Shadows, we aren't looking too hot...

[Xinika]

(Repost for those who do not read Assassin forums)

 

From an outsider's point of view, they'd think all is well with Assassins / Shadows solely because of two things. Resilience / Shroud and Stealth. While it's fine to sit on the outside and judge the class based on these two advantages (Even though one of them only works half the time) the truth is this class is in the gutter in every field.

 

It took me a while to sift through the delusions of 'omg-burst' and 'We're so cool', but in reality we're not. We're underperforming in virtually every aspect. In PvP and PvE. All three of our specs are currently sub optimal.

 

Does anyone else see a gigantic problem with that?

 

In PvE, Deception (aka Infiltration) is quite possibly, the worst DPS spec in the game and completely useless to the raid in every shape, fashion and form. Balance (aka Madness) has a stupendous ramp-up time based on a series of DoTs that require such precision play, the slightest mistake is an absolute drop in performance. Even at peak levels of perfected play, the spec still pales in comparison to every other viable DPS spec in game. Sins are not even a second-hand choice for progression raids. We simply are not needed and not wanted.

 

Darkness (aka Kinetic Combat) suffers to tank spikiness, and while it is most obvious in PvE, it also quite frankly shows all too well and good in PvP. One could argue we don't even have a tank spec in PvP but rather, a wanna-be-tank spec. Granted, the spec does do decent damage for a 'supposed' tank spec, but the survivability, as an actual tank, is laughable at best. There are times when you can mitigate damage solidly, then there are others where you get shot down faster than a sage.

 

Our 51 ability, Phase Walk, has no use in PvE. It's implementation was clearly meant for PvP. Although, even then, it's not really that good. There's a cast time (lolwhat?), delay on use, no range checker and no buff-remover (goes on CD when you remove the buff). Whilst many of our abilities and specs may look great on paper, the execution is very poorly done. At least, this is how it is now. Lot of it has to do with the fact that our class is not the gem it once was. It is slowly becoming more and more outdated.

 

Operatives wanted a gap closer, they got that and more (See: Roll) which now makes our Force Speed look like a joke. Immortal Juggs in DPS gear have become the old KC / Darkness. (As in great damage, great survivability, great control) Snipers and Marauders both bring more to the table than we can offer. (Flashbang, Hunker-Down, Bloodthirst, Predation, Awe) In addition to their far superior damage. Other classes are seemingly on par with our utility (or have more) in addition to their ability to perform their roles better. (Tanking / DPS)

 

I'm sure some are still being mislead by Deception's *okay* opener burst, or Darkness' ability to be suboptimal but put up 'numbers' on the scoreboard, but sit back for a moment and really think for a second...

 

We're not really that good. Infact, we kinda suck.

 

With 4v4 Arenas around the corner, I'm most excited to get my sin / shadow in there and actually do real PvP. However, these things have been building on me. High-end teams will always have the answer to your opener burst (as Deception) and when that burst doesn't connect, what are you going to do? Sure, you can be a peelbot, interrupt casts and so on and so forth, but compare yourself to other, real DPS classes and suddenly you start lagging behind really fast. It may be too early to judge for Arena, but currently as we are, a lot of people are overrating us.

 

I watch many other sins / shadows go through the same thing. Sometimes when I see a sin open up on my team mates, I somewhat giggle. We know his *okay* burst is coming, then after that, he's so useless it's almost better to just keep him alive. And Balance in PvP? Well, I've relieved myself of that Madness a long time ago...

 

General Ideas:

Here are some of the ideas I had in mind for the tune ups. They have been influenced by the community so they act as a mixture of suggestions and answers. Keep in mind all values are X.

 

General

• Crushing Darkness / Mind Crush cast time increased to 3.5s for all Assassins / Shadows. This change will take effect to reduce burst and discourage unintentional playstyle in non-casting specs.

• Phase Walk's cast time has been removed and can now be used in a similar fashion to Death Field. In addition, this ability no longer goes on cooldown if the buff is removed and the animation delay has also been fixed.

• Dark Charge's healing effect has been removed. Instead, this Charge will now reduce all damage taken by 5%.

• Properly adjusted Force Shroud to work as intended.

 

 

Deception

• Deceptive Power has been redesigned. This Talent now places a Deceptive mark on the target, increasing the critical chance for the entire raid by 3% whenever Thrash or Voltaic Strike are used. Stacks up to 3 times.

• Nerve Wracking has been redesigned. Whenever Phase Walk is deployed, critical hits have a 50/100% chance to grant 5/10% armor penetration for 5/10 seconds. In addition, this talent now reduces the cooldown on Phase Walk by 5/10 seconds.

