BrianDavion Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 No intercede you have force speed. a jugg doesn't Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonexadon Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 (edited) gamble that usually results in wipes on hard encounters due to aggro drop I disagree with this very much. So long as you have one tank up , the other tank can stealth out it won't cause any issues. It's a gamble of-course but amazing when it is pulled off. Edited August 20, 2013 by Dragonexadon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmjarec Posted August 20, 2013 Author Share Posted August 20, 2013 you have force speed. a jugg doesn't Id ive up force speed for an ability that buffs and instantly teleports me to a target. So why again is force speed better for tanking? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berjiz Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 16 mans are much easier than 8 man as far as keeping tanks alive IMHO. That said I ran with an under-geared Shadow (not as under geared) 8 man.and we also did fine for as far as we got. Admittedly we quit after the weekly because people had other commitments. Do you have the torparse of the fight? Just want to see what was going on during that fight for my own personal interest. All of that said I believe the two healers in my guild , Lexi and Sythface, are really top notch. So clearly that factors into the experiences i have in HM. Here it is: http://www.torparse.com/a/354683/22/0/Damage+Taken We switched to 8man later had no problems with the fight, the spike dmg dropped about 10k or so. I'm not sure how bad the spikiness was, I think I might have been killed by it a few times. Since we never got that far into the fight I am not sure how it would have been after my cds were out, we wiped at around 1 min into the fight. We were mainly wipeing because a lot of people had problems seeing the snipers at all and jumping to them, you know like when it takes 10+ secs to see the mailbox on the fleet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmjarec Posted August 21, 2013 Author Share Posted August 21, 2013 (edited) I disagree with this very much. So long as you have one tank up , the other tank can stealth out it won't cause any issues. It's a gamble of-course but amazing when it is pulled off. So obvioudly its only viable with two tanks and sketchy at that. Sounds like a great tactic Oooooorrrr they could just buff them on par with juggs Apparently it takes more than 3000 views and 8 pages to get any attention. Kinda funny since its one of the biggest active thread. Bioware asleep at the wheel. Edited August 21, 2013 by mmjarec Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmjarec Posted August 21, 2013 Author Share Posted August 21, 2013 (edited) OP, You need to accept the fact that there will never be a truly homogenous lineup of tanks in this game. Some tanks will be able to go through certain fights better than others due to their individual class mechanics. If you want your shadow/assassin tank to be fixed, this thread needs to contain the empirical evidence you speak of (copy and paste it from EJ if you want), and then post your argument as to what items need to be fixed. In order for your response to be valid, it should contain the "napkin math" you feel would justify the changes to said skills and talents. Finally, your argument should be free of any unnecessary pathos. These are the types of posts most likely to be read and truly considered by the devs. They don't really care about you issues unless you have numbers to provide them that they can go back and test with. Im not going fishing for data that can be eazily found by someone that isnt too lazy to look it up. The only data you really need is play a sin or at least read the forums where there is more ample evidence of thirr failure as a whole. Once again people come and say dont expect equality yet if it were your class that is worst in game im sure you woud be saying so apparently a 20 page plus long post describing the issues on the class forums are just all ppl who suck. You dont need more parse info considerig all you have to do is read anywhere on the forums or play the class at 55 Subpar dps in any spec Subpar tanking Whats left? I dont ask for a mirror of playstyle all i ask for is to not be at a disadvantage in EVERYTHING i do Edited August 21, 2013 by mmjarec Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmjarec Posted August 22, 2013 Author Share Posted August 22, 2013 It would be nice for an official response that this will be adressed since its alreday a known issue for anyone thats tried to tank above 55 hm played another class with equivalent gear in pvp. What exactly are the benefits of sin again? Dps? Nope. Lowest dps on game. Stealth? Nope. Cc? Nope. Still wondering the reason anyone would pick a sin based on viability. Atm ppl play them just because of mechanics or double saber because numerically or strategically there is 0 reason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ugolino Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 So really why are they even there they have 0 usefulness Good point. You heard it here first, folks. People want assassins removed from the game. I mean, it seems a little radical to me, but the players have spoken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafaman Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 (edited) It would be nice for an official response that this will be adressed since its alreday a known issue for anyone thats tried to tank above 55 hm played another class with equivalent gear in pvp. What exactly are the benefits of sin again? Dps? Nope. Lowest dps on game. Stealth? Nope. Cc? Nope. Still wondering the reason anyone would pick a sin based on viability. Atm ppl play them just because of mechanics or double saber because numerically or strategically there is 0 reason Heh. So... first lets get this out of the way. There is also