Selenial Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 "Anakin whiny mode." Sheesh, the hate never ends does it. Heh, what better way to put it? Don't get me wrong, it's not a crack at Hayden Christian, I actually think he was a good actor... More a crack at the terrible writing in the prequels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 Vader has handled large groups fairly easily. Be it soldiers of Jedi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 (edited) Force Crushing HK would be VERY difficult if this did come down to a fight in the core. There are many ledges around the core that HK could get up to, being hard for vader to spot, it would take a lot of effort to crush him if he was to find him, giving the others an opening... Cronal was skilled in Melee combat, though not exceptional, he was very proficient however in Sith Sorcery. Ok, lets put this simply... There's Anakin whiny mode, and Vader Rage mode. Anakin whiny mode is stuff like Mustafar, where he let his rage get control of his senses, making him leap to Kenobi and getting chopped in half. Vader rage is concentrated rage pushed into his foes... If she really wanted to, I'm sure she could force him into Anakin Whiny mode... Even if she couldn't, he can be overwhelmed. Fine then, Force throw something at him, crush a ledge that HK would leap too or rather just Force absorb his shots or put up a barrier. Cronal...I don't see him lasting 30 seconds in combat with Vader, as far as his sorcery is concerned it just seems to extend as enhancing objects, illusions and so forth none of which I really see helping him out aside from maybe the illusions but even then. Except there is no "Whiny" mode as you call it, for Vader. He is a completely different person, as for overwhelming him....ok overwhelming him with what exactly? Its not like he hasn't had odds stacked against him before. Edited August 14, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 Wait.... Why has it come down to a combat scenario against vader The original scenario was vader taking a fleet to Raxus... If he dies in space, I don't even have to argue for his death on the ground.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted August 14, 2013 Author Share Posted August 14, 2013 Well lets be fair, Traya is worth quite a few Jedi. But luring in to the Trayus Core and forcing an engagement isn't the only, and neither the best, way to win. Blowing up his flagship of a building he inhabits is. And there are plenty of tactics Traya can employ to prevent Vader from reaching the Trayus Academy. Either way, if either the FE and the DI crumbles, there leaders are going to die at some point. Anyway, to give my honest opinion, and to argue for Canino, I'm not sure I see the DI holding of a siege on the Raxus System, at least without taking any heavy losses. First of all, lets break it down. Traya/Cronal are probably going to foresee the invasion and therefore dedicate the majority of their force to the Raxus System. However despite this they will still be outnumbered almost 2 to 1. Selenial puts forward good points about the DI using their stealthed vessel to overcome that advantage, but lets not forget who is leading the charge - Darth Vader - a brilliant military strategist who may very well even the odds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 Wait.... Why has it come down to a combat scenario against vader The original scenario was vader taking a fleet to Raxus... If he dies in space, I don't even have to argue for his death on the ground.... Well it started with the Sith Assassins and so forth, so I figured this was all coming to Malachor. I haven't really been reading through everything lol. As for Vader and space...well.... Yeah... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 Anyway, to give my honest opinion, and to argue for Canino, I'm not sure I see the DI holding of a siege on the Raxus System, at least without taking any heavy losses. First of all, lets break it down. Traya/Cronal are probably going to foresee the invasion and therefore dedicate the majority of their force to the Raxus System. However despite this they will still be outnumbered almost 2 to 1. Selenial puts forward good points about the DI using their stealthed vessel to overcome that advantage, but lets not forget who is leading the charge - Darth Vader - a brilliant military strategist who may very well even the odds. Anakin Skywalker was arguable almost as good Strategist as Vader, yet Trench put him down rather thoroughly... Lets be honest here, there's only so much a good Strategist can do, I've already posted my arguments as to why I have fighter superiority... By far... The Zann Consortiums Capital ships are the Agressors, and... Well... Agressors can't defend themselves against fighters very well, due to having 2 turbolaser batteries, and the Open Circle Fleet has a helluvalotta firepower. It would be rather safe to say their Ion-Plasma canons would be taken down rather fast... And Malgus' Stealth Fleet would deal a HUGE blow to the Consortium Navy, as I've already said. If anything, their Engines would go down, and then we have to factor in the fact They can't retreat, and are effectively sitting ducks... Even if winning Raxus means I take huge losses, it's the end of the Consortium Fleet IMO, as I not only can reproduce my ships a lot faster, I'd still, after that huge battle, have the forces to cripple their Shipyards... A full out attack on Raxus could quite easily spell doom for the FE, not only because Vader would likely die, but because It would mean I'd have the advantage in Space, able to Bombard their planets and forces, and it would be very hard for their ground forces to land on my planets if they can't break blockades... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 Yeah... Just had this weird Image of Vader standing on an Aggressor screaming THIS. IS. STAR WAAAAAAARS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 Just had this weird Image of Vader standing on an Aggressor screaming THIS. IS. STAR WAAAAAAARS. Weird? No, AWESOME! