Is it time to retire Classic Coms and bring the other raids in line with the top end?

[Icebergy]

My point is that it doesnt have to be either/or. they still can endeavor to strike a balance and do both over a developmental cycle.

 

No matter how you look at it, no matter how much time you think it does or does not take to rebalance new raids, the fact remains that it does take time to rebalance new raids, and that time takes away time that could be spent making new raids.

 

That is a very poor trade off.

 

Give us new stuff. The old stuff is always going to be there if you want to go run it.

Edited August 9, 2013 by Icebergy

[ZionHalcyon]

No matter how you look at it, no matter how much time you think it does or does not take to rebalance new raids, the fact remains that it does take time to rebalance new raids, and that time takes away time that could be spent making new raids.

 

That is a very poor trade off.

 

Give us new stuff. The old stuff is always going to be there if you want to go run it.

 

The problem is your naivete in thinking that they aren't already balancing making new content while consistantly balancing the game. And they've done a reshuffling before, so it isn't unprescedented.

[DarkDisturbed]

I would be glad to see the Nightmare versions of EV/KP/EC re balanced and drop a non set bonus/alternate set of Kell Dragon.

 

No SM/HM though.

[MillionsKNives]

No matter how you look at it, no matter how much time you think it does or does not take to rebalance new raids, the fact remains that it does take time to rebalance new raids, and that time takes away time that could be spent making new raids.

 

That is a very poor trade off.

 

Give us new stuff. The old stuff is always going to be there if you want to go run it.

 

That's a very black and white way of looking at a grey issue. Would you have been OK with only having one relevant operation when 2.0 hit? I wouldn't be. Only having S&V to do would have been a lot worse than having both TFB and S&V. Between TFB and the original 55 flashpoints they clearly feel that sometimes it's worth the trade off to update old content, and I would agree with that. I would like to see the old ops become at least partially relevant in the current state of things.

[Spatology]

Nope. Really, I see the merit in your arguement. This content should be relevant to 55. Ask yourself why though.

 

Bioware bumped TFB up and pushed S&V out to justify a cash grab on ROTHC. Now the problem arises where people realize the lack of real content in this "teir"?

 

It was lazy to just re balance TFB. Also, consider the fact that a returning player who subbed in the past and cleared TFB at lvl 50 can't even enter the instance now....hilarious. Honestly a big joke.

 

The reality is, NEW CONTENT OF ALL VARIETIES IS NEEDED ATM. Not just a new companion and a couple of flash points.....a REAL expansion.

[GatorAndy]

Why rebalance the current modes? IF they want to revisit the old Ops, they should not effect what gameplay is available for the level 50-54s. They should just add a new "level 55 Super Hard Nightmare" mode.

[ZionHalcyon]

That's a very black and white way of looking at a grey issue. Would you have been OK with only having one relevant operation when 2.0 hit? I wouldn't be. Only having S&V to do would have been a lot worse than having both TFB and S&V. Between TFB and the original 55 flashpoints they clearly feel that sometimes it's worth the trade off to update old content, and I would agree with that. I would like to see the old ops become at least partially relevant in the current state of things.

 

Exactly. Some upkeep is needed or else the game will end up decaying from within.

[hadoken]

Nope. Really, I see the merit in your arguement. This content should be relevant to 55. Ask yourself why though.

 

Bioware bumped TFB up and pushed S&V out to justify a cash grab on ROTHC. Now the problem arises where people realize the lack of real content in this "teir"?

 

It was lazy to just re balance TFB. Also, consider the fact that a returning player who subbed in the past and cleared TFB at lvl 50 can't even enter the instance now....hilarious. Honestly a big joke.

 

The reality is, NEW CONTENT OF ALL VARIETIES IS NEEDED ATM. Not just a new companion and a couple of flash points.....a REAL expansion.

 

Yea that's exactly right, all the level 55 flashpoints from the expac were retuned old crap. It's pretty clear the team can't work on new stuff and redo old stuff - the old stuff becomes 'hey it's new, be happy'.

[ZionHalcyon]

Why rebalance the current modes? IF they want to revisit the old Ops, they should not effect what gameplay is available for the level 50-54s. They should just add a new "level 55 Super Hard Nightmare" mode.

