Plz make tankasins not suck

[Jimvinny]

Your core issue is you want to play like a stand_your_ground heavy armor tank.. but you want to do it with a finesse based cloth wearing tank. You insist that by comparing damage parses between them you can demand that Bioware fix your clothie tank to be a stand_your_ground tank. It's not going to happen... no matter how much you insult others and stomp your feet. Reroll to a tank class with mechanics suited to your desired play style.. problem solved.

 

Cloth tanks are not for everyone. Leave it to those that can and do appreciate it for what it is.. understand how to play it.. and are successful with playing it.

 

Andryah, you need to step away, and educate yourself before trying to speak to something about which you have no clue.

 

This is NOT a L2P issue.

 

Go back, learn the math, read the analysis people much smarted than you have done, and keep your trap shut until you've done so.

Edited August 22, 2013 by Jimvinny

[Andryah]

Are you claiming that good class balance is to have some classes far behind on DPS? Why should Assassins surrender to being terrible DPS? It's not a mistake to assume that any given class should be able to hold his own in a DPS role.

 

I have to wonder if you're just trolling.

 

ALL AC choices represent choosing one strength at the expense of another. Each is designed to be excellent at some things an average at others. And.. I never said Assassin dps was terrible.. that was the other one who is crying tears all over this thread.

[Andryah]

Andryah, you need to step away, and educate yourself before trying to speak to something about which you have no clue.

 

This is NOT a L2P issue.

 

Go back, learn the math, read the analysis people much smarted than you have done, and keep your trap shut until you've done so.

 

You don't get to tell me what to do.. so stop trying.

 

It's not a learn to play issue.. it's an aptitude issue. Some people simply do not have the aptitude or desire to tank in a finesse based class. It's not for everyone... and that is OK. Some people just need to admit it's not for them and go with a traditional tank.

 

Too many people choose sins becaue they thought they could be clothwearing supermen in them and could tank or dps at the top of the scales in traditional manner. Fact is.. this AC does not do either in traiditonal manner. It's a class designed to be used with finesse to maximize it's potential. Some people want it to be faceroll style.. it's not and never will be.

 

The problem with the number crunchers is they don't factor in finesse... as there is not numerical value for it. This class excels in skilled hands.. and it suffers in the hands of the mediocre player. The challenges of the class cannot be resolved through number crunching.

Edited August 22, 2013 by Andryah

[MillionsKNives]

There is no position to forfeit. You are the one that is miserable trying to play the class, not me. I'm doing quite fine with it and it's much more interesting and fun to play then the traditional tank classes. It reminds me a lot of rogue tanking in Rift... which also was often complained about by people who really wanted a traditional tank.. that was not squishy if you were not on your toes 100% of the time.

 

Clearly you have a position of the tank being fine and it's all a L2P issue. That is what you've stated afterall. If you can't back it up however your argument holds no weight. You are free to continue with your incorrect assumptions and misrepresentations though.

 

Implying you have not failed.. does not mean you have not failed. Given your misery and discontent.. it speaks for itself.

 

Of course it doesn't, but you still have not provided anything to back up your labeling it as you have, which makes it nothing more than a red herring.

Edited August 22, 2013 by MillionsKNives

[MillionsKNives]

ALL AC choices represent choosing one strength at the expense of another. Each is designed to be excellent at some things an average at others. And.. I never said Assassin dps was terrible.. that was the other one who is crying tears all over this thread.

What strength would that be? I would really like to see examples of what DPS Assassins excel at.

 

The devs themselves have said that they aim to have all DPS within 5% of each other, but that is not even close to true at this time. That's not balance, not even as they've defined it.

 

You don't get to tell me what to do.. so stop trying.

 

It's not a learn to play issue.. it's an aptitude issue. Some people simply do not have the aptitude or desire to tank in a finesse based class. It's not for everyone... and that is OK. Some people just need to admit it's not for them and go with a traditional tank.

