Rough Draft submissions and vote thread

[Luckygunslinger]

I hope vengeance stops sucking in pvp soon. Rage is boring.

 

At least Rage works.

[Luckygunslinger]

Hmmmm, thought of this:

 

"Single Saber Mastery (Passive): Decreases the channel duration of Ravage by 50%."

 

Faster ravage! That would be quite nice.

 

Anyways, I think it's time we pick our questions:

 

PVP Question:

 

- There have been some concerns with the current applications of "Enraged Defense". Immortal tanks perceive it as useless, Vengeance Jugs absolutely love it, and Rage Jugs are indifferent. We realize you've linked the existing abilities for our benefit generically speaking. However we the Jug community, would like to see more specific applications of this ability, intrinsic to each tree. Additionally, we would ask for separate "threat dumps". Once again, the Vengeance tree has a beautiful synergy with Enraged Defense within its spec. Would you create unique and featable options for Enraged Defense within the Rage and Immortal trees?

 

 

 

PVE Question:

 

- We are very happy with our current Jug pve experience within Rage and Immortal. There is a common concern for the heavy reliance on RNG within the Vengeance tree. Specifically, we the Jug community have voiced viable solutions for the current ability "Rampage" and "Seething Hatred". We are asking you to please take a closer look at the way these abilities operate. Would you consider examining some of our suggestions? Our wish is for a bridge to be built between the pve and pvp functionality with this spec, as well as sort out the issue of 'lucky procs' within Vengeance which is where our issue seems to be.

 

General Question

 

- Aside from the problems previously expressed with graphical errors/jug bugs, we would ask for "skilled utility". What we mean by that is we want more synergies between the respective trees. Would it be possible to include stackable debuffs allowable only through separate specs? We want to have special "jug specific" utilities that empower the entire team when applied in concert. Instead of constantly asking for more blind dps, we instead ask for options to debuff our targets more effectively. We jugs like to work for our damage potential. Would there be possibilities for an enhanced Juggernaut utility such as this?

 

Seems fine. I think we should put this forward. Just added emphasis on the lucky proc issue, might as well point them to the problem we as a community are seeing, rather than seeing 'Take a look'.

Edited August 23, 2013 by Luckygunslinger

[Aelaias]

...guys. Imagine the day vengeance jugs parse higher than marauders.

 

 

*crickets*

 

 

 

I don't know how many times I've posted in the last couple weeks. I've compiled excellent suggestions(which evolved quite nicely), and have coordinated most of the trenchwork. Perhaps some people don't like my prose or refuse to read it lol.

 

The point is, we can not keep asking for more dps more dps. Instead we can ask for more reliance and protection from rng. All this talk for offensive cooldowns, alacrity boosts, I'll warrant will bring disappointment with the response. I say we stick to enraged defense, ask to examine the vengeance tree, And consider a realistic utility. IF we received enhanced "jug specific" debuff capabilities, this would assist the group alot, and would not threaten the developers to rewrite the game. Let's not get carried away.

 

Then why are we even concerned with RNG? I don't suppose it's due to the fact that the dps is only competitively effective when you have a lucky chain of procs and not because the community wants to even the dps out? Because if the latter is true y'all just fighting against math and that will not work out too well. I am pretty sure vigilance/vengeance players want more dps and with good reason.

 

I think that the question regarding RNG is perfectly salient from both pvp and pve perspectives. Having said that whenever you ask a question it pays to consider possible answers perhaps to inform the formulation of the question. Let's say we ask the question directly, the proc mechanic of ravage creates dps which is highly unreliable in both pvp and pve, makes the class less effective, desirable, multiple parses blah blah, do you feel the mechanic is appropriate for effective/unique play style blah blah. And let's say they agree: "You poor dears have suffered too long, shatter has a 12 second cooldown it should have a higher proc chance bonus, lets say 45% from 30". Great, now we have a slightly higher chance to proc ravage, woopty do. Pve people are happy, straight up dps buff, a bit closer to the top performers, still no new utility but at least. What does that do for pvp? Precious little.

