HELP JUGG Tanks are under attack!!!

[Fallen_Dragon]

To the community and our class rep specific I've seen a lot about PVP and DPS Juggs but I've not seen much regarding what will be done for the tanking side of things. I think that for the most part people on the forums tend to be either of these two but right now in the tanking forum Kitru and the shadow/assassin crew are trying to get us NERFED big time which will undoubtedly affect both DPS and PVP profoundly just like when rage spec got slammed so I am asking not to be forgotten and get these guys off of us.

[UncleOst]

To the community and our class rep specific I've seen a lot about PVP and DPS Juggs but I've not seen much regarding what will be done for the tanking side of things. I think that for the most part people on the forums tend to be either of these two but right now in the tanking forum Kitru and the shadow/assassin crew are trying to get us NERFED big time which will undoubtedly affect both DPS and PVP profoundly just like when rage spec got slammed so I am asking not to be forgotten and get these guys off of us.

 

Kitru is a guy( wait he's a girl I think ), that substitutes google and wiki for knowledge. I tell you good jug brutha, that you shan't worry..for the shadow/sin horde, haven't the skill or ingenuity to grasp the basics of their class, and in the second, lack the brainpower to formulate their own solutions for their own problems.

 

Relax jug brutha, they haven't the nature for war. They would rather type tedium and mash buttons than fight!

[Marb]

Maybe its because.. Jugg tanks *are* overpowered. Anyone who thinks otherwise has a very one dimensional view on tank balance.

 

 

• Force Shroud
  
• Stable damage profile
  
• Vanguard levels of damage reduction
  
• The two best tank cool-downs in the game on comparatively short cool-downs for their potency
  

 

It has nothing to do with shadows, but it certainly doesn't help their case at all crying out for nerfs, because that still wouldn't fix their own issues. I think you are referring to Leafy, he is being a bit dramatic.

Edited August 12, 2013 by Marb

[MarkXXIV]

Maybe its because.. Jugg tanks *are* overpowered. Anyone who thinks otherwise has a very one dimensional view on tank balance.

 

 

• Force Shroud
  
• Stable damage profile
  
• Vanguard levels of damage reduction
  
• The two best tank cool-downs in the game on comparatively short cool-downs for their potency
  

 

It has nothing to do with shadows, but it certainly doesn't help their case at all crying out for nerfs, because that still wouldn't fix their own issues. I think you are referring to Leafy, he is being a bit dramatic.

 

Jugg tank are good but considering we have rage, sniper, and operative healers running around, I don't think they are op. Healers make them op.

[TridusSWTOR]

It's funny how assassin tanks can't provide a logical reason how nerfing juggs, helps them not get blown up by thrasher.

 

Never seen so much sense of entitlement by some of these shadow tanks, it's pathetic really.

[Gnimish]

Its not about being able to help them not being expoleded on thrasher. Its about class balance. As there are pages upon pages about how tanks are unbalanced its not cause shadows are crying. Its true. Guardians are the best at everything. No tank has a niche anymore like they did pre 2.0 cause a jugg is as smooth as a vanguard with the cool downs of a shadow. If Guardians is where Bioware wants their tanks to be then they need to bring shadows and vanguards up to their level. Give vanguards a force shroud, give shadows another 15% dr. So they are all on even playing ground. If you think that vanguards and shadows dont need those then you are admiting that guardians are overpowered. And they need to bring guardians back down. Nobody is asking for a nerf bat just tweaks make them more spikey. Increse their cd's. then you say well shadows have short cd's thats cause they need them to stay alive. I watched my guildy guardian tank kelsara the whole fight to 42 stacks without using a cd. Think a shadow could do that? Bioware needs to address this either by buffing or nerfing the tanks are not balanced. Sorry im on my phone

 

 

Ps i dont want my shadow to have a extra 15% dr. That would be to much

[Vaidinah]

Maybe its because.. Jugg tanks *are* overpowered. Anyone who thinks otherwise has a very one dimensional view on tank balance.

