage juggernauts put out an incredible amount of pressure and damage, but the damage to survivability ratio is severely imbalanced. We also understand that juggernauts have the utility to taunt and mitigate damage to other players, but you can't taunt if you cannot survive.

 

Question: What solutions/thoughts does the combat development team have regarding the above issue?

 

PvE

Vengeance doesn't translate very well to a live operation environment, where the reliance on a channeled melee ability (Ravage) is consistently punished due to encounter design. Additionally, Vengeance can't reliably refresh Ravage, as both Impale and Shatter have notable cooldowns and rage costs accompanied with low proc chances (30%). Outside of Impale and Shatter, there is no way to trigger Rampage.

 

Question: Would the combat team consider making some changes (like faster ravage channel and improved proc chances) to ensure Vengeance can more easily deal reliable and consistent single target damage in a dynamic operation environment?

 

General

General) Out of all the classes in the game, the Juggernaut holds the distinction of being the only advanced class that lacks an offensive cooldown in a literal sense. Enrage gives more rage, but doesn't feel very interesting and has no secondary dps benefit.

 

 

Question: Would the developers consider granting the Juggernaut an offensive cooldown? Alternatively, would adding an interesting secondary effect onto Enrage be something to consider?

 

 

I agree with jugs having 0 dps cooldowns part and even the enraged defense part make that free but the vengence part? Vengence is the highest dps tree of any of the Tank abled Advanced class and even beat outs some of the specs for the heals AC's. While I'd agree being reliant on the channel affects dps numbers it should also be noted that people doing pve on a regular basis know the fights very well and when and when not to use a channeled move.

I'm sorry but I really feel like this question is wasted. BTW I'm Tathara, look me up on torparse.

Edited September 1, 2013 by HoboWithAStick

[kennethdale]

I agree with jugs having 0 dps cooldowns part and even the enraged defense part make that free but the vengence part? Vengence is the highest dps tree of any of the Tank abled Advanced class and even beat outs some of the specs for the heals AC's. While I'd agree being reliant on the channel affects dps numbers it should also be noted that people doing pve on a regular basis know the fights very well and when and when not to use a channeled move.

I'm sorry but I really feel like this question is wasted. BTW I'm Tathara, look me up on torparse.

 

The original point of that question was the variability of Jugg DPS because while Jugg DPS can currently parse very well, that is only in situations where it is RNG-favored. In situations where you get Rampage proc starved or have only badly timed Rampage procs the DPS fluctuates immensely. I agree that the question in posted has absolutely no relation to or in any way helps to address issues brought up by PvE Juggernauts.

[Aelaias]

I know, i just want to know why is one of the worst PVE abilities suddenly one of the best in PVP.

 

You can use it while stunned. If invested in the 2nd tier middle tree skill granting focus on being stunned or slept you have plenty of focus to take care of the skill's needs. It's a decent skill especially for vig/veng types and useable for 10sec/min.

[Marb]

And yet you removed all of the specificity from both PVE related questions while making sure to point out all of the flaws with one cool down in one spec for PvP? Not biased at all, are we?

 

Let me elaborate:

 

First off, as far as I am aware, Vengeance players are not satisfied with Enraged Defense in PvP either so ignoring their concerns in the PvP question is extremely odd. This doesn't even touch on the fact that Rage Marauders are much more viable than Rage Juggernauts in PvP, which again is odd, because to me that is the much bigger issue. Rage Marauders wear lighter armor than Juggernauts but have more survivability in PvP? That seems like the real issue, not Enraged Defense, which is one of many defensive cool downs available to Juggernauts. Asking to add another or make this one more viable is going to get answered with "You get Saber Ward, Endure Pain, and Saber Reflect what else do you need?" And even that still ignores the PvE side of Enraged Defense which is that it is a Threat Drop which costs a significant amount of resources. Myself and many other players suggested questions that tied these two ideas together as a General question but it was instead used as a PvP question completely limiting its possible outcome.

 

On top of that, just look at the questions:

 

 

 

At the very least, this question is phrased in such a way that it requires a sentence to respond: "We disagree with the above issues and think the addition of another cool down to the Juggernaut advanced class would be extremely unbalanced."