 

You are missing the point. Currently the current gameplay for 50-54 is a confused com grind for Classic Coms with a sparce smattering of basic coms, where before you can even land a full set of black hole/dread guard gear you already are at level 55 and moving on to artifact, arkanian and underworld gear. It really makes no sense from a gameplay position.

 

Instead, it makes a lot more sense for 50-54 be set up towards basic coms and artifact gear, with 55 being the target for arkanian and then underworld gear, as the artifact gear will at least be of use in 55 hard mode ops, and by then you should have a full set of artifact going in. Right now, classic coms are like an appendix in terms of tier progression: its there, but kind of pointless.

Edited August 9, 2013 by ZionHalcyon

[MillionsKNives]

Yea that's exactly right, all the level 55 flashpoints from the expac were retuned old crap. It's pretty clear the team can't work on new stuff and redo old stuff - the old stuff becomes 'hey it's new, be happy'.

 

Yeah it sucks, there wasn't a single new thing they added in RotHC. They didn't bring anything new to go along with their updates to old content. Makeb? Old stuff. S&V? Old stuff. Seeker/Macrobinocular? Old stuff. And if only they would have release SOME new stuff since.

[hadoken]

Yeah it sucks, there wasn't a single new thing they added in RotHC. They didn't bring anything new to go along with their updates to old content. Makeb? Old stuff. S&V? Old stuff. Seeker/Macrobinocular? Old stuff. And if only they would have release SOME new stuff since.

 

It's funny how you can quote something directly and still manage to take it out of context. Or did you not see "55 flashpoints" in there?

[ZionHalcyon]

Nope. Really, I see the merit in your arguement. This content should be relevant to 55. Ask yourself why though.

 

Bioware bumped TFB up and pushed S&V out to justify a cash grab on ROTHC. Now the problem arises where people realize the lack of real content in this "teir"?

 

It was lazy to just re balance TFB. Also, consider the fact that a returning player who subbed in the past and cleared TFB at lvl 50 can't even enter the instance now....hilarious. Honestly a big joke.

 

The reality is, NEW CONTENT OF ALL VARIETIES IS NEEDED ATM. Not just a new companion and a couple of flash points.....a REAL expansion.

 

As a raider, I can tell you I have NO PROBLEM with TFB and S&V and their place in things. Those are fine as they are - it sounds more like you do have some lingering bitterness towards bioware about RotHC and their business and marketing practices, which is a separate issue.

 

In terms of ops and raid progression - TFB and S&V are fine as they are - the issue is EV, KP, and EC getting pulled from the rotation and having no value to someone who is a geared level 55. My suggestion is to change that, as well as remove the classic com model, which really if you want to talk about appeasement, seems left in for those people who were LOUDLY complaining about the new raids making campaign and black hole gear irrelevant.

 

Going forward, a straight up Basic/Elite/Ultimate tier makes more sense, and as higher level raids become available, everything can be moved down a slot.

[ZionHalcyon]

Yeah it sucks, there wasn't a single new thing they added in RotHC. They didn't bring anything new to go along with their updates to old content. Makeb? Old stuff. S&V? Old stuff. Seeker/Macrobinocular? Old stuff. And if only they would have release SOME new stuff since.

 

people believe what they want to believe.

 

Since they already had hardmodes of some of their flashpoints, I thought it was a no brainer that eventually every flashpoint was going to have a hard mode. Yet this somehow upset people who think this was some clever ploy to disguise old content as new. I just saw it as a continuation of the development cycle.

 

Ah well, as they say, haters gonna hate.

[MillionsKNives]

It's funny how you can quote something directly and still manage to take it out of context. Or did you not see "55 flashpoints" in there?

 

I read it just fine. You used 55 flashpoints as evidence that they cannot make new and old content at the same time. That's cherry picking when you completely ignore all of the rest of the new content that they worked on at the same time.

[hadoken]

people believe what they want to believe.

 

Since they already had hardmodes of some of their flashpoints, I thought it was a no brainer that eventually every flashpoint was going to have a hard mode. Yet this somehow upset people who think this was some clever ploy to disguise old content as new. I just saw it as a continuation of the development cycle.

 

Ah well, as they say, haters gonna hate.

 

And there you have it. Upgrading old content for the current cap is just "continuation of the development cycle" to you.

 

I think I'm done here, good luck with your request.

