Let's get this thing straight.

[Beniboybling]

See..... No.

 

That's not how they were treated, Jedi would selflessly risk themselves to save clones.

Plo Koon wouldn't let the clones in his pod die in the Abreggado system, Yoda would have been Far more nimble and able in the Forest on the moon of Toydaria if he hadn't wanted his clones to survive...

 

Whereas droids? Their Supreme-General literally smacks their heads off

 

I dont agree with the notion the clones were free men, I sit in the middle, but you can't say they were treated as droids.

I meant in the most basic sense. They are mass produced for the sole purpose of war, they are expendable. Don't expect me to pat the Jedi on the back for respecting their most basic human rights. Bravo Jedi you are still in touch with whatever scrap of morality you still hold, bravo.

[MasqureMan]

That is indeed true, but the Republic moreso than the jedi treated them as such. Just faceless disposable units they could use to win the war.

 

And the Jedi merely stood there, took command of the troops as Generals and raised little to no moral objection to the treatment of their men. And they were men. I mean hell, even the enhanced aging process I feel was a crime against them.

 

The Republic did treat them that way, from what we saw. We have no idea what discussions took place in the Senate and I admittedly have never read a straight up clone perspective book other than the parts of "Dark Lord: Rise of Darth Vader" and the "Revenge of the Sith" novel, but the fact is the Jedi were sworn to the Republic which is why they joined the war: to protect it. It was pretty clear they didn't agree with the war itself or using the clones, but they were there so they used them.

 

I think I would view it differently if I didn't know that Palpatine orchestrated the entire thing to destroy the Jedi, but I'm just not about to blame them for being the losers in every way possible. If anyone was in that war together, it was the Jedi and the Clones, probably even more than the Jedi and the Republic.

 

Look at it from the Jedi perspective: A war has started, some clones were created for this purpose and, even if you don't agree with it, they are the best method of fighting the war near-immediately instead of taking months/years to train and build an army while the droids are already marching on Republic territory. The resistance would have been Jedi and whatever forces each planet had available at the time, which would have led to a lot more losses on the Republic side. Plus, there's always the risk that if you don't use the clones, the Seperatists might find a way to claim them against you as well, and then you'd have no chance.

 

It was not an ideal Jedi situation and their morals are fair to question for it, but I'm never going to view them as slavers or the Clones as slaves. It's just not there for me.

Edited July 25, 2013 by MasqureMan

[Beniboybling]

Look at it from the Jedi perspective: A war has started, some clones were created for this purpose and, even if you don't agree with it, they are the best method of fighting the war near-immediately instead of taking months/years to train and build an army while the droids are already marching on Republic territory. The resistance would have been Jedi and whatever forces each planet had available at the time, which would have led to a lot more losses on the Republic side. Plus, there's always the risk that if you don't use the clones, the Seperatists might find a way to claim them against you as well, and then you'd have no chance.

 

It was not an ideal Jedi situation and their morals are fair to question for it, but I'm never going to view them as slavers or the Clones as slaves. It's just not there for me.

The end does not always justify the means.

[MasqureMan]

The end does not always justify the means.

 

Right, but it's the whole "You want the truth? You can't handle the truth!" situation. It's easy to judge generals (which works out here since that was the Jedi's title) in wars for their decisions, but they have to make the choices everyday people would be too uncomfortable or squeamish to properly execute. If the decision was between using "slave" clones that were ready and waiting or taking a much longer time getting together an army and risking the Republic, then the decision they would make is clear. It may not be the "right" decision in your mind, but the alternative is innocent civilians forming a resistance and fighting and dying while the Republic organized and drafted an army, and the Jedi weren't going to let that happen if they could avoid it.

[Beniboybling]

Right, but it's the whole "You want the truth? You can't handle the truth!" situation. It's easy to judge generals (which works out here since that was the Jedi's title) in wars for their decisions, but they have to make the choices everyday people would be too uncomfortable or squeamish to properly execute. If the decision was between using "slave" clones that were ready and waiting or taking a much longer time getting together an army and risking the Republic, then the decision they would make is clear. It may not be the "right" decision in your mind, but the alternative is innocent civilians forming a resistance and fighting and dying while the Republic organized and drafted an army, and the Jedi weren't going to let that happen if they could avoid it.

