Ion vs. HEG cylinder in pvp for AP

[QuiteRly]

just looking for a little advice here: I primarily PVE tanked with this toon before i shelved it, and was always a fan of AP for both pve and pvp. Recently, I've read on forums that it's beneficial to run Ion cyl while in a full AP spec...is this ever not the case? Do you run with a shield or a generator? Will 2.4 change it as far as we can see? Just curious as to what some more experienced PT Deeps have to say about it.

[Kooziejr]

just looking for a little advice here: I primarily PVE tanked with this toon before i shelved it, and was always a fan of AP for both pve and pvp. Recently, I've read on forums that it's beneficial to run Ion cyl while in a full AP spec...is this ever not the case? Do you run with a shield or a generator? Will 2.4 change it as far as we can see? Just curious as to what some more experienced PT Deeps have to say about it.

 

Please do not run in Ion gas if you are dpsing....that really annoys me and is stupid. The heat management is just plain awful and you lose a fair amount of DPS. Furthermore, you don't actually mitigate a great deal more damage considering you would have to be an idiot to run full AP with a shield (and if you do...why not just play full tanks spec instead?)....so all that Ion Gas actually does is increase your armour rating and fk up your heat management while simulataneously decreasing your DPS considerably. Some noobs will say "but I can guard people" PFTTTTT that doesn't help anyone.....you're not a tank so you at most mitigate 5% of the incoming damage and the other damage just gets distributed back to you...a DPS...who then dies....very quickly....

 

Only class this ever worked for was tank hybrid sin pre 2.0 (but even then...THIS was a hybrid..not a full build). As a general rule for everyone...if you play DPS....your job is to DPS....if you play a tank...your job is to tank. Why is this so hard for people to understand?

 

That being said I am taking this from a more serious approach of playing properly. If you enjoy playing in IGC instead of HEGC then go for it - just expect me and lots of other people to roll their eyes in a wz when we see a 29k tank with 72% surge *sigh*

 

Last of all, if you ever see anyone do this. Call them an idiot.

Edited August 22, 2013 by Kooziejr

[Soalri]

Please do not run in Ion gas if you are dpsing....that really annoys me and is stupid. The heat management is just plain awful and you lose a fair amount of DPS. Furthermore, you don't actually mitigate a great deal more damage considering you would have to be an idiot to run full AP with a shield (and if you do...why not just play full tanks spec instead?)....so all that Ion Gas actually does is increase your armour rating and fk up your heat management while simulataneously decreasing your DPS considerably. Some noobs will say "but I can guard people" PFTTTTT that doesn't help anyone.....you're not a tank so you at most mitigate 5% of the incoming damage and the other damage just gets distributed back to you...a DPS...who then dies....very quickly....

 

Only class this ever worked for was tank hybrid sin pre 2.0 (but even then...THIS was a hybrid..not a full build). As a general rule for everyone...if you play DPS....your job is to DPS....if you play a tank...your job is to tank. Why is this so hard for people to understand?

 

That being said I am taking this from a more serious approach of playing properly. If you enjoy playing in IGC instead of HEGC then go for it - just expect me and lots of other people to roll their eyes in a wz when we see a 29k tank with 72% surge *sigh*

 

Last of all, if you ever see anyone do this. Call them an idiot.

 

lawlz guess you haven't heard of the dongcleave

[Soalri]

Please do not run in Ion gas if you are dpsing....that really annoys me and is stupid. The heat management is just plain awful and you lose a fair amount of DPS. Furthermore, you don't actually mitigate a great deal more damage considering you would have to be an idiot to run full AP with a shield (and if you do...why not just play full tanks spec instead?)....so all that Ion Gas actually does is increase your armour rating and fk up your heat management while simulataneously decreasing your DPS considerably. Some noobs will say "but I can guard people" PFTTTTT that doesn't help anyone.....you're not a tank so you at most mitigate 5% of the incoming damage and the other damage just gets distributed back to you...a DPS...who then dies....very quickly....

 

Only class this ever worked for was tank hybrid sin pre 2.0 (but even then...THIS was a hybrid..not a full build). As a general rule for everyone...if you play DPS....your job is to DPS....if you play a tank...your job is to tank. Why is this so hard for people to understand?

 

That being said I am taking this from a more serious approach of playing properly. If you enjoy playing in IGC instead of HEGC then go for it - just expect me and lots of other people to roll their eyes in a wz when we see a 29k tank with 72% surge *sigh*

 

Last of all, if you ever see anyone do this. Call them an idiot.