 

Too many people choose sins becaue they thought they could be clothwearing supermen in them and could tank or dps at the top of the scales in traditional manner. Fact is.. this AC does not do either in traiditonal manner. It's a class designed to be used with finesse to maximize it's potential. Some people want it to be faceroll style.. it's not and never will be.

 

The problem with the number crunchers is they don't factor in finesse... as there is not numerical value for it. This class excels in skilled hands.. and it suffers in the hands of the mediocre player. The challenges of the class cannot be resolved through number crunching.

 

It's easy to factor in finesse when the stats they use are based around those with high skill, which they have.

[Andryah]

Clearly you have a position of the tank being fine and it's all a L2P issue. That is what you've stated afterall. If you can't back it up however your argument holds no weight. You are free to continue with your incorrect assumptions and misrepresentations though.

 

I play the class in tank spec just fine. I know others that do just fine with it as well in game. Plenty in this thread have stepped in and said the same. So there is ample empirical evidence that the class is not broken and is quite capable of doing very challenging content in capable hands.

 

And to be clear.. this tank class plays and is played differently then other tank classes.. so this constant attempt to compare tank classes on data parses is pointless as it is simply not supported by empirical data of good players who play the class and say it plays fine.. even though like all classes.. it could use some tweaks here and there (welcome to MMOs).

 

Like all tanks.. there are certain encounters where you are at a disadvantage... which is why most raid guilds use multiple tank types to optimally work an encounter.

 

And lastly.. this class is not for everyone. A traditional tank player likely will not like this class very much. Too much work. Easier for them to play something more familiar for them.. and that is fine... nothing wrong with that at all.

[Andryah]

It's easy to factor in finesse when the stats they use are based around those with high skill, which they have.

 

Nonsense. Finesse is a human factor... and is not quantifiable by numbers per se. It operates outside of the game mechanics.. and is a solid factor in why some people do so well with a class and others do not. You cannot data quantify the skill and aptitude of the player...no matter how much you pretend to.

 

This is precisely why finesse based classes get so much heat and passion wrapped around them in gaming forums. The performance of the class cannot be distilled down to a set of stats, and skill rotations. It is also precisely why some players love this sort of class.. as it presents both challenge and fulfillment. But it's also the target of rage for the less enthusiastic fans of a class that is not simply run by the numbers.

Edited August 22, 2013 by Andryah

[Jimvinny]

You don't get to tell me what to do.. so stop trying.

 

It's not a learn to play issue.. it's an aptitude issue. Some people simply do not have the aptitude or desire to tank in a finesse based class. It's not for everyone... and that is OK. Some people just need to admit it's not for them and go with a traditional tank.

 

Too many people choose sins becaue they thought they could be clothwearing supermen in them and could tank or dps at the top of the scales in traditional manner. Fact is.. this AC does not do either in traiditonal manner. It's a class designed to be used with finesse to maximize it's potential. Some people want it to be faceroll style.. it's not and never will be.

 

The problem with the number crunchers is they don't factor in finesse... as there is not numerical value for it. This class excels in skilled hands.. and it suffers in the hands of the mediocre player. The challenges of the class cannot be resolved through number crunching.

 

Fine. I SUGGEST you take a step back and go educate yourself so you have at least some idea of what you are talking about. However, please feel free to take your own advice, and restrain yourself from telling other people what to do in the numerous other threads you're involved in.

 

This is not about finesse. Finesse does not help you avoid massive RNG spikes. finesse doesn't make up for dps that is lagging well behind other dps classes.

 

As for your assertion that people chose the class to face-roll themselves to the top of the charts, I think you are way out to lunch. Shadow dps'ers don't expect to be top of the charts. They would, however, appreciate being a lot closer than the 20% behind they currently are. Shadow tanks don't expect to have 50% DR. We would, however, appreciate not getting one shotted from 80% HP because one of our non-perfect healers took his attention away from us for 3 seconds to heal someone else.

 

I have no problem being a squishy light armor tank that derives a fair bit of his mitigation from self heals. I would like to be alive to be able to heal myself, however. And when a 43k terminate hits my 41k shadow in the face, that doesn't work out. When that same terminate hits my guardian tank buddy for 10k less, there is a problem. Or are you suggesting that it is okay that some tanks just not tank certain fights?