 

 

 

First and foremost, all of the input the PvE players added to make this question more specific was just thrown out the window? Why? Where are the comparisons to similar classes (Mercenaries have a 45% proc chance and can spam Tracer Missile for a Proc, Lightning Sorcerers have a 60% proc chance and it can be procced off of spammable Lightning Strike and their Thundering Blast, Madness Sorcerers have a 30% chance to proc but Force Lightning can be spammed to get a proc, Carnage Marauders have a 45% chance to proc Slaughter and it can be spammed, Carnage Marauders have a 30% chance to proc Execute but it can be spammed...do I need to go on?) I mean for God's sake, that comparison I listed was incomplete and was longer than the actual question posted. Which is leaving aside the fact that the question is phrased such that a simple "No." technically is all it requires.

 

 

 

Again, for those comparing Merc/Mandos: While TSO/PS may be lacklustre and have long CDs they are in fact OCDs. But regardless, this question can be answered with a simple "No." or even elaborated to the fact that Enrage, again while lacklustre counts as an OCD. The much bigger issue than whether or not we have an OCD, is why a raid/rated group would take us over a Marauder when we have NO utility outside of our taunt. The current answer is that we are taken when the player behind the keyboard is simply so amazing that his/her ability outweighs the lack of utility.

 

These questions ignore all of the PvE communities input and, I'd wager, the Vengeance PvP community as well in favor of asking one specific question about Rage and just throwing away the other two because the rep simply didn't care about them.

 

First question, there was a lot of back and forth. The question in its current form is the first draft that was posted a while back without any edits. We both don't like this one.

 

Second of all, the other two questions removed class comparison to avoid getting sorc/vang rep style responses. There was a desire to cut down these questions to remove the wordy premise, not flavor them for a PvP bias. Answering "NO" is what they did to the sorc/vanguard questions, and those questions were specific and full of comparisons (also they were whiny).

 

Remember this is QA, not top 3 requests/suggestions.

Edited September 2, 2013 by Marb

[Marb]

The original point of that question was the variability of Jugg DPS because while Jugg DPS can currently parse very well, that is only in situations where it is RNG-favored. In situations where you get Rampage proc starved or have only badly timed Rampage procs the DPS fluctuates immensely. I agree that the question in posted has absolutely no relation to or in any way helps to address issues brought up by PvE Juggernauts.

 

If you look back the prior discussion, the issue is with ravage as well. Even if rng issues were fixed, it would still leave vengeance in its current state, because there are no encounters that stand there and let you hit them. It also doesn't solve the rage issues involved with dot setup and target switching. Rng is a factor, but the other factor is the target dummy is never going to be reflective of vengeance's ops performance because of the way its designed, both RNG and reliance on ravage. Rng is mentioned in the premise, but it did fall by the side because there was a very good point brought up by paowee.

 

The questions were not ready to be posted, and Its pretty clear all 3 questions are NOT reflective of what the community wants to ask, and its past the submission date. Marl has not been involved enough to take on board feedback as its posted.

 

This is the question taken back to its original premise:

 

PvE) Vengeance can't reliably refresh Ravage, as both Impale and Shatter have notable cooldowns and rage costs accompanied with low proc chances (30%). Outside of Impale and Shatter, there is no way to trigger Rampage. PvE juggs feel that if we could rely more on this proc firing when we need it, our damage would be more consistent and reliable between encounters.

 

The variability in our damage output from parse to parse is a point of concern with Vengeance Juggs. Would the team be willing to examine the way Vengeance is currently restricted by RnG chances on our main damaging ability, and perhaps explore ways of improving the consistency of our damage?

Edited September 2, 2013 by Marb

[ssfish]

Wow, and I thought the Vanguard questions were poorly done. That PvP question.... you are trying to bait a "heal to full" quality response, I assume.

 

Oh, and in a "literal sense" we do have an offensive cooldown, which you referenced in the question. Methinks "literal" is not the word you intended to use. Visceral, maybe?

 

And of course, we've seen how "feel" works out for questions. The only hope for decent answers out of these is assuming that whoever wrote up the Sorc/Van answers got a tongue lashing and they decide to answer more than was actually asked.