 

I have seen many people say that vengeance/vigilance misses something they can't quite put their finger on. They can put their finger on it but are afraid to come out and say it, its dps. It's the ability to keep up with target to do dps, its the ability to control target outside of force push and avoid being controlled outside of 4 sec (2.5 useable) unstoppable, its the ability to burst target down partly due to ravage rng and partly due to ravage being let's say unreliable as a source of burst even when its up, its the low crit chance. 6% damage bonus in shien? Rage has 9% for 6 seconds after every smash along with baseline 30% armor ignore. How is that for single target burst? I can smash, and proceed to apply force crush and complete master strike barring cc within those 6 sec. Yet these unabashed morons thought that letting vig/veng keep the 60% dispatch crit bonus would be too much.

 

I think it pays to compare vengeance to carnage as I think they are mechanically very close, dots notwithstanding. Both rely on RNG but while carnage is guaranteed a huge burst from its RNG vengeance gets to do a stationary channel. This is the part that I have an issue with. Upping the proc rate is not enough, the abilities should be readjusted. Either a large bonus to dispatch crit chance (what monkey at the bioware office thought that 9k+ aoe crits are ok but 7-8k single target ability is too much?) or reworking ravage such that the last and most difficult to get off tick is not responsible for ~50% of the entire ability's damage. In other words not only should higher dps be more assured, the class has to be able to deliver it faster. And that right there is a question.

Edited August 23, 2013 by Aelaias

[ssfish]

Raising Shatter to a 45% proc rate will not increase our top end DPS (our DPS cap, if you will) at all. With regards to Rampage, that is determined by the 9 second internal cooldwon. The Shatter proc increase will just make the higher windows of DPS easier to achieve consistently.

 

The easiest DPS buff that they could give Vengeance (though certainly not the best) would be to make our non-rotational abilities (ie: not Impale, Shatter, Scream, Ravage) more powerful. This would give us the ability to keep competitive (though not amazing) DPS through the bad RNG runs, while letting the good RNG fights get a little more bang in the (very few) filler windows that come during a good proc fight.

 

It would also shift the burden of our DPS away from t hose core abilities slightly, meaning that in PvP Vengeance Juggs could feel less pressure to get a Ravage off, yet still have it provide the burst when they are able to use it through a full channel.

[ArenCordial]

After reading the Vanguard/PT and Sage/Sorcerer questions I think we'll get a 'its working as intended' or 'l2p' answer to any Vengeance related question. Hybrid classes aren't meant to perform at competitive levels to single role classes apparently. Edited August 24, 2013 by ArenCordial

[Luckygunslinger]

Raising Shatter to a 45% proc rate will not increase our top end DPS (our DPS cap, if you will) at all. With regards to Rampage, that is determined by the 9 second internal cooldwon. The Shatter proc increase will just make the higher windows of DPS easier to achieve consistently.

 

The easiest DPS buff that they could give Vengeance (though certainly not the best) would be to make our non-rotational abilities (ie: not Impale, Shatter, Scream, Ravage) more powerful. This would give us the ability to keep competitive (though not amazing) DPS through the bad RNG runs, while letting the good RNG fights get a little more bang in the (very few) filler windows that come during a good proc fight.

 

It would also shift the burden of our DPS away from those core abilities slightly, meaning that in PvP Vengeance Juggs could feel less pressure to get a Ravage off, yet still have it provide the burst when they are able to use it through a full channel.

 

Making our bleeds better would help. Draining Scream and Eviscerate are laughable at best to be considered a DoT. From memory, Draining scream does 600 damage in my current gear, Eviscerate like 700. They need to be A LOT stronger. They need to be so strong that our Downtime can use them as a crutch, half the damage of the attack over the course of the CD. For example, Impale is 9 seconds long, if it hits for 5000, thus, 2500 over the course of 9 seconds. The halving of the damage output might be TOO powerful but none the less, the bleeds are there, we might as well make use of them.

 

Honestly, I'm at the stage now where when I parse, the Proc not showing up isn't an issue anymore, because I've come to terms with the fact I cannot rely on it. Bleeds is one area, next area after that? Armor Penetration, alacrity boost? Something or anything will do. I think the bleeds are a good place to start if you don't want to alter Vengeance too much but buff it up.

 

Lethality Op's and Snipers can do a number on you if they apply their DoT's and let them tick away at you in PVP. If we have the same mechanic where our DoT's are powerful, so powerful in fact that they hurt you substantially by themselves without us being there, it's a start. After that? Auto-crit bleeds during Ravage Channel or, Vicious Slash makes your next 2 bleeds Crit or something will help. We're a surrogate DoT spec and Raw damage spec, it's time we become one or the other, no common ground, no half truth to it all.