 

lawlz guess you haven't heard of the dongcleave

[dijskykiller]

Running in IGC in AP w/ Oil Slick and dps/tank gear is only beneficial in duels and arenas as a main tank, it shouldn't be used to dps, but to control and pressure.

 

On the other hand, PT DPS should always stick to full dps specs and their respective cylinders.

 

Combine this with 2 AP PTs and you have a Dongcleave.

Edited August 31, 2013 by dijskykiller

[Kooziejr]

lawlz guess you haven't heard of the dongcleave

 

Because you came and spammed my video I feel like I'm going to have to make you look pretty stupid now...which you definitely are.

First, I was asked this question in the context of the current patch 2.3etc where arenas DO NOT exist and where people when they talk about PvP are 99% of time are referring to 8 v 8 warzones and not 1 v 1. I think that would be a pretty logical assumption for everyone except you. When you talk about arenas I do believe things are a little different and this may work (Ion gas cylinder in a 4 v 4) but I am not sure because I haven't seen enough to make a comment on (and neither have you; sample size of one is pathetic - go back to statistics 101), so lets just leave it there k brah?

 

I will now outline the things you lose if you run in ion gas instead of HEGC while running full AP (including shield instead of generator):

1) Straight up 1% loss of internal and elemental damage

2) Loss of 15% movement speed

3) Loss of venting 8 heat every 6 seconds

4) Loss of rail shot autocrit after rocket punch (....lol...this is like 3k damage every 15 seconds)

5) Loss of 5% damage output (while ion gas is active)

6) Loss of just under 100 bonus damage (probs like 8%)

 

In summary, you lose an extreme amount of dps, while losing movement ability, magnitude of hits (burst) and heat management.

 

Now I will outline the things you lose if you run in Ion gas in AP compared to tank in Ion gas: this is assuming you play the "proper AP spec" and take immolate as well as the 6% fire damage bonus....if not you lose 6% damage on all fire abilities (including flamer LOL) so add that to the top k brah?

 

1) 16% armour rating

2) Auto trigger of Ion gas cylinder

3) Movement speed slow on ion gas (crap but nonetheless)

4) Oil slick.......just wow

5) 4% shield absorption

6) 2% shield chance + heat management associated with this

7) 2% damage reduction

8) Jet charge + spammable flame sweep (50% slow)

9) 30% speed buff when getting attacked after jet charge,

10) 4% defense chance

11) Extra heals from kolto overload and shoulder cannon

12) Heat blast - increase shield absorption by 25% for 6 seconds

 

This list does not include the intrinsic ability of the different gear you should be using to mitigate a lot more damage (actually wearing TANK gear helps mitigate damage...believe it or not)

 

So to recap basically, you are suggesting that playing 8 v 8 dps gear and a dps tree in tank stance is good? Okay then. No, it isn't k?

 

This may work in arenas but we will have to see. It sure as hell doesn't work in 8 v 8 against any viable opposition as for the reasons stated about. The only credible things you get are 30% reduce dmg when stunned (good players don't stun AP when they attack them), AOE damage reduction (very good against smash! so would definitely work against 2 nooblahs smashing - see how you go against 2 lethality snipers or pyrotechs, mercs, madness sorcs, carnage mara etc) you also get a low cooldown on energy shield and the energy rebounder. I don't think it is worth it overall as you lose so much DPS and defensive abilities for a gain of very little. Anyways, like I said, time will tell to see if it works in arenas I will even give it a go myself to test the theory out but atm in the current build of the game this is a completely unviable spec against a reasonable opposition.

Edited September 4, 2013 by Kooziejr

[JollyRen]

just looking for a little advice here: I primarily PVE tanked with this toon before i shelved it, and was always a fan of AP for both pve and pvp. Recently, I've read on forums that it's beneficial to run Ion cyl while in a full AP spec...is this ever not the case? Do you run with a shield or a generator? Will 2.4 change it as far as we can see? Just curious as to what some more experienced PT Deeps have to say about it.

 

DPS lacks in comparison to full AP or Pyro DPS while in ion Cell. Basically, you lose 10% damage in AP because the Cell does an automatic +5% while Ion does -5%. To answer the question below your OP, on why not run shield tech, its because you off-tank. You can do full tank in AP and it's just about as good as shieldtech, plus you can do DPS.

 

My DPS is comparable to most full DPS, plus i get an average 100-200k protection if i'm guarding a healer. I've been playing with more hybrids and stuff lately, and I see it has the most utility of the specs for PvP. You can tank in AP Ion Cell for Huttball, or you can run an AP hybrid for Shieldtech, with combat medic 2 set bonus and 2 set combat tech. You don't get much out of it though. I've heard it call the "batman" spec, but meh. I'm just as impressed with that as an AP spec in Ion Cell.

