[Rep] State of the Guardian Address

[Riivan]

Let's get 3 questions then you all can tell the devs how to do their job.

[ArenCordial]

delete Edited August 7, 2013 by ArenCordial

[leto_cleon]

Guardian tanks are boring as hell to play thanks to the simplification issues that came with 2.0. The entire construct for their playstyle is to use their 4 12 second CDs in order (Sweep>Guardian Slash>Sunder>Blade Storm), use Riposte as soon as it lights up (which happens so reliably while actually tanking that it's essentially a set 4.5 sec CD), and then fill the remaining 4 GCDs with whatever else they've got on hand: Master Strike, Hilt Strike, Force Stasis, Slash, and Strike. The only real question you've got to ask yourself is how/whether to use Slash and Strike during those down GCDs since you'll use MS, HS, and FS right away if you've got 'em (which means MS every 30 seconds and HS/FS every 1 minute). Everything else is simply set as a rotation. It's got no real variability or real complexity to it.

 

The current threat generation priority for the Guardian (assuming the armour debuff is up) should be:

1. Guardian Slash (has extra 0.6 threat generated)

2. Dispatch (only at <30%)

3. Master Strike

4. Hilt Strike (has extra 0.3 threat generated)

5. Blade Storm (free with 3 stacks of courage)

6. Force Sweep (has extra 0.3 threat generated, free with 3 stacks of courage)

7. Slash

8. Force Push

9. Saber Throw

10. Riposte

11. Cyclone Slash (actually has an extra 0.3 threat generated, but is still terrible)

12. Sundering Strike

13. Strike

14. Force Leap

 

The current active attack mitigation priority on the other hand should be:

[When facing attacks that mostly roll against defence]

1. Force Sweep (every 20s for the accuracy debuff)

2. Riposte (every 10s)

3. Guardian Slash (every 20s for flat damage reduction)

4. Blade Storm (free with 3 stacks of courage, which sweep and riposte give a higher chance to proc)

[When facing attacks that don't roll against defence]

1. Force Sweep (every 20s for the accuracy debuff)

2. Blade Storm

3. Guardian Slash (every 20s for flat damage reduction)

4. Riposte (every 10s)

 

You would notice that the active attack mitigation priority is different from the threat generation priority. So no the rotation is not exactly boring.

[Kitru]

You would notice that the active attack mitigation priority is different from the threat generation priority. So no the rotation is not exactly boring.

 

You're confusing the *number* of abilities in the priority with complexity of rotation. You're also mistaking the fact that your "mitigation" and "threat" priorities don't actually conflict with one another since you're referring to reapplication windows, not abilities to use on CD for optimal value (also, Sweeping Winds only affects M/R accuracy; it does nothing for F/T; Riposte should actually be higher priority than Force Sweep, if you're going to include an ability that is off the GCD and doesn't actually prevent you from using anything else on said priority list, for F/T since it adds defense *and* resist chance).

 

Half of your GCDs are consumed by abilities with the exact same 12 second CD and you'll *always* use them because they're your best threat generation and mitigation generators. Riposte is simply used on CD. Everything else is simply a raw conditional of "use if it's available", most of which are on CDs that are so long that their contributions, on average, are virtually negligible (Force Push, Hilt Strike, Saber Throw, Force Stasis; seriously, average out their contributions to damage/threat/resources over 60 seconds; it's *tiny* because the CDs are so long that it dilutes the value such that it's almost pointless). Force Leap is even of questionable value since you have to specifically run away from the target, out of melee and even short range, to leap back in (which means it takes up more than just 1 GCD because you're having to run around), and it only generates an extra 2 Focus every 15 seconds (likely closer to 18 when you factor in how it doesn't play well with the 12 second cycle) out of that.

 

You can attempt to complicate the Guardian tank rotation all you want by pointing out conditionals of negligible value. It's not going to change the fact that it's *still* simple as hell. Complicating it only hurts you and makes you look the fool for missing the raw (and obvious) simplicity of the design.