 

Oh well; too little, too late. Here's to hoping that the combat team pulls something out of somewhere to salvage some kind of response to these questions.

[Marb]

Wow, and I thought the Vanguard questions were poorly done. That PvP question.... you are trying to bait a "heal to full" quality response, I assume.

 

Oh, and in a "literal sense" we do have an offensive cooldown, which you referenced in the question. Methinks "literal" is not the word you intended to use. Visceral, maybe?

 

And of course, we've seen how "feel" works out for questions. The only hope for decent answers out of these is assuming that whoever wrote up the Sorc/Van answers got a tongue lashing and they decide to answer more than was actually asked.

 

Oh well; too little, too late. Here's to hoping that the combat team pulls something out of somewhere to salvage some kind of response to these questions.

 

PvE and General are not his questions, he decided to go with questions "word for word" that Aren and I were doing back and forth on in the draft thread. We didn't expect what we were doing was going to result in the submitted questions, and were not consulted. I objected to his idea of using our questions as they were.

 

We didn't mean to harm the quality of the eventual questions, and it wasn't our intention to do the reps job for him.

Edited September 2, 2013 by Marb

[ssfish]

PvE and General are not his questions, he decided to go with questions that Aren and I were doing back and forth on in the draft thread. We are not in any way affiliated with the rep.

 

We didn't mean to harm the quality of the eventual questions, and it wasn't our intention to do the reps job for him.

 

That is not the same PvE question that had been being worked on before I stepped away from the forums. So either the quality of what you guys were doing went to hell in the past few days, or the Rep did a terrible job. Not sure which it is, nor do I really care since it doesn't stop these questions from being horrible.

[Marb]

That is not the same PvE question that had been being worked on before I stepped away from the forums. So either the quality of what you guys were doing went to hell in the past few days, or the Rep did a terrible job. Not sure which it is, nor do I really care since it doesn't stop these questions from being horrible.

 

We were experimenting with feedback from paowee regarding its implementation. Marl jumped the gun and posted these as the final questions without any warning or consultation. What we were doing had nothing to do with the final draft proposed by Marl.

 

Regardless, its not what the community wants, and I'm not ready to take any of the blame for the rep not interacting with the community enough.

Edited September 2, 2013 by Marb

[ssfish]

Oh right, the guy who had no involvement in this process for Juggs until two days before final questions were due.

 

In all honesty, I expect that, after the fallout of the last batch of answers, we could have given them a question like:

 

"Juggernauts suck. Why do you hate us?"

 

and we would get, at the very least, a courteous answer with some effort behind it. So I think there is still hope for decent responses from the combat team.

[Marb]

I pm'd Eric explaining the current situation, we may have time to sort something out.

 

While some members of the community expressed approval of that alternative draft me and Aren were doing, it had no rep feedback and went off in an entirely different direction from the original questions. But the most important issue here is that our draft wasn't put forth in any official capacity by the rep for community approval.

 

This was the last official state of the PvE and general questions as put forth by the rep:

 

 

 

PvE

Outside of an armor debuff, which can be applied by multiple other classes/role assignments, Juggernaut DPS has very limited group utility. Off-tanking or emergency tanking is not encouraged by any mechanics at end-game, and is not practical without sacrificing competency in our primary role as damage dealers. Similarly, abilities such as Enraged Defense and Intercede, will providing increased survivability, detract from our primary function as damage dealers (Intercede for using a global to do something other than damage and ED for the Rage cost), causing our already unimpressive damage potential to dip even further; they are also completely unneeded in end-game PvE.

 

With the current state of affairs with regards to class balance, a group would be better served bringing a Juggernaut tank, a Sniper, or a Mercenary for their armor debuff, due to other benefits provided by those classes/roles in addition to the armor debuff. This leaves Juggernaut DPS players without something that they can offer a group as far as utility abilities are concerned. Further, Juggernaut DPS is woefully lacking with the exception of one specific spec in one specific fight in the current tier of content.

 

Question: Is it intended that Juggernauts' damage output and group utility while using either of the DPS trees be sub-par due to the fact that we have the option of fulfilling the tank role?

 

 

 

General

Vengeance currently suffers from two distinctive problems which affect its performance in both PvP and PvE.