data out there that argues against your assertion regarding Shadow tanks in general. You somehow assume that general opinion equals truth which is flawed reasoning. Now, I will not start arguing data with you as it is obvious that you have already decided to make yourself the authority on what makes a great tank and why Shadows/Assassins tanks are subpar. Unfortunately, that leaves me with really only one option... You need to L2P a Shadow/Assassin tank. Edited August 22, 2013 by Rafaman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmjarec Posted August 22, 2013 Author Share Posted August 22, 2013 Heh. So... first lets get this out of the way. There is also data out there that argues against your assertion regarding Shadow tanks in general. You somehow assume that general opinion equals truth which is flawed reasoning. Now, I will not start arguing data with you as it is obvious that you have already decided to make yourself the authority on what makes a great tank and why Shadows/Assassins tanks are subpar. Unfortunately, that leaves me with really only one option... You need to L2P a Shadow/Assassin tank. The fact the is ample proof via statistical data on ej amongst other sites and the fact that there wouldnt be a class forum full of evidence based encounters that the are weak must not be enough proof for you. I prove it wether you accept it is not my problem i have 3 55s two of which are tanks and ive had encounters survived on jugg that would be impossible on sin. Just as you say that a whole forum of evidence isnt enough for you i say my personal experience is more than enough to justify rather than an assertion that people that admittedly have t even playec a sin somehow know they are fine. Playing has nothing to do with empirical data so its not a l20 issue even thiugh its obviously irresistable to throw it out there due to your general laziness in providing any valid argument Obviously the 20 plus page thread detailing the issues from multiple sources and documented numbers dont prove anything versus your l20 copout Ive stated multiple examples of why they are weak. Low mitigation and crucial abilites like intercede not being available in any form are just a few. You can argue that somehow you are all knowing based on what? You non existant evidnce or personal experience with a class. Thats like saying a coach potato football fan knows more than a NFL coach or player Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MillionsKNives Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 Heh. So... first lets get this out of the way. There is also data out there that argues against your assertion regarding Shadow tanks in general. You somehow assume that general opinion equals truth which is flawed reasoning. Now, I will not start arguing data with you as it is obvious that you have already decided to make yourself the authority on what makes a great tank and why Shadows/Assassins tanks are subpar. Unfortunately, that leaves me with really only one option... You need to L2P a Shadow/Assassin tank. When a tank can get insta-gibbed from 80% health due to bad RNG that makes a bad tank. And because they're prone to random streaks of high hits an assassin is more likely to see lower health on average to begin with. There are also no tools given to Assassin's that can prevent this in all cases. Having the best mean mitigation (which is what I'm assuming you're trying to bring up) does nothing to help a tank survive if he can't survive the spikes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitru Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 Heh. So... first lets get this out of the way. There is also data out there that argues against your assertion regarding Shadow tanks in general. You somehow assume that general opinion equals truth which is flawed reasoning. The "data" you refer to are individual data points of people that are only looking at the binary success/failure of single instance without any kind of non-cursory analysis. So, yeah, the "data" that says that Shadow tanks are fine are out there, but it's only because it's not actually paying attention to what we number crunchers are actually saying. No one has *ever* said that Shadows cannot clear content, which is the only thing that the contradictory evidence ever seems to be able to be paying attention to (e.g. "I clear content just fine on my Shadow tank so Shadows just dandy!", which ignore the fact that it's not the *Shadow* that is performing well but rather their healers; it's been proven numerous times that the performance of a Shadow tank in endgame content is *entirely* dependent upon the quality of the healer rather than the Shadow themself). We number crunchers have focused upon the trend in performance compared to the other tanks, specifically in reference to likelihood of a Shadow in what *should* be survivable circumstances (i.e. you shouldn't *have* to be constantly topped off in order to avoid getting killed in a single GCD for a mechanic that repeats itself more than 1-2 times per encounter while not being telegraphed thanks to the RNG based nature of it). We're dealing with statistical likelihood, not binary analysis of individual cases. Anyone that *does* look to the individual cases as anything other than evidence that it is *possible* to clear the content with a Shadow tank has no idea how screwed up extrapolation from a single data point is. If you only choose to look at those data points that say that Shadow tanks are fine, you're simply cherry-picking your data which means that you decided upon your answer before you even started looking into it. It's not even a question now of whether Shadow tanks are broken now. It's been pretty much *proven* beyond all reasonable doubt, mathematical or otherwise. The only people arguing that they're fine are simply people that joined in late and are too lazy to actually acquaint themselves with the actual discussion before popping up with assertions that have already been proven wrong