Edited August 8, 2013 by Kitru

[leto_cleon]

You're confusing the *number* of abilities in the priority with complexity of rotation. You're also mistaking the fact that your "mitigation" and "threat" priorities don't actually conflict with one another since you're referring to reapplication windows, not abilities to use on CD for optimal value

No, I've just listed Guardian abilities and which does more threat. I also listed the priorities for active attack mitigation. I did not comment on whether or not they conflict.

 

(also, Sweeping Winds only affects M/R accuracy; it does nothing for F/T; Riposte should actually be higher priority than Force Sweep, if you're going to include an ability that is off the GCD and doesn't actually prevent you from using anything else on said priority list, for F/T since it adds defense *and* resist chance).

 

Sweeping winds is a 5% accuracy debuff and blade barricade is a 5% defence buff (and last I checked there isn't an extra resist buff). Blade barricade also lasts 10s, so in terms of active attack mitigation there is no need to keep using Riposte off cooldown. In terms of threat, Guardian Slash + Blade Storm generates more threat (even with a Riposte crit).

 

most of which are on CDs that are so long that their contributions, on average, are virtually negligible (Force Push, Hilt Strike, Saber Throw, Force Stasis; seriously, average out their contributions to damage/threat/resources over 60 seconds; it's *tiny* because the CDs are so long that it dilutes the value such that it's almost pointless).

As I've side its just a comparative list. That said, not using Master Strike or Hilt Strike off cooldown is just silly (especially early in the fight). Force Stasis is an instant due Stasis Mastery, in a stationary fight, it is usually used in conjunction with Hilt Strike or Master Strike. For boss swap positioning fights, force stasis (or force push) is used with blade storm.

 

Force Leap is even of questionable value since you have to specifically run away from the target, out of melee and even short range, to leap back in (which means it takes up more than just 1 GCD because you're having to run around), and it only generates an extra 2 Focus every 15 seconds (likely closer to 18 when you factor in how it doesn't play well with the 12 second cycle) out of that.

Its just a comparative list, I'm not saying use force leap off cooldown. The only Guardian tanks where it made some sense of doing so were the pre-2.0 hybrid to get the 20% DR from unremitting. Even then, it was simply not usable in quite a number of fights.

 

You can attempt to complicate the Guardian tank rotation all you want by pointing out conditionals of negligible value. It's not going to change the fact that it's *still* simple as hell. Complicating it only hurts you and makes you look the fool for missing the raw (and obvious) simplicity of the design.

Taking into account courage stacks as well as the blade barricade and blade barrier and guardian slash DR buffs as well as needing to generate focus, there are ways to be very efficient in focus use.

[Kitru]

Sweeping winds is a 5% accuracy debuff and blade barricade is a 5% defence buff (and last I checked there isn't an extra resist buff). Blade barricade also lasts 10s, so in terms of active attack mitigation there is no need to keep using Riposte off cooldown. In terms of threat, Guardian Slash + Blade Storm generates more threat (even with a Riposte crit).

 

Sweeping Winds is a 5% M/R accuracy debuff. Blade Barricade was changed in 2.0 to provide 5% resist in addition to 5% defense. As to the threat, you're forgetting that Riposte is off of the GCD. As such, *at worst*, it would generate threat equal to Strike + Riposte for GCD comparison.

[Ugolino]

Forget tanks, what do we want to ask for Guardian DPS?

[wadecounty]

Forget tanks, what do we want to ask for Guardian DPS?

 

I can't think of much, its in a fairly good spot. If you think Gunslingers/Sentinels are the standard for balance, then some sort of raid utility ability. If you think every other class is the standard, then we're just fine, and GS/Sent maybe need to be brought down a small tad (they both have extremely useful utility and for the most part the best DPS).

[Ugolino]

I can't think of much, its in a fairly good spot. If you think Gunslingers/Sentinels are the standard for balance, then some sort of raid utility ability. If you think every other class is the standard, then we're just fine, and GS/Sent maybe need to be brought down a small tad (they both have extremely useful utility and for the most part the best DPS).