• Deceptive Power moved to Tier 6. Static Cling moved to Tier 3. Magnetism moved to Tier 5.

• Voltaic Slash's force cost has been reduced by 5 and its base damage has been increased by 5%.

Raid Utility + Sustained Damage increased.

 

 

Madness

• Force Horrors periodic damage benefit has been increased to 5/10/15% per rank.

• Crackling Charge's damage benefit has been increased to 12/24% per rank.

• Haunted Dreams reverted to make Whirlwind instant on rank 2/2.

• Corrupted Flesh redesigned to increase the benefit of Alacrity by 30/60%.

• Raze now benefits from Creeping Terror. In addition, Crushing Darkness can no longer be cleansed whenever Raze is active.

• Deathmark now benefits all periodic damaging abilities for the entire raid.

• Lingering Nightmares has been redesigned. This talent now increases the damage of Crushing Darkness by 10/20%.

• Devour has been redesigned to increase all healing effects on the raid by 10% for 30 seconds whenever Death Field is used. In addition, it now causes Death Field to reduce all damage and healing dealt by the effected target(s) by 7.5/15% for 15 seconds.

• Lambaste has been redesigned. This talent now gives a 100% chance for Assassinate to be used at any health % and reduces its force cost by 100% after landing a force critical hit if used within 15 seconds. In addition, the damage of this ability is increased by 5% for each active periodic damaging effect. Cannot occur more than once every 30 seconds.

• Shapeless Spirit has been redesigned. This talent now increases the chance to resist control effects by 25/50%. In addition, whilst Phase Walk is active, you heal for 3% of your maximum health every 3 seconds if your current health drops below 33%.

• Creeping Terror's force cost reduced by 10 and its base damage has been increased by 10%.

Raid Utility + Overall Viability increased.

 

 

Darkness

• Charge Mastery's internal / elemental damage reduction reduced to 2/3/6%.

• Swelling Shadows has been redesigned to increase armor rating whilst in Dark Charge by 5/10%.

• Harnessed Shadows healing effect reduced to 1.5%.

Stability.

Edited August 12, 2013 by Xinika

[OllieOne]

I am new to the game and perhaps my personal experiences might not reflect what the majority of the community is feeling, but regardless, as a "new" member of the community i would like to say that.. we do suck..

when i first started in this game i tried the balance route, i was a disaster, that's obvious, but at the time me and my brother started in this game together, he made a sentinel, watchman build and on every aspect on every moment and almost on every situation i under performed compared to his damage and numbers..

so i decided to come to this forums and look for an alternative, then i found all the guides and posts about infiltration and decided to give it a go.

don't get me wrong, i don't regret it, i am in love with how can it be played as posted in this boards on many impressive videos,and on to how thanks to the guides in here i learned a lot about it,While i enjoy the rotations and the spect and quite frankly i don't want to play any other class in game after getting a taste of what they can do, it is frustrating to see that every time that i do a flash point with my brother and his sent, he will always, and maybe not at first, but over time outclass me...

i hope that now that we got a voice as a community this get addressed or at least acknowledge by the developing team and some change it's in order.. cause no matter what i don't want and i wont quit my shadow.

[helpmewin]

All sins deception take power-surge for burst for 3-4 GCD kills. If u whana DPS just take more crit. No? Thats reduce their mega-burst? Its your way note mine.Whana burst? power-surge, whana dps? crit-power-surge-accuracy it is simple.

Shadow tanks - node guarders, and almost always been. But! They need some DR mb 3-5% and something else, and sacrifice for this their DPS(remove shadow wrap, remove project acceleration with force potency) cause most of them use hybrid spec for better surv and control in RWZ matches. http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#601MIModdfzZfrzRkG0oZb.3

Shadow balance - they are worst than sages in this spec yes. But they are not so bad. They need more DPS.

And i saw a lot of shadows in infiltration with PVE 72 gear. Mb they are not so bad? Mb L2 gear?

Edited August 5, 2013 by helpmewin

[Kitru]

cause no matter what i don't want and i wont quit my shadow.

 

I'm the same way. I don't *want* to have to go to some other AC to be effective. The problem is that, right now, Shadows are bottom tier at *everything*. Even in our PvP niche with Infiltration, we're not even the outright best in comparison to Scrapper Scoundrels who have better survivability (thanks to better CDs), better mobility (thanks to the Roll), and better utility, while still packing the same frontloading capability. The only thing we do *well* is node guard and that's not even something unique to us, nor is it something that can't be done just as well by other ACs.