several times over. They parrot the same thing over and over again without actually looking at *anything* other than their own experiences and the vague assertions of those that agree with them. There isn't a single iota of data that has actually been analyzed by *either* side of the argument that contradicts the assertion that Shadow tanks need to be fixed. All of the math points to it, and it's not like we even went at it from a single perspective. We've done simulations, analysis of comparative spikiness, and analysis of comparative likelihood to die from individual attacks (which is now being bolstered by the creation of a more complex histogram of tank hp so that the math doesn't operate under the assumption that all tank ACs share the same likelihood of being at the same hp, which is wrong just on the face of it). The argument that there is evidence that disproves the need for a Shadow tank fix is simply ignorant. If you honestly bring it up as if it were even remotely capable of being proven true, it doesn't do anything except prove that you don't know anything about what's being discussed (not that most of the people discussing this know more than a little; there is a tiny minority of people on the forums that have seen and actually understand the analysis since most people don't give a **** about the math but simply care about the conclusions drawn from it). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 (edited) When a tank can get insta-gibbed from 80% health due to bad RNG that makes a bad tank. And because they're prone to random streaks of high hits an assassin is more likely to see lower health on average to begin with. There are also no tools given to Assassin's that can prevent this in all cases. Having the best mean mitigation (which is what I'm assuming you're trying to bring up) does nothing to help a tank survive if he can't survive the spikes. Get real. The class wears CLOTH, not hardened armor plate. By definition.. any tank wearing cloth is going to rely on skills rather then raw AF based mitigation principles. As such.. they are more susceptible to a "lucky shot" just as they are more prone to be missed or marginally hit as well.... HENCE SPIKY DAMAGE mechanics. If you want durability vs RNG.. you roll a heavy armor tank. If you want to tank based on a finesse based defense.. you go with a cloth tank. This should be self-evident to anyone with an average or above IQ. If you wanted heavy armor tank durability.. but rolled a cloth tank anyway.. either learn to play with finesse or admit you made a mistake and reroll IMO. It's not like you did not know you were going to wear cloth and rely on avoidance mechanics to survive in tank mode. And if you ignored that glaring fact.. and rolled a cloth tank anyway.. you screwed up. And NO... I'm not saying that clothies don't need some love..... I'm pointing out the inherent nature of cloth wearing tanks working differently then heavy armor tanks. ALL clasess need some attention and love over time in any MMO.. but it has nothing to do in this case with the tank nature of this class. Edited August 22, 2013 by Andryah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmjarec Posted August 22, 2013 Author Share Posted August 22, 2013 The "data" you refer to are individual data points of people that are only looking at the binary success/failure of single instance without any kind of non-cursory analysis. So, yeah, the "data" that says that Shadow tanks are fine are out there, but it's only because it's not actually paying attention to what we number crunchers are actually saying. No one has *ever* said that Shadows cannot clear content, which is the only thing that the contradictory evidence ever seems to be able to be paying attention to (e.g. "I clear content just fine on my Shadow tank so Shadows just dandy!", which ignore the fact that it's not the *Shadow* that is performing well but rather their healers; it's been proven numerous times that the performance of a Shadow tank in endgame content is *entirely* dependent upon the quality of the healer rather than the Shadow themself). We number crunchers have focused upon the trend in performance compared to the other tanks, specifically in reference to likelihood of a Shadow in what *should* be survivable circumstances (i.e. you shouldn't *have* to be constantly topped off in order to avoid getting killed in a single GCD for a mechanic that repeats itself more than 1-2 times per encounter while not being telegraphed thanks to the RNG based nature of it). We're dealing with statistical likelihood, not binary analysis of individual cases. Anyone that *does* look to the individual cases as anything other than evidence that it is *possible* to clear the content with a Shadow tank has no idea how screwed up extrapolation from a single data point is. If you only choose to look at those data points that say that Shadow tanks are fine, you're simply cherry-picking your data which means that you decided upon your answer before you even started looking into it. It's not even a question now of whether Shadow tanks are broken now. It's been pretty much *proven* beyond all reasonable doubt, mathematical or otherwise. The only people arguing that they're fine are simply people that joined in late and are too lazy to actually acquaint themselves with the actual discussion before popping up with assertions that have already been proven wrong several times over. They parrot the same thing over and over again without actually looking at *anything* other than their own experiences and the vague assertions of those that agree with them. There isn't a single iota of data that has actually been analyzed by *either* side of the argument that contradicts the assertion that Shadow tanks need to be fixed. All of the math points to it, and it's not like we even went at it from a single perspective. We've done simulations, analysis of comparative spikiness, and analysis of comparative likelihood to die from individual attacks (which is now being bolstered by the creation of a more complex histogram of tank hp so that the math doesn't operate under the assumption that all tank ACs share the same likelihood of being at the same hp, which is wrong just on the face of it). The argument that there is evidence that disproves the need for a Shadow tank fix is simply ignorant. If you honestly bring it up as if it were even remotely capable of being proven true, it doesn't do anything except prove that you don't know anything about what's being discussed (not that most of the people discussing this know more than a little; there is a tiny minority of people on the forums that have seen and actually understand the analysis since most people don't give a **** about the math but simply care about the conclusions drawn from it). Exactly the only info i personally need is playtime experience across multiple tanks with identical gear mods and same healer which i have done but since people tend to wrongly discount actual playtime stats have been provided time and time again as a whole they support my argument but cherry pickerd will always latch onto something out of context to try and disprove but fail to realize actually playing is the best proof one can have Yet time and time again ppl with no experience try to invalidate an argument for no reason other than being a social jerk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MillionsKNives Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 Get real. The class wears CLOTH, not hardened armor plate. By definition.. any tank wearing cloth is going to rely on skills rather then raw AF based mitigation principles. As such.. they are more susceptible to a "lucky shot" just as they are more prone to be missed or marginally hit as well.... HENCE SPIKY DAMAGE mechanics. If you want durability vs RNG.. you roll a heavy armor tank. If you want to tank based on a finesse based defense.. you go with a cloth tank. This should be self-evident to anyone with an average or above IQ. If you wanted heavy armor tank durability.. but rolled a cloth tank anyway.. either learn to play with finesse or admit you made a mistake and reroll IMO. It's not like you did not know you were going to wear cloth and rely on avoidance mechanics to survive in tank mode. And if you ignored that glaring fact.. and rolled a cloth tank anyway.. you screwed up. And NO... I'm not saying that clothies don't need some love..... I'm pointing out the inherent nature of cloth wearing tanks working differently then heavy armor tanks. ALL clasess need some attention and love over time in any MMO.. but it has nothing to do in this case with the tank nature of this class. Then what's your point? They do need love, because of what I said above. You're not even disagreeing with me on that, just insulting for the sake of it. No one ever said that they need to be the same as the other tanks, but there is a minimum level of DR, through armor rating increase or otherwise, that Assassins should be given such that my comment above isn't an issue. It has nothing to do with finesse or skill, it has to do with unavoidable damage if you get bad luck. RNG spikes are fine as long as they aren't likely to kill one tank considerably more than the others through no fault of their own, assuming minimal skill levels of themselves and healers. I might not have made that clear enough so I'll repeat it, "through no fault of their own". You also act like it's unprecedented for Assassins to have decent armor levels. You are aware that they get an armor boost through their charge correct? It was actually significantly higher before the multiple rounds of nerfs, which has only led to them becoming even more spiky over time. They've clearly gone too far with lowering the DR and the pros for Assassins just don't make up for it, especially given the current designs (i.e., if played correctly, healers aren't overly stressed on resources keeping any of the tanks alive, therefore requiring less overall healing makes little difference). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 (edited) Then what's your point? They do need love, because of what I said above. You're not even disagreeing with me on that, just insulting for the sake of it. Read again.. this time ... don't skim. Better yet.. let me TL;DR it for you: do not expect a cloth wearing tank to play like a heavy armor wearing tank. This is not new news to this MMO. It's been true in other MMOs. as well as in Rift for medium armor tanks. They rely on finesse and mechanics over brute strand your ground damage mitigation. Play what you are comfortable playing.. which appears to be a heavy armor tank that stands it's ground rather then uses skills to mitigate damage. Edited August 22, 2013 by Andryah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmjarec Posted August 22, 2013 Author Share Posted August 22, 2013 (edited) Then what's your point? They do need love, because of what I said above. You're not even disagreeing with me on that, just insulting for the sake of it. No one ever said that they need to be the same as the other tanks, but there is a minimum level of DR, through armor rating increase or otherwise, that Assassins should be given such that my comment above isn't an issue. It has nothing to do with finesse or skill, it has to do with unavoidable damage if you get bad luck. RNG spikes are fine as long as they aren't likely to kill one tank considerably more than the others through no fault of their own, assuming minimal skill levels of themselves and healers. I might not have made that clear enough so I'll repeat it, "through no fault of their own". You also act like it's unprecedented for Assassins to have decent armor levels. You are aware that they get an armor boost through their charge correct? It was actually significantly higher before the multiple rounds of nerfs, which has only led to them becoming even more spiky over time. They've clearly gone too far with lowering the DR and the pros for