 

It really isn't. PVP-wise Focus is distorted to essentially a one button spec and needs to be nerfed into the ground for the sake of balance, Vigilance's attempts at dot damage are just adorable, and there's no reason to take a Guardian over a Sentinel for a DPS for PVP or PVE. More raid utility would be nice but considering the laziness of the developers and how much effort it would take to add entirely new skills, adjusting DPS would be the way to go.

 

Just because they're useable doesn't mean they don't need fixing. Let the other classes worry about their DPS and use Sentinel as SLIGHTLY above standard for comparisons.

Edited August 8, 2013 by Ugolino

[Riivan]

In PVE our damage output pales in comparison to Slingers, Sents, Scoundrels, and I am guessing Sages but I haven't tested mine enough to say for sure. Sure we can parse on par with them on a dummy, but taking that into a raid situation we're usually bringing up the rear and can't add any raid utility like those 4 can.

 

So what are our 3 questions?

[wadecounty]

In PVE our damage output pales in comparison to Slingers, Sents, Scoundrels, and I am guessing Sages but I haven't tested mine enough to say for sure. Sure we can parse on par with them on a dummy, but taking that into a raid situation we're usually bringing up the rear and can't add any raid utility like those 4 can.

 

So what are our 3 questions?

 

I just don't agree with this, people said the same things pre 2.0 and I was able to hang with all but the best Slingers and Sents, and we've only closed the gap since 2.0.

 

Shadows, now that is a class that truly needs buffs for their DPS. The Guardian is fine, it could use very minor tweaks but I'd rather see them add some unique raid utility.

 

Also I wasn't talking about PvP, since PvP balance discussions imo are awful as they tend to focus too much on why "my class" isn't the best or "the class that counters me" is overpowered, instead of looking at how all 8 AC's interact with each other.

[leto_cleon]

Sweeping Winds is a 5% M/R accuracy debuff. Blade Barricade was changed in 2.0 to provide 5% resist in addition to 5% defense.

 

Ah gotcha, cross-check with my Guardian's character sheet when blade barricade is active. The wonders of swtor tooltips.

 

 

As to the threat, you're forgetting that Riposte is off of the GCD. As such, *at worst*, it would generate threat equal to Strike + Riposte for GCD comparison.

 

(Off the top of my head I can't recall how much damage boss armour mitigates (with the armour debuff), so the numbers below would be in terms of potential threat instead of threat itself. However as all the abilities below are mitigated by armour (blade storm is kinetic damage), it would just be potential threat divided by the unmitigated amount to get the actual threat. The damage values are based on my guardian's)

 

Leaving aside the subject of GCD, there is also the subject of threat per focus spent. If GCD is included, it would be a 2 ability vs 3 ability comparison.

 

Guardian Slash + Blade Storm (with 3 courage stacks) is about 11569-12784 potential threat, which is about 3856-4261 potential threat per force spent.

 

Guardian Slash + Riposte is about 9973-11408 potential threat, which is about 2493-2852 potential threat per force spent.

 

Guardian Slash + Riposte (crit) is about 12640-14583 potential threat, which is about 3160-3646 potential threat per force spent.

 

Guardian Slash + Riposte + Strike is about 12095-14038 potential threat, which is about 3024-3509 potential threat per force spent (I calculated strike as 0 force spent, if its calculated as -2, then something like sundering strike would be -5 leading to negative threat or infinite generated, which is of course silly. If strike is -2, then the potential threat per force spent would be 6048-7019. Calculating Riposte simply as free instead, ie Strike is -1, it would be 4032-4679).

 

Blade Storm does 4622-4838 potential threat and at 3 stacks of courage, blade storm is free. Riposte + Strike would be 5148-6092 and as riposte only costs 1 and strike returns that force spent and gives 1 more focus. Riposte alone is 3026-3462.