[oaceen]

i disagree about the roll but agree with pretty much everything else.

 

my main shadow spec is tanking in pve, and i just haven't done it all since 2.0 except the occasional HM FP. he still has the SnV one-time quest.

my guild didn't even like me going on test because it was so hard to heal, even after the change to project's force cost

 

just before 2.0, i finally 'got' balance, and it really clicked for me. it was a very fun spec to play and now... it's awful and boring. and not only is it boring, but the dps is terrible.

it's like it got a mediocre boost to AOE dps in exchange for ever being useful.... ever in a single-target fight. great trade-off

Edited August 5, 2013 by oaceen

[VigDiath]

I have to agree. I don't want to retire my Shadow, but it's looking like I may have to. Especially since I have a Guardian and a PT that can withstand more of a beating than my Shadow can when tanking and my Gunslinger and Guardian can out dps my Shadow when I spec DPS.

 

I was never one for Infiltration but I've played it and it does good damage but nothing compared to other classes. I was always about the Balance spec if I wasn't tanking. Balance right now is a joke. Set up is too long for the price you pay in force spent and lackluster DPS. If they don't want to give us back Shadow Strike as part of our rotation, I'm fine with that. But they need to make it so that FiB hits harder (either through a proc or a talent) and have other abilities that benefit. None of that BS about the last 30% being where we really shine. My Gunslinger in Sabotage shines for an entire fight.

[Kitru]

None of that BS about the last 30% being where we really shine.

 

The funny thing about that comment is that it's been thoroughly debunked. The comparative performance in the execute phase is *tiny* compared to what would be required to actually bolster Shadow DPS up to where it *should* be. It's just further evidence of the dev's general incompetence and overreliance upon abstract theory rather than practical knowledge and analysis of *real* numbers.

[ArchangelLBC]

The funny thing about that comment is that it's been thoroughly debunked. The comparative performance in the execute phase is *tiny* compared to what would be required to actually bolster Shadow DPS up to where it *should* be. It's just further evidence of the dev's general incompetence and overreliance upon abstract theory rather than practical knowledge and analysis of *real* numbers.

 

Actually, considering your ability to theory craft expected DPS increases from dummy parses, it shows not so much their over reliance on abstract theory so much as their inability to properly do abstract theory. So they're incompetent when it comes to theory too.

[Kitru]

Actually, considering your ability to theory craft expected DPS increases from dummy parses, it shows not so much their over reliance on abstract theory so much as their inability to properly do abstract theory. So they're incompetent when it comes to theory too.

 

The most bothersome part of all that is that it took all of 5 minutes after finding a parse to base the math off of (which only took a couple minutes). Hell, it wouldn't be that hard to create a specific modifier to parses that specifically modifies the given abilities for any spec to account for execute phases. It might be an idea for TORParse to institute: an "execute normalizer" button to balance out dummy parses. Tack on an "armor debuff normalizer" and you'd be entirely golden to account for the stuff the devs think can't be accounted for in dummy parses.

[kwestone]

The most bothersome part of all that is that it took all of 5 minutes after finding a parse to base the math off of (which only took a couple minutes). Hell, it wouldn't be that hard to create a specific modifier to parses that specifically modifies the given abilities for any spec to account for execute phases. It might be an idea for TORParse to institute: an "execute normalizer" button to balance out dummy parses. Tack on an "armor debuff normalizer" and you'd be entirely golden to account for the stuff the devs think can't be accounted for in dummy parses.

 

I love these threads. You guys are my AA. My guildies are so sick of my talking about it that its a running joke now.

 

My name is kwestone and I'm an assassin. Its been 1 month since my last NiM tanking run.

[ArchangelLBC]

I love these threads. You guys are my AA. My guildies are so sick of my talking about it that its a running joke now.

 

My name is kwestone and I'm an assassin. Its been 1 month since my last NiM tanking run.

 

Hi kwestone.

[Kajuana]

I don't think we are that bad... but more or less brought in line with other classes for PVP.

Or should I say, other classes were brought in line with us?

 

We are still kings of 1v1, but need to work for it now.

We are still good node guards, just not as hardy as before.

We still rock in huttball, although other classes e.g. commandos and scoundrels have become just as influential.

Our DPS in group situation still not as good as a slinger nor a sentinel, but that didn't change. We are still better than scoundrels.

The biggest loss we had was the uber "hybrid build" which gave us both massive utility and burst, but we all knew that was gonna go at some point.

 

I am not sure which direction is better to "fix" us in PVP.