 

First is the dependency on the Rampage proc to refresh Ravage. Unlike many other specs, Vengeance can not refresh Ravage through ability spam, as both Impale and Shatter have significant cooldowns accompanied with a comparatively low proc chance of similar abilities (30%). Given the long 30 sec cooldown on Ravage, this creates great variance in damage performance when DPS and rage generation dip down due to a 'no proc' scenario.

 

Second is the fact that Ravage is a melee channel, and suffers from all the vulnerabilities that go with these types of abilities. Much of its damage can be avoided simply with movement (which leaves the Juggernaut outside of melee range) and it can be be shut down with mezzes, stuns, knockbacks, etc. This is a significant issue due to how little damage our filler abilities deal, leaving Vengeance at great risk of being shut down completely in group PvP environments after the initial Ravage (from unstoppable).

 

To be clear, the community enjoys Ravage and considers it the cornerstone of the spec.

 

Question: With this in mind, would the combat team consider making some changes to ensure Vengeance can more easily deal reliable and consistent single target damage in PvE and PvP?

Edited September 2, 2013 by Marb

[UndyingHadyn]

That is not the same PvE question that had been being worked on before I stepped away from the forums. So either the quality of what you guys were doing went to hell in the past few days, or the Rep did a terrible job. Not sure which it is, nor do I really care since it doesn't stop these questions from being horrible.

 

Well I had a minor hiatus, and eventually had to rename my forum account (read between the lines). It is my fault. You were all lost without me.

 

 

 

If I was rep, I'd have subdivided the priorities into seperate threads, thus allowing specific discussion for the elite players within their respective fields. I then would have made drafts with each thread to keep each question isolated and clean. Finally, I'd have made a final and official thread that would not have required the endless quarrelling.

 

 

 

All is not lost. Even if jugs get the ****can for answers, we are still in a decent place among other classes. Perhaps with more illustrated theorycrafting and explanation, we can illuminate juggernaut improvements with clarity at a later date.

 

 

 

If anything, this affair has strengthened our jug community, and has revealed who should, and who should not be taken seriously down the road. No offences given or taken.

[Marb]

For any future reps, the current state of the PvP question is a good example of not taking on enough feedback. On the other hand, the PvE and General questions are good examples of what happens when you take on too much feedback and take it too literally.

 

The devs have said that they do keep up to date with the threads that come up with the rep questions, so I hope the overall discussion can give them a better idea of the actual concerns the Jugg community has compared to the questions that have been submitted.

Edited September 2, 2013 by Marb

[UndyingHadyn]

For any future reps, the current quality of the PvE and general questions are good examples of what happens when you take on too much feedback and take it too literally. And the PvP question is a good example of not taking on enough feedback.

 

The devs have said that they do keep up to date with the threads that come up with the QA questions, so I hope the overall discussion can give them a better idea of the actual concerns the Jugg community has compared to the questions that have been submitted.

 

...Marb.

 

Let's go get a couple pints in our guts shall we?

[Vaidinah]

I agree with jugs having 0 dps cooldowns part and even the enraged defense part make that free but the vengence part? Vengence is the highest dps tree of any of the Tank abled Advanced class and even beat outs some of the specs for the heals AC's. While I'd agree being reliant on the channel affects dps numbers it should also be noted that people doing pve on a regular basis know the fights very well and when and when not to use a channeled move.

I'm sorry but I really feel like this question is wasted. BTW I'm Tathara, look me up on torparse.

 

Vengeance is definitely not the highest DPS tree of any tank class. Where exactly did you get the idea that Vengeance has the highest DPS of any class that can tank? From the 2.0 DPS leaderboard thread, we have the following top parses:

 

Guardian/Juggernaut

1. Loufucai - Juggernaut - Vengeance - 4/36/6 - 3039.94

 

Commando/Mercenary

1. Pizza'dah'hutt - Mercenary Arsenal - 6/36/4 - 3179.33

 

Gunslinger/Sniper

1. Nithnuro - Sniper - Marksman 36/3/7 - 3265.68

 

Sage/Sorcerer

1. Handcuff - Sage - 3/36/7 Telekinetics - 3164.89

 

Sentinel/Marauder

1. Noo'dles - Marauder - Carnage 5/36/5 - 3221.21

 