 

The difference mainly is this:

 

AP Ion - general spec (damage and defense balance)

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/skills/powertech#300230-13232011212201022220322-20

 

AP Ion w/ 30m bleed:

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/skills/powertech#320230-13232011212201022220322-0

 

AP ST Ion mobility spec ("Batman"):

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/skills/powertech#1202122122320032-1011201022220322-0

 

FULL AP (doesn't have good defenses, but puts out decent damage. Problem is you need a dedicated pocket healer to do much damage without dropping like a pile of bricks):

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/skills/powertech#300230-13232110212221122021302-20

 

Don't worry about hydraulic override because you have a constant 15% speed increase while cell is active. 4s Hydraulic Overrides is insignificant with how quickly it is up all the time.

 

AP/Pyro hybrid: http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/skills/powertech#0-212201022221302-222120122203023

 

Not recommended if you are not used to AP Ion cell's heat restrictions. It's very heat heavy, best of both worlds, etc. etc. You have sustained damage and some defensive capabilities, and burst damage. It's comparable to full AP damage, not quite as mobile, though, and you still need a good healer. 6% increased damage to most of you flame abilities, 6% increased flame burst damage and retractable blade, 3% increased damage from blood tracker, crit chance is up 9% for flame effects, including flame thrower, rocket punch becomes manageable when it is free from your flame bursts (every 2-3, basically, 45% proc rate, 60% w/ RP), increased damage by 8% in first tier, 6% in 5th tier, and is free, AND procs your rail shot, which if it hits a burning target is an additional 8 heat saved. So you can get 2 free abilities in a row, basically.

 

its a good spec, but really hard to play, and really hard to get the rotation down, and you have 2 bleeds for people LoS'ing you, which has always been my biggest problem with PT, getting a slow when my hydraulic is down or getting stunned just before that last 10% is down.

 

You can do a lot of things with AP, full or hybrid.

Edited September 5, 2013 by JollyRen

[Zoom_VI]

lawlz guess you haven't heard of the dongcleave

 

Who decided that stacking a particular class warranted giving such a comp a name, and then gave it the most idiotic sounding name. I miss vanilla swtor when VG/PT spec/strategies where at least given good names like Carolina Parakeet

[Avicii]

Who decided that stacking a particular class warranted giving such a comp a name, and then gave it the most idiotic sounding name. I miss vanilla swtor when VG/PT spec/strategies where at least given good names like Carolina Parakeet

 

Agree I was partial to Iron Fist as well, I think that's what it was called. Kinda bummed they killed them.

[Ottoattack]

Because you came and spammed my video I feel like I'm going to have to make you look pretty stupid now...which you definitely are.

First, I was asked this question in the context of the current patch 2.3etc where arenas DO NOT exist and where people when they talk about PvP are 99% of time are referring to 8 v 8 warzones and not 1 v 1. I think that would be a pretty logical assumption for everyone except you. When you talk about arenas I do believe things are a little different and this may work (Ion gas cylinder in a 4 v 4) but I am not sure because I haven't seen enough to make a comment on (and neither have you; sample size of one is pathetic - go back to statistics 101), so lets just leave it there k brah?

 

I will now outline the things you lose if you run in ion gas instead of HEGC while running full AP (including shield instead of generator):

1) Straight up 1% loss of internal and elemental damage

2) Loss of 15% movement speed

3) Loss of venting 8 heat every 6 seconds

4) Loss of rail shot autocrit after rocket punch (....lol...this is like 3k damage every 15 seconds)

5) Loss of 5% damage output (while ion gas is active)

6) Loss of just under 100 bonus damage (probs like 8%)

 

In summary, you lose an extreme amount of dps, while losing movement ability, magnitude of hits (burst) and heat management.

 

Now I will outline the things you lose if you run in Ion gas in AP compared to tank in Ion gas: this is assuming you play the "proper AP spec" and take immolate as well as the 6% fire damage bonus....if not you lose 6% damage on all fire abilities (including flamer LOL) so add that to the top k brah?