[MillionsKNives]

I play the class in tank spec just fine. I know others that do just fine with it as well in game. Plenty in this thread have stepped in and said the same. So there is ample empirical evidence that the class is not broken and is quite capable of doing very challenging content in capable hands.

 

No, that's anecdotal evidence.

 

And to be clear.. this tank class plays and is played differently then other tank classes.. so this constant attempt to compare tank classes on data parses is pointless as it is simply not supported by empirical data of good players who play the class and say it plays fine.. even though like all classes.. it could use some tweaks here and there (welcome to MMOs).

 

Data parses actually are empirical data (who knew). And those say that they underperform compared to the other tanks, mainly through dying much more often. And yes, it's certainly possible and useful (read, not pointless) to compare the tanks because all tanks should be viable in all encounters (shocking I know). Therefore if one tank performs notably (remember there is actual empirical data, not your anecdotal evidence) worse than the others in the majority of fights then it calls for balance.

 

Like all tanks.. there are certain encounters where you are at a disadvantage... which is why most raid guilds use multiple tank types to optimally work an encounter.

 

This only works if the advantaged vs. disadvantaged fights are balanced (imagine that, balance comes up in a discussion about balance), but they're not.

 

And lastly.. this class is not for everyone. A traditional tank player likely will not like this class very much. Too much work. Easier for them to play something more familiar for them.. and that is fine... nothing wrong with that at all.

 

On the face this statement would be fine if it wasn't just dripping with condescending subtext. But thankfully this issue has nothing to do with expectations of the class (whether it's supposed to be easy or hard) and everything to do with the class under performing in its role even if played well, so the statement has no bearing on the discussion.

[Jimvinny]

Nonsense. Finesse is a human factor... and is not quantifiable by numbers per se. It operates outside of the game mechanics.. and is a solid factor in why some people do so well with a class and others do not. You cannot data quantify the skill and aptitude of the player...no matter how much you pretend to.

 

This is precisely why finesse based classes get so much heat and passion wrapped around them in gaming forums. The performance of the class cannot be distilled down to a set of stats, and skill rotations. It is also precisely why some players love this sort of class.. as it presents both challenge and fulfillment. But it's also the target of rage for the less enthusiastic fans of a class that is not simply run by the numbers.

 

This is a load of garbage. In a numbers-based situation, which this MOST DEFINITELY is, you can't talk about operating outside of game mechanics. There's no such thing. There is what is measurable, and that's all that matters. This isn't religion. We're not talking to God here. This is a computer program, that operates purely based on math. If something outside my control causes me to die, when it would not have the same effect on either of the other tank classes, THERE IS A PROBLEM.

[MillionsKNives]

Nonsense. Finesse is a human factor... and is not quantifiable by numbers per se. It operates outside of the game mechanics.. and is a solid factor in why some people do so well with a class and others do not. You cannot data quantify the skill and aptitude of the player...no matter how much you pretend to.

 

This is precisely why finesse based classes get so much heat and passion wrapped around them in gaming forums. The performance of the class cannot be distilled down to a set of stats, and skill rotations. It is also precisely why some players love this sort of class.. as it presents both challenge and fulfillment. But it's also the target of rage for the less enthusiastic fans of a class that is not simply run by the numbers.

 

The nonsense is the connection you are trying to make. No one is trying to quantify how to play the class with finesse (which is still possible, but completely tangential to this thread), they are trying to quantify how well the class performs even with finesse. Your assertion that this is impossible is the nonsense here.

Edited August 22, 2013 by MillionsKNives

[Andryah]

And when a 43k terminate hits my 41k shadow in the face, that doesn't work out. When that same terminate hits my guardian tank buddy for 10k less, there is a problem.

 

See.. this is classic "stand your ground" tactics and thinking. It's simply an outdated concept in the modern MMO era. Maybe I have the benefit of having played rogue tanks in Rift.. so the mechanics of finesse over stand your ground are more real to me.

