Game Continuity and coherency

[IvamAkorahil]

wanted to drop this some time ago,

 

does anybody else feel that all the "freedom stuff" from cartel markets as well as dodgy events meant to suck people into paying and etc. destroy the coherence of the game Lore ?

 

like ridiculous Gree vehicles (infact most vehicles are completely ridiculous and look out of place(besides that what in the world would the gree come back to the republic for ? Next thing the columi, then celestials maybe ? want to destroy the lore some more?)), as well as the vanishing of border between light and dark, i see jedi running around in eradicator armor, i see sith with green and blue lightsabers wearing jedi clothes or bloody trooper armors.

 

Tbh, i think this is a game-destroying coherence issue, the game feels completely mix mash, just like swg did when things like clone armors were added and the entire games time-frame went out of whack.

 

i think excessive F2P monetarization is to blame. "which is why i generaly hate f2p, apart from the fact that one spends more on it per month than on a sub based game, especialy those who cry " cant afford 12 bucks a month for the game, and spend 80 a week for cosmetic stuff" .What do you guys think ?

[drGudo]

I totally agree and /sign.

 

...as well as the vanishing of border between light and dark, i see jedi running around in eradicator armor, i see sith with green and blue lightsabers wearing jedi clothes or bloody trooper armors.

 

THIS, expecially.

Want the Eradicator, or a shiny, cool red crystal?

Dark side tier 3 at least.

 

And the same thing to do with clearly lightside/Jedi gear... It's not to be restricted by faction (even if i would do it, but maybe i'm just too lore-strict) but for sure by Dark/Light alignment.

Bioware should not ruin the lore just for an "everybody's happy" policy.

 

My 2 cents.

Edited July 25, 2013 by drGudo
edit

[Darth_Wicked]

I honestly think that people having fun and getting value from the buck they put into the game should supercede the game lore, whenever possible.

 

I would never walk around using Revan's armor but if the option is there and people want it, what's wrong with that? Again, fun first, game lore second.

[IvamAkorahil]

I honestly think that people having fun and getting value from the buck they put into the game should supercede the game lore, whenever possible.

 

I would never walk around using Revan's armor but if the option is there and people want it, what's wrong with that? Again, fun first, game lore second.

 

Wrong with it is that in turn the entire game loses visual appeal making the game a trashcan where everything has been thrown in people want, its unappealing to new and old players alike .

 

why dont we offer darth Vader armor next so we can have 50 of him on the fleet aswell

 

its the same reason you dont offer lightsabers in other mmos, because it simply does not fit in, and not fitting in counts for a whole variety of cartel market items, they are simply there because they are "cool" so people spend bucks on them. but the game suffers majorly

Edited July 25, 2013 by IvamAkorahil

[Darth_Wicked]

Wrong with it is that in turn the entire game loses visual appeal making the game a trashcan where everything has been thrown in people want, its unappealing to new and old players alike .

 

I've been playing the game since it was released in late December 2011 and I don't find unappealing. I'll assume I'm not the only one.

 

why dont we offer darth Vader armor next so we can have 50 of him on the fleet aswell

 

There are a couple of armor sets that are reminiscent enough. Either way, doubt it will happen.

 

its the same reason you dont offer lightsabers in other mmos, because it simply does not fit in, and not fitting in counts for a whole variety of cartel market items, they are simply there because they are "cool" so people spend bucks on them. but the game suffers majorly

 

Still fail to see how the game suffers majorly. The core experience is the same; Fluff has no bearing in the gameplay.

[PLynkes]

For me, the lore was ruined when Lucas decided that for whatever reason all Jedi dress like Tatooine moisture farmers, and that force-users colour-code their light sabres so you can instantly recognize them as evil or not.

 

The way everything in the original trilogy was extrapolated out into archetypes in the prequels was idiotic and moronic. Anything that can be done to break that simplistic nonsense makes Star Wars better, not worse.

[IvamAkorahil]

iam actually quite surprised by the polarized responses.

 

I personaly understand each point of view, but fail to understand how "everyone can have everything" makes for a pleasing experience. If a jedi wants to look evil roll a bloody sith, simple. Boundaries go wishy washy and there is no recollection to faction recognition.

 

I personally consider that very poor game design. The game was pleasing and lore coherent at launch, since f2p its gone down into a whatever you want randomness hole.

[PLynkes]

Trouble is, your idea of what a Sith or a Jedi should look like doesn't tally with mine, by the sounds of it. For that reason I'm particularly glad you are not in charge of this.