Scoundrel/Operative

1.Invinc - Operative - Lethality - 4/6/36 - 3248.72

 

Shadow/Assassin (Tank class)

1. M-knightrider - Shadow - Balance - 8/2/36 - 2836.74

 

Vanguard/Powertech (Tank class)

1. Mruniverse- Vanguard- Hybrid 2/22/22- 3134.83

 

I want to mention quickly that most of these parses are clearly biased toward those players who have full or mostly 75 gear, which does not appear to be the case for the Juggernaught. Even so, when you remember that the Jugg parse contains an armor debuff (roughly 200 DPS gain), they are actually the lowest among all classes except for the Assassin. They even lose to classes that don't have an armor debuff like the Marauder, Powertech (a tank class), Operative, and Sorcerer. Even the Assassin that people complain about all over the forums is barely below the Juggernaught assuming they had equal circumstances (gear, armor debuff, and execute phase) plus Vengeance parses require a huge amount of luck to get to this point (far more than most specs).

 

So I have no idea where you have come to this conclusion.

[arkitip]

Sorry guys, I didn't provide much feedback as I've been working a lot and I've been playing my marauder instead. As a community you really didn't vote for this, best of luck.

[Treblt]

Interestingly, the questions for PvE and General are taken directly from the community feedback, just reading back through the last thread i can see directly where it was taken from. This makes sense, he relied on the community to provide valuable feedback regarding PvE as that is his lowest knowledge base for a jugg. This is a Q&A. The questions are phrased in the appropriate light to fit in with Q&A. You guys are being MUCH too presumptuous. The PvP question is what the high end PvP community wants, and it states what we want to be asked in exactly the way to make sure that they cannot come back with l2p. You guys are ridiculous, especially when you're debating the PvP question when the highest level competitive play you participate in is when you happen to get into a match with some rated players.

 

Let me phrase it again if you missed it:

 

The current PvP question is more than fine. It represents what a high level juggernaut DPS needs to know about their class. As is: Vengeance is not terribly viable for PvP due to design. I understand that the devs want it to stay as it is design wise. Rage is viable "DAMAGE" wise. It is not survivable enough to have a placehold in any high level PvP content.

[Marb]

Interestingly, the questions for PvE and General are taken directly from the community feedback, just reading back through the last thread i can see directly where it was taken from. This makes sense, he relied on the community to provide valuable feedback regarding PvE as that is his lowest knowledge base for a jugg. This is a Q&A. The questions are phrased in the appropriate light to fit in with Q&A. You guys are being MUCH too presumptuous. The PvP question is what the high end PvP community wants, and it states what we want to be asked in exactly the way to make sure that they cannot come back with l2p. You guys are ridiculous, especially when you're debating the PvP question when the highest level competitive play you participate in is when you happen to get into a match with some rated players.

 

Let me phrase it again if you missed it:

 

The current PvP question is more than fine. It represents what a high level juggernaut DPS needs to know about their class. As is: Vengeance is not terribly viable for PvP due to design. I understand that the devs want it to stay as it is design wise. Rage is viable "DAMAGE" wise. It is not survivable enough to have a placehold in any high level PvP content.

 

The rep could have participated more, and frankly everyone could have. I do feel responsible for the current state of the PvE and general questions because I was trying to spearhead them before the deadline. This meant they went through lots of iteration and rephrasing from feedback involving like 3 people.

 

This made some feel like they were alienated from the process completely when they came back to see the questions the rep posted as a draft were scrapped for completely new questions that were submitted without an official "ok" from everyone.

 

It has become apparent that the QA process has failed the community.

Edited September 2, 2013 by Marb

[Treblt]

The rep could have participated more, and frankly everyone could have. I do feel responsible for the current state of the PvE and general questions because I was trying to spearhead them before the deadline. This meant they went through lots of iteration and rephrasing from feedback involving like 3 people.

 

This made some feel like they were alienated from the process completely when they came back to see the questions the rep posted as a draft were scrapped for completely new questions that were submitted without an official "ok" from everyone.

 

It has become apparent that the QA process has failed the community.