 

So Guardian Slash + Riposte + Strike > Guardian Slash + Blade Storm. The problem with Strike however is that it is a basic attack. So if strike misses,

 

Guardian Slash + Riposte + Strike (1 miss) is about 11388-13160 potential threat, which is about 2847-3290 potential threat per force spent (If strike is -2 instead of 0, then it would be 5694-6580. If strike is -1, ie free Riposte then it would be 3796-4387)

 

Guardian Slash + Riposte + Strike (2 miss) is about 10680-12284 potential threat, which is about 2670-3071 potential threat per force spent (If strike is -2 instead of 0, then it would be 5340-5142. If strike is -1, ie free Riposte then it would be 3560-4095).

 

(All 3 strikes missing would be the same as Guardian Slash + Riposte really)

 

So in terms of reliability, I would still go for Guardian Slash + Blade Storm (with 3 stack of courage).

[Marb]

Leto I don't understand your comparisons because riposte doesn't compete for a gcd. I know you are comparing focus spent to threat, but its not a relevant metric to use because the only time you are in a position where you would reorder your abilities based on focus efficiency is if you royally screwed the pooch somehow, or if you are not actively tanking the boss.

 

There is no reason to delay riposte, if you are playing a guard right, you will use riposte every single time its up without having any compromising effect on your threat or focus. This actually hasn't changed from pre 2.0. The ability order is biased towards threat slightly to maximize threat on the opener (sweep>guardian slash+riposte>blade storm) after this has been synced the only time you will have to rethink your ability use would be when you are not actively tanking the boss, as during that time focus management does become a priority.

 

And you do want to use masterstrike as close as possible on cd, but you should ensure that you are putting riposte on cooldown immediately before using it, or you may waste a riposte proc entirely during the channel.

 

Once you have synced your cooldowns on the opener, there is simply nothing in the world you have to worry about, everything takes care of itself. You hit the abilities as they light up, and if you can delay sweep for 3 courage stacks you should, but not if its going to push back the use of blade storm or risk the accuracy debuff expiring. Use riposte on cd, use masterstrike as close to on cd as you can (only immediately following a riposte during the deadzone of everything being on cd).

 

I main as a jugg tank and I think you are trying to find complexity that isn't there.

Edited August 9, 2013 by Marb

[Riivan]

I just don't agree with this, people said the same things pre 2.0 and I was able to hang with all but the best Slingers and Sents, and we've only closed the gap since 2.0.

 

Shadows, now that is a class that truly needs buffs for their DPS. The Guardian is fine, it could use very minor tweaks but I'd rather see them add some unique raid utility.

 

Also I wasn't talking about PvP, since PvP balance discussions imo are awful as they tend to focus too much on why "my class" isn't the best or "the class that counters me" is overpowered, instead of looking at how all 8 AC's interact with each other.

 

On raid content that's just not the case. Any slinger, sent or scoundrel worth their salt will be running around 2.8k - 3k dps on any given boss fight. Maybe I just play with good players, but I am almost always 300~ below them. We need something else in the dmg department unless you have figured out something that those of us posting on the vigi thread haven't. Which if you have, do share. We need raid utility as well which should be a question.

 

Should we just start a new 3 questions thread since this has sort of devolved into just discussing mechanics?

[leto_cleon]

Leto I don't understand your comparisons because riposte doesn't compete for a gcd. I know you are comparing focus spent to threat, but its not a relevant metric to use because the only time you are in a position where you would reorder your abilities based on focus efficiency is if you royally screwed the pooch somehow, or if you are not actively tanking the boss.

 

There are fights where one tank is off-tanking first, so in the absence of visionary proccing focus and courage stacks being generated knowing how to be efficient is a boon. Strike spamming (for eg) while off-tanking is really boring.

 

There is no reason to delay riposte, if you are playing a guard right, you will use riposte every single time its up without having any compromising effect on your threat or focus. This actually hasn't changed from pre 2.0. The ability order is biased towards threat slightly to maximize threat on the opener (sweep>guardian slash+riposte>blade storm) after this has been synced the only time you will have to rethink your ability use would be when you are not actively tanking the boss, as during that time focus management does become a priority.