 

What's your definition of "look evil?" And what if you want to play out the saga of a Jedi Knight who falls to the Dark Side? (something that is perfectly possible in-game) Your advice is "go play a Sith?"

Edited July 25, 2013 by PLynkes

[KhalDylan]

wanted to drop this some time ago,

 

does anybody else feel that all the "freedom stuff" from cartel markets as well as dodgy events meant to suck people into paying and etc. destroy the coherence of the game Lore ?

 

like ridiculous Gree vehicles (infact most vehicles are completely ridiculous and look out of place(besides that what in the world would the gree come back to the republic for ? Next thing the columi, then celestials maybe ? want to destroy the lore some more?)), as well as the vanishing of border between light and dark, i see jedi running around in eradicator armor, i see sith with green and blue lightsabers wearing jedi clothes or bloody trooper armors.

 

Tbh, i think this is a game-destroying coherence issue, the game feels completely mix mash, just like swg did when things like clone armors were added and the entire games time-frame went out of whack.

 

i think excessive F2P monetarization is to blame. "which is why i generaly hate f2p, apart from the fact that one spends more on it per month than on a sub based game, especialy those who cry " cant afford 12 bucks a month for the game, and spend 80 a week for cosmetic stuff" .What do you guys think ?

 

It will only ruin YOUR game and lore experience if you let it.

 

Because it does not ruin mine.

[IvamAkorahil]

Trouble is, your idea of what a Sith or a Jedi should look like doesn't tally with mine, by the sounds of it. For that reason I'm particularly glad you are not in charge of this.

 

What's your definition of "look evil?" And what if you want to play out the saga of a Jedi Knight who falls to the Dark Side? (something that is perfectly possible in-game) Your advice is "go play a Sith?"

 

to be frank if a the game wants to compensate for a knight falling to the dark side it should allow to change the faction instead of having essentialy a sith running around the republic space station, dont you think ?

 

From my understanding having a good game is not giving everyone what they want but making a a solid basis that allows for players freedom while keeping the lore and game itself coherent. SWG as an example allowed you to change the faction and class if you desire to play your role that way. SWTOR sadly doesnt, it allows for having a darksider on the republic or a lightsider on the empire side, what is missing is the possibility to switch over, to substitute that the designer allows everyone to wear anything despite lore content. Yes sith do not all look like darth malgus but sufficient to say a good 95% do. the other 5% are logical and lore wise more likely to be outcasts.

 

With coherence i also mean cause and reaction aswell as logic. A sith may aswell dress himself like a Jedi, it is very unlikely tho that lore wise other sith would tolerate this and demand him to "proudly" wear the armors and etc the empire supplies instead of going on a fancy jedi trip.

 

SWTOR does not support such coherence sadly but instead ampliefies the peoples need to be special snowflakes and use the latest and most weird looking additions to the game and thus creating some very unlogical and lore corrupting results.

[Path-x]

Well I agree. Putting in Revan's and Malak's armour and stuff like that is purely for them to keep people playing and make profit. Let's not forget this is a MMO. It is a lot easier to put in some well-known armour than making new story based content. Now I think anything end-game/PVE related should be automatically ignored when it comes to lore. If one wants the untainted/perfect Star Wars experience he/she should just do the class storyline and stop playing when hits lvl50. The more you interact with other players the less it feels like you in the Star Wars universe.

 

As for Eradicator armour, seeing how this was like standard issue for Sith warriors (Hope, Deceived trailers), it should be given to your Sith character after you complete the trails at the Sith academy. It is just ridiculous how they kept it away from the game so long. Same goes for imperial officer uniform and agent.

Edited July 25, 2013 by Path-x

[IvamAkorahil]

It will only ruin YOUR game and lore experience if you let it.

 

Because it does not ruin mine.

 

that does sound likesomebody who simply got used to it over time.

 

I personally cannot comprehend why oh why we have gree traveling spheres as vehicles ? it makes no sense lore wise, it makes no sense game-play wise, its for making money and every time i see one of those funky vehicles or a jedi wearing sith clothing or vice versa my eyes bleed and it tells me that this is getting less and less star wars the old republic. and more a free for all anarchy fest without any game boundaries. Why? because the players get milked for money from a failed game that has a tiny remaining development team and is in no way capable of pushing out proper game design or content or revamps of faulty designs in any time soon.