 

One thing you could do is:

 

Draining Scream: Force Scream cause your causes the target to take [15%/30%] additional damage from your next 10 bleed effects.

Similar to Weakening Blast/Haemorrhaging Shot and Deathmark/Force Suppression. After that, cause all bleeds in effect during Ravage to Auto Crit. So you can choose to apply DoT's from Shatter and Impale for Ravage auto Crit or save one of them for after Ravage to try and Proc. This doesn't sort out the issue of the proc, but it makes Ravage A LOT more hard hitting, and scream, on top of Savagery will cause more powerful passive bleeds.

Edited August 24, 2013 by Luckygunslinger

[arkitip]

Honestly, our DoTs can't NEARLY tick for the same damage as... basically any other class. The upfront damage is too high to allow that.

[Marb]

Revamped pve question from ssfish and general question from ArenCordial.

_____________________________________

 

 

PvP) Enraged Defense is a strange ability, as it's a defensive cooldown that costs resources to use. The healing and threat reduction comes with a rage cost that's potentially so severe, that it leaves Juggernauts in a position where they have to sacrifice their damage in order to incrementally heal and lower threat over time while being attacked.

 

On the plus side, Enraged Defense is designed to work while under the effects of a hard CC (like a stun) and Vengeance can spec into Deafening Defense to give it 15% damage reduction while active. However, it is still dubious to use as a defensive cooldown for non-Vengeance Juggernauts and unreasonably expensive for both DPS specs to use as a threat drop.

 

Would the team consider removing the rage cost and rage consumption effect from Enraged Defense? Additionally, would improving the ability for other Juggernaut specs outside of Vengeance be something to consider as well?

 

_____________________________________

 

 

PvE) Outside of an armor debuff, which can be applied by multiple other classes/role assignments, Juggernaut DPS has very limited group utility. Off-tanking or emergency tanking is not encouraged by any mechanics at end-game, and is not practical without sacrificing competency in our primary role as damage dealers.

 

With the current state of affairs with regards to class balance, a group would be better served bringing a Juggernaut tank, a Sniper, or a Mercenary for their armor debuff, due to other benefits provided by those classes/roles in addition to the armor debuff. This leaves Juggernaut DPS players without something that they can offer a group as far as utility abilities are concerned. Further, Juggernaut DPS is woefully lacking with the exception of one specific spec in one specific fight in the current tier of content.

 

Is it intended that Juggernauts' damage output and group utility while using either of the DPS trees be sub-par due to the fact that we have the option of fulfilling the tank role?

 

~ssfish

_____________________________________

 

 

General) Vengeance currently suffers from two distinctive problems which affect its performance in both PvP and PvE.

 

First is the dependency on the Rampage proc to refresh Ravage. Unlike many other specs, Vengeance can not refresh Ravage through ability spam, as both Impale and Shatter have significant cooldowns accompanied with a comparatively low proc chance of similar abilities (30%). Given the long 30 sec cooldown on Ravage, this creates great variance in damage performance when DPS and rage generation dip down due to a 'no proc' scenario.

 

Second is the fact that Ravage is a melee channel, and suffers from all the vulnerabilities that go with these types of abilities. Much of its damage can be avoided simply with movement (which leaves the Juggernaut outside of melee range) and it can be be shut down with mezzes, stuns, knockbacks, etc. This is a significant issue due to how little damage our filler abilities deal, and how little rage we have to spend on them. This leaves Vengeance at great risk of being shut down completely in group PvP environments after the initial Ravage (from unstoppable).

 

To be clear, the community enjoys Ravage and considers it the cornerstone of the spec. With this in mind, would the combat team consider making some changes to ensure Vengeance can more easily deal reliable and consistent single target damage in PvE and PvP?

 

~ArenCordial, I edited this, mainly removing examples of possible fixes, i'm not sure if everyone agrees on what the right fixes would be to these issues.

Edited August 27, 2013 by Marb
Trying to shorten the questions.