 

 

• Force Shroud
  
• Stable damage profile
  
• Vanguard levels of damage reduction
  
• The two best tank cool-downs in the game on comparatively short cool-downs for their potency
  

 

It has nothing to do with shadows, but it certainly doesn't help their case at all crying out for nerfs, because that still wouldn't fix their own issues. I think you are referring to Leafy, he is being a bit dramatic.

 

That list is terrible at attempting to show that Jugg tanks are overpowered. I can come up with a much better one for why Assassins are OP even though they aren't. Jugg tanks aren't overpowered in the least and people who think so are clueless. Not a single one of them have ever come up with a decent argument as to why they believe what they do and they never will. People are just gullible to buy into the propaganda others spew on the forums on a regular basis.

[Marb]

That list is terrible at attempting to show that Jugg tanks are overpowered. I can come up with a much better one for why Assassins are OP even though they aren't. Jugg tanks aren't overpowered in the least and people who think so are clueless. Not a single one of them have ever come up with a decent argument as to why they believe what they do and they never will. People are just gullible to buy into the propaganda others spew on the forums on a regular basis.

 

By all means, enlighten me. Please explain to me how assassin tanks are overpowered in PvE.

 

What do assassins or vanguards have in their tanking suite that Juggernauts don't have?

Edited August 12, 2013 by Marb

[Vaidinah]

By all means, enlighten me. Please explain to me how assassin tanks are overpowered in PvE.

 

What do assassins or vanguards have in their tanking suite that Juggernauts don't have?

 

I'm not going to discuss Vanguards/Powertechs because I play the class very little and unlike most people, I can admit my ignorance when it comes to subjects I don't know. For Assassins, here's a nice list of their unique advantages that affect PvE tanking. Of course, I don't actually think they are OP, but here we go, anyways.

 

1) Require the least amount of external healing due to their abundance of self-healing.

2) Phase Walk makes more healers more productive by giving them a 5% boost to heals to *any* other player while they are inside. Can be maintained most of the time.

3) Assassins gain 2% more healing in general due to Shadow Shelter.

4) The ability to stealth res, which allows their team to win fights that no other tank would have in the same situation.

5) The ability to reset medpacs through stealth, effectively giving them an extra defensive cooldown of 10% or more heal every 2 minutes, depending on the strength of the medpac.

6) Most of their rotation works up to 10 meters, allowing them to tank and do decent damage at mid-range (great for S & V, Dread Guard, and Kephess the Undying sub-10%).

7) Have both a permanent accuracy and damage debuff.

8) Excellent defensive skills in general while having low cooldowns.

 

These are the most important points, but there are many others I haven't mentioned because they aren't that significant for Operation boss tanking. Abilities like stealth cc and a pull make many other aspects of the game much easier and convenient.

 

Points 1-3 alone are significant alone, but together, they add up to a huge boon for the healing efficiency for the team. 4-5 showcase the strength of stealth which when used correctly, is an amazing tool for good Shadows/Assassins. 6 makes life so much easier as a tank compared to being a Juggernaught, especially during the aforementioned fights.

 

7 means Assassins go well with every other tank, including another Assassin, and are especially good for multi-fights where the tanks are split or if the co-tank dies as they can apply both debuffs by themselves. 8 is important as Force Shroud effectively has a 45-50 sec cooldown while being roughly as good defensively as Saber Reflect and they have effectively three 2 minute cooldowns (Deflection, Overcharge Saber, and medpac) as well. Juggernaughts have stronger overall cooldowns, but are on significantly longer timers.

Edited August 12, 2013 by Vaidinah

[Gnimish]

 

1) Require the least amount of external healing due to their abundance of self-healing.

2) Phase Walk makes more healers more productive by giving them a 5% boost to heals to *any* other player while they are inside. Can be maintained most of the time.

3) Assassins gain 2% more healing in general due to Shadow Shelter.

4) The ability to stealth res, which allows their team to win fights that no other tank would have in the same situation.

5) The ability to reset medpacs through stealth, effectively giving them an extra defensive cooldown of 10% or more heal every 2 minutes, depending on the strength of the medpac.