I disagree, the Jedi are supposedly protectors of peace. So they rush into a political war with a slave army at the word go? Should not negotiating peace have been the primary objective of the Jedi? Sure the Separatists were being led by a Sith Lord - but that's one man. The entire Separatist organisation were not evil, they just had different political ideals.

 

But did the Jedi, supposed peacekeepers, ever attempt to negotiate peace? No they rushed straight of into war - playing right into Sidious' hands. Once again the Jedi's narrow-minded, dogmatic ideals are their undoing.

[Selenial]

I disagree, the Jedi are supposedly protectors of peace. So they rush into a political war with a slave army at the word go? Should not negotiating peace have been the primary objective of the Jedi? Sure the Separatists were being led by a Sith Lord - but that's one man. The entire Separatist organisation were not evil, they just had different political ideals.

 

But did the Jedi, supposed peacekeepers, ever attempt to negotiate peace? No they rushed straight of into war - playing right into Sidious' hands. Once again the Jedi's narrow-minded, dogmatic ideals are their undoing.

 

That's a very one-sided view....

The Confederacy of Independent Systems was a part of the Republic before the war, the Jedi & Republic had been attempting to negotiate peace for some time.

You have to remember the way the war started. The CIS captured a Senator and two Jedi, and tried to have them executed by 3 beasts.

Followed by the horrible mass slaughter of many Jedi...

I agree they could have, and should have been more cautious, but in the end, you can't blame them.

[Beniboybling]

That's a very one-sided view....

The Confederacy of Independent Systems was a part of the Republic before the war, the Jedi & Republic had been attempting to negotiate peace for some time.

You have to remember the way the war started. The CIS captured a Senator and two Jedi, and tried to have them executed by 3 beasts.

Followed by the horrible mass slaughter of many Jedi...

I agree they could have, and should have been more cautious, but in the end, you can't blame them.

That is not the case, peace was never negotiated in terms of independence. The Republic never accepted the independence of the Separatists and instead tried to keep them in the Republic's folds, the Jedi only helped them.

 

Regardless, Jedi should be above 'who started it' - instead they should have tried to end the conflict. They failed to even try. Instead they decided it would be a better idea to lead an army of slaves into to battle leading to the deaths of countless lives. And for what? What good would the defeat of the Separatists have brought? An end to any possible chance of corruption and greed in the galaxy from being stomped out?

 

Really the Jedi failed, serious, major, epic fail. But I guess that's nothing knew for them.

Edited July 26, 2013 by Beniboybling

[LadyKulvax]

Except anyone who's read the novels between TPM and AOTC will know that the Jedi sent ambassadors to all sorts of worlds that were thinking of leaving the Republic, they tried extremely hard to convince different representatives of organizations and those of worlds to remain with the Republic.

 

Come Geonosis not only had they uncovered the fact that the CIS has been building an enormous droid army, but they had also had their very morals undermined ten years beforehand by Sifo Dyas whom uncovered the Sith's plot and without permission ordered the Clone army from the Kaminoans.

 

By this point it was entirely out-of-hand as they had no power to stop the Supreme Chancellor whom ordered the war to carry on, negotiations were thrown out entirely, throughout the Clone Wars the Jedi repeatedly attempted to convince the Chancellor to stop the war, obviously, the Supreme Chancellor being who he is dismissed these requests.

[Beniboybling]

Except anyone who's read the novels between TPM and AOTC will know that the Jedi sent ambassadors to all sorts of worlds that were thinking of leaving the Republic, they tried extremely hard to convince different representatives of organizations and those of worlds to remain with the Republic.

 

Come Geonosis not only had they uncovered the fact that the CIS has been building an enormous droid army, but they had also had their very morals undermined ten years beforehand by Sifo Dyas whom uncovered the Sith's plot and without permission ordered the Clone army from the Kaminoans.

 

By this point it was entirely out-of-hand as they had no power to stop the Supreme Chancellor whom ordered the war to carry on, negotiations were thrown out entirely, throughout the Clone Wars the Jedi repeatedly attempted to convince the Chancellor to stop the war, obviously, the Supreme Chancellor being who he is dismissed these requests.

Well that's what I said. The Jedi attempted to keep the Separatists within the folds of the Republic, when in reality they should have respected their position and let when secede. Is there not enough room in the galaxy for Republic and Separatists to coexist?