 

i guess its dealing with it untill hopefuly in 8 or 10 years swtor gets replaced by something better, hopefully with someone who takes lore more to heart than flash sales on a cartel market

 

If bioware/ea had spent the last 1 1/2 years on proper content and game mechanics (chat bubbles for example ?????) instead of panicking because the release version was crap they would have a respectable game by now that would even as a subscriber model earn enough money to legitimate continuous work on it instead of destorying yet another star wars mmo making us wait yet another decade for the next attempt at actualy producing something useful for long term gameplay.

 

I simply cant believe the mass of people who tolerates it or is okay with it instead of realizing how crap this system is.

Edited July 25, 2013 by IvamAkorahil

[IvamAkorahil]

Well I agree. Putting in Revan's and Malak's armour and stuff like that is purely for them to keep people playing and make profit.

 

Exactly, it breaks the lore immensely, there is only one armor of revan and malak, revan had one and malak had one, thats it, there are no mass production versions of these and thus it does make sense to see dozens of people run around with it. same goes for nihilus mask, miras jacket ETC ETC ETC

[VitalityPrime]

I totally agree and /sign.

 

 

 

THIS, expecially.

Want the Eradicator, or a shiny, cool red crystal?

Dark side tier 3 at least.

 

And the same thing to do with clearly lightside/Jedi gear... It's not to be restricted by faction (even if i would do it, but maybe i'm just too lore-strict) but for sure by Dark/Light alignment.

Bioware should not ruin the lore just for an "everybody's happy" policy.

 

My 2 cents.

 

That is absurd.

 

Being a Jedi...or being on the path of light has absolutely nothing to do with what you wear.

 

It's about what you do.

Edited July 25, 2013 by VitalityPrime

[Seireeni]

I don't like the way you think. You seem to assume that everyone on the Republic side must be good and everyone on the imperial side must be evil. If your jedi is evil, the jedi should defect. If your sith is good, the sith should defect. But imo I have republic characters that are not symphatatic to the Empire, but rather want to win the war/get the job done, no matter the costs. I also have a jugg in light V who's a big imperial patriot. She think the Empire has it's flaws (she's an alien after all, she knows how they can be treated) but wants to make Empire treat it's citizens better instead of destroying it.

 

Also, if you want to rp as i.e. mandalorian with a sword, you have no option but to roll a jugg. Or maybe your guardian is a little overprotective and doesn't feel comfortable in jedi robes in the middle of a warzone and decides to put on some protective armor - trooper pieces, to be exact. Forcing these examples to wear class-appropriate clothing would limit their tools to rp their characters, and I have to say I'm against that.

 

Also, if something is lore-breaking, it's imo all those people in slave girl/dancer outfits...and all those companions too. If I was in jedi council, I'd give a pretty long and judgemental look to a jedi who makes his padawan wear a slave girl outfit. But hey, they can also used on rp purposes, so keep them. Maybe your jedi wants to be underestimated by his enemies or your imperial agent is ready to go undercover as a slave girl...

[psandak]

that does sound likesomebody who simply got used to it over time.

 

I personally cannot comprehend why oh why we have gree traveling spheres as vehicles ? it makes no sense lore wise, it makes no sense game-play wise, its for making money and every time i see one of those funky vehicles or a jedi wearing sith clothing or vice versa my eyes bleed and it tells me that this is getting less and less star wars the old republic. and more a free for all anarchy fest without any game boundaries. Why? because the players get milked for money from a failed game that has a tiny remaining development team and is in no way capable of pushing out proper game design or content or revamps of faulty designs in any time soon.

 

i guess its dealing with it untill hopefuly in 8 or 10 years swtor gets replaced by something better, hopefully with someone who takes lore more to heart than flash sales on a cartel market

 

If bioware/ea had spent the last 1 1/2 years on proper content and game mechanics (chat bubbles for example ?????) instead of panicking because the release version was crap they would have a respectable game by now that would even as a subscriber model earn enough money to legitimate continuous work on it instead of destorying yet another star wars mmo making us wait yet another decade for the next attempt at actualy producing something useful for long term gameplay.

 

I simply cant believe the mass of people who tolerates it or is okay with it instead of realizing how crap this system is.

 

I understand and appreciate what you are getting at, and I too cringe when I see things like the gree vehicles and armor and the blatant Christmas stuff. That being said, I also know that the "lore" is not set in durasteel. Yes, according to the movies and the TV shows things should look and feel a certain way. But even in the "official lore" there are numerous exceptions - too many to list here. And we as characters in the story are supposed to be those exceptions.