[ArenCordial]

I began by taking UncleOst's questions and editing them, but they ended up becoming so heavily edited I instead opted to just start from scratch for the sake of coherency. No offence meant, I just have a different style of writing.

 

I feel that the lackluster responses in both the Vanguard and Sorc questions were partly due to poor questions. The responses from the devs so far has heavily influenced the style of my questions, in the hopes of receiving better answers in the vein of the sentinel top 3 (excellent questions by KBN).

 

I'm going to apologize in advance as the first question does touch on both PvP and PvE. This is due to the fact that enraged defense presents issues in both PvP and PvE. I have put the vengeance spec question in the general section, because PvP is an equally important concern in its implementation, and the previous general question was 100% specific to PvE.

 

______________________________________

 

 

PvP) Enraged Defense is a strange ability, as it is a defensive cooldown that costs resources to use. The healing and threat reduction comes with a rage cost that's potentially so severe, that it leaves Juggernauts in a position where they have to sacrifice their dps in order to incrementally heal and lower threat over time while being attacked.

 

On the plus side, Enraged Defense is designed to work while under the effects of a hard CC (like a stun) and Vengeance can spec into Deafening Defense to give it 15% damage reduction while active. However, it is still dubious to use as a defensive cooldown for non-Vengeance Juggernauts and unreasonably expensive for both dps specs to use as a threat drop.

 

Would the team consider removing the rage cost and rage consumption effect from Enraged Defense? Additionally, would improving the ability for other Juggernaut specs outside of Vengeance be something to consider as well?

 

______________________________________

 

 

PvE) From the impression given by the devs, they are (understandably) hesitant to address concerns that are raised when the example given is a direct comparison to another class: "class x has this! we should have this too!". So taking this on board, I'm going to carefully frame this question by drawing comparisons between the dps Juggernaut and the Marauder for these reasons:

 

 

• They are both AC's that stem from the same base class, Sith Warrior.
   
   
  
• They share a spec (Rage) and have abilities that are shared between both AC's.
   
   
  
• They are both heavily restricted to melee range.
   
   
  
• They both have no hard CC effects like stuns (dps Juggs).
   
   
  
• They both fill the same role in nightmare operations as melee dps.
   
   
  
• Defensively they differ. Dps Juggs have AoE mezz, knockback and heavy armor, and Marauders have very potent defensive cooldowns (to ensure a fair comparison).
  

 

Because of the range of classes that can provide the armor debuff, dps Juggernauts can often be in a position of redundancy compared to Marauders. Juggernauts feel that the damage they bring in Vengeance and Rage isn't enough to justify opting out of the superior damage and group utility of a Marauder if an armor debuff is already present. Off-tanking is very situational, and doesn't seem to be relevant in nightmare content, where as a Bloodthirst is always relevant and helpful.

 

If an armor debuff is provided by another class (which it often is), why would an ops group take an equally skilled dps Juggernaut over a Marauder for nightmare content? Is overall damage output supposed to be the cost that hybrid AC's pay for having access to taunts and heals?

 

______________________________________

 

 

General) Vengeance is dependent on its Rampage proc for sustained single target damage. This proc is linked to a 30% chance to reset Ravage when using only two abilities, Impale (9sec cd) and Shatter (12sec cd). Outside of these two abilities, there is no way to reset Ravage. This creates large dips in dps and rage generation, as our bleeds and filler abilities deal very little damage in comparison.

 

We recognize that the Rampage proc makes our spec feel dynamic, as there is the potential for proc streaks to occur which pushes our single target damage well beyond Rage in PvE encounters. However, the common occurrence of "no-proc" scenarios creates large variances in our performance from fight to fight. This has the flow-on effect of Rage Juggernauts becoming highly represented in PvE as well as PvP, due to their consistent single target damage (not to mention being able to deal their damage with 100% mobility and their famous AoE potency).

 

It was mentioned in the Sentinel questionnaire that Rage was not designed with single target damage in mind, but for Juggernauts the distinctions between our dps specs aren't as clear. Many feel the reason is to do with how reliant Vengeance is on Ravage, and how unreliable Ravage can be whether its due to rampage not proc'ing, or not having the opportunity to get off a full Ravage channel. The latter being a pressing issue in PvP, due to how much of our damage is factored into the assumption that we can get off full Ravage channels (which is an unrealistic assumption in a PvP environment).