 

Anyway I agree that stopping the war from starting in the first place (at least at that point) was nigh impossible with the Sith pulling the strings, and stopping the war after that even more difficult. But I can't see much evidence of the Jedi attempting to negotiate peace. They made an active choice to fight, they didn't have to do that.

[LadyKulvax]

Well that's what I said. The Jedi attempted to keep the Separatists within the folds of the Republic, when in reality they should have respected their position and let when secede. Is there not enough room in the galaxy for Republic and Separatists to coexist?

 

Anyway I agree that stopping the war from starting in the first place (at least at that point) was nigh impossible with the Sith pulling the strings, and stopping the war after that even more difficult. But I can't see much evidence of the Jedi attempting to negotiate peace. They made an active choice to fight, they didn't have to do that.

 

Well they obviously knew the Sith were behind this plot and with the arrival of 'Dark Jedi' like Asajj Ventress, Count Dooku and those like General Grievous, they had no choice but to help the war effort, lets face it, without the Jedi the Clone Wars would have been a CIS victory.

[Beniboybling]

Well they obviously knew the Sith were behind this plot and with the arrival of 'Dark Jedi' like Asajj Ventress, Count Dooku and those like General Grievous, they had no choice but to help the war effort, lets face it, without the Jedi the Clone Wars would have been a CIS victory.

But lets remember this:

 

The Trade Federation, the Banking Clan, all the greedy corporations, as well as the Sith and their minions were for the war continuing. So surely it would be in the Jedi's best interests to put an end to the war? Peace would have brought the Grand Plan to a juddering halt, and with the support of both the Republic and the Separatists the Jedi could undermine Dooku's position and neutralise him.

 

Yes of course the Jedi weren't aware of the full extent of the Grand Plan but they must have realised that the Separatists and the Sith are not in this case one in the same, they can be separated. The Separatists only pursued war at Dooku's lead, in reality they just want independence - peace was therefore in the Jedi's best interests.

[LadyKulvax]

But lets remember this:

 

The Trade Federation, the Banking Clan, all the greedy corporations, as well as the Sith and their minions were for the war continuing. So surely it would be in the Jedi's best interests to put an end to the war? Peace would have brought the Grand Plan to a juddering halt, and with the support of both the Republic and the Separatists the Jedi could undermine Dooku's position and neutralise him.

 

Yes of course the Jedi weren't aware of the full extent of the Grand Plan but they must have realised that the Separatists and the Sith are not in this case one in the same, they can be separated. The Separatists only pursued war at Dooku's lead, in reality they just want independence - peace was therefore in the Jedi's best interests.

Except they all clearly obeyed the Dark Lord seemingly in the shadows down to a T and they talked pretty extensively about being the dominant power in the universe, what with their super droid armies and all of that.

[Selenial]

But lets remember this:

 

The Trade Federation, the Banking Clan, all the greedy corporations, as well as the Sith and their minions were for the war continuing. So surely it would be in the Jedi's best interests to put an end to the war? Peace would have brought the Grand Plan to a juddering halt, and with the support of both the Republic and the Separatists the Jedi could undermine Dooku's position and neutralise him.

 

Yes of course the Jedi weren't aware of the full extent of the Grand Plan but they must have realised that the Separatists and the Sith are not in this case one in the same, they can be separated. The Separatists only pursued war at Dooku's lead, in reality they just want independence - peace was therefore in the Jedi's best interests.

Peace was never an option with Dooku leading the charge, they tried, every time he initiated a plot, like the assassination of Mina Bonteri to keep the War going.

[Beniboybling]

Except they all clearly obeyed the Dark Lord seemingly in the shadows down to a T and they talked pretty extensively about being the dominant power in the universe, what with their super droid armies and all of that.

This is not the case. The Separatist Council led by Dooku wanted the complete destruction of the Republic. But they only represent a fraction of the Confederacy's interests. The majority of its members simply wanted independence from the Republic, which the Republic refused to give them, and so they resorted to war to force them to do so. However unlike the Republic the Separatists and not dominated and controlled by corporations.

 

Negotiating peace therefore was possible and doing so would undermine the Dooku's position and leave him vulnerable. However the Jedi seem to have forgotten that their war is with the Sith, not the Separatists.

 

P.S. That said towards the end of the war the Separatist Council were more interested in peace rather than the total annihilation of the Republic. With their own people against them I'm sure they could have been persuaded.

[Beniboybling]

Peace was never an option with Dooku leading the charge, they tried, every time he initiated a plot, like the assassination of Mina Bonteri to keep the War going.