6) Most of their rotation works up to 10 meters, allowing them to tank and do decent damage at mid-range (great for S & V, Dread Guard, and Kephess the Undying sub-10%).

7) Have both a permanent accuracy and damage debuff.

8) Excellent defensive skills in general while having low cooldowns.

 

They do have awesome self healig but self healing is reactive, you have to be alive to be able to use it. Self healing will not save you against Thrasher blowing you up in 1-2 seconds. On paper it sounds great and over powered but in practice shadows require more attention from healers than either class.

 

2 and 3 are the same. Phase walk can be great on spank and tanks and i will usually begin a fight with it. But alot of the time you move the boss to far away and i almost never have time to recast it. If they upped the time on it. It might be better but then it would probably be to much for pvp. So at best it situational and would by no means consider it OP.

 

Stealth rez. Its great. If you can get away from tanking and on some fights you can but i would honestly rate the amou t of times it has actually worked at less than 10% res has wqy to long of a channel. Its so rare to be able to use that i would not use this as a example as to why shadows are op at all

[TridusSWTOR]

As there are pages upon pages about how tanks are unbalanced its not cause shadows are crying

 

They are the ones crying. The reason why it's labeled as crying because compared to juggs how long did they wait? Oh wait, juggs never had any problems pre 2.0 according to shadows...of course

 

No tank has a niche anymore like they did pre 2.0

 

If you thought vanguards and juggs even came close to overall performance and utility, then you are fooling yourself.

 

If Guardians is where Bioware wants their tanks to be then they need to bring shadows and vanguards up to their level.

 

So shadows want to be brought up to a guardians level AND bring guardians down as well. You can't scream entitlement enough.

If you think that vanguards and shadows dont need those then you are admiting that guardians are overpowered.

 

I am actually in support of giving assassin/powertechs a buff. Don't try to label me as saying any different.

 

Nobody is asking for a nerf bat just tweaks make them more spikey. Increse their cd's

 

This is where the truth pretty much has to come out. It either goes two ways, the shadow community is naturally ignorant of how this game handled nerfs or they are trying to sell the juggernaut community on a lie. Pretty sure it's a mix of the two.

 

Basically what I'm saying is, more often than not, Bioware doesn't offer "tweaks" when they change classes. You either become broken or respectable enough to do what you were meant to do in the game. That my friend, is the truth.

 

That's my thoughts.

[MasterGladius]

You still haven't explained the limitations and struggles of the Juggernaut that validates your insistence that they are not stronger than the other tanks.

 

I have tanks of every flavor, and my guardian and Juggernaut (I have at least one of each) are way easier to keep up their HP than the tank equivalent. The healers in my guild agree. They have had a Shadow tank in their progression raid since forever, and she is no longer allowed to Main Tank. They only keep her at all out of loyalty to the player.

 

It is also interesting to note that the Shadows aren't even generally talking about an outright buff to the tanking tree. What they want is less spikiness. Part of the solution to that is actually to nerf our self heals so that our average mitigation remains practically unchanged.

 

I will concede that there is a lot of bitterness specifically to the Saber Reflect/Force Shroud parallel. Saber Reflect seems to be better in absolutely every way (save for the cleanse effect which doesn't actually cleanse everything as advertised), where Shroud actually fails to work at all 5% of the time. They have equal cooldowns. They are not fairly balanced. If the devs 'fixed' Shroud to actually apply 100% of the time, a lot of this would die out, but they have indicated that (incomprehensibly) this is working as intended.

 

PS: I agree with you that the devs don't seem to know how to balance classes. They cannot grasp the concept of tweaking a class, instead preferring to reinvent the classes almost entirely from time to time.

[Gnimish]

They are the ones crying. The reason why it's labeled as crying because compared to juggs how long did they wait? Oh wait, juggs never had any problems pre 2.0 according to shadows...of course

 

 

 

If you thought vanguards and juggs even came close to overall performance and utility, then you are fooling yourself.

 

 

 

So shadows want to be brought up to a guardians level AND bring guardians down as well. You can't scream entitlement enough.