[Heezdedjim]

It's a nice idea, but I don't perceive Bioware as willing to make grinding Basic comms as easy as it would become if you could get them through blitzing level 50 content nonstop.

[ZionHalcyon]

And there you have it. Upgrading old content for the current cap is just "continuation of the development cycle" to you.

 

I think I'm done here, good luck with your request.

 

And continuing the development cycle is some clever cash grab ploy to bilk people out of money to you.

 

I think you're right, but thanks for swinging by nonetheless.

[ZionHalcyon]

It's a nice idea, but I don't perceive Bioware as willing to make grinding Basic comms as easy as it would become if you could get them through blitzing level 50 content nonstop.

 

Consider that the Basic Com cap is the same as the classic com cap - 1000.

 

Right now, no way you can pull in that haul but with a cap that big, its worth considering they don't mind people raking in those coms as the purple 66 gear would be what gets people ready for level 55 HMs and Level 55 operations. Its not endgame gear by any stretch, but would allow an easier time of people transitioning to the paid/subscriber content.

[Heezdedjim]

Right now, no way you can pull in that haul but with a cap that big, its worth considering they don't mind people raking in those coms as the purple 66 gear would be what gets people ready for level 55 HMs and Level 55 operations. Its not endgame gear by any stretch, but would allow an easier time of people transitioning to the paid/subscriber content.

Actually the grinds for Classic AND Basic comms are both a complete waste. You can buy crafted blue rank 25 mods off the GTN for almost nothing and be better geared than you would be from the Black Hole trash that drops in the level 50 instances.

 

Even at 55, you can just buy purple rank 28 stuff (66 mods) for cheap and gear up to Basic level with zero effort. If you don't want to buy them, then you can craft it all in a relatively short time as well. It took me about a day and a half to gear each of my last two 55s in full rank 28 purple gear, and that includes farming all the purple mats and RE'ing all the patterns for the stuff. It would take weeks of doing the idiotic Basic grind to get fully geared (longer, in fact, since the stats on the comm gear are garbage compared to the crafted stuff and you'd have to grind even longer to swap out all the trash mods).

 

Considering how worthless the Basic gear is, it needs to take about 1/10th the effort it does now in order to make it remotely worth trying to get. But I don't see that happening any time soon, since Bioware seems unlikely to abandon their wildly overblown estimations of the value of "entry level" gear relative to the effort needed to get it.

[Spatology]

As a raider, I can tell you I have NO PROBLEM with TFB and S&V and their place in things. Those are fine as they are - it sounds more like you do have some lingering bitterness towards bioware about RotHC and their business and marketing practices, which is a separate issue.

 

In terms of ops and raid progression - TFB and S&V are fine as they are - the issue is EV, KP, and EC getting pulled from the rotation and having no value to someone who is a geared level 55. My suggestion is to change that, as well as remove the classic com model, which really if you want to talk about appeasement, seems left in for those people who were LOUDLY complaining about the new raids making campaign and black hole gear irrelevant.

 

Going forward, a straight up Basic/Elite/Ultimate tier makes more sense, and as higher level raids become available, everything can be moved down a slot.

 

My bitterness is palpable. Since bioware had content in rotation and bumped it up to make 55 feel more robust, it's gotten worse.

 

The progression isn't ok. FYI, the most demanding operation mechanics wise is in the 50 bracket. ( ie. Try HM EC in rakata mods without augments)

 

The solution to this problem isn't, "just recycle the old stuff". Bioware royally messed up this teir. Your proposed change is bogus and flat out insulting to people who have been doing this content for nearing two years now.

 

I realize there are new players who potentially miss out on the 50 teir of operations, yet, I ask again. Who is at fault for this?

 

Dumping the veterans back into old content for commendations or weeklies will not provide a fun playing environment for the veterans or the newbs. Newbs wanna learn and have fun. Veterans wanna get in and get out. Conflicting interest here.

 

I grant you, the current system sucks, but, only because of poor content implementation. You are trying to put a bandaid on a broken leg.

[ZionHalcyon]

My bitterness is palpable. Since bioware had content in rotation and bumped it up to make 55 feel more robust, it's gotten worse.