Do you want bigger burst and crappy sustained damage? Or do you want more sustained damage with existing burst --- making us sentinel-like but with stealth? (sounds OP)

Maybe the best way is to give us back the utilities --- insta force lift, force pull, movement impair breaking force speeds, out of stealth spinning kick?

I think PVP-wise we are very close to where we should be... but please do fix resilience, that is simply not working as intended.

 

PVE is the sadder part of the story.

Tank-wise, non-end-end-game is ok.

We only have an issue with end-end-game NIM runs.

TBH once that can be fixed I think we'd be ok though.

Maybe add an attribute on kinetic barrier to make sure we cannot take damage over 50% of maximum HP in one-shot.

 

PVE DPS is still subpar, that hasn't changed.

Revamping the balance line to give better sustainable DPS is probably the best approach for right now.

[DarthSpekulatius]

We are still better than scoundrels.

The biggest loss we had was the uber "hybrid build" which gave us both massive utility and burst, but we all knew that was gonna go at some point.

 

I am not sure which direction is better to "fix" us in PVP.

Do you want bigger burst and crappy sustained damage? Or do you want more sustained damage with existing burst --- making us sentinel-like but with stealth? (sounds OP)

Maybe the best way is to give us back the utilities --- insta force lift, force pull, movement impair breaking force speeds, out of stealth spinning kick?

have you played a Scoundrel? they outperform us on the Dummy (that means without splashing their strongest attack (XS)).

nothing at all has changed with Pull & out of stealth Kick & Force speed that's all how it has been.

only Forcelift got nerfed (while other DOT classes got their CC Buffed.)

about Hybrids they are still there the problem is the nerfs to the full Trees accidentally made Hybrids less useful as well.

if you think Shadows were Op in Huttball (a Map where a tank shadow loses a big chunk of his total Mitigation because it's impractical to stand still for 1/4 of the Time) then you never played a Guardian there

but then I don't play ranked and my Shadow&Guardian have always been Tank for PVP (except for one try with Balance *shudder*).

[Majspuffen]

have you played a Scoundrel? they outperform us on the Dummy (that means without splashing their strongest attack (XS)).

nothing at all has changed with Pull & out of stealth Kick & Force speed that's all how it has been.

only Forcelift got nerfed (while other DOT classes got their CC Buffed.)

about Hybrids they are still there the problem is the nerfs to the full Trees accidentally made Hybrids less useful as well.

if you think Shadows were Op in Huttball (a Map where a tank shadow loses a big chunk of his total Mitigation because it's impractical to stand still for 1/4 of the Time) then you never played a Guardian there

but then I don't play ranked and my Shadow&Guardian have always been Tank for PVP (except for one try with Balance *shudder*).

 

I actually think she has a good point. Shadows do have extremely good cooldowns for utility, as a baseline. I think that needs a nerf, somehow, before we get any buffs. I still play my Balance Shadow and since I can't do any damage (aside from scoreboard fluff), I fill objective roles instead. And for objectives, Shadows are still probably the best class in the game.

 

But how? Should Bioware remove some of our utility? In WoW when Warriors had too many strong offensive CDs, Blizzard changed the mechanics around so that you couldn't pop two at the same time. Huge nerf to Warrior burst but it did bring them in line with other classes. Maybe it is time for Bioware to start nerfing things. For instance, what if you couldn't cast any Force Attacks while Resilience is up? For Huttball that would mean no more Force Shroud + Force Speed through fires, and no more Force Shroud + Force Wave to guarantee ball cap at mid. That would mean that while you're in yellow god mode, you wouldn't be able to dish out all your damage. Which seems fair to me... but could this really function without any sort of cancelaura macros?

 

That is just one example and I think a lot of people will disagree. But right now we are so damn good at objective play that we are pigeonholed into defense duty. Can we really be so damn strong at objective play and have the same DPS as other classes?

 

Of course, Operatives have become really powerful for objective play as well, but the implementation of Exfiltrate (aka lolroll) was daft. The animation is jerky and looks more like blink from WoW. The engine can't handle it. Being able to move unseen AND faster than every other class is also a daft concept. Whatever happened to sneaking? Sneaking should mean that others move faster than you! Lolroll should break stealth... as for that matter, so should force speed.

 

But that's just my opinion...

[Kitru]

For instance, what if you couldn't cast any Force Attacks while Resilience is up? For Huttball that would mean no more Force Shroud + Force Speed through fires, and no more Force Shroud + Force Wave to guarantee ball cap at mid. That would mean that while you're in yellow god mode, you wouldn't be able to dish out all your damage. Which seems fair to me... but could this really function without any sort of cancelaura macros?