 

Would the combat team consider making some changes to ensure Vengeance can more easily deal reliable and consistent single target damage in PvE and PvP?

 

**For emphasis, we don't necessarily mean buffs to dps (although that would be nice too, see PvE question), but rather, being able to deal our top potential damage more easily in PvP (dependence on ravage channel) and more regularly in PvE (rampage proc rate).

 

Not bad Marb.

 

I think I should point out Marauders do get a hard cc, though its for droids only.

 

I also think you can take out this line "It was mentioned in the Sentinel questionnaire that Rage was not designed with single target damage in mind, but for Juggernauts the distinctions between our dps specs aren't as clear. " It just lengthens the question and I don't think it really adds much to what were are trying to say.

Edited August 24, 2013 by ArenCordial

[Marb]

Yep, I am still not happy with their length, and I am having difficulty ordering the different ideas without muddying the question. The Veng question in particular is very difficult to focus on, as the issues are to do with ravage in one form or another, but in different ways. I'm concerned they will just choose one of those topics to rattle on about.

 

I'm also not happy with the PvE question as it is, but it would be good to get a clear answer on where Bioware consider non-marauder/sniper dps to fit in as far as balancing. They have said in the past that there is no hybrid tax, but the answers to the sorc questions implied that there is some unique balancing involved when the class has access to healing (and I would wonder if that extends to classes with taunts).

[ArenCordial]

I'm also not happy with the PvE question as it is, but it would be good to get a clear answer on where Bioware consider non-marauder/sniper dps to fit in as far as balancing. They have said in the past that there is no hybrid tax, but the answers to the sorc questions implied that there is some unique balancing involved when the class has access to healing (and I would wonder if that extends to classes with taunts).

 

Yeah, I don't think they want to come out and say it, because that basically means 6/8 classes are second string dps classes. Still I think we should ask them, because even though they aren't saying it the numbers still favor the single-role classes quite well before you add in their utility.

[Luckygunslinger]

All and all, we're touching over the same points continuously and no one has really spoken out against Enraged Defense, Rampage/Vengeance tweaking and raid utility. At the present moment, it seems like we should just buckle down and get the questions phrased as we want them, going back and forth continuously will just waste time. So, can we simply just put it to a vote now of who's phrased questions we want to really put forward?

[arkitip]

Someone posted this in the marauder thread, and it's a nice summation of what my feelings are. The best answers so far (Sentinels) were because the questions were about intent and were not asking for fixes.

[ssfish]

My thoughts on wording of the PvE question:

 

Outside of an armor debuff, which can be applied by multiple other classes/role assignments, Juggernaut DPS has very limited group utility. Off-tanking or emergency tanking is not encouraged by any mechanics at end-game, and is not practical without sacrificing competency in our primary role as damage dealers. With the current state of affairs with regards to class balance, a group would be better served bringing a Juggernaut tank, a Sniper, or a Mercenary for their armor debuff, due to other benefits provided by those classes/roles in addition to the armor debuff. This leaves Juggernaut DPS players without something that they can offer a group as far as utility abilities are concerned. Further, Juggernaut DPS is woefully lacking with the exception of one specific spec in one specific fight in the current tier of content.

 

Is it intended that Juggernauts' damage output and group utility while using either of the DPS trees be sub-par due to the fact that we have the option of fulfilling the tank role?

 

I think I kept the intent of what you were driving at while also specifying it towards our class.

Edited August 25, 2013 by ssfish

[ArenCordial]

Someone posted this in the marauder thread, and it's a nice summation of what my feelings are. The best answers so far (Sentinels) were because the questions were about intent and were not asking for fixes.

 

I dunno the Sniper community flat-out said they thought Lazed Target sucked and now the devs are giving them another option to consider. We'll see.

 

 

My thoughts on wording of the PvE question:

 

Outside of an armor debuff, which can be applied by multiple other classes/role assignments, Juggernaut DPS has very limited group utility. Off-tanking or emergency tanking is not encouraged by any mechanics at end-game, and is not practical without sacrificing competency in our primary role as damage dealers. With the current state of affairs with regards to class balance, a group would be better served bringing a Juggernaut tank, a Sniper, or a Mercenary for their armor debuff, due to other benefits provided by those classes/roles in addition to the armor debuff. This leaves Juggernaut DPS players without something that they can offer a group as far as utility abilities are concerned. Further, Juggernaut DPS is woefully lacking with the exception of one specific spec in one specific fight in the current tier of content.