 

And you do want to use masterstrike as close as possible on cd, but you should ensure that you are putting riposte on cooldown immediately before using it, or you may waste a riposte proc entirely during the channel.

 

Blade Barricade last 10s, the cooldown of Riposte is 4.5s, so you don't need to keep using Riposte off cooldown for that buff. Keyword 'need'. In practice, yes you can choose to spam riposte every 4.5s, but that's different from needing to do it.

 

if you can delay sweep for 3 courage stacks you should, but not if its going to push back the use of blade storm or risk the accuracy debuff expiring.

It's got no real variability or real complexity to it.

You just pointed out the variability of keeping up blade barrier vs the accuracy debuff. Add blade barricade to the mix and yes there is enough variability. I'm also not saying only use blade storm or force sweep at 3 stack of courage

 

I main as a jugg tank and I think you are trying to find complexity that isn't there.

My point is about Kitru oversimplifying things, this is distinct from trying to find complexity. Complexity and variability are not my points. The math in the previous post is comparing riposte + strike against blade storm. If strike misses, RNG can result in blade storm being better. This in in reply to:

As such, *at worst*, it would generate threat equal to Strike + Riposte for GCD comparison.

[Marb]

You use riposte off cooldown because:

 

 

• Its off the GCD
  
• It only costs 1 focus
  
• It can't miss
  
• It has a bonus 15% chance to crit
  

 

I'm not sure why you would ever choose to not use riposte, pairing it with the focus generated from taking damage, it is focus neutral. Its free damage.

 

I agree that Kitru oversimplifies the significance of slash spamming (that doesn't happen), but I think he was trying to make a point of comparison, rather then stating that we literally only ever use slash because we are swimming in focus all the time. Pre 2.0, full defense played properly (which was rare because of the way sunder use to work) could almost never use strike. Now focus comes in waves, only to be consumed by all of our abilities coming off cooldown in sequence. So slash is used but I tend to use it more conservatively to ensure I always have focus for riposte, which also comes more frequently with its free proc from guardian slash. In short, riposte is lights-years ahead of slash, and is incomparable to strike.

 

But the fact remains that it is pointless to suggest that we can alter our ability priority based on the situation. Whatever order we use our abilities on the opener determines the order we will use them for the rest of that tanking interval. Our rotation is entirely static because of our 12 second cycle. I don't think choosing to delay sweep for courage stacks counts for much. At the moment the difference between a good Guardian and a bad Guardian is having enough free focus to fit in more slashes, which is inconsequential.

Edited August 9, 2013 by Marb

[leto_cleon]

I'm not sure why you would ever choose to not use riposte, pairing it with the focus generated from taking damage, it is focus neutral. Its free damage.

I think you read too much into that threat generation priority list. The list simply says "this ability generates more threat compared to that". Simply put an ability higher on the list + taunt give much more bang to taunt. This comes into play especially when there is an aggro wipe mechanic. A specific priority list would not be a rotation. My later post on blade storm vs riposte + strike is just an example of comparing the two purely in terms of threat generated. Ahead of strike are also a who slew of other free abilities (albeit on a longer cooldown).

 

But the fact remains that it is pointless to suggest that we can alter our ability priority based on the situation. Whatever order we use our abilities on the opener determines the order we will use them for the rest of that tanking interval. Our rotation is entirely static because of our 12 second cycle.

Which of course assumes that we are able to use our melee abilities all the time. Some mechanics don't allow that.

[Alec_Fortescue]

Giz stacking sunder armor or temporary raid alacrity buff on cd.