 

Unless it were PvP specific, that would screw over PvE *hard*, especially tanks who already live or die in a lot of content based on Resilience working and using Force Powers for self healing.

 

Honestly, I'd be curious how exactly the claim that Shadows have "too much" utility can be validated. Shadows have stealth (and the two commensurate attachments: a short term stealth boost, a vanish, and a sap), Force Speed, a 10m stun, Phase Walk, Force Lift, and Force Wave. Even if it's nominally a *lot* (it doesn't look like all that much to me when you compare it to the utility suites of half of the other ACs, but I admit that I'm not the most apt arbiter of PvP utility), they're still handicapped by their low survivability (Deflection is really weak especially in PvP since there's so much F/T; Resilience only provides 3 seconds of immunity every minute, which is a *lot* less than what Sent/Maras manage; and Shadows have the absolute worst DR of any mDPS).

 

Utility, as a balancing concept, is *really* hard to explicitly quantify since so much of it is conditional. For everything that *is* quantifiable, however, Shadows suffer from *very* poor performance. Unless a *very* strong case can be made that Shadow utility is well *beyond* the utility suites of *every other AC*, you can't really claim that it's a fully adequate balancing factor. At best, it would offset the survivability problems of the DPS specs which would still necessitate fixes to offensive capabilities.

[Majspuffen]

Honestly, I'd be curious how exactly the claim that Shadows have "too much" utility can be validated. Shadows have stealth (and the two commensurate attachments: a short term stealth boost, a vanish, and a sap), Force Speed, a 10m stun, Phase Walk, Force Lift, and Force Wave. Even if it's nominally a *lot* (it doesn't look like all that much to me when you compare it to the utility suites of half of the other ACs, but I admit that I'm not the most apt arbiter of PvP utility), they're still handicapped by their low survivability (Deflection is really weak especially in PvP since there's so much F/T; Resilience only provides 3 seconds of immunity every minute, which is a *lot* less than what Sent/Maras manage; and Shadows have the absolute worst DR of any mDPS).

 

It is a lot more than what other classes have. Especially when you factor in the short CDs of our abilities and what we can get from our trees (Tanks gets a pull, Infiltration gets a 4s mez on a 15s CD and Balance gets a 30m 2s root).

 

Utility, as a balancing concept, is *really* hard to explicitly quantify since so much of it is conditional. For everything that *is* quantifiable, however, Shadows suffer from *very* poor performance. Unless a *very* strong case can be made that Shadow utility is well *beyond* the utility suites of *every other AC*, you can't really claim that it's a fully adequate balancing factor. At best, it would offset the survivability problems of the DPS specs which would still necessitate fixes to offensive capabilities.

 

What is quantifiable in PvP? Mitigation may be the only thing. With cast times and interrupts and roots and knockbacks, you cannot really calculate damage. The class with the best damage in PvP is probably the class with the best up-time. If we're looking at numbers only, then Balance Shadows are fine. It is not difficult to pump out great numbers on the scoreboard. But that damage is easily healed, wherein lies the problem. So even if Balance Shadows pump out 400-600 more DPS than a Carnage Marauder, does that mean they are better?

 

Nope. Not for killing, at least, but they do make better node-guards because of Stealth, Vanish, Force Shroud, Saps and all that nonsense. Operatives have stealth, vanish and sap too, but are they equal to Shadows when it comes to node-guarding?

 

Nope. Shadows can block blinds and sap with Force Shroud and they have Force wave and Whirling blow to unstealth enemy stealthers and they can effectively node-guard 60m away from the node due to Phase Walk.

 

Shadows do have a lot of great utility and survivability (they are still the best 1v1 class no?)... For PVP! For PvE their utility sucks. The irony is all kinds of wonderful. Operative DPS, for example, have not only more damage than a Shadow but they provide a combat res as well. They've got more CC than Shadows too if that even means anything for PvE these days.

 

So how on earth do they balance this trainwreck? Not by buffing. It is time that Bioware starts nerfing things, too. I don't know the PvE implications of being unable to use force attack during force shroud for PvE, but as I see it, it can't be too bad... Force Shroud doesn't last for too long. Not when the time to kill is 6-10m, unlike 8-20s, like it is in PvP. If Bioware alleviated the problem of Shadow tank spiky-ness, I bet they could survive this nerf.