 

In a finesse tank.. if you don't have the particular skills up and ready to take on and mitigate a 43K hit... DON"T stand there and take it then. This is not rocket science.

 

You can play a heavy traditional tank that way.. but not a finesse tank. Well.. on any given event.. maybe you can get away with it.. but it is NOT the way to play the class. If you want to stand your ground on an massive assault.. do it with a traditional tank and a healer you know and trust.

 

Or are you suggesting that it is okay that some tanks just not tank certain fights?

 

Actually it is proven mechanics in raid guilds to use the right tank for the right job. Good guilds do that, rather then beat their head on a mechanic. No tank is designed to be top tier on all possible encounters.

 

On the other hand.. if you are running in PUGs and your the only tank.. then it sucks for you.

[Andryah]

The nonsense is the connection you are trying to make. No one is trying to quantify how to play the class with finesse (which is still possible, but completely tangential to this thread), they are trying to quantify how well the class performs even with finesse. Your assertion that this is impossible is the nonsense here.

 

Your assertion that the class is fundamentally broken and can't be played well and successfully is conflation and distortion.

[Jimvinny]

See.. this is classic "stand your ground" tactics and thinking. It's simply an outdated concept in the modern MMO era. Maybe I have the benefit of having played rogue tanks in Rift.. so the mechanics of finesse over stand your ground are more real to me.

 

In a finesse tank.. if you don't have the particular skills up and ready to take on and mitigate a 43K hit... DON"T stand there and take it then. This is not rocket science.

 

You can play a heavy traditional tank that way.. but not a finesse tank. Well.. on any given event.. maybe you can get away with it.. but it is NOT the way to play the class. If you want to stand your ground on an massive assault.. do it with a traditional tank and a healer you know and trust.

 

 

 

Actually it is proven mechanics in raid guilds to use the right tank for the right job. Good guilds do that, rather then beat their head on a mechanic. No tank is designed to be top tier on all possible encounters.

 

On the other hand.. if you are running in PUGs and your the only tank.. then it sucks for you.

 

If that's your opinion, we have nothing further to discuss, because you clearly have no concept of class balance whatsoever. Thanks for clearing that up.

[MillionsKNives]

See.. this is classic "stand your ground" tactics and thinking. It's simply an outdated concept in the modern MMO era. Maybe I have the benefit of having played rogue tanks in Rift.. so the mechanics of finesse over stand your ground are more real to me.

 

In a finesse tank.. if you don't have the particular skills up and ready to take on and mitigate a 43K hit... DON"T stand there and take it then. This is not rocket science.

 

You can play a heavy traditional tank that way.. but not a finesse tank. Well.. on any given event.. maybe you can get away with it.. but it is NOT the way to play the class. If you want to stand your ground on an massive assault.. do it with a traditional tank and a healer you know and trust.

 

What are you smoking? We are talking about a tank, if the tank can't take a hit he is not a tank. There is no finesse here that will save him from a 43k hit with 41k health. Your proposed solution is "let the real tank tank, and you can spin your saber in the corner by yourself, with finesse"

 

Actually it is proven mechanics in raid guilds to use the right tank for the right job. Good guilds do that, rather then beat their head on a mechanic. No tank is designed to be top tier on all possible encounters.

 

On the other hand.. if you are running in PUGs and your the only tank.. then it sucks for you.

 

Every tank should be able to tank every encounter. Period. If it's designed to require a different/specific tank then either the tank or the mechanic is broken.

[MillionsKNives]

Your assertion that the class is fundamentally broken and can't be played well and successfully is conflation and distortion.

 

Your assertion that the above is my argument is conflation and distortion.

[Jimvinny]

Your assertion that the above is my argument is conflation and distortion.

 

Good thing I refreshed. I was going to type nearly the exact same thing.

[Andryah]

What are you smoking? We are talking about a tank, if the tank can't take a hit he is not a tank. There is no finesse here that will save him from a 43k hit with 41k health. Your proposed solution is "let the real tank tank, and you can spin your saber in the corner by yourself, with finesse"

 

What are you smoking?? More nonsense. Go play your traditional tank if you can't do anything but stand still and be a target dummy.