 

 

I am actually in support of giving assassin/powertechs a buff. Don't try to label me as saying any different.

 

 

 

This is where the truth pretty much has to come out. It either goes two ways, the shadow community is naturally ignorant of how this game handled nerfs or they are trying to sell the juggernaut community on a lie. Pretty sure it's a mix of the two.

 

Basically what I'm saying is, more often than not, Bioware doesn't offer "tweaks" when they change classes. You either become broken or respectable enough to do what you were meant to do in the game. That my friend, is the truth.

 

That's my thoughts.

 

I don't think anyone ever said juggs didn't have any issues pre 2.0 everyone agrees they had threat issues that needed adressed. With that you never saw anyone say o we don't want a jugg. My guild always ran a guardian. The a vanguard or shadow, sometimes 2 guardians it didnt matter you took the player not the class.

 

I said shadows vanguards need to be brought up to guardians level, OR guardians needs to be brought down. Do not skew my words. Thats balancing. They need to decide where they want their tanks. If they tested with anything other than guardians this wouldn't even be a issue. Every new content is tested and designed to challenge guardians, if they tested it with a shadow also they would know unbalanced its become. Its not even guardians are overpowered its the content built around guardians.

[TridusSWTOR]

You still haven't explained the limitations and struggles of the Juggernaut that validates your insistence that they are not stronger than the other tanks.

 

PS: I agree with you that the devs don't seem to know how to balance classes. They cannot grasp the concept of tweaking a class, instead preferring to reinvent the classes almost entirely from time to time.

 

That's the thing, as of right now juggs are fine. I always been a supporter for buffing sins/PT tanks but not at the expense of another class.

 

So, just because I like where juggs are now, that means they need to be brought down?

 

The thing that confuses myself and probably many others is- How does nerfing juggs help assassin tanks?

Just take that sentence and go with it. Don't try to add in buffs to assassin tanks, since we are talking about the context of that question. That's the problem I am having and why I label a lot of shadows on the forums entitled.

[TridusSWTOR]

I don't think anyone ever said juggs didn't have any issues pre 2.0 everyone agrees they had threat issues that needed adressed. With that you never saw anyone say o we don't want a jugg. My guild always ran a guardian. The a vanguard or shadow, sometimes 2 guardians it didnt matter you took the player not the class.

 

I said shadows vanguards need to be brought up to guardians level, OR guardians needs to be brought down. Do not skew my words. Thats balancing. They need to decide where they want their tanks. If they tested with anything other than guardians this wouldn't even be a issue. Every new content is tested and designed to challenge guardians, if they tested it with a shadow also they would know unbalanced its become. Its not even guardians are overpowered its the content built around guardians.

 

Actually, quite a few shadows claim that pre 2.0 jugg problems weren't really that "major" according to them. You seem like a reasonable person, so I won't put you in that group but you have to understand, when I'm referring to shadow defenders, I will include the worst of the bunch.

 

I agree with the idea that assassins and powertechs need to be brought up. Since if you bring down guardians, well now you are still going to be stuck in a bad situation, only with less options to help your raid with. Glad to see you are reasonable but you have to understand where this "under attack" thing is coming from.

 

It's coming from shadow/sin tanks actively wanting nerfs to another class because- A) Entitlement B) Non-logical reasoning that doesn't address the real problem.

 

So far, yourself and the other poster I quoted are very reasonable people but you can look at the tone of quite a few shadows on the forums. So sorry if I lumped both of you into the worst bunch, but among the large amount of illogical children I have seen from the shadow community, one can safely assume the worst.

[Asmok]

As for one who played from the begining on my jugg as tank and Dps screw the assassin they were stupid op with all there little craptastic skills they had . If a jugg tank is now on the same level and or more powerfull then it was like 6 months ago then good on us . And yes I have returned to the game in the past week and find my jugg almost the same as he was when i left a about 3 to 4 months ago and now seeing new things. I think the jugg is still fine.

 

I have no love for the filthy dress wearing big eared smelly nerf herding double toothpick weilding nancy boys,now leave or I shall insult you for a second time.