 

1) 16% armour rating

2) Auto trigger of Ion gas cylinder

3) Movement speed slow on ion gas (crap but nonetheless)

4) Oil slick.......just wow

5) 4% shield absorption

6) 2% shield chance + heat management associated with this

7) 2% damage reduction

8) Jet charge + spammable flame sweep (50% slow)

9) 30% speed buff when getting attacked after jet charge,

10) 4% defense chance

11) Extra heals from kolto overload and shoulder cannon

12) Heat blast - increase shield absorption by 25% for 6 seconds

 

This list does not include the intrinsic ability of the different gear you should be using to mitigate a lot more damage (actually wearing TANK gear helps mitigate damage...believe it or not)

 

So to recap basically, you are suggesting that playing 8 v 8 dps gear and a dps tree in tank stance is good? Okay then. No, it isn't k?

 

This may work in arenas but we will have to see. It sure as hell doesn't work in 8 v 8 against any viable opposition as for the reasons stated about. The only credible things you get are 30% reduce dmg when stunned (good players don't stun AP when they attack them), AOE damage reduction (very good against smash! so would definitely work against 2 nooblahs smashing - see how you go against 2 lethality snipers or pyrotechs, mercs, madness sorcs, carnage mara etc) you also get a low cooldown on energy shield and the energy rebounder. I don't think it is worth it overall as you lose so much DPS and defensive abilities for a gain of very little. Anyways, like I said, time will tell to see if it works in arenas I will even give it a go myself to test the theory out but atm in the current build of the game this is a completely unviable spec against a reasonable opposition.

 

While the tune is not nice, this is 100% correct. Having any successful level of sustaining damage, is not going to happen with ion cylinder. However, it is reasonable if you are dpsing in short parses, if defensive play is the primary goal. On live, I run full AP, always in HEGC. I switch to ion cylinder in Hutt Ball, as damage is not relevant for the most part and in Void Star defense round. You may also consider it if you are solo defending a node. Other than that use HEGC without a second thought.

 

For arenas, I heard of the "dongcleave," where the tank plays mostly AP with ion cylinder and oil stick, in dps gear. I am not sure how well it fairs, but I can assure the goal is not damage by any means. If you are playing as dps, you better have HEGC on.

[Nezyrworks]

For all those, who think about using the hybrid (ion Tactics) in warzones (not arenas).

 

This works only in specific circumstances like defensive phase of a Voidstar, maybe on hutball, IF you turtle all 3 nodes on Alderaan, if your strategy is to 4man block the pylon, or when u want that extra power to punch a hole in fast bunker fight on Novare. All in all, every extensively long fight will drain your resources leaving u helpless.

 

For Kooziej, and other people speaking about it - consider:

 

.... (i will cut it because it was to long)

 

I will now outline the things you lose if you run in ion gas instead of HEGC while running full AP (including shield instead of generator):

1) Straight up 1% loss of internal and elemental damage (True)

 

2) Loss of 15% movement speed (not that it is very usefull in arenas)

 

3) Loss of venting 8 heat every 6 seconds (True, but for the amount of survivability you can go NORS and become a happy man, just wave in some more rapid shots).

 

4) Loss of rail shot autocrit after rocket punch (....lol...this is like 3k damage every 15 seconds) You skip HIB/RS as it is to much energy consuming skill for your rotation and does to small damage to be usefull. Besides you go for FULL NORS rotation (NO Rail Shot rotation) Flamethrower/Pulse Cannon will be your bread and butter.

 

5) Loss of 5% damage output (while ion gas is active) (IF u use 4 armorings from Supercommando, this is negated so i would not mention it, as you WILL guard on arenas)

 

6) Loss of just under 100 bonus damage (probs like 8%) If you use shield generatior armed with high power/surge, you lose total of 64,86 TECH ONLY Damage, which under normal circumstances is less than 5,5% of your TECH damage.

 

But you get:

 

1) 1% armour rating (maybe 2% if u skip the Overload)

3) Movement speed slow on ion gas (crap but nonetheless)(Not that crapy but some prefer 1% armor rating)

4) Oil slick.......just wow - single handedly you just took the skill that helps your tank and use your main rotation ability PFT/PG

5) 20% shield absorption

6) 20% shield chance

10) 5% defense chance

13) 5% Straight reduction targets ALL damage! Applied as AOE also charges your PFT/PC (Combust)

14) GUARD. Yes, you can guard. I do not get why you had not even mentioned this one.

 

So all in all, if you are not going for full dongcleave, there will be one spot for you in arenas - hybrid tank.

Anyone else can do a better job at your position as a dps, but as a tank hybrid that does well with AOE damage, have nice group management, debuff skills, you are a very resonable option for a group.

 

This is why the hybrid ever came up. It is not designed for long fights on objectives (AKA 8v8), and it's sole purpose is the survivability for arenas.

Edited September 23, 2013 by Nezyrworks