Edited August 7, 2013 by Majspuffen

[DarthSpekulatius]

a Slinger can bump people away and has CC immunity as well

a Commando can Bump People away and has limited CC immunity

a Sage can Bump people away and has 10sec of immunity while he waits for the Ball

to name some Specs that could do your Huttball grabbing better or almost as well.

and their CC immunities have no 5% lol chance.

 

 

all our incredible abilities are outperformed by or equal to untalented Baseline Abilities from other Classes.

yes we have an Unique package but if you Compare us to other Classes they have at least one of our strengths and are better then we are in two other Aspects without completely relying on it.

the Problem is we also have an Unique assembly of weaknesses.

look trough the class Forum every Class has some Problem that is shared by Shadows.

 

it's like Guardian Saber Reflect it's an AOE aggro Cheat with unlimited Targets but when its not available you lag far behind Shadow Threat.

 

(Tanks gets a pull, Infiltration gets a 4s mez on a 15s CD and Balance gets a 30m 2s root)

all Vanguards get a Pull, 2/4 classes have an AOE mezz baseline, every Jump is a Root.

Edited August 7, 2013 by DarthSpekulatius

[helpmewin]

All the invisible classes(scoundrel and shadow) is good node guarders. But the best node guarder is scoundrel healer,stealth- heals - aoe flash - rolls - 30m attacks. What distinguishes good from not good node guarder is stealth. Problem with shadow tank is that pre 2.0 he can to def healer in RWZ(not so good as guardian but can) and with 2.0 only thing he can do is node guarding, he is dead on mid. I love universality and this situation makes me little sadly. And thats why i didn't go to RWZ, cause i love shadow tank with DPS gear and always love half-tanks. If i loved guardian i'm playing guardian tank with DPS gear. Why DPS gear? Universality. I have vanguard tank hybrid with PDS gear and he is more better to def healer that shadow hybrid and not so bad as node guarder - 7 rockets, and not so bad as DPS(his DPS is more highter than my shadow tank hybrid have), but i love lightsabers. Edited August 7, 2013 by helpmewin

[DarthSpekulatius]

look trough the class Forum every Class has some Problem that is shared by Shadows.

 

but don't read the questions that got asked by the sentinels&Snipers

I didn't know if I should go back to my Mara on the wrongside, delete her or simply weep.

not their Fault they had to ask their questions first.

 

but Paowee had lots of QOL Stuff in his spreadsheet that would have been realistic to Implement and all six Questions can be translated into:

we want more DPS

or into

we don't want to Respecc to the Perfect Specc for certain Fights to play Optimal

 

while the top three Problems for us currently are:

#x primary Question - (Secondary Question )

#1 shadow Tanks are way more Spiky - (precision has to huge an impact on DPS)

then either of the other Two

#2 DPS not being able to fulfill their Job in PVP -(roles open to shadows in PVP are to Specialized)

#3 our lv51 ability is crappy implemented -(please add the 5% Resilience bug to the known Issues)

I'm really, really interested in the Responses.

[kwestone]

I actually think she has a good point. Shadows do have extremely good cooldowns for utility, as a baseline. I think that needs a nerf, somehow, before we get any buffs. I still play my Balance Shadow and since I can't do any damage (aside from scoreboard fluff), I fill objective roles instead. And for objectives, Shadows are still probably the best class in the game.

 

But how? Should Bioware remove some of our utility? In WoW when Warriors had too many strong offensive CDs, Blizzard changed the mechanics around so that you couldn't pop two at the same time. Huge nerf to Warrior burst but it did bring them in line with other classes. Maybe it is time for Bioware to start nerfing things. For instance, what if you couldn't cast any Force Attacks while Resilience is up? For Huttball that would mean no more Force Shroud + Force Speed through fires, and no more Force Shroud + Force Wave to guarantee ball cap at mid. That would mean that while you're in yellow god mode, you wouldn't be able to dish out all your damage. Which seems fair to me... but could this really function without any sort of cancelaura macros?

 

That is just one example and I think a lot of people will disagree. But right now we are so damn good at objective play that we are pigeonholed into defense duty. Can we really be so damn strong at objective play and have the same DPS as other classes?

 

Of course, Operatives have become really powerful for objective play as well, but the implementation of Exfiltrate (aka lolroll) was daft. The animation is jerky and looks more like blink from WoW. The engine can't handle it. Being able to move unseen AND faster than every other class is also a daft concept. Whatever happened to sneaking? Sneaking should mean that others move faster than you! Lolroll should break stealth... as for that matter, so should force speed.

 

But that's just my opinion...

 

Honestly, if you want to ruin the game for PVE assassins just do the above. It's already in the dirt right? Just take the ability to tank right out with your no force attacks during shroud. Why not?