That was Padme acting on her own intiative if I recall, not the Jedi - you know the one who actually realises that peace is the best option - and if I recall correctly Anakin strongly opposed her actions. Anyway, yes, like I said its very difficult, but the Jedi didn't even make a proper effort. Some peacekeepers they turned out to be.

[ImmortalLowlife]

The Jedi never enslaved the Clones. They Jedi actually treated the Clones better than the vast majority of the Republic, viewing them as more than just tools for war. The SITH ordered the creation of the Clone Army using a Jedi's identity, the REPUBLIC (under the influence of the Sith) decided to use them to fight the Clone Wars, the JEDI SERVE the Republic, thus they fought alongside the clones. In doing so they (the Jedi) actually cared about their (the Clones) deaths and well being, contrary to many of the naturally born officers of the Republic, who didn't mind sacrificing more clones if it got them their objectives faster.

 

The only person to ever come close to claiming that the Jedi enslaved the clones was Karen Traviss, She Who Destroys Verisimilitude, and she is to be ignored with extreme prejudice.

 

 

Sugar coat it however you want, but the bottom line is the Jedi did condone slavery. Just saying "we'll treat em good" don't mean a damn thing. Cause when it's all said & done, U still using a person who had no choice to fight a war. It doesn't matter if they personally went & signed for the clones, or just led em into battle. The Jedi should have flat out refused to use clones & that is where they made the mistake. The entire order took a step toward the dark side because of this.

 

 

And this is the opinion of the descendant of a slave.

[StarSquirrel]

I admittedly have never read a straight up clone perspective book other than the parts of "Dark Lord: Rise of Darth Vader" and the "Revenge of the Sith" novel, but the fact is the Jedi were sworn to the Republic which is why they joined the war: to protect it. It was pretty clear they didn't agree with the war itself or using the clones, but they were there so they used them.

This right here is you admitting both that your knowledge of the topic is extremely poor (heck just watching the Clone Wars TV show shows how most clones weren't mandalorians, were individuals, and dislike the Republic/ their role in life). The quoted paragraph also makes the exact point we've been making, the Jedi used a slave army out of convenience. How much they agreed with the war is pointless, actions speak louder than words and their actions where to use slaves to fight their war instead of volunteers or a draft.

 

Many clones actually straight up told jedi that they (the clones) were worthless/cannon fodder and the jedi said "not to me" and proceeded to keep them in service as cannon fodder.

[MasqureMan]

This right here is you admitting both that your knowledge of the topic is extremely poor (heck just watching the Clone Wars TV show shows how most clones weren't mandalorians, were individuals, and dislike the Republic/ their role in life). The quoted paragraph also makes the exact point we've been making, the Jedi used a slave army out of convenience. How much they agreed with the war is pointless, actions speak louder than words and their actions where to use slaves to fight their war instead of volunteers or a draft.

 

Many clones actually straight up told jedi that they (the clones) were worthless/cannon fodder and the jedi said "not to me" and proceeded to keep them in service as cannon fodder.

 

They did not use it out of convenience, they used it out of desperation. I'm not really going to spend anymore time debating it, it's pretty clear you're incapable of looking at the situation from both sides. Here's my last attempt: One side is that the Jedi did not act fully according to their ideals, but out of deperation and in an attempt to preserve the Republic and many lives, they use the clones for the war. On the other side, Sidious is politically manipulating the Senate, the Jedi, and the Republic as a whole to make sure the war goes how he wants it to go, he's controlling both sides of the conflict, and he's evil AF.

 

The clones may have suffered, but everyone (EXCEPT SIDIOUS) did. So, if you want to blame anyone, you know who to blame. If you want to be manipulated by a fictional character though and continue to blame the people who he would want you to blame, go right ahead.

 

Even if YOU see it as the Jedi using the clones, Sidious used everyone. The Jedi, his own apprentices, the Senate, the Republic, the Clones, the Seperatists, the droid army, all of it. ITT there's a strong attempt to just spit on the Jedi while they're down like "No, they didn't stick to their ideals, haha silly Jedi they got what they deserved". Like, alright, if this is the party you throw over the Jedi being hypocrites, what do you do in real life when someone makes a mistake? Sorry to say it in a Star Wars conversation, but someone needs to grow up.

Edited July 26, 2013 by MasqureMan