Assassins just don't make up for it, especially given the current designs (i.e., if played correctly, healers aren't overly stressed on resources keeping any of the tanks alive, therefore requiring less overall healing makes little difference). Exactly the nerfs went too far in one direction without adequate compensation to mitigate nerfs which overall reduced efectiveness too far And i wont even get into how gimp the dps spec is. Prett much they did the same thing with dos as they did tanking too many nerfs with insufficient compensation the other direction. Anyone plz point out that i am wrong with some evidence? Thats right. You cant. Its well known the only thing sins are worse at than tanking is dpsing Edited August 22, 2013 by mmjarec Sp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 (edited) Exactly the only info i personally need is playtime experience across multiple tanks with identical gear mods and same healer which i have done but since people tend to wrongly discount actual playtime stats have been provided time and time again as a whole they support my argument but cherry pickerd will always latch onto something out of context to try and disprove but fail to realize actually playing is the best proof one can have Yet time and time again ppl with no experience try to invalidate an argument for no reason other than being a social jerk Your core issue is you want to play like a stand_your_ground heavy armor tank.. but you want to do it with a finesse based cloth wearing tank. You insist that by comparing damage parses between them you can demand that Bioware fix your clothie tank to be a stand_your_ground tank. It's not going to happen... no matter how much you insult others and stomp your feet. Reroll to a tank class with mechanics suited to your desired play style.. problem solved. Cloth tanks are not for everyone. Leave it to those that can and do appreciate it for what it is.. understand how to play it.. and are successful with playing it. Edited August 22, 2013 by Andryah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reno_Tarshil Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 Would rather tank on my Shadow who is rping as the Champion of Kirkwall, Garrett'Hawke than on my Guardian who is rping as The Dark Lord of the Sith and Prodigal Knight of the Republic, Révãn. My Shadow tanks just fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MillionsKNives Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 (edited) Read again.. this time ... don't skim. Better yet.. let me TL;DR it for you: do not expect a cloth wearing tank to play like a heavy armor wearing tank. This is not new news to this MMO. It's been true in other MMOs. as well as in Rift for medium armor tanks. They rely on finesse and mechanics over brute strand your ground damage mitigation. Play what you are comfortable playing.. which appears to be a heavy armor tank that stands it's ground rather then uses skills to mitigate damage. Read again...this time ... don't skim. I already addressed the difference between the armor. P.S., Interestingly enough, despite a misunderstanding with your last paragraph I actually responded to what you said. Unlike this post, where you read my first couple sentences and skip the rest. Edited August 22, 2013 by MillionsKNives Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 And i wont even get into how gimp the dps spec is. Prett much they did the same thing with dos as they did tanking too many nerfs with insufficient compensation the other direction. Anyone plz point out that i am wrong with some You chose the wrong AC if you want to be excellent dps. Learn from your mistakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 (edited) I already addressed the difference between the armor. No you did not. You tired to rationalize using the obvious.. and failed. Fact: you are playing the class wrong. Adjust or reroll to a class you can play.. because it is clear you want a traditional tank class. NO cloth/leather tank is ever traditional in any MMO. Edited August 22, 2013 by Andryah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MillionsKNives Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 (edited) No you did not. You tired to rationalize using the obvious.. and failed. Fact: you are playing the class wrong. Adjust or reroll to a class you can play.. because it is clear you want a traditional tank class. NO cloth/leather tank is every traditional in any MMO. Asserting that I have failed does not make it so. Make a counter argument or forfeit your position. Also, a tip: if you are going to try and claim something as "fact" please state an actual fact. Edited August 22, 2013 by MillionsKNives Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 (edited) Asserting that I have failed does not make it so. Make a counter argument or forfeit your position. There is no position to forfeit. You are the one that is miserable trying to play the class, not me. I'm doing quite fine with it and it's much more interesting and fun to play then the traditional tank classes. It reminds me a lot of rogue tanking in Rift... which also was often complained about by people who really wanted a traditional tank.. that was not squishy if you were not on your toes 100% of the time. Implying you have not failed.. does not mean you have not failed. Given your misery and discontent.. it speaks for itself. Edited August 22, 2013 by Andryah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MillionsKNives Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 You chose the wrong AC if you want to be excellent dps. Learn from your mistakes. Are you claiming that good class balance is to have some classes far behind on DPS? Why should Assassins surrender to being terrible DPS? It's not a mistake to assume that any given class should be able to hold his own in a DPS role. I have to wonder if you're just trolling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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