 

As a retort:

 

Remove all burst,, remove stealth (doesnt work in NiM content anyways) remove CC, remove whirlwind entirely, remove force slow (never use that one in an op), remove knockback (again, useless in ops), remove shock (we never use it, bosses are immune!), and add sustained dmg for dps and more mitigation for tanks.

 

When you post ideas please try to remember this game is not entirely PVP.

[Majspuffen]

Jesus Christ, you guys sure are defensive. I want this class well, you'll find that I've done my share of complaining when 2.0 hit. But I'm not blind to the fact that even in its gimped state, Shadows are superb at objective play. Operatives are good too but I don't believe they are better. This could be fixed by nerfing something across the board... for instance, sap? Cap time 8s, sap duration 8s. You've one CC breaker. Force lift 8s, Flashbang 8s.

 

Because of how easy it is to ninja objectives in Warzones, stealthers are being pigeonholed into sitting on defense. Not a lot of players are thrilled about it, but that is where Shadows excel right now. For Huttball, Shadow tanks may not be as durable as Juggernaut tanks or Vanguard tanks, but they don't rely on the enemy to play like idiots in order to ease their way to the scoreline.

 

Phase Walk is ridiculously good for Huttball. No other class can warp back to the defense as fast as Shadows can, and no other class can counter being knocked down from the catwalks. You might say that Juggernauts and Marauders can, but if the person who knocked them down is clever, they'd have broken the LoS already, or jumped down themselves. And finally. no CD comes close to being as overpowered as Force Shroud is for Huttball.

 

I think you guys are exaggerating if you say that being unable to use Force attacks during Force Shroud would break the shadow tank. As I see it, Shadow Tanks are already broken and in need of a repair, and Force Shroud has very little to do with it. The only concern with Force Shroud is the retarded 5% chance of being hit. If you can't cast Force attacks during force shroud, what is the worst that can happen? You lose aggro? You die because you don't get your self heals from telekinetic throw?

Edited August 7, 2013 by Majspuffen

[Kitru]

If you can't cast Force attacks during force shroud, what is the worst that can happen? You lose aggro? You die because you don't get your self heals from telekinetic throw?

 

The fact that a *lot* of HM FP trash pulls *require* you to use Force Shroud in the opening volley would pretty much render Shadows worthless in that regard. Not getting to generate any appreciable aggro for 5 seconds at the start of the fight would turn Shadows into terrible tanks for that.

 

Honestly, if you want to talk about CDs that could turn off the ability to attack without bending over the person using it, look at Saber Reflect: it actually *deals* damage and generates threat while it's active, regardless of what you do. Resilience just lets you avoid it. Resilience is *already* remarkably sub-par compared to Saber Reflect. Making it *worse* isn't the right thing to do.

 

Resilience isn't just a utility ability. It's actually more of a survivability CD. Nerfing a survivability CD because of some utility concerns isn't even *remotely* the right way to go about things. Nerf the utility, not the survivability, especially since Shadows *already* have the worst survivability of pretty much everything out there: Deflection is unreliable and of severely diminished value in PvP thanks to higher F/T ratio and Resilience only buys 3-5 seconds of Immunity whereas Sentinels can bring *way more* than that without any problems (Force Camo > Guarded By The Force with Saber Ward and Rebuke that effectively double their survivability for the lengthy duration of either).

 

The only really cheesy thing that can be done in PvP with Resilience is avoiding interrupts to get node captures. Unless all of the node captures are shorter than 3 seconds (I believe they are but I'm not a PvPer so /shrug), anyone that's actually intelligent is going to be able to watch the Shadow and hit them *after* Resilience drops and they're no longer immune. If you want to make Resilience *not* be used for that purpose, don't try to gib Resilience; just make it so that attempting to capture PvP nodes knocks off Resilience (and hopefully all other similar effects to boot).

Edited August 7, 2013 by Kitru

[Majspuffen]

The fact that a *lot* of HM FP trash pulls *require* you to use Force Shroud in the opening volley would pretty much render Shadows worthless in that regard. Not getting to generate any appreciable aggro for 5 seconds at the start of the fight would turn Shadows into terrible tanks for that.

 

That makes sense.

 

As for the rest of the post; from a pvp standpoint I was suggesting to nerf utility, not survivability. And the cheapest way to use Force Shroud is to first sap+cap, and if the defender breaks the sap you pop force shroud and force lift. They can't interrupt the cast. Guaranteed cap if you get it off. A good player can LoS or vanish, if it is a stealther. Of course, if they avoid Force Lift then you can just vanish yourself and re-sap them. If they are near the turret you can ninja cap it. If they are far away, then you'll have to be lucky. Point is, do you see how many damn options a shadow (and operative for that matter) has to ninja cap? That is why stealthers are required as Node guardians and why I personally want to see things nerfed.