 

The progression isn't ok. FYI, the most demanding operation mechanics wise is in the 50 bracket. ( ie. Try HM EC in rakata mods without augments)

 

The solution to this problem isn't, "just recycle the old stuff". Bioware royally messed up this teir. Your proposed change is bogus and flat out insulting to people who have been doing this content for nearing two years now.

 

I realize there are new players who potentially miss out on the 50 teir of operations, yet, I ask again. Who is at fault for this?

 

Dumping the veterans back into old content for commendations or weeklies will not provide a fun playing environment for the veterans or the newbs. Newbs wanna learn and have fun. Veterans wanna get in and get out. Conflicting interest here.

 

I grant you, the current system sucks, but, only because of poor content implementation. You are trying to put a bandaid on a broken leg.

 

I disagree with your opinion, although respect your right to feel that way.

 

However...

 

I, nor anyone I have raided with has ever complained about the ops we run or how TFB and S&V fit in terms of tiers, only that we keep running the same 2 operations and how gearing for those ops is more painful than necessary. Most opt to skip classic coms entirely and start pounding the flashpoint hard modes at 55, but even that can be taxing when you do it over and over.

 

As it is, your "slap in the face" argument is one that isn't uncommon - I've heard it before, and it never really feels like it rings true. Some people think that just because they suffered to get the gear they got, everyone else must suffer too or else its a "slap in the face". Its the old "misery loves company" argument.

 

However, in practice that makes for poor business practices. I do think my idea is a fine idea, and I don't think it is slapping a baindaid on a broken leg, but actually fixing the system and leaving a footprint for going forward. However, it flies in the face of the "misery loves company" crowd which is why I think they won't like it at first, because it defies that mentality.

 

However, players will adjust, just as they did when the original rebalance happened and Rakata armors were put into armormech and synthweaving.

 

I guess in a nutshell, what I am saying is the system is broke now, and yes, my suggestion will fix it, but just because someone likes it to stay broken in such a way that it caters to the "misery loves company" crowd doesn't make that the right way to keep things going forward.

 

At least with my suggestion, as new levels of Ops open up, new tiers can replace old tiers, slot in the same slots (basic, elite, ultimate), old armor levels can become craftable as they are replaced, as can the armor skins, and this can be the process for what happens with the armor tiers going forward.

 

And then raiders will have the understanding that just because you achieved the pinnacle of gear doesn't entitle you to that forever - it just means that you get to have the top gear for a set amount of time until the next tier of armor arrives and the character levels increment again.

 

Once that understanding is set and concrete, then it will eventually become the norm and people will get used to it.

 

Its much healthier for the flow of the game that way.

Edited August 9, 2013 by ZionHalcyon

[ZionHalcyon]

Actually the grinds for Classic AND Basic comms are both a complete waste. You can buy crafted blue rank 25 mods off the GTN for almost nothing and be better geared than you would be from the Black Hole trash that drops in the level 50 instances.

 

Even at 55, you can just buy purple rank 28 stuff (66 mods) for cheap and gear up to Basic level with zero effort. If you don't want to buy them, then you can craft it all in a relatively short time as well. It took me about a day and a half to gear each of my last two 55s in full rank 28 purple gear, and that includes farming all the purple mats and RE'ing all the patterns for the stuff. It would take weeks of doing the idiotic Basic grind to get fully geared (longer, in fact, since the stats on the comm gear are garbage compared to the crafted stuff and you'd have to grind even longer to swap out all the trash mods).

 

Considering how worthless the Basic gear is, it needs to take about 1/10th the effort it does now in order to make it remotely worth trying to get. But I don't see that happening any time soon, since Bioware seems unlikely to abandon their wildly overblown estimations of the value of "entry level" gear relative to the effort needed to get it.

 

 

By making everything Basic coms at level 50, they become a lot less of a waste - the problem is basic coms at 55 IS a waste. by allowing people to earn them at 50, and moving level 66 gear to 50, you give more value to the basic coms.

[Spatology]

I disagree with your opinion, although respect your right to feel that way.

 

However...

 

I, nor anyone I have raided with has ever complained about the ops we run or how TFB and S&V fit in terms of tiers, only that we keep running the same 2 operations and how gearing for those ops is more painful than necessary. Most opt to skip classic coms entirely and start pounding the flashpoint hard modes at 55, but even that can be taxing when you do it over and over.

