Lium Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 These threads always crack me up. They are basically saying, "I miss the days when MMOs sucked." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CosmicKat Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 These threads always crack me up. They are basically saying, "I miss the days when MMOs sucked." If by "sucked" you mean... could keep the interest of hundreds of thousands of players for years, then yeah. TOR lost 75-90% of its subscribers in the first few months and now, literally, is only "successful" (ie. still running) because they give away the game for free. Oh, and they are reportedly the second most popular MMO running in the West! Yes, clearly everything to do with the modern MMO is going swimmingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlrikFassbauer Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 I'm coming from pen & paper RPG -> Adventure games & offline (partially "old school") RPGs -> MMORPGs From my perspective, I don't understand why some in-game things like "grinding" are implemented at all. Offline gaming - at least where I come from - doesn't have any grinding. It has story instead. I'm not sure about it, but to me it looks as if Blizzard brought grinding into offline gaming. I don't know in how far grinding existed in offline games before that and where they might have taken it from. I go back every now and then to my favourite offline games - simply because there is story. At least within those that I love to play. Even worse, Adventure games have even nothing but story - and riddles. And I don't mean Action-Adventures. From that perspective, I just don't understand this "I'm going to call AAA MMOs "barbie MMOs" thing at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vandicus Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 TOR lost 75-90% of its subscribers in the first few months and now Didn't realize we had between 2 million and 5 million subscribers at one point. Wait the first few months? You mean we had between 4 million and 10 million? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lunafox Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 I love getting new clothes, and new vehicles. I find having nice things to be fun, even if the process of earning the cash isn't so much so. That said, I would like to see more 'sandbox' elements here....I'd like to have player housing and the ability to furnish it, like on SWG. Also building your own ships would be fun too. I loved SWG, even if my time was brief there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bojangle Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 (edited) I am so much with you! I so miss the days, before WoW ruined the genre, back when there was no stupid instancing, when conflicts were still settled within the community, when open world PvP still existed and when raiding meant going to the enemy and smash their head in. Back in the days, when dying actually had a penalty and there was no group finder. When people were actually playing together instead of on the same server. Oh how I miss those AAA MMOs. Oh you did not mean that? Silly me then. Yeah WoW really ruined the genre with their great game and made a mmo that they wanted. It is sooo their fault 13 mil people liked the game and subbed to it. I didn't know Blizzard was the president of mmo's and had to be done their way. Maybe another company make a mmo with THEIR OWN vision and not copy WoW then? Blizzard was able to take some features of other mmo's but make it into how they wanted then added other things along with great devs who had great skills and made some amazing end game raids. It's not WoW's fault other companies can't come up with their own mmo that can generate a population like that. Instead of cloning it maybe take some of the good things about it and make it their own and add some new things and have creative people who maybe can have good stories and end game raid designs. But yeah it is all WoW's fault. On a side note I think ToR did a pretty good job of making their own mmo. Very story driven and the end game was pretty good. Just way to short and easy. Plus not making a mmo about goblins and elves and swords and bows helped too along with the name, but still. That is why I still play this with WoW because it is a different kind of mmo to me. Edited July 24, 2013 by Bojangle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CosmicKat Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 Didn't realize we had between 2 million and 5 million subscribers at one point. Wait the first few months? You mean we had between 4 million and 10 million? According to BW's own statements (if you read between the PR hype) we had somewhere around 2.5 million at launch and when it bottomed out pre-CM, we were at less than 500k, with the inference that it was way below 500k. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlrikFassbauer Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 (edited) Maybe another company make a mmo with THEIR OWN vision and not copy WoW then? Problem ist : No-one will do it. Everyone is following the trail of money - and the trail of money is called "wow clone". Because Blizzard made such an insane amount of profits with their games. Because of that, everyone copies. Superiors don't like "own visions". Publishers don't like new IPs : Far too much risk nowadays. Like what happened with the 10.000 Blizzard Action-RPG clones - and no-one buying games that are off this track (Skyrim is the only exception to this). Edited July 24, 2013 by AlrikFassbauer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vandicus Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 According to BW's own statements (if you read between the PR hype) we had somewhere around 2.5 million at launch and when it bottomed out pre-CM, we were at less than 500k, with the inference that it was way below 500k. 2.4 million sales, 1.7 million subs(and since no other company in MMOs has ever measured sub loss against box sales rather than subscribers, I don't see why we should here either). You made the inference that we were way below 500k. Moreover your statement about the first few months is in itself inaccurate, as we dropped below 1 million around early August, which is over half a year after the game had launched. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CosmicKat Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 2.4 million sales, 1.7 million subs(and since no other company in MMOs has ever measured sub loss against box sales rather than subscribers, I don't see why we should here either). You made the inference that we were way below 500k. Moreover your statement about the first few months is in itself inaccurate, as we dropped below 1 million around early August, which is over half a year after the game had launched. Their own statements after the CM launch indicated they had somewhere around 250k subs prior to CM launch. The subs plus CM revenue equated to roughly the equivalent of 500k subs, or their stated break even point. Whatever you want to believe, if TOR were a movie it would be Waterworld. Lots of people saw it, but compared to its budget, not nearly enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lium Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 If by "sucked" you mean... could keep the interest of hundreds of thousands of players for years, then yeah. TOR lost 75-90% of its subscribers in the first few months and now, literally, is only "successful" (ie. still running) because they give away the game for free. Oh, and they are reportedly the second most popular MMO running in the West! Yes, clearly everything to do with the modern MMO is going swimmingly. No, by suck I mean back when MMOs were a small niche market that window-dressed needless timesinks as progression. Nothing like taking forever to form a group for something, running around creation to turn in quests, and losing XP - and sometimes all your stuff - when you died. There's a reason all of that was changed over the years. People just remember things through rose-colored glasses. There are two games off the top of my head that have changed very little from the early days of MMOs. Those games are Eve Online and Darkfall. They are sandbox and they are hardcore and they have severe penalties for dying. And if you don't make friends, you won't survive. Why aren't you guys over there? This is a themepark MMO and I can't understand why people make threads pining for more sandbox games when these other sandbox games clearly exist. They give you exactly what you claim to want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vandicus Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 Their own statements after the CM launch indicated they had somewhere around 250k subs prior to CM launch. The subs plus CM revenue equated to roughly the equivalent of 500k subs, or their stated break even point. Whatever you want to believe, if TOR were a movie it would be Waterworld. Lots of people saw it, but compared to its budget, not nearly enough. Source? I've seen them say just below 500k prior to f2p, but nothing like 250k. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callaron Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 Problem ist : No-one will do it. BS, there are plenty of games out there that don't copy WoW. TERA, TSW and most of all EVE. The upcoming ArcheAge will be a completely different beasty too, and I suspect World of Darkness will be as well - if/when it finally sees the light of day. The problem is that most don't hit the big time the way WoW did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamansus Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 Source? I've seen them say just below 500k prior to f2p, but nothing like 250k. I wouldn't wait for it, because that source doesn't exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordArtemis Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 Seriously I could not care less about getting my Jedi a new Outfit.... or a flashy new Car. ...then you are now part of the traditionalist/hardcore playerbase and that playergroup is now the minority in the market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bojangle Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 Problem ist : No-one will do it. Everyone is following the trail of money - and the trail of money is called "wow clone". Because Blizzard made such an insane amount of profits with their games. Because of that, everyone copies. Superiors don't like "own visions". Publishers don't like new IPs : Far too much risk nowadays. Like what happened with the 10.000 Blizzard Action-RPG clones - and no-one buying games that are off this track (Skyrim is the only exception to this). I agree with you on that, or at least so far it shows, but how is it Blizzards fault? People who keep blaming them for how mmo's are today always cracks me up. Blizzard isn't telling these other companies how to make their game. I will say ESO might be a different type of game being it looks like it will be in fp mode like their console games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CosmicKat Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 Source? I've seen them say just below 500k prior to f2p, but nothing like 250k. All they officially said was "less than 500k". That, and the CM revenue plus sub revenue equated to around the equivalent of 500k subscribers they said. They also said the CM doubled their revenue stream so... you do the math. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CosmicKat Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 No, by suck I mean back when MMOs were a small niche market that window-dressed needless timesinks as progression. Nothing like taking forever to form a group for something, running around creation to turn in quests, and losing XP - and sometimes all your stuff - when you died. There's a reason all of that was changed over the years. People just remember things through rose-colored glasses. There are two games off the top of my head that have changed very little from the early days of MMOs. Those games are Eve Online and Darkfall. They are sandbox and they are hardcore and they have severe penalties for dying. And if you don't make friends, you won't survive. Why aren't you guys over there? This is a themepark MMO and I can't understand why people make threads pining for more sandbox games when these other sandbox games clearly exist. They give you exactly what you claim to want. MMO's are still and always will be a niche market. It's a complete myth that they are anything but. Take WoW and EQ out of the equation and you are left with a list of failed and break-even games. Two highly successful games in 20 years of MMO's does not a mainstream entertainment phenomenon make. Nobody has ever said the oldschool MMO's were perfect. They had major issues as well. The developers of all MMO's have just swung way too far to the console, button-mash model of gaming and then they act shocked that their shiney new MMO's have the longevity of a button-mashing console game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basreia Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 If they are barbie mmos, then where's my dreamhouse? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vandicus Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 All they officially said was "less than 500k". That, and the CM revenue plus sub revenue equated to around the equivalent of 500k subscribers they said. They also said the CM doubled their revenue stream so... you do the math. Source for that statement? http://www.gamespot.com/news/the-old-republic-monthly-revenue-has-doubled-since-free-to-play-switch-6408053 Subscribers were just under 500k according to the most recent numbers given. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basreia Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 Why is it such a competition to see how big sub numbers are for a lot of people who play mmos? I never understood that. Do they just want to boast about how "their" game is better than the other guys? Or is it the fact you just want to feel good you are playing the "best game ever" because the sub numbers are highest of any game? As long as the game at hand is making money, that's all that matters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaisernick Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 Nobody cares what you call the games as long as they keep selling... and people keep buying. I call CoD games noob-shooters... i have called them that for many years now (all the way back since CoD 2) but that still wont stop people from buying them. But it does stop me from buying them, and i wont go on their forums and whine about it either... lol i call them ****-shooters but i do agree if u do get sick of triple mmos then the only choice is dont buy them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 Source for that statement? http://www.gamespot.com/news/the-old-republic-monthly-revenue-has-doubled-since-free-to-play-switch-6408053 Subscribers were just under 500k according to the most recent numbers given. Indeed. Then again.. proper use of facts has never constrained CKs attacks upon EA and the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callaron Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 (edited) MMO's are still and always will be a niche market. It's a complete myth that they are anything but. Take WoW and EQ out of the equation and you are left with a list of failed and break-even games. Two highly successful games in 20 years of MMO's does not a mainstream entertainment phenomenon make. Nobody has ever said the oldschool MMO's were perfect. They had major issues as well. The developers of all MMO's have just swung way too far to the console, button-mash model of gaming and then they act shocked that their shiney new MMO's have the longevity of a button-mashing console game. It's not that "niche" anymore, and game development companies know it. Take a look at what these guys have to say for example. (starts around 3:20 in the video) "Online gaming is one of the fastest growing segments of the entertainment industry." In case you can't be bothered with the video - and that is from the developers of an MMO, before you make some comment about Facebook games and mobile apps. Add up all the people that are playing MMO's world wide, including those that are playing the countless F2P MMO's out there - and you've got enough people to fill a not so small country. There is a reason that even developers that used to focus on single player RPGs are trying to claim a piece of the pie for themselves - Bioware and Bethesda being some of the newer players on the market. Edited July 25, 2013 by Callaron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 (edited) It's not that "niche" anymore, and game development companies know it. Take a look at what these guys have to say for example. (starts around 3:20 in the video) "Online gaming is one of the fastest growing segments of the entertainment industry." In case you can't be bothered with the video - and that is from the developers of an MMO, before you make some comment about Facebook games and mobile apps. Add up all the people that are playing MMO's world wide, including those that are playing the countless F2P MMO's out there - and you've got enough people to fill a not so small country. There is a reason that even developers that used to focus on single player RPGs are trying to claim a piece of the pie for themselves - Bioware and Bethesda being some of the newer players on the market. I would say in the West, as a fraction of the total game player market, yeah.. it is niche. Now.. in Asia.. not so niche. MMOs are quite popular there... but still I think mobile games are going to dwarf MMOs in Asia over time. Edited July 25, 2013 by Andryah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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