 

And by the way tanking is a a art form, not everyone can tank it takes time to be good at it , even if its a easy class to play or if it is not. there is more to tanking then just hitting buttons in a rotation .

[Gnimish]

As for one who played from the begining on my jugg as tank and Dps screw the assassin they were stupid op with all there little craptastic skills they had . If a jugg tank is now on the same level and or more powerfull then it was like 6 months ago then good on us . And yes I have returned to the game in the past week and find my jugg almost the same as he was when i left a about 3 to 4 months ago and now seeing new things. I think the jugg is still fine.

 

I have no love for the filthy dress wearing big eared smelly nerf herding double toothpick weilding nancy boys,now leave or I shall insult you for a second time.

 

And by the way tanking is a a art form, not everyone can tank it takes time to be good at it , even if its a easy class to play or if it is not. there is more to tanking then just hitting buttons in a rotation .

 

 

This whole post is just ignorant. And rude. Craptastic skills? What do you consider saber reflect? I love that you guys got saber reflect for aoe threat. You needed it. But why does a guardian need a cheese skill? And nowthey are changing attacks to where it only works for saber reflect and not resiliance? Whos gonna get hit more by huge grenade a guardian or shadow? A shadow yet guardians are able to take no damage from it. I always figured the only reason shadows got resiliance was to dodge attacks that had a high chance of one shotting shadows? Maybe i was wrong. But i do not see the need for a guardian to be able to cheese mechanics. At most they might get hit for 60% of their health.

 

My thoughts

[Fallen_Dragon]

Thanks to everyone for reading this thread I was worried that I was alone and that if they got their way Kitru and crew would send us back to pre 2.0. Honestly for the first time in this game as a tank I feel that my Juggernaut is just that a Juggernaut. I personally was on the Shadow/Assassin's side when I first learned of their situation, especially since I had to deal with the problems pre 2.0. (And for those saying that it's not that big of a deal ask yourself how you feel when your Shadow/Assassin dies and you can do nothing to stop the boss from killing all or part of your team, that's what we dealt with.) I mean of any group the Juggernaut /Guardians would understand having the game mechanics work against you, however instead of being patient like we were for so long they attacked us, so I stopped empathizing with their situation and began to think they deserved it. That was my reaction is what happened after Leafy decided to attack us. So in the end I still hope the devs fix the spike problem and the PT/Vanguards get an ability to rival reflect or shroud but like it's been said how is bringing another class down going to help with your problems?

[Gnimish]

Thanks to everyone for reading this thread I was worried that I was alone and that if they got their way Kitru and crew would send us back to pre 2.0. Honestly for the first time in this game as a tank I feel that my Juggernaut is just that a Juggernaut. I personally was on the Shadow/Assassin's side when I first learned of their situation, especially since I had to deal with the problems pre 2.0. (And for those saying that it's not that big of a deal ask yourself how you feel when your Shadow/Assassin dies and you can do nothing to stop the boss from killing all or part of your team, that's what we dealt with.) I mean of any group the Juggernaut /Guardians would understand having the game mechanics work against you, however instead of being patient like we were for so long they attacked us, so I stopped empathizing with their situation and began to think they deserved it. That was my reaction is what happened after Leafy decided to attack us. So in the end I still hope the devs fix the spike problem and the PT/Vanguards get an ability to rival reflect or shroud but like it's been said how is bringing another class down going to help with your problems?

 

 

 

How can you type this with a straight face? Jugg had threat issues noone denys that. But to say that it is the same issue as shadows dropping dead due to Rng, is just plan wrong. All a good jug had to say was "hey derps! Give me 2-3 seconds before you go all out" bam problem solved.i know this cause are guild used a guardian to MT everything, probably only thing that didn't get clears was Dreadtooth 10 stacks. Im not trying to be little your past threat issues they were real. But hardly any reason to not take a guardian tank.