 

That is why I "tolerate" the non-adherence to the "lore."

[IvamAkorahil]

I understand and appreciate what you are getting at, and I too cringe when I see things like the gree vehicles and armor and the blatant Christmas stuff. That being said, I also know that the "lore" is not set in durasteel. Yes, according to the movies and the TV shows things should look and feel a certain way. But even in the "official lore" there are numerous exceptions - too many to list here. And we as characters in the story are supposed to be those exceptions.

 

That is why I "tolerate" the non-adherence to the "lore."

 

wouldn't you agree tho that to be an exception in the overall picture and being special, you would need a main body to represent a certain image first that you can be special in ? As in, how can one be special if the current normality is that everyone is special. Being special should be from extraordinary deeds, not extraordinary clothing that you can only buy for extraordinary amounts of cash.

 

Nobody argues that there allways are certaine exceptions , Gray jedi or Sith who strive for something else than the dark council, but in general these should indeed be exceptions and not the norm. And Lore wise these would not be associated with the main body of the faction they adhere to. For example you would never have a "good" sith being a member of the Dark council, not mentioning the emperors wrath as it in nature contradicts "goodness"

nor would you have an evil jedi actualy still work for the jedi order or the republic. They would renounce their adherence to the earlier regime and find their own path and thus be special in between the factions and systems. This however is not possible in the game mechanics and as thus it must be prevented to ensure a coherent image of the actual game story and lore. Things that are completely implausible should not be included into an existing lore simply for the fact of pleasing everyone or making a tad extra cash. And a Dark Jedi, in all his freedom to be one, is implausible to be allowed to continue being part of the Jedi order. He cannot be cast out in game, therefor it cannot be allowed to be visualy possible, if the person wishes to roleplay it in their own mind thats enitrely their thing, but it should not be displayable the way it is at the moment, in form of eradicators armor on a jedi for example because it does not make sense, is implausible and would never ever be possible or happening in the existing lore coherence. Thats what it is about and not essentialy about taking peoples freedom to be what they want. But the game mechanics must support it at the same time to allow for coherence, you cant have one without the other and expect to have a pleasing and appealing environment to everybody. And keeping the lore clean is essential considerable pleasing to everybody because thats how everybody knows the lore to begin with.

 

oh btw, dont even get me started on that ewok companion. if swtor wasnt the ONLY sw mmo, it would be a quit reason to me. You cant pack less credibility in lore coherence than an 50 ewoks running around the fleet in the ToR era.

Edited July 25, 2013 by IvamAkorahil

[Master-Nala]

OP, serious question.

 

What would stop a Jedi from wearing all black. Or using a red lightsaber? Frankly, I find it much more problematic that Bounty Hunters can make a jet pack and shoulder launcher appear from a bra and panty set.

[PLynkes]

You should have a word with that young Skywalker fellow. Entering Jabba's palace in a black hooded cloak, and all-black fatigues. Dressing like a flaming Sith! He obviously got all that gear from the Cartel Market. It really ruins my immersion to see him breaking lore like that.

 

Doesn't he know that all Jedi dress like Uncle Owen, in Tatooine robes?

Edited July 25, 2013 by PLynkes

[IvamAkorahil]

OP, serious question.

 

What would stop a Jedi from wearing all black. Or using a red lightsaber? Frankly, I find it much more problematic that Bounty Hunters can make a jet pack and shoulder launcher appear from a bra and panty set.

 

I never said they should be stopped from wearing a black robe or a red lightsaber, ima well aware of that fact that during the prequels Adi Gallia was using a red saber, but that is also an exception if you compare to how manu blue/green/yellow saber colours are used by jedi in the order, iam also aware that for example Exar Kun used a blue DB saber. However the focus is on exception of the norm, Black robes on a jedi i dont see violating the lore either, but wearing the main armor of the sith warriors during the sacking of coruscant as a jedi that is quite out of order and would not be plausible.

 

I think alot of you do get me wrong, i do not try to stipulate a stereotype image of what a sith or jedi is supposed to be or wear. What i do stipulat eis that it is above all also important to keep a coherent look for the factions. otherwise they vanish and become utterly unimportant, even more so than they allready are. It is hardly possible to identify yourself properly with the current factions as it is.

[psandak]

wouldn't you agree tho that to be an exception in the overall picture and being special, you would need a main body to represent a certain image first that you can be special in ? As in, how can one be special if the current normality is that everyone is special. Being special should be from extraordinary deeds, not extraordinary clothing that you can only buy for extraordinary amounts of cash.