[ssfish]

To return to a conversation from a few days ago, a group wide Alacrity buff would not be wasted on our own class, as someone had stated. Rage/Focus would see a noticable gain from an Alacrity buff due to V.Slash spamming (zero CD), which in turn reduces downtime between smashes. During the Enrage/Combat Focus portion of the rotation, and depending, of course, on the amount of Alacrity, we would likely be able to cut out one entire global before the next Smash. This, in turn, would push our next Force Crush back, but it would still fall within the optimal window so as not to waste a global waiting for that third stack before Smash.

 

As far as usefulness for Veng/Vig, it would be ideal for the start of a fight when all of our abilities are available, then those mid-fight phases where we see a Shatter/PB > Impale/OS > Scream/BS > Ravage/MS alignment.

 

I could see it messing with a Marksman Sniper's rotation if they aren't prepared for it, as well as possibly an Anni Marauder (not sure here, since I've only played Carnage, and admittedly don't have the best grasp on Anni), but many of the other DPS classes use zero CD rotations that would require only a little adjustment to account for internal lockouts on procs.

[ArenCordial]

To return to a conversation from a few days ago, a group wide Alacrity buff would not be wasted on our own class, as someone had stated. Rage/Focus would see a noticable gain from an Alacrity buff due to V.Slash spamming (zero CD), which in turn reduces downtime between smashes. During the Enrage/Combat Focus portion of the rotation, and depending, of course, on the amount of Alacrity, we would likely be able to cut out one entire global before the next Smash. This, in turn, would push our next Force Crush back, but it would still fall within the optimal window so as not to waste a global waiting for that third stack before Smash.

 

As far as usefulness for Veng/Vig, it would be ideal for the start of a fight when all of our abilities are available, then those mid-fight phases where we see a Shatter/PB > Impale/OS > Scream/BS > Ravage/MS alignment.

 

I could see it messing with a Marksman Sniper's rotation if they aren't prepared for it, as well as possibly an Anni Marauder (not sure here, since I've only played Carnage, and admittedly don't have the best grasp on Anni), but many of the other DPS classes use zero CD rotations that would require only a little adjustment to account for internal lockouts on procs.

 

The problem with giving us a raid wide buff is going to be everyone is going to want one for their class. Its best to leave that box unopened in my mind.

[ssfish]

The problem with giving us a raid wide buff is going to be everyone is going to want one for their class. Its best to leave that box unopened in my mind.

 

We have nothing to offer a raid group, as a class (DPS). Certain players can perform at an equal level to other classes, but there is currently zero reason to take a Jugg/Guardian on a raid, unless you have a lazy Slinger, no Commando, and no Guardian tank. As a class, our numbers alone don't justify our position in a raid group, since there are multiple classes that can meet or exceed while having more utility or an easier time achieving those numbers (or both).

 

And if the Class Rep Q&A is an indication of things to come, once Sentinels and Marauders can build stacks during Bloodthirst/Predation, that 2nd melee spot that we are able to fill should be getting replaced by a 2nd Sentinel (though an Operative/Scoundrel is already a better pick than a Guardian/Jugg for that spot), assuming we don't get something to make us desirable to a raid group.

 

*To be clear, we are currently viable for all content in the game. By taking a Guardian DPS, the group is making a conscious decision to give up some utility and/or DPS potential in that slot, unless you have a player that performs on the Guardian better than the available alternatives, but then we are discussing players and not classes..

Edited August 9, 2013 by ssfish

[ArenCordial]

We have nothing to offer a raid group, as a class (DPS). Certain players can perform at an equal level to other classes, but there is currently zero reason to take a Jugg/Guardian on a raid, unless you have a lazy Slinger, no Commando, and no Guardian tank. As a class, our numbers alone don't justify our position in a raid group, since there are multiple classes that can meet or exceed while having more utility or an easier time achieving those numbers (or both).

 

And if the Class Rep Q&A is an indication of things to come, once Sentinels and Marauders can build stacks during Bloodthirst/Predation, that 2nd melee spot that we are able to fill should be getting replaced by a 2nd Sentinel (though an Operative/Scoundrel is already a better pick than a Guardian/Jugg for that spot), assuming we don't get something to make us desirable to a raid group.