 

Shadows issue can not be compensated for besides simply not taking them, you can't say " all healers focus on tank whole fight he might die. Don't worry sbout dps they have medpacs" not gonna help you can still get bad RNG and take 42k damage in 1 gcd. Now thats not every fight is it game breaking no, you can still do hm and dm snd have fun, is it frustrating enough to make people reroll/unsub, for some it is.

 

 

More of my thoughts

[Marb]

I'm not going to discuss Vanguards/Powertechs because I play the class very little and unlike most people, I can admit my ignorance when it comes to subjects I don't know. For Assassins, here's a nice list of their unique advantages that affect PvE tanking. Of course, I don't actually think they are OP, but here we go, anyways.

 

1) Require the least amount of external healing due to their abundance of self-healing.

2) Phase Walk makes more healers more productive by giving them a 5% boost to heals to *any* other player while they are inside. Can be maintained most of the time.

3) Assassins gain 2% more healing in general due to Shadow Shelter.

4) The ability to stealth res, which allows their team to win fights that no other tank would have in the same situation.

5) The ability to reset medpacs through stealth, effectively giving them an extra defensive cooldown of 10% or more heal every 2 minutes, depending on the strength of the medpac.

6) Most of their rotation works up to 10 meters, allowing them to tank and do decent damage at mid-range (great for S & V, Dread Guard, and Kephess the Undying sub-10%).

7) Have both a permanent accuracy and damage debuff.

8) Excellent defensive skills in general while having low cooldowns.

 

These are the most important points, but there are many others I haven't mentioned because they aren't that significant for Operation boss tanking. Abilities like stealth cc and a pull make many other aspects of the game much easier and convenient.

 

Points 1-3 alone are significant alone, but together, they add up to a huge boon for the healing efficiency for the team. 4-5 showcase the strength of stealth which when used correctly, is an amazing tool for good Shadows/Assassins. 6 makes life so much easier as a tank compared to being a Juggernaught, especially during the aforementioned fights.

 

7 means Assassins go well with every other tank, including another Assassin, and are especially good for multi-fights where the tanks are split or if the co-tank dies as they can apply both debuffs by themselves. 8 is important as Force Shroud effectively has a 45-50 sec cooldown while being roughly as good defensively as Saber Reflect and they have effectively three 2 minute cooldowns (Deflection, Overcharge Saber, and medpac) as well. Juggernaughts have stronger overall cooldowns, but are on significantly longer timers.

 

I appreciate the time you took to write this out for me, but did you know that juggs have force shroud too? and they don't get 2 shot.

 

If saber reflect only worked on melee and ranged, and sins didn't have the rng death issues, I would be happy to call it a day on tank balance and agree with you.

Edited August 13, 2013 by Marb

[MasterGladius]

Frankly, I couldn't care less about nerfing Juggernauts. What I do care about is equal opportunity tanking. Paradoxically, Shadows/Assassins continue to have the highest AVERAGE mitigation profile, but the spikiness sort of invalidates that, for a lot of reasons that have been discussed at length.

 

The only ability I can think of in the Juggernaut profile that I honestly think is overpowered is Saber Reflect, and even then if everybody had one that worked equally well, I'll be quiet and go home. It's all about giving every class the same opportunity, and right now Shadows can get one shotted from 80% by some attacks, and even barring that, a lot of healers just hate them. The spikiness is just too stressful.

[Sith-Viscera]

If they nerf one more thing from Juggs, i'm done! last guy's post said something about nerfing Saber reflect, oh a whole 3 seconds of reflection while blasters and cannons blasts at us, like, what every half second? While our CDs is 10 12 15 30 seconds or 1 or 2 to 3 minutes at a time depending what disciplined one uses before you can use again, meanwhile those blasts that are coming every 0.3 seconds tear us down before a cool down of ours completes. Screw that we should be able to use reflection as fast as a blaster or cannon can fire at us. Its Ridiculous, this is even being discussed!

[Vaidinah]

They do have awesome self healig but self healing is reactive, you have to be alive to be able to use it. Self healing will not save you against Thrasher blowing you up in 1-2 seconds. On paper it sounds great and over powered but in practice shadows require more attention from healers than either class.