 

I just feel like everyone blamed Marl for a failure that was as a whole was the entire community as well. When threads were made, there was never a cohesive thought process no matter WHO spearheaded it. The general gist I got out of looking at the forums, was that there were 3-4 PvE players that all kind of wanted things phrased/done differently, with a lot of PvP players asking things to Marl directly with some PvE players talking to him directly. I myself spoke to him a lot in mumble directly about a lot of the issues, both in PvE and PvP (I used to main the class as DPS/Tank back in the day, and mind you I was one of the world tier raiders at the time. I understand and have kept up with current raids as well). He understands and can formulate questions that work, but his job was to collect feedback from you guys. The problem with that is just by viewing it, your feedback was EVERYWHERE. Regardless of whether he tried that much to organize it, you guys did and it was never ever solidified or anything. in his shoes, the position was very frustrating.

[Marb]

I just feel like everyone blamed Marl for a failure that was as a whole was the entire community as well. When threads were made, there was never a cohesive thought process no matter WHO spearheaded it. The general gist I got out of looking at the forums, was that there were 3-4 PvE players that all kind of wanted things phrased/done differently, with a lot of PvP players asking things to Marl directly with some PvE players talking to him directly. I myself spoke to him a lot in mumble directly about a lot of the issues, both in PvE and PvP (I used to main the class as DPS/Tank back in the day, and mind you I was one of the world tier raiders at the time. I understand and have kept up with current raids as well). He understands and can formulate questions that work, but his job was to collect feedback from you guys. The problem with that is just by viewing it, your feedback was EVERYWHERE. Regardless of whether he tried that much to organize it, you guys did and it was never ever solidified or anything. in his shoes, the position was very frustrating.

 

It's frustrating when after the questions were submitted, we get the thread filled with captain hindsight's, when this sort of aggressive feedback is what we needed 2 days ago.

 

This made it seem like in the last pages of the draft thread, the alternative questions evolved into a state everyone was happy with, when in actual fact, not enough people were involved or even aware of what was taking place to realize those questions would end up in the final submission. If that was more transparent (Marl's job) and more of the community were involved, I don't think those questions would have even got past the draft thread in the form they were posted in, going by the larger communities reaction to them.

 

This was the original draft put to the community by Marl:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=6706379&postcount=38

 

These are the alternative "trimmed" PvP and PvE questions proposed by me and ArenCordial (went through revisions after the current questions were submitted):

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=6707368&postcount=54

 

This is what was submitted:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=6711933&postcount=1

 

If people look back through the threads, specific feedback was still being sought for going with the current general question (which I have now removed), and no final draft was presented by Marl. It wasn't by consensus, and that's why people are angry and confused at how the current questions were finalized.

 

Eric hasn't even posted here yet, Marl can still make final revisions on his original draft and submit that instead:

PvP

We the community believe that the most outstanding issue with the juggernaut dps tree's are their lack of adequate cooldowns with an emphasis on "Enraged Defense." In the Vengeance Tree "Enraged Defense" is arguably one of the best cooldowns for dps juggernauts. In the rage tree however it is almost useless when fighting 1v1 and incredibly useless when being focused by multiple enemies. A solution to the Rage Tree "Enraged Defense" would be to increase the amount of healing received by the skill or to make it similar to the Vengeance Tree "Enraged Defense." Also it will be extremely important to remove the resource cost of the skill and the resource cost while the skill is active in both trees. As it stands by using "Enraged Defense" for both trees you are inhibiting your ability to put out dps. We understand that in PvP scenarios rage juggernauts put out an incredible amount of pressure and damage, but the damage to survivability ratio is severely imbalanced. We also understand that juggernauts have the utility to taunt and mitigate damage to other players, but you can't taunt if you cannot survive.

 

Question: What solutions/thoughts does the combat development team have regarding the above issue?

 

I have read and understood the issues and concerns the community has with the PvP question. However when I have talked with multiple high-end pvp'ers on multiple servers the general consensus is that the question accurately covers the main issue with juggernaut dps. The PvE implications while being somewhat important, do not take precedence over the PvP issues of the class because this is the PvP question. The Immortal Tree is not mentioned because as it stand it is arguably the best tank in the game for PvP and PvE. No one is disputing that saber ward and reflect are good cooldowns, but as it stands the 3min cooldown for saber ward and 3 second reflect are not enough for the class.