 

Is it intended that Juggernauts' damage output and group utility while using either of the DPS trees be sub-par due to the fact that we have the option of fulfilling the tank role?

 

I think I kept the intent of what you were driving at while also specifying it towards our class.

 

You cleaned that up nicely. I almost feel like we should mention how few raids want another melee over a ranged given the headaches melee can sometimes bring, course that may just make the question more complex. I'm of two minds on it.

Edited August 25, 2013 by ArenCordial

[ssfish]

You cleaned that up nicely. I almost feel like we should mention how few raid want another melee over a ranged given the headaches melee can sometimes bring, course that may just make the question more complex. I'm of two minds on it.

 

My original draft touched upon that a bit more when touching on Snipers and Mercs for armor debuff, but I decided to condense it to the line "...due to other benefits provided by those classes/roles in addition to the armor debuff." It shouldn't need to be spelled out what those other benefits are, but of course, it easily could be expounded upon at greater length.

[EnalisNailo]

My thoughts on wording of the PvE question:

 

Outside of an armor debuff, which can be applied by multiple other classes/role assignments, Juggernaut DPS has very limited group utility. Off-tanking or emergency tanking is not encouraged by any mechanics at end-game, and is not practical without sacrificing competency in our primary role as damage dealers. With the current state of affairs with regards to class balance, a group would be better served bringing a Juggernaut tank, a Sniper, or a Mercenary for their armor debuff, due to other benefits provided by those classes/roles in addition to the armor debuff. This leaves Juggernaut DPS players without something that they can offer a group as far as utility abilities are concerned. Further, Juggernaut DPS is woefully lacking with the exception of one specific spec in one specific fight in the current tier of content.

 

Is it intended that Juggernauts' damage output and group utility while using either of the DPS trees be sub-par due to the fact that we have the option of fulfilling the tank role?

 

I think I kept the intent of what you were driving at while also specifying it towards our class.

 

This...I like this.

 

 

______________________________________

 

 

PvP) Enraged Defense is a strange ability, as it is a defensive cooldown that costs resources to use. The healing and threat reduction comes with a rage cost that's potentially so severe, that it leaves Juggernauts in a position where they have to sacrifice their dps in order to incrementally heal and lower threat over time while being attacked.

 

On the plus side, Enraged Defense is designed to work while under the effects of a hard CC (like a stun) and Vengeance can spec into Deafening Defense to give it 15% damage reduction while active. However, it is still dubious to use as a defensive cooldown for non-Vengeance Juggernauts and unreasonably expensive for both dps specs to use as a threat drop.

 

Would the team consider removing the rage cost and rage consumption effect from Enraged Defense? Additionally, would improving the ability for other Juggernaut specs outside of Vengeance be something to consider as well?

 

______________________________________

 

 

 

This too

 

Let me try my hand at a Vengeance question again and see if I can keep it from going on to like 6-7 pages like my last one ><.

 

In the past it has been made clear that Vengeance is a single target damage dealer. Drawing roughly half of its damage from DoTs and Ravage. Largely dependent on its Rampage talent, a 30% chance to reset Ravage and grant three rage after using Impale (9-Second CD) and Shatter (12-Second CD). We see drastic damage variation between players of similar skill and gear, largely in part due to luck, as much as 400DPS at times. It has gotten to the point that groups are opting to take the AoE damage spec over Vengeance, largely in part that their damage is consistent while also maintaining mobility. This reliance on Ravage/Rampage has also made PVPing as a Vengeance Juggernaut incredibly difficult, as it is very rare that an opponent will sit through the entirity of a Ravage channel. Coupled with being the only spec in the game without any sort of offensive CD, Vengeance feels lacking.

 

Would the Combat team be willing to look at possible way to make Vengeance/Vigilance cable of more reliably reaching their optimal numbers? Could we possibly see a talent similar to that of the Carnage Marauder that would allow Ravage to snare its target for the PvP Vengeance players? Is the lack of an offensive CD for Vengeance an intentional oversight?

[wadecounty]

I love Marb's questions.