 

2 and 3 are the same. Phase walk can be great on spank and tanks and i will usually begin a fight with it. But alot of the time you move the boss to far away and i almost never have time to recast it. If they upped the time on it. It might be better but then it would probably be to much for pvp. So at best it situational and would by no means consider it OP.

 

Stealth rez. Its great. If you can get away from tanking and on some fights you can but i would honestly rate the amou t of times it has actually worked at less than 10% res has wqy to long of a channel. Its so rare to be able to use that i would not use this as a example as to why shadows are op at all

 

I'm not saying any of these advantages are actually OP. I'm just arguing for the sake of discussion that Assassins have a great deal of advantages that many people do not consider when they claim they are underpowered. As for stealth res, my success rate with it is about 75%. You really have to know the fights to when the best time to use it is and most people I've seen don't even try. You just have to realize that you have to move to the position before you even go stealth in the first place, you can't take any damage, you can't be healed (click off any HoTs on you as well), you can't have any HoTs/DoTs out (not a problem for a tank Assassin as we have none), and then you have to do it at the right times.

 

There are times in almost every fight (Thrasher is the only one I've never successfully done it in) you are able to stealth res. I made a list in another thread that got deleted because people couldn't control themselves so I don't want to do that again, but just remember the above points and you'll find the right times.

[Vaidinah]

I appreciate the time you took to write this out for me, but did you know that juggs have force shroud too? and they don't get 2 shot.

 

If saber reflect only worked on melee and ranged, and sins didn't have the rng death issues, I would be happy to call it a day on tank balance and agree with you.

 

If Saber Reflect worked only on melee and ranged, it would be partially taking the place of Saber Ward and that's an area where Juggernaughts don't need a buff. It would make Saber Reflect much easier to use well, but boring.

 

As for RNG death issues, this is vastly overstated. I've seen every class of tank die from a high damage spike if they aren't kept up to near full health at the wrong time; Assassins are just more prone to it due to their reliance on their excellent mitigation and high self-healing. It's a risk you take while playing a Shadow/Assassin and I'd rather Bioware not homogenize all the tanks just because some Shadows can't be bothered to read their combat logs and use their defensive cooldowns appropriately. I definitely prefer each tank to have their own distinct flavor and people's suggestions are trying to push Bioware to do the opposite.

 

I only wish they'd fix Force Shroud to work 100% of the time because no one likes unreliable skills. I don't know why they ended up having the skill be able to fail like that, but to me, it's the highest priority for Shadow/Assassin tanks.

Edited August 13, 2013 by Vaidinah

[Fallen_Dragon]

How can you type this with a straight face? Jugg had threat issues noone denys that. But to say that it is the same issue as shadows dropping dead due to Rng, is just plan wrong. All a good jug had to say was "hey derps! Give me 2-3 seconds before you go all out" bam problem solved.i know this cause are guild used a guardian to MT everything, probably only thing that didn't get clears was Dreadtooth 10 stacks. Im not trying to be little your past threat issues they were real. But hardly any reason to not take a guardian tank.

 

Shadows issue can not be compensated for besides simply not taking them, you can't say " all healers focus on tank whole fight he might die. Don't worry sbout dps they have medpacs" not gonna help you can still get bad RNG and take 42k damage in 1 gcd. Now thats not every fight is it game breaking no, you can still do hm and dm snd have fun, is it frustrating enough to make people reroll/unsub, for some it is.

 

 

More of my thoughts

 

I can do this with a straight face because pre 2.0 I did what every Juggernaught and Guardian did, I manned up and did what I could with what I had. I endured with a handicap. I had 4 DPS that pulled like crazy even after I had my 3 to 5 seconds head start, so I used my gear to hybrid out my ability to hold threat, I also tried the hybrid build as well for a time but it didn't work for me. In the end my team learned how to work with this. So I think it's time you and the rest of those like you (not the ones that are doing with what they have or are trying to get the spike issue dialed down through proper channels) need to suck it up. Because comments like the one you threw at me only prove Asmok correct.