 

Honestly, that is the "cost" of playing an MMO. If you were to play the level 1-50 game solo you would be that exception to the rule; your actions would make you unique in the galaxy. But because this is an MMO, you are interacting (passively or actively) with a population that has characters that have experienced the exact same exploits as your characters. The only way to have one's deeds make them extraordinary would be to establish some sort of quest randomizer whereby no two characters of any one class has the exact same story. But let's be honest, that is just not feasible.

 

that being said, there is a level of player base control that can be implemented. there are a number of guilds on RP servers that expressly prohibit one from using the "class story" as part of a player character's story. They acknowledge that A JK defeats the emperor, that A smuggler deals with the Voidwolf, that A bounty hunter won the great hunt, etc etc etc, but that their JK/smuggler/bounty hunter, did no such thing. And maybe there are similar RP guilds that enforce "lore appropriate attire" and only blue and green crystals can be used by Jedi and only red can be used by Sith, etc etc etc.

 

IMO, this is not a problem that needs solving through game mechanics, but through players who think like you getting together and coming to an understanding that there are certain "rules of lore" that need to be maintained. Like I said in a thread regarding immersion, IMO MMORPGs are a poor instrument of immersion - the best is a table top RPG where a small group can be as immersed in lore as they see fit.

[Jenzali]

It doesn't matter how other people dress. You can just choose not to RP with them.

 

As far as restricting things by alignment, I'm happy that was finally removed. For god's sake my dark I Jedi was not even be able to use a blue lightsaber crystal, the iconic color of the Jedi.

 

Furthermore, just because someone dark-aligned does not mean they are Sith or support the Empire. Same with light-aligned and Jedi/Republic.

Edited July 25, 2013 by Jenzali

[Master-Nala]

I never said they should be stopped from wearing a black robe or a red lightsaber, ima well aware of that fact that during the prequels Adi Gallia was using a red saber, but that is also an exception if you compare to how manu blue/green/yellow saber colours are used by jedi in the order, iam also aware that for example Exar Kun used a blue DB saber. However the focus is on exception of the norm, Black robes on a jedi i dont see violating the lore either, but wearing the main armor of the sith warriors during the sacking of coruscant as a jedi that is quite out of order and would not be plausible.

 

I think alot of you do get me wrong, i do not try to stipulate a stereotype image of what a sith or jedi is supposed to be or wear. What i do stipulat eis that it is above all also important to keep a coherent look for the factions. otherwise they vanish and become utterly unimportant, even more so than they allready are. It is hardly possible to identify yourself properly with the current factions as it is.

 

This is the contention I reject. There is not, nor should there be a "coherent look" for the factions. Only the Trooper and Imperial Agent are members of the military in the game. And the IA are undercover most of the time. There is simply NO reason that makes sense to me to restrict clothes in any form.

 

Like I said regarding the bounty hunter, I could see a requirement that you have a jet pack chestpiece to use death from above, but other than that, I'm in the live and let live camp, because you know....it's just clothes.

[theUndead]

iam actually quite surprised by the polarized responses.

 

I personaly understand each point of view, but fail to understand how "everyone can have everything" makes for a pleasing experience. If a jedi wants to look evil roll a bloody sith, simple. Boundaries go wishy washy and there is no recollection to faction recognition.

 

I personally consider that very poor game design. The game was pleasing and lore coherent at launch, since f2p its gone down into a whatever you want randomness hole.

 

I'm sorry but what your describing is your own issues with game design but it does not represent others. MMOs attract so many different types of players and this one is no different. For example people like to play dress up or RP, do operations and PVP. All different. Therefore if people are happy than the lore doesn't matter too much. You can't go out and say that just because you think it's poor game desgn everyone plays the game they want to.

 

Finally it is really subjective to say how a Jedi or Sith should look like that in of itself is nothing more than an opinion but not a fact.

[drGudo]

That is absurd.

 

Being a Jedi...or being on the path of light has absolutely nothing to do with what you wear.

 

It's about what you do.

 

Have you ever see a Jedi wearing black robes or using red crystal on the lightsaber?

On the expanded universe.

No, and it's not because of some Jedi's fashion thing.

 

Apart from Jedi's philosopy which is totally OT here, we're talking about LORE.

So being a lightside Jedi wearing Eradicator and red crystal is ok, lore-wise?

This is absurd.