 

Personally, I think all Vengeance needs is to have the proc rate upped for Rampage, like Marb pointed out it wouldn't raise our DPS potential (meaning we wouldn't become overpowered), but it would make it far more reliable.

 

I'd like to see 60% on Shatter and 45% on Impale, I don't think it would overpower the spec but it would really clean up the rotation as you'd very rarely go the entire Ravage cooldown without getting a proc anymore. Also, based on the change to Lightning Sorc in 2.0 with Chain Lightning's proc (which is 60% on Lightning Strike and Thundering Blast now), I don't think that's an unreasonable change.

[ArenCordial]

Delete Edited August 25, 2013 by ArenCordial

[EnalisNailo]

I love Marb's questions.

 

Personally, I think all Vengeance needs is to have the proc rate upped for Rampage, like Marb pointed out it wouldn't raise our DPS potential (meaning we wouldn't become overpowered), but it would make it far more reliable.

 

I'd like to see 60% on Shatter and 45% on Impale, I don't think it would overpower the spec but it would really clean up the rotation as you'd very rarely go the entire Ravage cooldown without getting a proc anymore. Also, based on the change to Lightning Sorc in 2.0 with Chain Lightning's proc (which is 60% on Lightning Strike and Thundering Blast now), I don't think that's an unreasonable change.

 

Not to mention those are the same prov valuse for pyrotechs for railshot.

[wadecounty]

Not to mention those are the same prov valuse for pyrotechs for railshot.

 

Exactly, and the 60% proc chance on Pyrotech is on a skill with only 9 sec cd (compared to Shatter's 12 sec), while the 45% chance comes on a spammable skill in Flame Burst, same idea with sorcs, except they get a 60% chance on a spammable skill (although it does have a cast time).

[idnewton]

All and all, we're touching over the same points continuously and no one has really spoken out against Enraged Defense

 

You touched on this a little bit in the PvP question, but not in the right way, I don't believe. Enraged defense is awful. In PvP it's probably somewhat useful, but in PvE it's devastating. If you have any kind of DoT on you, you're done. Pop it, and it'll keep sucking your rage away from you no matter what you do. I'd be better off to just stop dpsing entirely! I'm really getting tired of pulling aggro and tanks asking me why I didn't use my aggro drop, and me having to explain each time just how stupid the ability really is.

 

I'd prefer it to be redesigned just like the sniper's or sorcerer's. Just a simple ability that drops threat, nothing more. That, or keep the effect and take out the rage cost. Maybe keep the initial one, but definitely do away with the extra rage it's taking away from players when they take damage. If a dps has aggro, there should never be a reason to not use their aggro drop. For Juggernauts, there is. Fix it.

 

Agreed, nobody's focused on Enraged Defense.

 

Fact is that a good amount of the posts in this thread are actually related to it...

[wadecounty]

I think its fairly simple to see where they went wrong with Enraged Defense. When it was first introduced back in 1.2, at the time, 2 of the Juggernaut issues were a total lack of a threat drop, and survivability in Vengeance spec in PvP.

 

Unfortunately, rather than address both issues separately, the fix was to combine the two issues, hence the clunky implementation of Enraged Defense. Everything about it other than the threat drop screams that it was meant to go to Vengeance spec for added survivability, to make it the in between spec between Immortal and Rage when in PvP, from the heals costing Rage (a sacrifice one would actually make in PvP at times) to the ability to activate it while stunned, to the 4 Rage cost to activate (which has amazing synergy with the Unyielding talent considering it can be activated while stunned), to the talent that adds DR to it in the Vengeance tree (a threat drop that raises DR is kind of nonsensical in PvE).

Edited August 25, 2013 by wadecounty

[lMarlfoxl]

I am going to be posting the questions I have in mind tonight and pretty much have the PvP question complete. But with regards to the PvE question I am thinking about using Marb's question or Uncle Ost's. I would like the community to help with deciding which question would be better or if any alterations are needed before I post it.

[ssfish]

I am going to be posting the questions I have in mind tonight and pretty much have the PvP question complete. But with regards to the PvE question I am thinking about using Marb's question or Uncle Ost's. I would like the community to help with deciding which question would be better or if any alterations are needed before I post it.

 

I provided my amended vision of Marb's PvE question already. I think it is more to the point while still encompassing his primary points.