 

 

PvE

Outside of an armor debuff, which can be applied by multiple other classes/role assignments, Juggernaut DPS has very limited group utility. Off-tanking or emergency tanking is not encouraged by any mechanics at end-game, and is not practical without sacrificing competency in our primary role as damage dealers. Similarly, abilities such as Enraged Defense and Intercede, will providing increased survivability, detract from our primary function as damage dealers (Intercede for using a global to do something other than damage and ED for the Rage cost), causing our already unimpressive damage potential to dip even further; they are also completely unneeded in end-game PvE. With the current state of affairs with regards to class balance, a group would be better served bringing a Juggernaut tank, a Sniper, or a Mercenary for their armor debuff, due to other benefits provided by those classes/roles in addition to the armor debuff. This leaves Juggernaut DPS players without something that they can offer a group as far as utility abilities are concerned. Further, Juggernaut DPS is woefully lacking with the exception of one specific spec in one specific fight in the current tier of content.

 

Question: Is it intended that Juggernauts' damage output and group utility while using either of the DPS trees be sub-par due to the fact that we have the option of fulfilling the tank role?

 

Does the community like the first PvE question? If so give it a +1

 

PvE

Outside of an armor debuff, which can be applied by multiple other classes/role assignments, Juggernaut DPS has very limited group utility. Off-tanking or emergency tanking is not encouraged by any mechanics at end-game, and is not practical without sacrificing competency in our primary role as damage dealers. Similarly, abilities such as Enraged Defense and Intercede, will providing increased survivability, detract from our primary function as damage dealers (Intercede for using a global to do something other than damage and ED for the Rage cost), causing our already unimpressive damage potential to dip even further; they are also completely unneeded in end-game PvE.

 

With the current state of affairs with regards to class balance, a group would be better served bringing a Juggernaut tank, a Sniper, or a Mercenary for their armor debuff, due to other benefits provided by those classes/roles in addition to the armor debuff. This leaves Juggernaut DPS players without something that they can offer a group as far as utility abilities are concerned. Further, Juggernaut DPS is woefully lacking with the exception of one specific spec in one specific fight in the current tier of content.

 

Question: Is it intended that Juggernauts' damage output and group utility while using either of the DPS trees be sub-par due to the fact that we have the option of fulfilling the tank role?

 

Does the community like the second PvE Question? If so give it a +1

 

General

Vengeance currently suffers from two distinctive problems which affect its performance in both PvP and PvE.

 

First is the dependency on the Rampage proc to refresh Ravage. Unlike many other specs, Vengeance can not refresh Ravage through ability spam, as both Impale and Shatter have significant cooldowns accompanied with a comparatively low proc chance of similar abilities (30%). Given the long 30 sec cooldown on Ravage, this creates great variance in damage performance when DPS and rage generation dip down due to a 'no proc' scenario.

 

Second is the fact that Ravage is a melee channel, and suffers from all the vulnerabilities that go with these types of abilities. Much of its damage can be avoided simply with movement (which leaves the Juggernaut outside of melee range) and it can be be shut down with mezzes, stuns, knockbacks, etc. This is a significant issue due to how little damage our filler abilities deal, leaving Vengeance at great risk of being shut down completely in group PvP environments after the initial Ravage (from unstoppable).

 

To be clear, the community enjoys Ravage and considers it the cornerstone of the spec.

 

Question: With this in mind, would the combat team consider making some changes to ensure Vengeance can more easily deal reliable and consistent single target damage in PvE and PvP?

 

The community seems to like the layout of this question a lot, so I will be leaving it as is.

 

Keep in mind the questions are due 8/30 so a quick answer will be necessary if the right questions are to be posted.

Edited September 2, 2013 by Marb

[Luckygunslinger]

We keep going back and forth, up and down, left and right with our versions of the questions. Guys, just take a break, relax and lets just wait for the answers. Edited September 2, 2013 by Luckygunslinger

[Aelaias]

I pm'd Eric explaining the current situation, we may have time to sort something out.

 

While some members of the community expressed approval of that alternative draft me and Aren were doing, it had no rep feedback and went off in an entirely different direction from the original questions. But the most important issue here is that our draft wasn't put forth in any official capacity by the rep for community approval.