 

Every tank should be able to tank every encounter. Period. If it's designed to require a different/specific tank then either the tank or the mechanic is broken.

 

More nonsense. 10 years ago.. maybe. But todays' MMOs like to mix it up for players.. which is why they provide multiple different tank classes with differing strengths and weaknesses.

 

Protip: Raids are designed to make them a challenge.. including proper choice of mechanics, and class mix to play them successfully.

 

Apparently you want weak sauce faceroll tank and spank encounters. But the MMOs have moved beyond this... or rather the raiding quilds have moved beyond this and will theorycraft the optimal group mix for an encounter.. including changing up tanks depending on the boss.

[MillionsKNives]

What are you smoking?? More nonsense. Go play your traditional tank if you can't do anything but stand still and be a target dummy.

 

 

 

More nonsense. 10 years ago.. maybe. But todays' MMOs like to mix it up for players.. which is why they provide multiple different tank classes with differing strengths and weaknesses.

 

Protip: Raids are designed to make them a challenge.. including proper choice of mechanics, and class mix to play them successfully.

 

Apparently you want weak sauce faceroll tank and spank encounters. But the MMOs have moved beyond this... or rather the raiding quilds have moved beyond this and will theorycraft the optimal group mix for an encounter.. including changing up tanks depending on the boss.

 

Protip: requiring players to roll multiple tanks in order to clear content is broken mechanics.

 

Keep the strawman arguments coming though.

Edited August 22, 2013 by MillionsKNives

[Andryah]

Good thing I refreshed. I was going to type nearly the exact same thing.

 

You both need to cut your losses and go play a traditional tank.

[Andryah]

Protip: requiring players to roll multiple tanks in order to clear content is broken mechanics.

 

Is it possible for you to get any more silly and snarky?

 

Protip: Ops are a group effort. You don't solo them. Stop giving bad advice to returning players.

Edited August 22, 2013 by Andryah

[MillionsKNives]

You both need to cut your losses and go play a traditional tank.

 

I have one thank you, but it's boring.

[Jimvinny]

What are you smoking?? More nonsense. Go play your traditional tank if you can't do anything but stand still and be a target dummy.

 

 

 

More nonsense. 10 years ago.. maybe. But todays' MMOs like to mix it up for players.. which is why they provide multiple different tank classes with differing strengths and weaknesses.

 

Protip: Raids are designed to make them a challenge.. including proper choice of mechanics, and class mix to play them successfully.

 

Apparently you want weak sauce faceroll tank and spank encounters. But the MMOs have moved beyond this... or rather the raiding quilds have moved beyond this and will theorycraft the optimal group mix for an encounter.. including changing up tanks depending on the boss.

 

Pure ignorance. This is not about developers designing content to force theory crafters to establish optimal group compositions. This is about developers not caring enough to test content with certain classes, or even making a reasonable effort to balance the individual classes.

 

And enough with your protips. Your demonstrated lack of competence nullifies any perceived value these condescending tidbits may have to offer.

[MillionsKNives]

Is it possible for you to get any more silly and snarky?

 

Protip: Ops are a group effort. You don't solo them.

 

I can ask the same as you. Your posts have only gotten sillier, and I must imagine the ridiculousness will surely come to a head at some point.

 

I didn't realize that making players sit out of content because of their class made it more of a group effort. I on the other hand would like all classes to be balanced enough to be viable, even if not the best choice for specific subsets of content.

Edited August 22, 2013 by MillionsKNives

[Vis-Tecum]

and class mix to play them successfully.

.

 

pretty sure operations are not designed to be only beaten by certain classes maybe raiding in other games but I am fairly confident that it is biowares objective to make all classes viable in both their roles for every operation and mode

 

maybe I read your comment wrong but a game designer would have to be pretty out of touch with the game to say "sorry assassins aren't meant to tank in this fight use something else", or even worse if it was "sorry if you want to tank NIM mode don't roll a assassin tank"