 

Getting side-tracked though, but I don't think I can say much more on the force shroud thing. I love the ability for PvP because it's one of the only few things in the game that allows for some counter-play. Another thing I could suggest, but don't really want to, is to make it so that you are only immune to damage with Force Shroud, and not CC. That makes the ability a lot less fun, but the CC immunity is a bit over the top. With the low time to kill in warzones, 3 seconds (or 5...) is a long time.

 

In 2.0 Bioware did some buffs just for the sake of buffing and it's not helping the game, I feel. Even if Balance Shadows hadn't gotten nerfed to the ground, they'd still been nerfed because other classes got buffed. For instance, Obliterate breaking roots makes it difficult to kite a smashtard and avoid Force Smash outside of Force Shroud. Snipers removing DoTs with Evasion and Operative healers getting a much shorter CD on Evasion doesn't really help us either, having to reapply DoTs so often. Mercs and powertechs having a root immunity and extra run speed every 30s makes them pretty difficult to kite, as well. I guess mercs and powertechs genuinely needed Hydraulic Overrides though, but I don't see why Snipers, Operative healers and Smashtards needed more buffs. They were all great classes/specs before 2.0, and with the addition of the lolrolls and saber reflect, you'd think they wouldn't require more.

 

Anyways, just my 2 cents. I'm tired of this buff-fest. Shadows are in desperate need of buffs, granted, but I'd like to see some nerfs too, where nerfs are due.

Edited August 7, 2013 by Majspuffen

[ArchangelLBC]

I'm sorry but that is just overall a not very good at all suggestion.

 

Your point vis a vis the utility of sap cap is null and void because scoundrels can do the same thing (sap > cap > if opponent breaks then Flash Bang and cap). So no, I don't see how Shadow utility with resilience is OP considering anything we can do other classes can do better, with the singular exception of phase walk utility which, while nice, isn't on it's own gamebreaking, and scamper has arguably wider applicability.

 

Honestly shadow utility IS very good in PVP, but it's not good enough from even an objective standpoint to justify the low killing power and squishiness.

 

Honestly the REAL reason that shadows make better node guards than operatives is that they aren't useful as anything else, whereas operatives make excellent healers. I mean which class are you gonna take away from the main fracas? The best healer in the game or the worst tank in the game?

 

I'm not arguing that shadows aren't good at objectives, in an arena where objectives are very important, but objectives aren't the only important thing, and their weakness in other areas, not to mention their universal weakness in all regards in the current PVE paradigm does not balance things out, and asking for nerfs to utility absolutely shouldn't start with resilience, especially since no damage buff is likely to make them AS dangerous as something like a mara.

 

Arguing that balance can't be all about buffs is all well and good, but saying "they need to start nerfing things, lets start by locking out force abilities when resilience is up" is not the right way to go at all. When have they STOPPED nerfing shadows for crying out loud? You point out how all the other classes got buffed, but your proposed nerf is to shadows? Something seems off about that mate. If you really want to argue for nerfs you should be arguing for other classes to get nerfed so that shadows are relatively buffed. Asking to nerf the weakest class in the game (apparently before any buffs are added) is contraindicated to the highest degree. Isn't that just a nerf for the sake of a nerf, while simultaneously kicking a dog while it's down?

 

You also seemed to ignore that nerfs have in fact already happened. They already nerfed instant force lift (while leaving flash bang as is I might add). Our utility is about fine now. If anything I'd nerf low slash somehow while increasing Infil's damage to not require it so much. THAT would be an example of a reasonable utility nerf to account for a damage buff, and it does so without crippling all shadows in other aspects of the game. Nerfing something as universally good in almost every aspect of the game as resilience is not the way to go at all.

 

At the end of the day we should still more or less keep our "good at objective play, though lower damage" niche, just as shadow tanks should keep the "spikiest damage profile but best mean mitigation" niche in PVE. It's just that right now the weaknesses are all out of proportion to the strengths, and since the strengths are about right, the only thing that makes sense to me is to improve where we're weak.

Edited August 7, 2013 by ArchangelLBC

[Xinika]

Concerning above post. Whilst I don't agree on the personal hits, this post is exactly in line with my thoughts concerning the nerf-buff argument. Edited August 7, 2013 by Xinika
Fixed quote