 

This was the last official state of the PvE and general questions as put forth by the rep:

 

 

 

PvE

Outside of an armor debuff, which can be applied by multiple other classes/role assignments, Juggernaut DPS has very limited group utility. Off-tanking or emergency tanking is not encouraged by any mechanics at end-game, and is not practical without sacrificing competency in our primary role as damage dealers. Similarly, abilities such as Enraged Defense and Intercede, will providing increased survivability, detract from our primary function as damage dealers (Intercede for using a global to do something other than damage and ED for the Rage cost), causing our already unimpressive damage potential to dip even further; they are also completely unneeded in end-game PvE.

 

With the current state of affairs with regards to class balance, a group would be better served bringing a Juggernaut tank, a Sniper, or a Mercenary for their armor debuff, due to other benefits provided by those classes/roles in addition to the armor debuff. This leaves Juggernaut DPS players without something that they can offer a group as far as utility abilities are concerned. Further, Juggernaut DPS is woefully lacking with the exception of one specific spec in one specific fight in the current tier of content.

 

Question: Is it intended that Juggernauts' damage output and group utility while using either of the DPS trees be sub-par due to the fact that we have the option of fulfilling the tank role?

 

 

 

General

Vengeance currently suffers from two distinctive problems which affect its performance in both PvP and PvE.

 

First is the dependency on the Rampage proc to refresh Ravage. Unlike many other specs, Vengeance can not irefresh Ravage through ability spam, as both Impale and Shatter have significant cooldowns accompanied with a comparatively low proc chance of similar abilities (30%). Given the long 30 sec cooldown on Ravage, this creates great variance in damage performance when DPS and rage generation dip down due to a 'no proc' scenario.

 

Second is the fact that Ravage is a melee channel, and suffers from all the vulnerabilities that go with these types of abilities. Much of its damage can be avoided simply with movement (which leaves the Juggernaut outside of melee range) and it can be be shut down with mezzes, stuns, knockbacks, etc. This is a significant issue due to how little damage our filler abilities deal, leaving Vengeance at great risk of being shut down completely in group PvP environments after the initial Ravage (from unstoppable).

 

To be clear, the community enjoys Ravage and considers it the cornerstone of the spec.

 

Question: With this in mind, would the combat team consider making some changes to ensure Vengeance can more easily deal reliable and consistent single target damage in PvE and PvP?

 

I feel these are pretty much ready for presentation.

[wadecounty]

What I don't understand is why the class rep for Juggs is someone who I've never seen post in the Jugg forums, instead of someone like ssfish who has been very active on here and provided great feedback for a long time now.

 

The fact it became a popularity contest where that player had his friends vote for him even though he's shown little care for the class on the forums in the past is sad... which is why the selection process was flawed to begin with. Oh well. Would have been nice if there was an additional forum activity requirement to be the rep, like at least 10 posts in this forum over the past 6 months.

 

Hopefully after we get our answers, they allow us to vote to remove the current class rep.

 

EDIT: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=660014

 

So that's how we got our class rep... disgusting. I'm disappointed in this process, these questions, everything. The vanguards and sorcs got awful answers because they had awful class reps (the vanguard questions were just terrible, and looked to be written by a 5-year old), and now we're in danger of facing the same thing. Sigh.

Edited September 2, 2013 by wadecounty

[Sir-Coffee]

Wow, and I thought the Vanguard questions were poorly done. That PvP question.... you are trying to bait a "heal to full" quality response, I assume.

 

Oh, and in a "literal sense" we do have an offensive cooldown, which you referenced in the question. Methinks "literal" is not the word you intended to use. Visceral, maybe?

 

And of course, we've seen how "feel" works out for questions. The only hope for decent answers out of these is assuming that whoever wrote up the Sorc/Van answers got a tongue lashing and they decide to answer more than was actually asked.

 

Oh well; too little, too late. Here's to hoping that the combat team pulls something out of somewhere to salvage some kind of response to these questions.

 

This is what happens when the developers don't monitor "elections" and who has contributed to the community.

Just like marshmallow(who is gone now), this individual most likely won due to his friends in-game and spamming/offering handouts.