 

*To be clear, we are currently viable for all content in the game. By taking a Guardian DPS, the group is making a conscious decision to give up some utility and/or DPS potential in that slot, unless you have a player that performs on the Guardian better than the available alternatives, but then we are discussing players and not classes..

 

I don't disagree on any point. The problem is once you start giving utility powers out to us, then the devs are going to start hearing from everyone they need one for their class. Vanguards have what for utility? Harpoon? What will Shadows have to secure a spot over two Sents/Maras? Stealth? If its an enrage issue that won't help. So they will start saying they need powers.

 

And whos to say even if we get a utility power that the Guardian will be picked over a Sentinel? Any utility power we receive would have to at least be as powerful as Inspiration and most likely more powerful to warrant picking the Guardian because lets say the two players are equally skilled, the Sentinel still has the higher damage ceiling. Now exacerbate the problem over multiple classes if they are granted utility powers that are equal to or more powerful than Inspiration. Content would have to be redesigned to take in account these changes.

 

Again I'm not disagreeing with you, because I agree we need something to make the ideal setup not just be Slingers/Sents. But trying to think of it from a developers standpoint, trying to do it like this sounds like a nightmare.

Edited August 10, 2013 by ArenCordial

[Riivan]

What's our questions?

[ssfish]

I don't disagree on any point. The problem is once you start giving utility powers out to us, then the devs are going to start hearing from everyone they need one for their class. Vanguards have what for utility? Harpoon? What will Shadows have to secure a spot over two Sents/Maras? Stealth? If its an enrage issue that won't help. So they will start saying they need powers.

 

And whos to say even if we get a utility power that the Guardian will be picked over a Sentinel? Any utility power we receive would have to at least be as powerful as Inspiration and most likely more powerful to warrant picking the Guardian because lets say the two players are equally skilled, the Sentinel still has the higher damage ceiling. Now exacerbate the problem over multiple classes if they are granted utility powers that are equal to or more powerful than Inspiration. Content would have to be redesigned to take in account these changes.

 

Again I'm not disagreeing with you, because I agree we need something to make the ideal setup not just be Slingers/Sents. But trying to think of it from a developers standpoint, trying to do it like this sounds like a nightmare.

 

I don't even really need to see the ideal setup change. I just want something that makes us more than Marauder-lite. This can be any number of things, honestly, but I just saw the Alacrity idea and pointed out what it could provide. Do I think it's the best option? No, probably not. But I do like the idea.

 

We have some nifty tools already, but nothing that really stands out as all that impressive in a group setting.

 

I get where you are coming from, and because of those issues, I agree that other methods of achieving this would be easier/better than giving us some kind of raid-wide buff. Most obviously, adjustments to Vigilance/Vengeance to allow more consistency would be a good place to start. Taking a bit of the random factor out of that spec would allow us to better determine where the class truly falls within the scope of DPS classes.

[Riivan]

So Sents and Scoundrels have submitted and had their questions answered. Meanwhile the Guardians just continue to debate needlessly on what how they would change things rather than what questions we want answered.

 

Let's get back to finding our 3 questions.

 

PVP:

1. Don't really pay attention to these discussions so I don't know what the questions they have are.
   

 

PVE:

1. What changes to Vigi dps to bring us in line with the top 3 or 4 dpsers and remove our heavier reliance on RNG.
   
2. Revamp of focused defense to bring it in line with other threat dropping abilities.
   
3. What sort of raid utility could they add to bring us in line with the top 3 or 4 dpsers so there is a reason to actually bring a dps guard.
   
4. Add something to the accuracy talent to provide an additional benefit for the point cost
   
5. Something to make guards hardier (compared to the Sent cd suite we're more of a pain to heal)
   

 

MISC:

1. Stance animations
   
2. Blade storm being instant
   
3. Phantom skill bug (I know this affects all classes)
   
4. Better more varied class armor (let's face it, we look dumb or not that tanky using our tier gear)