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted August 14, 2013 Author Share Posted August 14, 2013 Anakin Skywalker was arguable almost as good Strategist as Vader, yet Trench put him down rather thoroughly... Lets be honest here, there's only so much a good Strategist can do, I've already posted my arguments as to why I have fighter superiority... By far... The Zann Consortiums Capital ships are the Agressors, and... Well... Agressors can't defend themselves against fighters very well, due to having 2 turbolaser batteries, and the Open Circle Fleet has a helluvalotta firepower. It would be rather safe to say their Ion-Plasma canons would be taken down rather fast... And Malgus' Stealth Fleet would deal a HUGE blow to the Consortium Navy, as I've already said. If anything, their Engines would go down, and then we have to factor in the fact They can't retreat, and are effectively sitting ducks... Even if winning Raxus means I take huge losses, it's the end of the Consortium Fleet IMO, as I not only can reproduce my ships a lot faster, I'd still, after that huge battle, have the forces to cripple their Shipyards... A full out attack on Raxus could quite easily spell doom for the FE, not only because Vader would likely die, but because It would mean I'd have the advantage in Space, able to Bombard their planets and forces, and it would be very hard for their ground forces to land on my planets if they can't break blockades...Lol, you forgot the part where Anakin changes tactics and Trench dies... Anyway I wouldn't put too much stock in your fighters, especially given the fact you won't have that many. That said those you do have would be a could weapon against those Aggressors. However said Aggressors will deal some serious damage to your big, hulking targets. And lets not forget the overall firepower the Consoritum Navy can dish out, on top of massive plasma and ion cannons they've got concussion missile launchers, shield leechers and mass drivers. On top of standard weaponry. Nor would I put to much stock in your surprise attack, it will certainly allow you to effectively flank them but they will still be shielded. At best you'll disable there shields and do some damage to their rear vessels, but that still leaves front and middle unharmed. Then they'll turn around and open fire. I think, regardless of opening moves, this is going to be a long and costly battle. With losses on all sides, and victory being decided by a number of factors, some that we haven't even considered yet. P.S. I think if Vader loses he will escape. If he can't do this through conventional means he'll just hop in a starfighter and fly away. He is the best starfighter pilot in the galaxy. You'd be more than hard pressed catching him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 Lol, you forgot the part where Anakin changes tactics and Trench dies... A minor detail Anyway I wouldn't put too much stock in your fighters, especially given the fact you won't have that many. That said those you do have would be a could weapon against those Aggressors. However said Aggressors will deal some serious damage to your big, hulking targets. And lets not forget the overall firepower the Consoritum Navy can dish out, on top of massive plasma and ion cannons they've got concussion missile launchers, shield leechers and mass drivers. On top of standard weaponry. Eh, I'd have enough. This attack won't be launched right off the Bat, and the Only vessels besides fighters I'd want Sienar producing would be Interdictors, the Republic Stealth Ship, and Enforcer Class picket Cruisers.... The fighters are good. Nor would I put to much stock in your surprise attack, it will certainly allow you to effectively flank them but they will still be shielded. At best you'll disable there shields and do some damage to their rear vessels, but that still leaves front and middle unharmed. Then they'll turn around and open fire. Again, You're not taking in what i've said. The Open Circle Fleet has MAJOR firepower. A Lot. Of. Fire. Power. The Consortium will put power to the forward shields, It takes time for them to react and divert power back across the entire vessel, and by that time the engines would be down. Even then, them having to put shields across the entire ship is a major advantage too, easier to break through for my Cruisers. I think, regardless of opening moves, this is going to be a long and costly battle. With losses on all sides, and victory being decided by a number of factors, some that we haven't even considered yet. Like... Fighter Superiority And weather or not we can take out the Ion-Plasma canons, because despite what you say, that's the biggest advantage to the FE and the biggest risk for the DI. P.S. I think if Vader loses he will escape. If he can't do this through conventional means he'll just hop in a starfighter and fly away. He is the best starfighter pilot in the galaxy. You'd be more than hard pressed catching him. Interdictors bud, I'll have all the time to catch him. Besides, You're forgetting the Tractor beams my ships have, powerful enough to lock any ship straight in it's sights, no matter how outstanding of a pilot you are, you can't out pilot a tractor beam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 To gauge Vader's piloting ability take note of this... In a training exercise using a TIE fighter, he solo'd a group of TIEs and then toyed with Colonel Vindoo Barvel who was considered to be the best pilot in the galaxy before shooting him down. He was able to do various maneuvers, that a TIE would not be capable of doing. During the exercise his TIEs targeting and navigational computer were disabled too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 To gauge Vader's piloting ability take note of this... In a training exercise using a TIE fighter, he solo'd a group of TIEs and then toyed with Colonel Vindoo Barvel who was considered to be the best pilot in the galaxy before shooting him down. He was able to do various maneuvers, that a TIE would not be capable of doing. During the exercise his TIEs targeting and navigational computer were disabled too. Tractor beams brah. Tractor beams... Besides, the difference between them gets smaller when the fighters he's fighting against are far superior... But yeh, Tractor beams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 (edited) Tractor beams brah. Tractor beams... Besides, the difference between them gets smaller when the fighters he's fighting against are far superior... But yeh, Tractor beams. They would need to get the tractor beam on him however. Which won't be easy, especially given the engines on Vader's TIE Adv. Edited August 14, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 Honostly Selenial's figher superiority should not be underestimated here. She has more then what the Seinar produce the Open Circle fleet last I checked was filled with ships that housed a much larger fighter assortment than usual and with out a lot of concussive missile tubes or laser cannons/point defense laser cannons it will become incredibly difficult to fight off the fighters and fighter/bombers and of course bombers that the DI will be bringing to the table. Remember fighters exist for a reason they can be very powerful, and that seems an issue for the consortium as it seems their defenses are suited for larger ships a group like the DI which is more heavily focused on fighter superiority would cause the consortium very serious problems. Now we should not underestimate Vader's flight capabilities either. There have been a few shown ways to get out of tractor beams so even those aren't going to neccisarily capture Vader. Honostly I do not see him dieing in the opening skirmish and it will be almost a need to swarm him. Though I am not sure DI can out produce the FE I will need more info on all that to be sure of any of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 (edited) They would need to get the tractor beam on him however. Which won't be easy, especially given the engines on Vader's TIE Adv. Indeed, but the Avenger and the Defender are actually faster... And Sienar Fleet systems actually designed Vaders Tie.... Would Vader actually have that fighter though? Edited August 14, 2013 by Selenial Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 (edited) Indeed, but the Avenger and the Defender are actually faster... And Sienar Fleet systems actually designed Vaders Tie.... Would Vader actually have that fighter though? I realize that but were speaking of tractor beams here, though I don't see why Vader wouldn't...it is his own personal and modified TIE. Also while the Avenger and Defender are faster, the pilots don't have The Force which along with Vader's piloting ability is a huge advantage for him. Also seeing as even being wounded as he was, his piloting skills nor his precognition didn't deteriorate, so his reaction time is still ridiculous. Edited August 14, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 I realize that but were speaking of tractor beams here, though I don't see why Vader wouldn't...it is his own personal and modified TIE. Also while the Avenger and Defender are faster, the pilots don't have The Force which along with Vader's piloting ability is a huge advantage for him. That's actually a fantastic point. My fleets are apparently manned by the Forces of Revans Sith Empire... Does that mean I get it's force Sensitive pilots too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 Though I am not sure DI can out produce the FE I will need more info on all that to be sure of any of it. Just thought I'd chip in here, from what I understand from Beni: The Shipyard world can produce your original Ships, Your Supply world can produce any vehicles your supplier can... This means I can produce my ships on Raxus and Bonadan, so it's likely, if the both fleets were nearly obliterated, I'd actually gain the numbers advantage. Again, this is if I've understood it correctly... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 That's actually a fantastic point. My fleets are apparently manned by the Forces of Revans Sith Empire... Does that mean I get it's force Sensitive pilots too? ? They had force sensitive pilots? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 ? They had force sensitive pilots? As all Navies do when they're Sith and Jedi... Yeh o.0 The Jedi and the Sith openly piloted ships in the Old Republic, especially in the Republic if the Law making Jedi Generals hadn't been enacted. But yeh, Jedi and Sith piloted ships "Back in the Day" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 ? They had force sensitive pilots? I do not think that they did. I think was mostly droids technically since I think some were made by the star forge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 (edited) As all Navies do when they're Sith and Jedi... Yeh o.0 The Jedi and the Sith openly piloted ships in the Old Republic, especially in the Republic if the Law making Jedi Generals hadn't been enacted. But yeh, Jedi and Sith piloted ships "Back in the Day" Ya I know they did, but what I mean is...your Navy is being ran by the remains of Raven's Sith Empire right?...Ok but do we know for sure that they had Force Sensitive pilots? Or is this just speculation? I mean I can go along with that they may have had some, but I doubt they were extraordinary. I do not think that they did. I think was mostly droids technically since I think some were made by the star forge Possible. Edited August 14, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warren-Stride Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 (edited) I think the Zann Consortium navy is being really underestimated here. It seems that it has been reduced to merely one type of ship, and thus has an exploitable weakness against fighters. But then, there's the Crusader-class corvette that utterly DEMOLISHES all types of fighters. Not to mention the buzz droids that will protect the larger vessels from bombing runs. And then there's the Marauder-class corvette, which sends out missiles that will make every single fighter in its range explode. I don't think the DI's fighters, no matter how superior, will be a problem. Edited August 14, 2013 by Warren-Stride Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 Ya I know they did, but what I mean is...your Navy is being ran by the remains of Raven's Sith Empire right?...Ok but do we know for sure that they had Force Sensitive pilots? Or is this just speculation? I mean I can go along with that they may have had some, but I doubt they were extraordinary. Oh, I highly doubt they were Extraordinary, it's just a thought, they could help with Fighter Superiority though... Well, we know Jedi piloted vessels in battle, but it's assumption that Dark Jedi did too... Tunewalker brings up a great point too, do I get the droids? Because they're Rakatan technology... They'd be better than most Consortium Pilots, most pilots in general actually Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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