 

As it is, your "slap in the face" argument is one that isn't uncommon - I've heard it before, and it never really feels like it rings true. Some people think that just because they suffered to get the gear they got, everyone else must suffer too or else its a "slap in the face". Its the old "misery loves company" argument.

 

However, in practice that makes for poor business practices. I do think my idea is a fine idea, and I don't think it is slapping a baindaid on a broken leg, but actually fixing the system and leaving a footprint for going forward. However, it flies in the face of the "misery loves company" crowd which is why I think they won't like it at first, because it defies that mentality.

 

However, players will adjust, just as they did when the original rebalance happened and Rakata armors were put into armormech and synthweaving.

 

I guess in a nutshell, what I am saying is the system is broke now, and yes, my suggestion will fix it, but just because someone likes it to stay broken in such a way that it caters to the "misery loves company" crowd doesn't make that the right way to keep things going forward.

 

At least with my suggestion, as new levels of Ops open up, new tiers can replace old tiers, slot in the same slots (basic, elite, ultimate), old armor levels can become craftable as they are replaced, as can the armor skins, and this can be the process for what happens with the armor tiers going forward.

 

And then raiders will have the understanding that just because you achieved the pinnacle of gear doesn't entitle you to that forever - it just means that you get to have the top gear for a set amount of time until the next tier of armor arrives and the character levels increment again.

 

Once that understanding is set and concrete, then it will eventually become the norm and people will get used to it.

 

Its much healtheir for the flow of the game that way.

 

You completely ignored the fact that this first teir is a "learners" teir. Bioware made it clear that this teir was to introduce players to mechanics.

 

You are solely focused on your raiders troubles gearing. I'm objectively trying to see the situation from a newbs and veterans pov.

 

The flow of progression currently is fine. All SM operations at 55 are possible in 61 mods with no augments. In fact it's balanced for this entry level for this teir. If you wanted to skip straight to HM, raiders were doing it in 63's long ago.

 

You ignored two larger issues:

 

-FTP players will have no operations available to them to " try out " the great content bioware has to offer.

 

-Some players have done these operations to death. Expecting them to mingle with players who just wanna learn and have fun in these operations is unrealistic and won't promote a fun environment for either group of players. (Sorry this doesn't ring true for you, the sentiment and logic are sound.)

 

Your solution won't fix the smoothness of teir transitions. They will exist. Dumping a lower teir to give a minority of players an easier route to gear, that isn't needed for desired content, isn't a solution. Not to mention you throw FTP players under the bus just so it's easier for you to gear your characters.

[MillionsKNives]

F2P players can't access ANY operations without a pass. They're already left in the dust.

[ZionHalcyon]

You completely ignored the fact that this first teir is a "learners" teir. Bioware made it clear that this teir was to introduce players to mechanics.

 

You are solely focused on your raiders troubles gearing. I'm objectively trying to see the situation from a newbs and veterans pov.

 

The flow of progression currently is fine. All SM operations at 55 are possible in 61 mods with no augments. In fact it's balanced for this entry level for this teir. If you wanted to skip straight to HM, raiders were doing it in 63's long ago.

 

You ignored two larger issues:

 

-FTP players will have no operations available to them to " try out " the great content bioware has to offer.

 

-Some players have done these operations to death. Expecting them to mingle with players who just wanna learn and have fun in these operations is unrealistic and won't promote a fun environment for either group of players. (Sorry this doesn't ring true for you, the sentiment and logic are sound.)

 

Your solution won't fix the smoothness of teir transitions. They will exist. Dumping a lower teir to give a minority of players an easier route to gear, that isn't needed for desired content, isn't a solution. Not to mention you throw FTP players under the bus just so it's easier for you to gear your characters.

 

Hardly the case. How will my idea get rid of a "learner's tier"?

 

Really, back when the game came out, EV and KP were tough sledding, even for a "learner's tier" until people were able to gear up. With what I am suggesting, people would be in close to full purple 66s by the time they attempt anything harder than EV and KP Story Mode.

 

Really, it feels like you pulled that out of thin air as some sort of strawman counter argument. Whereas had you actually thoroughly read my idea, you'd understand that I am not just talking about the end game, but also the ease of getting there. My idea makes gearing up easier and makes operations more accessible, not less as you infer.